I agree. There are groups that either love or hate the homunculus or alchemist's satchel. The original alchemist's satchel offered a variety of alchemical formulas for the alchemist to choose from. These different formulas gave the alchemist a wide range of potential abilities. But the formulas were severely lacking.
D&D already has a class that deals with the Fullmetal aspect, that would be the Transmutation Wizard. While the Transmutation Wizard didn't have access to healing spells or abilities, the did have abilities that addressed transmuting the different elements.
Now I agree the 2017 Artificer UA's Alchemist was extremely broken. The only damage dealing formulas available to the Alchemist was Alchemical Acid and Fire. The remaining formulas were what I consider support based formulas. I always believed that the Alchemical formulas should have been rebuilt and expanded.
I never liked the 2019 Artificer UA's Alchemist. It wasn't just the homunculus I didn't care for, it was the entire subclass. The spell list, alchemical mastery, and chemical savant features merely expanded upon the Alchemist's spellcasting ability while giving it a pet (which I didn't care for). At least with the alchemical formulas of the original alchemist were "original" ideas. The player didn't need to be told to describe pulling alchemical components from their alchemist's satchel. Players were already doing that.
I understand that there are those that liked the homunculus, I will concede that it could be useful (even though I don't like it). But you have to agree that they alchemist's spell list, and the alchemical mastery and chemical savant features were a waste.
My disappointment in the 2017 UA Alchemist subclass lead be to me creatie a modified version of it.
Here is a list of the alchemical formulas from the original 2017 Artificer UA.....
Alchemical Acid
Alchemical Fire
Healing Draught
Smoke Stick
Swift Step Draught
Tanglefoot Bag
Thunderstone
Now here is a list of the formulas for my revamped Alchemist.
Alchemical Acid
Alchemical Cold
Alchemical Fire
Alchemical Lightning
Healing Draught
Smoke Stick
Swift Step Draught
Tanglefoot Bag
Thunderstone
Now the Smoke Stick, Swift Step Draught, and Tanglefoot Bag formulas are the same as described in the 2017 Artificer UA. However, the remaining formulas were either modified or brand new. Those modified and brand new formulas I feel offer more damage dealing options than the original 2017 UA Alchemist and are better than the 2019 UA Alchemist's expanded spellcasting.
I always felt that if you were going to create a Boots of Winding Path infusion, then you needed to be proficient with Cobblers tools., a Many-Handed Pouch, Leatherworker's tools, and etc., etc, etc.
I also felt that if the player is using their infusion as a spellcasting focus, the spells they cast with that infusion should be limited. Like the Boots of Winding Path should only be able to cast movement based spells and not be able to cast spells like Faerie Fire, Rope Trick, and Dispel Magic (to name a few).
Sorry, Ophid. Bit of a trigger issue, I suppose. The whole chemical-flinging monkey-man pseudobabble science dunce trope is one I've dealt with in the past, in the hands of people who somehow weren't even talented enough to pull off Lame Caricature of Character, as any such 'character' basically has to be.
The trope may be a fondly cherished comedic fallback for some, but for me it's nothing but a bothersome distraction. The 2019 version could be turned into Science Poo Flinger with the help of a regular satchel, the Acid Splash spell, and ninety seconds with a leafblower pre-session to get your hair looking right, but I don't get to turn the 2017 Poo Flinger back into my slick, talented field chemist and savvy adventurer.
Super frustrating, especially since it's already confirmed that the homunculus is an Infusion now and thus won't have any alchemical tie-ins. That and I actually liked the Chemical Savant features. Super nichey, yeah, but access to a stack of Lesser Restorations was quite nice, and fit with the whole Savvy Intelligent Adventurer thing. One Greater Restoration per day at higher levels also solves a lot of problems without having to eat diamonds the party otherwise needs for resurrections.
Could've used some adjustment, sure. But getting rid of the Alchemist subclass features entirely in exchange for giving people back the Magic Santa Sack of Random Reagents is just...didn't people hate Wild Magic sorcerers for a reason?
I think it comes down to WotC based the alchemist off IRL alchemical lore which is all about transmutation, homunculi, etc. What alotof D&D players wanted though is the fantasy sterotype of an alchemist which is the character who can make potions especially healing potions. However I would not jump to any conclusions until we get closer to release. Don't forget we will not know anything until Avernus has released as all the spoilers and marketing is directed at that until its release.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Loex - A Lizardfolk Lvl 4/6/4 Hexblade Profane Blood Hunter/ Battlesmith Artificer/ Cleric of the Forge Arborea - A Warforged Lvl 1 Hexblade Warlock
First of all, how dare you besmirch the name of my totally original and 100% unique Artificer, Muju Juju, who most certainly is NOT a monkey who flings poo!
In seriousness though, that's actually one of the complaints I had about this version of the Alchemist over the previous version, the fact that they so obviously steer you into using acid and poison for your offensive capabilities. Say what you will about the satchel, at least it let you fling fire as well as acid! Now if only it had let me fling cryogenic fluid as well (technically it did, but what they gave us was lameEDIT: scratch that, apparently I'm talking crazy because I could have sworn there were at least two alchemical options that apparently don't exist...)
Another general complaint I had was they were billing the Artificer as a class you could fluff up however you want, when the reality is you can fluff up anything however you want to already, or at least you SHOULD be able to. Want an arcane caster with a religious flavor? Say that your wand is carved from a sacred oak, or that your crystal orb has the fingerbone of a saint inside it. How about one with a technological bent? Make your wand a weird tuning fork, or your crystal orb is part of a mechanical gauntlet. There, I just added cool fluff to my arcane caster, and I could probably come up with more if I thought about it. I just don't buy the argument that this is acceptable as a class feature, this is something people should be doing ANYWAY!
Now, actually looking at the Homunculus, what does it do? It...spits acid. Great. Whoop-de-do. What else does it do? Give advantage on ability checks? I can't say that excites me, but hey, it does have some use so I shouldn't complain, though I will say I would have preferred an actual numeric increase instead of advantage. What else, it gives temporary hitpoints? That's okay I guess, not gonna complain about that. Oh, and I nearly forgot, it...makes people float? What am I running here, an alchemist or Pennywise the Clown? Honestly, if it did something else instead of that last part like deliver a limited selection of spells or administer potions without using your action, I probably would have liked it better, but as it is I just can't bring myself to say that I like it.
EDIT: I apologize if any of that comes off as a rant. Apparently, these are things that trigger me as well, lol.
@Marine2874 Honestly, I never liked the idea of using infusions as a spellcasting focus. I didn't include that in my feedback, but I felt that it was stretching things quite a bit.
I love the idea of this class. The alchemist doesn't feel very... alchemist. When do they usually revisit these UA classes?
Artificer has been done in UA once in 2017 and now once again in 2019, but basically the "final" version is going to be released in a few months with the next Eberron book.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
What would be nice is if they fleshed out the tool proficiencies in the Eberron book like they did in Xanathar's Guide. That way, you get value out of all the tool proficiences you can hoard with the class. It would also be nice IMO if the class grants tool expertise at the "do-nothing" levels (or increasing the number of items you can attune to, or both).
You are correct @Mezzurah, the powers that be specifically told us that we should fluff up our descriptions of our actions for the Artificer. Some that players have been already doing. So I am curious as to why they specifically told us to use fluff for the Artificer.
Now, I have never been a fan of the homunculus. To me it was a replacement for the mechanical servant in the 2017 Artificer UA (except only for the Alchemist) and I didn't care for that either. @Yurei1453 has a real dislike for the alchemist's satchel because he imagines the Alchemist as a acid poo flinging monkey with Doc Brown hair. But yet, the 2019 Artificer Alchemist UA has it's own pet monkey (the homunculus) that throws acid poo. Let's not forget that the 2019 Alchemist received a damage boost for poison and ACID, and a damage reduction for poison and ACID. So I don't understand his dislike for the 2017 Alchemist but at the same time why he likes the 2019 Alchemist who has access to more acid related content.
In regards to infusions, I personally don't like them as they take away from actual crafting. I also disliked the fact that they can be used as a spellcasting focus. To me that is a cheat because they can basically use a magic item as a spellcasting focus. But, I believe that if an infusion is allowed to used them as a spellcasting focus, then I feel they should be limited which spells an infusion can cast. As I mentioned in a previous post... movement spells should only be cast with infusions that are footwear or a wand.
Just as a note, because Marine loves telling me I'm wrong I have a few fortuitously timed minutes at work:
There's a difference, at least in my mind, between being a solvent-sniffing goober whose only purpose in existence is to throw random chemicals at stuff and hope for the best and being a clever, well-practiced weaver and artisan of the arcane who can create an artificial life form capable of protecting itself with caustic venom while bolstering allies and serving the artificer's will as a scout and assistant, while that artificer herself exercises options more interesting and strategic than digging both fists into the Bag of Wild Chemistry and hoping the explosions happen Over There instead of Right Here.
Heh, but hey. Everybody tells me it's okay to be wrong, so cool for me, ryte?
Wait, the things you pulled out of the 2017 Alchemist's Satchel weren't randomized, were they?
Edit: No, I just looked and it was under the control of the Alchemist. Actually now that I went back and looked at it again, I'm kind of a fan of the Satchel.
Yes there is a different between a person who combines raw components together to produce chemical reactions of varying degree and a wannabe Dr. Frankenstein creating a creature that is a useful as a poopy flavored lolipop. The 2019 Alchemist is nothing but a spellcaster that specializes in acid. Your description of the 2017 Alchemist being nothing but someone that throws vials of acid is grossly incorrect. Only one formula from the 2017 Alchemist had to do with acid and they did not have access to direct damaging spells. The 2017 Alchemist also chose which alchemical formula they pulled from their satchel. There is nothing in the description of the Alchemist's Satchel that says anything about randomly pulling a alchemical formulas. Just to prove that fact, here is exactly what is said.
Alchemist’s Satchel - At 1st level, you craft an Alchemist’s Satchel, a bag of reagents that you use to create a variety of concoctions. The bag and its contents are both magical, and this magic allows you to pull out exactly the right materials you need for your Alchemical Formula options, described below. After you use one of those options, the bag reclaims the materials. If you lose this satchel, you can create a new one over the course of three days of work (eight hours each day) by expending 100 gp worth of leather, glass, and other raw materials.
Also, the descriptions of the alchemical formulas all started with either... As an action, you can reach into your Alchemist’s Satchel, pull out a vial, as an action, you can reach into your Alchemist’s Satchel and pull out a stick, as an action, you can reach into your Alchemist’s Satchel and pull out a bag, or as an action, you can reach into your Alchemist’s Satchel and pull out a crystalline shard.
So once again, there was nothing in any descriptions that talked about randomly pulling an alchemical formulas from the alchemist's satchel.
Now the 2019 Alchemist was given access to direct damaging spells to include the cantrip ACID SPLASH and the 2nd level spell MELF'S ACID ARROW. Their pet dealt ACID damage, their alchemical mastery feature boosted the damage of their ACID spells and their chemical savant feature gave them resistance to ACID damage.
So please tell me how the single alchemical formula from the 2017 Alchemist made the entire subclass all about ACID.
Between the "Arcane Firearm" and the Satchel, it's sounding like Wizards is basically reverting the 2019 design back to the original 2017 format, save with infusions rather than permanent items. Sad, but I'd brace for it. Definitely save your 2019 UA character sheet as a homebrew reference for later, mebbe make a few level 20 spares as templates.
I agree. There are groups that either love or hate the homunculus or alchemist's satchel. The original alchemist's satchel offered a variety of alchemical formulas for the alchemist to choose from. These different formulas gave the alchemist a wide range of potential abilities. But the formulas were severely lacking.
D&D already has a class that deals with the Fullmetal aspect, that would be the Transmutation Wizard. While the Transmutation Wizard didn't have access to healing spells or abilities, the did have abilities that addressed transmuting the different elements.
Now I agree the 2017 Artificer UA's Alchemist was extremely broken. The only damage dealing formulas available to the Alchemist was Alchemical Acid and Fire. The remaining formulas were what I consider support based formulas. I always believed that the Alchemical formulas should have been rebuilt and expanded.
I never liked the 2019 Artificer UA's Alchemist. It wasn't just the homunculus I didn't care for, it was the entire subclass. The spell list, alchemical mastery, and chemical savant features merely expanded upon the Alchemist's spellcasting ability while giving it a pet (which I didn't care for). At least with the alchemical formulas of the original alchemist were "original" ideas. The player didn't need to be told to describe pulling alchemical components from their alchemist's satchel. Players were already doing that.
I understand that there are those that liked the homunculus, I will concede that it could be useful (even though I don't like it). But you have to agree that they alchemist's spell list, and the alchemical mastery and chemical savant features were a waste.
My disappointment in the 2017 UA Alchemist subclass lead be to me creatie a modified version of it.
Here is a list of the alchemical formulas from the original 2017 Artificer UA.....
Now here is a list of the formulas for my revamped Alchemist.
Now the Smoke Stick, Swift Step Draught, and Tanglefoot Bag formulas are the same as described in the 2017 Artificer UA. However, the remaining formulas were either modified or brand new. Those modified and brand new formulas I feel offer more damage dealing options than the original 2017 UA Alchemist and are better than the 2019 UA Alchemist's expanded spellcasting.
I always felt that if you were going to create a Boots of Winding Path infusion, then you needed to be proficient with Cobblers tools., a Many-Handed Pouch, Leatherworker's tools, and etc., etc, etc.
I also felt that if the player is using their infusion as a spellcasting focus, the spells they cast with that infusion should be limited. Like the Boots of Winding Path should only be able to cast movement based spells and not be able to cast spells like Faerie Fire, Rope Trick, and Dispel Magic (to name a few).
Sorry, Ophid. Bit of a trigger issue, I suppose. The whole chemical-flinging monkey-man pseudobabble science dunce trope is one I've dealt with in the past, in the hands of people who somehow weren't even talented enough to pull off Lame Caricature of Character, as any such 'character' basically has to be.
The trope may be a fondly cherished comedic fallback for some, but for me it's nothing but a bothersome distraction. The 2019 version could be turned into Science Poo Flinger with the help of a regular satchel, the Acid Splash spell, and ninety seconds with a leafblower pre-session to get your hair looking right, but I don't get to turn the 2017 Poo Flinger back into my slick, talented field chemist and savvy adventurer.
Super frustrating, especially since it's already confirmed that the homunculus is an Infusion now and thus won't have any alchemical tie-ins. That and I actually liked the Chemical Savant features. Super nichey, yeah, but access to a stack of Lesser Restorations was quite nice, and fit with the whole Savvy Intelligent Adventurer thing. One Greater Restoration per day at higher levels also solves a lot of problems without having to eat diamonds the party otherwise needs for resurrections.
Could've used some adjustment, sure. But getting rid of the Alchemist subclass features entirely in exchange for giving people back the Magic Santa Sack of Random Reagents is just...didn't people hate Wild Magic sorcerers for a reason?
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I think it comes down to WotC based the alchemist off IRL alchemical lore which is all about transmutation, homunculi, etc. What alotof D&D players wanted though is the fantasy sterotype of an alchemist which is the character who can make potions especially healing potions. However I would not jump to any conclusions until we get closer to release. Don't forget we will not know anything until Avernus has released as all the spoilers and marketing is directed at that until its release.
Loex - A Lizardfolk Lvl 4/6/4 Hexblade Profane Blood Hunter/ Battlesmith Artificer/ Cleric of the Forge
Arborea - A Warforged Lvl 1 Hexblade Warlock
DM - "Malign Intelligence"
First of all, how dare you besmirch the name of my totally original and 100% unique Artificer, Muju Juju, who most certainly is NOT a monkey who flings poo!
In seriousness though, that's actually one of the complaints I had about this version of the Alchemist over the previous version, the fact that they so obviously steer you into using acid and poison for your offensive capabilities. Say what you will about the satchel, at least it let you fling fire as well as acid! Now if only it had let me fling cryogenic fluid as well (
technically it did, but what they gave us was lameEDIT: scratch that, apparently I'm talking crazy because I could have sworn there were at least two alchemical options that apparently don't exist...)Another general complaint I had was they were billing the Artificer as a class you could fluff up however you want, when the reality is you can fluff up anything however you want to already, or at least you SHOULD be able to. Want an arcane caster with a religious flavor? Say that your wand is carved from a sacred oak, or that your crystal orb has the fingerbone of a saint inside it. How about one with a technological bent? Make your wand a weird tuning fork, or your crystal orb is part of a mechanical gauntlet. There, I just added cool fluff to my arcane caster, and I could probably come up with more if I thought about it. I just don't buy the argument that this is acceptable as a class feature, this is something people should be doing ANYWAY!
Now, actually looking at the Homunculus, what does it do? It...spits acid. Great. Whoop-de-do. What else does it do? Give advantage on ability checks? I can't say that excites me, but hey, it does have some use so I shouldn't complain, though I will say I would have preferred an actual numeric increase instead of advantage. What else, it gives temporary hitpoints? That's okay I guess, not gonna complain about that. Oh, and I nearly forgot, it...makes people float? What am I running here, an alchemist or Pennywise the Clown? Honestly, if it did something else instead of that last part like deliver a limited selection of spells or administer potions without using your action, I probably would have liked it better, but as it is I just can't bring myself to say that I like it.
EDIT: I apologize if any of that comes off as a rant. Apparently, these are things that trigger me as well, lol.
Also, I'm pretty sure the biggest reason people hate Wild Magic is it's tendency to randomly cast Fireball in the middle of the party.
@Marine2874 Honestly, I never liked the idea of using infusions as a spellcasting focus. I didn't include that in my feedback, but I felt that it was stretching things quite a bit.
I love the idea of this class. The alchemist doesn't feel very... alchemist. When do they usually revisit these UA classes?
Artificer has been done in UA once in 2017 and now once again in 2019, but basically the "final" version is going to be released in a few months with the next Eberron book.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
What would be nice is if they fleshed out the tool proficiencies in the Eberron book like they did in Xanathar's Guide. That way, you get value out of all the tool proficiences you can hoard with the class. It would also be nice IMO if the class grants tool expertise at the "do-nothing" levels (or increasing the number of items you can attune to, or both).
You are correct, the Artificer Alchemist will be based upon what WotC wants it to be. Let's not forget that modern day alchemy is actually chemistry.
You are correct @Mezzurah, the powers that be specifically told us that we should fluff up our descriptions of our actions for the Artificer. Some that players have been already doing. So I am curious as to why they specifically told us to use fluff for the Artificer.
Now, I have never been a fan of the homunculus. To me it was a replacement for the mechanical servant in the 2017 Artificer UA (except only for the Alchemist) and I didn't care for that either. @Yurei1453 has a real dislike for the alchemist's satchel because he imagines the Alchemist as a acid poo flinging monkey with Doc Brown hair. But yet, the 2019 Artificer Alchemist UA has it's own pet monkey (the homunculus) that throws acid poo. Let's not forget that the 2019 Alchemist received a damage boost for poison and ACID, and a damage reduction for poison and ACID. So I don't understand his dislike for the 2017 Alchemist but at the same time why he likes the 2019 Alchemist who has access to more acid related content.
In regards to infusions, I personally don't like them as they take away from actual crafting. I also disliked the fact that they can be used as a spellcasting focus. To me that is a cheat because they can basically use a magic item as a spellcasting focus. But, I believe that if an infusion is allowed to used them as a spellcasting focus, then I feel they should be limited which spells an infusion can cast. As I mentioned in a previous post... movement spells should only be cast with infusions that are footwear or a wand.
Just as a note, because
Marine loves telling me I'm wrongI have a few fortuitously timed minutes at work:There's a difference, at least in my mind, between being a solvent-sniffing goober whose only purpose in existence is to throw random chemicals at stuff and hope for the best and being a clever, well-practiced weaver and artisan of the arcane who can create an artificial life form capable of protecting itself with caustic venom while bolstering allies and serving the artificer's will as a scout and assistant, while that artificer herself exercises options more interesting and strategic than digging both fists into the Bag of Wild Chemistry and hoping the explosions happen Over There instead of Right Here.
Heh, but hey. Everybody tells me it's okay to be wrong, so cool for me, ryte?
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
Wait, the things you pulled out of the 2017 Alchemist's Satchel weren't randomized, were they?
Edit: No, I just looked and it was under the control of the Alchemist. Actually now that I went back and looked at it again, I'm kind of a fan of the Satchel.
Reminds me a bit of Honey Lemon, from Big Hero 6
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
@Yurei1453
Yes there is a different between a person who combines raw components together to produce chemical reactions of varying degree and a wannabe Dr. Frankenstein creating a creature that is a useful as a poopy flavored lolipop. The 2019 Alchemist is nothing but a spellcaster that specializes in acid. Your description of the 2017 Alchemist being nothing but someone that throws vials of acid is grossly incorrect. Only one formula from the 2017 Alchemist had to do with acid and they did not have access to direct damaging spells. The 2017 Alchemist also chose which alchemical formula they pulled from their satchel. There is nothing in the description of the Alchemist's Satchel that says anything about randomly pulling a alchemical formulas. Just to prove that fact, here is exactly what is said.
Alchemist’s Satchel - At 1st level, you craft an Alchemist’s Satchel, a bag of reagents that you use to create a variety of concoctions. The bag and its contents are both magical, and this magic allows you to pull out exactly the right materials you need for your Alchemical Formula options, described below. After you use one of those options, the bag reclaims the materials. If you lose this satchel, you can create a new one over the course of three days of work (eight hours each day) by expending 100 gp worth of leather, glass, and other raw materials.
Also, the descriptions of the alchemical formulas all started with either... As an action, you can reach into your Alchemist’s Satchel, pull out a vial, as an action, you can reach into your Alchemist’s Satchel and pull out a stick, as an action, you can reach into your Alchemist’s Satchel and pull out a bag, or as an action, you can reach into your Alchemist’s Satchel and pull out a crystalline shard.
So once again, there was nothing in any descriptions that talked about randomly pulling an alchemical formulas from the alchemist's satchel.
Now the 2019 Alchemist was given access to direct damaging spells to include the cantrip ACID SPLASH and the 2nd level spell MELF'S ACID ARROW. Their pet dealt ACID damage, their alchemical mastery feature boosted the damage of their ACID spells and their chemical savant feature gave them resistance to ACID damage.
So please tell me how the single alchemical formula from the 2017 Alchemist made the entire subclass all about ACID.
I think maybe the infighting about this is .. less than helpful?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Meanwhile, I'm sitting here wondering if my artillerist will be able to be a wandslinger, or if he'll be stuck using enchanted crossbows.
They did say artillerist will be getting arcane firearms. in the video I linked above.
Loex - A Lizardfolk Lvl 4/6/4 Hexblade Profane Blood Hunter/ Battlesmith Artificer/ Cleric of the Forge
Arborea - A Warforged Lvl 1 Hexblade Warlock
DM - "Malign Intelligence"
That's why I'm worried about it. I'm hoping Wand Prototype also made the cut.
Between the "Arcane Firearm" and the Satchel, it's sounding like Wizards is basically reverting the 2019 design back to the original 2017 format, save with infusions rather than permanent items. Sad, but I'd brace for it. Definitely save your 2019 UA character sheet as a homebrew reference for later, mebbe make a few level 20 spares as templates.
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!