There are 5 confirmed sources that work at WotC. The sources were confirmed through video calls and LinkedIn. Vetted by ~5 different people one of whom is Linda Codega, the journalist who broke the story and has been organizing and helping the leakers. Treantmonk was vocal about not trusting DnDShorts(after his blunder) so, now Treantmonk has verified the 5 sources. The script read in the video was drafted by lawyers along with the 5 leak sources. Video made and sent to the 5 sources to confirm again these are their words before posting to us.
Yep and it doesn't matter what side your on (to the very few people here willing to defend a corporation) no matter what the outcome of the OGL or whatever, Dndbeyond has a terminal illness and it's time is coming.
Yep and it doesn't matter what side your on (to the very few people here willing to defend a corporation) no matter what the outcome of the OGL or whatever, Dndbeyond has a terminal illness and it's time is coming.
I don't think that even D&D Shorts would say that D&D Beyond is ending....my reaction to the video below:
1) If any of this is accurate, Chris Cao seems like a thoroughly reprehensible manager, but unfortunately all too common for executives in the business world.
2) He may not like D&D Beyond, but most of the actual quotes infer that the intent of his new VTT program is to be separate from it, not added to it or (and this is the important part) replacing it. I say this because one, a quote indicated that he though people should pay more for the subscription tiers (Why would he care if he planned to shut it down anyway?), and two, multiple quotes and D&Dshorts own opinion said that this could be a separate program that would allow what the D&DBeyond team said regarding $30 subscriptions on D&D Beyond to be true, and that WotC is planning a $30 monthly subscription for the VTT program
3) Assuming the imagery was from the program, it looks awful, and seems like it would not allow for any sort of custom content, so it would wind up being useless for any DM or group that uses homebrew settings, campaigns, or other items. it might be fine for droughts between groups or players without a group, but it won't have a lot of overlap with a large portion of the existing fanbase.
4) Unless Chris Cao is an idiot of the highest measure, there is no way he would cancel or end D&D Beyond as a service until his vision for the VTT program comes to fruition and they understand the revenue potential. The fact is, they could shelve the entirety of future D&D Beyond development, and leave it running as a site, and still have a lot of subscribers keep their subscription and pay for things, because at the end of the day it is a fairly decent product. Killing and removing the site would 1) severely anger a large portion of an already angry fanbase and end a fairly regular (if not huge) stream of income for the brand. If D&D is making 150M annually in revenue, that is roughly 12.5M per month. Assuming the 40K deleted subscribers was true, and lets say they averaged $4 / month apiece, then that was a 160K hit per month lost in two days. Not huge, but enough to make them take a step back. I would guess the total revenue from D&D Beyond, between subscriptions, Compendium Content, and other purchases is a fairly decent portion of their income (and worth the 143M they paid for it), and they will not give that up unless they could guarantee being able to replace it quickly.
So, in summary, I don't think that this means that D&D Beyond is in danger of going away, though if you want a hint of how that might look, you will look to see if OneD&D functionality comes to the site. If it does, it's probably staying, if it doesn't, Its probably going to get shelved or future development halted
I’ve spent a lot of money on D&D Beyond (legendary bundle and master tier for years) and introduced 8 of my friends who were happy on pdf’s and paper notes to D&DB too. Now I’m just so sad. It felt like I was investing in a company making the best D&D toolset anyone had ever see, and even had ethical business practices for the most part (sharing content, homebrew API). This video is just so horrible.
Please, WotC/Hasbro, just stop all of this. You make a ton of money from us already and if you make your VTT as good as it sounded, it will make a heck of a lot more. Update the OGL if you need to combat hate but make it some sort of 3rd party comity’s decision and contestable in court. But make that and making the document TRUELY irrevocable the only changes. I doubt people would do anything but praise you for that.
Honestly, the leaks smell somewhat of office politics of people who want to eliminate Chris Cao. It's certainly possible that he is in fact a toxic person, but people's motivations for leaking are rarely entirely altruistic.
As far as double-checking by lawyers goes, that just means they think they can't get (successfully) sued for libel, which is not a super high bar to meet.
Some skepticism I think is healthy, I agree on that point, but as a whole, the health and future of D&D is at stake here and I think as long as the community keeps up the pressure, I think we can expect positive change (I hope). The community has already had a lot of positive effects on Hasbro/Wizards Of the Coast/DnDBeyond response, so what we are doing is working.
I do think at some point we will have to accept a compromise of some sort, but at this stage the OGL and really the general treatment and plan for D&D is still pretty terrible and we have a long way to go before I think the community will turn about and support D&D's future.
Whatever the end result is, it can't be based on the situation/plan as is right now. Just my personal observation of the community at this stage, but I just don't think we are in compromise mode yet.
Honestly, the leaks smell somewhat of office politics of people who want to eliminate Chris Cao. It's certainly possible that he is in fact a toxic person, but people's motivations for leaking are rarely entirely altruistic.
As far as double-checking by lawyers goes, that just means they think they can't get (successfully) sued for libel, which is not a super high bar to meet.
ah yes, by all means lets give the suits the benifit of the doubt again.. Like OGL 1.1 wasn't a thing that clearly points to this being true.
The double checking I am referring to was before publishing DnDShorts sent his video to the WotC leakers to make sure he wasn't misinterpreting what the leakers were saying. Basically so he didn't have another blunder and the community is now certain this is exactly what the WotC leakers are trying to tell us.
ah yes, by all means lets give the suits the benifit of the doubt again.. Like OGL 1.1 wasn't a thing that clearly points to this being true.
Not really, no. The core problem with the leaks is the claim that Chris Cao was surprised by the acquisition of DDB. If true, what that tells us is that he's not the one making the decisions. Which means that his bad ideas only matter if the person actually making the decisions listens to them.
Yep and it doesn't matter what side your on (to the very few people here willing to defend a corporation) no matter what the outcome of the OGL or whatever, Dndbeyond has a terminal illness and it's time is coming.
If there's a malign tumor, you cut it out. If there's a dying corpse, you might still be able to use some of the organs. So no need to write off DnDBeyond just yet. Also, if the new info coming out is anything to go by, making sure DnDBeyond gets through this safely is also a priority.
In regards to DnDShorts, kudos on getting it properly verified. I had all but written him off, but I may have been too harsh. He seems very earnest and careful about presenting his information as much as-is as possible.
As for the manager and the CEO, are we even able to discuss them here? The forum rules stipulate that no "naming and shaming" of individuals is allowed and much as I believe we're really getting close to the root of the problem here, we also can't risk having a Boston bomber Reddit moment..
I do think at some point we will have to accept a compromise of some sort, but at this stage the OGL and really the general treatment and plan for D&D is still pretty terrible and we have a long way to go before I think the community will turn about and support D&D's future.
[SNIP]
Actually, I am feeling sort of relieved about this for the first time since this mess started. If the new current leaks are true, then a victory for everyone is actually possible instead of everyone just losing variable amounts.
The problematic people can be removed and WotC can then take a stand for the original OGL or something equivalent to that. This leaves us with the status quo where WotC is also healthier in terms of commitment to the hobby.
In that scenario, I would probably have to resub, which I didn't even figure was an option at this point.
Prior to DnD Short's video, it seemed to me that users here had produced harrassment content against DnD Shorts with the likes of assumptions regarding such as a lack of veracity in his current content.
I now worry that DnD Shorts may have gone too far in sharing specific quotes from people whose jobs could be threatened and am yet to hear confirmation that the sharing of the actual quotes was sanctioned.
If DnD Shorts has shared specific content without the leakers' approval then that's on him. However, if he's been pushed to this extent because of bad-mouthing in the community then I think that those people in the community would share responsibility. (Let's all measure our words and restrain our spins).
DnD Shorts is basically saying "I'm now sharing this and then I'm out." It seems strange to me that a content creator would take this approach.
Prior to DnD Short's video, it seemed to me that users here had produced harrassment content against DnD Shorts with the likes of assumptions regarding such as a lack of veracity in his current content.
I now worry that DnD Shorts may have gone too far in sharing specific quotes from people whose jobs could be threatened and am yet to hear confirmation that the sharing of the actual quotes was sanctioned.
If DnD Shorts has shared specific content without the leakers' approval then that's on him. However, if he's been pushed to this extent because of bad-mouthing in the community then I think that those people in the community would share responsibility. (Let's all measure our words and restrain our spins).
DnD Shorts is basically saying "I'm now sharing this and then I'm out." It seems strange to me that a content creator would take this approach.
I'm not sure what you're saying. All I can go on is what's been said here, but it seems like you're trying to say that because we didn't believe him, he felt forced to reveal potentially identifying information about his sources and that that makes it our fault, and that doesn't jive with what I've seen.
I've not seen much in the way of spin or bad-mouthing here, at least. From what I've seen, he made a claim that WotC were going to release a $30/month subscription that was eerily similar to a confessed fake released a few months ago. If he couldn't ethically back up what he was saying with something solid, then he didn't have to make any claim at all. My healthy skepticism does not need to, nor should, be sacrificed on the altar of protecting his revenue stream.
He should have reviewed what he could and could not safely reveal, then assessed whether he should put the claim out there based on what he could use and what how that would affect the credibility of the claim and his own credibility. If it weren't enough, then just don't make the video. Or frame it as such that it doesn't damage his own credibility. I refuse to accept that me not accepting his word as gospel truth just because he said it bears any responsibility for his wreckless actions (if any). He gambled his credibility and therefore revenue to garner views and more revenue, not me.
I've yet to see anything on this site that wasn't simply healthy skepticism. Was it universally accepted? No, there was some "hey, that looks dubiously like a known fake from last year", but that's what healthy skepticism looks like. It's his fault if he's compromised people's jobs in his pursuit of views.
Perhaps you've seen something that I haven't, perhaps by "here" you're referring to Twitter or Reddit or something that I don't use, but I'm not seeing anything that makes me lay any blame in this forum.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
It's REAL and SCRIPTED though. Surely that's close enough
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Wasn't D&D Shorts the one who was wrong about D&D Beyond raising subscriptions? Wasn't D&D Shorts the one who was wrong about Wizards not listening to their feedback? Wasn't D&D Shorts the one who made ridiculous statements about your Open Game License being revoked for jaywalking?
Why are we listening to this guy? Basically every insider leak he spread recently has been wrong. He might have been trustworthy once, but he certainly isn't now. You say 5 people verified all his sources, without providing any links or actual facts.
Where did Linda Codega say that D&D Shorts sources were correct? I dunno. I haven't found anything she said that sounded remotely like that.
Treantmonk did not independently confirm this at all. He merely stated that this video was one that us D&D fans might want to watch.
The executives at Wizards and Hasbro aren't idiots. Some of you may believe they're evil jerks, but I highly doubt they would actively make moves that would completely destroy their profit. And again, something isn't true just because D&D Shorts said it was. At this point in time, I think anyone who believes that his insider sources are trustworthy is actively deceiving themself.
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Wasn't D&D Shorts the one who was wrong about D&D Beyond raising subscriptions? Wasn't D&D Shorts the one who was wrong about Wizards not listening to their feedback? Wasn't D&D Shorts the one who made ridiculous statements about your Open Game License being revoked for jaywalking?
Why are we listening to this guy? Basically every insider leak he spread recently has been wrong. He might have been trustworthy once, but he certainly isn't now. You say 5 people verified all his sources, without providing any links or actual facts.
Where did Linda Codega say that D&D Shorts sources were correct? I dunno. I haven't found anything she said that sounded remotely like that.
Treantmonk did not independently confirm this at all. He merely stated that this video was one that us D&D fans might want to watch.
The executives at Wizards and Hasbro aren't idiots. Some of you may believe they're evil jerks, but I highly doubt they would actively make moves that would completely destroy their profit. And again, something isn't true just because D&D Shorts said it was. At this point in time, I think anyone who believes that his insider sources are trustworthy is actively deceiving themself.
I mean, he was the one who issued a clarification after Wizards posted a refutation of some of his claims, yes.
But why would you trust Wizards over him? At best, he's unreliable. They're confirmed liars, multiple times over, in the recent weeks.
DnDShorts described his verification process. The information shared is extremely concerning.
You're trusting WotC waaaay too much if you aren't at least concerned this may be true.
Wasn't D&D Shorts the one who was wrong about D&D Beyond raising subscriptions? Wasn't D&D Shorts the one who was wrong about Wizards not listening to their feedback? Wasn't D&D Shorts the one who made ridiculous statements about your Open Game License being revoked for jaywalking?
Why are we listening to this guy? Basically every insider leak he spread recently has been wrong. He might have been trustworthy once, but he certainly isn't now. You say 5 people verified all his sources, without providing any links or actual facts.
Where did Linda Codega say that D&D Shorts sources were correct? I dunno. I haven't found anything she said that sounded remotely like that.
Treantmonk did not independently confirm this at all. He merely stated that this video was one that us D&D fans might want to watch.
The executives at Wizards and Hasbro aren't idiots. Some of you may believe they're evil jerks, but I highly doubt they would actively make moves that would completely destroy their profit. And again, something isn't true just because D&D Shorts said it was. At this point in time, I think anyone who believes that his insider sources are trustworthy is actively deceiving themself.
I mean, he was the one who issued a clarification after Wizards posted a refutation of some of his claims, yes.
But why would you trust Wizards over him? At best, he's unreliable. They're confirmed liars, multiple times over, in the recent weeks.
DnDShorts described his verification process. The information shared is extremely concerning.
You're trusting WotC waaaay too much if you aren't at least concerned this may be true.
A “clarification” where he basically did his best to pretend he didn’t jump the gun and report a bunch of hearsay as hard fact. And yet no one is screaming about him attempting to gaslight the viewers. Ah, gotta love the double standard.
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There are 5 confirmed sources that work at WotC. The sources were confirmed through video calls and LinkedIn. Vetted by ~5 different people one of whom is Linda Codega, the journalist who broke the story and has been organizing and helping the leakers. Treantmonk was vocal about not trusting DnDShorts(after his blunder) so, now Treantmonk has verified the 5 sources. The script read in the video was drafted by lawyers along with the 5 leak sources. Video made and sent to the 5 sources to confirm again these are their words before posting to us.
I poorly paraphrased Mark Seifter, BattleZoo Publisher.
This is a sad day for DnD. All we get is Baulder's Gate 4..
Yep and it doesn't matter what side your on (to the very few people here willing to defend a corporation) no matter what the outcome of the OGL or whatever, Dndbeyond has a terminal illness and it's time is coming.
I don't think that even D&D Shorts would say that D&D Beyond is ending....my reaction to the video below:
1) If any of this is accurate, Chris Cao seems like a thoroughly reprehensible manager, but unfortunately all too common for executives in the business world.
2) He may not like D&D Beyond, but most of the actual quotes infer that the intent of his new VTT program is to be separate from it, not added to it or (and this is the important part) replacing it. I say this because one, a quote indicated that he though people should pay more for the subscription tiers (Why would he care if he planned to shut it down anyway?), and two, multiple quotes and D&Dshorts own opinion said that this could be a separate program that would allow what the D&DBeyond team said regarding $30 subscriptions on D&D Beyond to be true, and that WotC is planning a $30 monthly subscription for the VTT program
3) Assuming the imagery was from the program, it looks awful, and seems like it would not allow for any sort of custom content, so it would wind up being useless for any DM or group that uses homebrew settings, campaigns, or other items. it might be fine for droughts between groups or players without a group, but it won't have a lot of overlap with a large portion of the existing fanbase.
4) Unless Chris Cao is an idiot of the highest measure, there is no way he would cancel or end D&D Beyond as a service until his vision for the VTT program comes to fruition and they understand the revenue potential. The fact is, they could shelve the entirety of future D&D Beyond development, and leave it running as a site, and still have a lot of subscribers keep their subscription and pay for things, because at the end of the day it is a fairly decent product. Killing and removing the site would 1) severely anger a large portion of an already angry fanbase and end a fairly regular (if not huge) stream of income for the brand. If D&D is making 150M annually in revenue, that is roughly 12.5M per month. Assuming the 40K deleted subscribers was true, and lets say they averaged $4 / month apiece, then that was a 160K hit per month lost in two days. Not huge, but enough to make them take a step back. I would guess the total revenue from D&D Beyond, between subscriptions, Compendium Content, and other purchases is a fairly decent portion of their income (and worth the 143M they paid for it), and they will not give that up unless they could guarantee being able to replace it quickly.
So, in summary, I don't think that this means that D&D Beyond is in danger of going away, though if you want a hint of how that might look, you will look to see if OneD&D functionality comes to the site. If it does, it's probably staying, if it doesn't, Its probably going to get shelved or future development halted
DnDBeyond isn't going anywhere, if anything its a comatose.
6e will be on the VTT
If DNDshorts video is true, the 'road to recovery' can become A LOT shorter if Chris Cao and Cynthia Williams are given the door.
Chris Cao and Cynthia Williams must leave the company. Every single company step coming from them has been a failure.
I’ve spent a lot of money on D&D Beyond (legendary bundle and master tier for years) and introduced 8 of my friends who were happy on pdf’s and paper notes to D&DB too. Now I’m just so sad. It felt like I was investing in a company making the best D&D toolset anyone had ever see, and even had ethical business practices for the most part (sharing content, homebrew API). This video is just so horrible.
Please, WotC/Hasbro, just stop all of this. You make a ton of money from us already and if you make your VTT as good as it sounded, it will make a heck of a lot more. Update the OGL if you need to combat hate but make it some sort of 3rd party comity’s decision and contestable in court. But make that and making the document TRUELY irrevocable the only changes. I doubt people would do anything but praise you for that.
Yours faithfully,
‘An obstacle between you and my money’
Honestly, the leaks smell somewhat of office politics of people who want to eliminate Chris Cao. It's certainly possible that he is in fact a toxic person, but people's motivations for leaking are rarely entirely altruistic.
As far as double-checking by lawyers goes, that just means they think they can't get (successfully) sued for libel, which is not a super high bar to meet.
Some skepticism I think is healthy, I agree on that point, but as a whole, the health and future of D&D is at stake here and I think as long as the community keeps up the pressure, I think we can expect positive change (I hope). The community has already had a lot of positive effects on Hasbro/Wizards Of the Coast/DnDBeyond response, so what we are doing is working.
I do think at some point we will have to accept a compromise of some sort, but at this stage the OGL and really the general treatment and plan for D&D is still pretty terrible and we have a long way to go before I think the community will turn about and support D&D's future.
Whatever the end result is, it can't be based on the situation/plan as is right now. Just my personal observation of the community at this stage, but I just don't think we are in compromise mode yet.
ah yes, by all means lets give the suits the benifit of the doubt again.. Like OGL 1.1 wasn't a thing that clearly points to this being true.
The double checking I am referring to was before publishing DnDShorts sent his video to the WotC leakers to make sure he wasn't misinterpreting what the leakers were saying. Basically so he didn't have another blunder and the community is now certain this is exactly what the WotC leakers are trying to tell us.
Not really, no. The core problem with the leaks is the claim that Chris Cao was surprised by the acquisition of DDB. If true, what that tells us is that he's not the one making the decisions. Which means that his bad ideas only matter if the person actually making the decisions listens to them.
It doesn’t mean that. It means he’s not the one making decisions on acquisitions. He can still be the one making the decisions going on now
If there's a malign tumor, you cut it out. If there's a dying corpse, you might still be able to use some of the organs. So no need to write off DnDBeyond just yet. Also, if the new info coming out is anything to go by, making sure DnDBeyond gets through this safely is also a priority.
In regards to DnDShorts, kudos on getting it properly verified. I had all but written him off, but I may have been too harsh. He seems very earnest and careful about presenting his information as much as-is as possible.
As for the manager and the CEO, are we even able to discuss them here? The forum rules stipulate that no "naming and shaming" of individuals is allowed and much as I believe we're really getting close to the root of the problem here, we also can't risk having a Boston bomber Reddit moment..
Actually, I am feeling sort of relieved about this for the first time since this mess started. If the new current leaks are true, then a victory for everyone is actually possible instead of everyone just losing variable amounts.
The problematic people can be removed and WotC can then take a stand for the original OGL or something equivalent to that. This leaves us with the status quo where WotC is also healthier in terms of commitment to the hobby.
In that scenario, I would probably have to resub, which I didn't even figure was an option at this point.
Prior to DnD Short's video, it seemed to me that users here had produced harrassment content against DnD Shorts with the likes of assumptions regarding such as a lack of veracity in his current content.
I now worry that DnD Shorts may have gone too far in sharing specific quotes from people whose jobs could be threatened and am yet to hear confirmation that the sharing of the actual quotes was sanctioned.
If DnD Shorts has shared specific content without the leakers' approval then that's on him. However, if he's been pushed to this extent because of bad-mouthing in the community then I think that those people in the community would share responsibility. (Let's all measure our words and restrain our spins).
DnD Shorts is basically saying "I'm now sharing this and then I'm out." It seems strange to me that a content creator would take this approach.
I'm not sure what you're saying. All I can go on is what's been said here, but it seems like you're trying to say that because we didn't believe him, he felt forced to reveal potentially identifying information about his sources and that that makes it our fault, and that doesn't jive with what I've seen.
I've not seen much in the way of spin or bad-mouthing here, at least. From what I've seen, he made a claim that WotC were going to release a $30/month subscription that was eerily similar to a confessed fake released a few months ago. If he couldn't ethically back up what he was saying with something solid, then he didn't have to make any claim at all. My healthy skepticism does not need to, nor should, be sacrificed on the altar of protecting his revenue stream.
He should have reviewed what he could and could not safely reveal, then assessed whether he should put the claim out there based on what he could use and what how that would affect the credibility of the claim and his own credibility. If it weren't enough, then just don't make the video. Or frame it as such that it doesn't damage his own credibility. I refuse to accept that me not accepting his word as gospel truth just because he said it bears any responsibility for his wreckless actions (if any). He gambled his credibility and therefore revenue to garner views and more revenue, not me.
I've yet to see anything on this site that wasn't simply healthy skepticism. Was it universally accepted? No, there was some "hey, that looks dubiously like a known fake from last year", but that's what healthy skepticism looks like. It's his fault if he's compromised people's jobs in his pursuit of views.
Perhaps you've seen something that I haven't, perhaps by "here" you're referring to Twitter or Reddit or something that I don't use, but I'm not seeing anything that makes me lay any blame in this forum.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
It's REAL and SCRIPTED though. Surely that's close enough
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HERE.I mean, he was the one who issued a clarification after Wizards posted a refutation of some of his claims, yes.
But why would you trust Wizards over him? At best, he's unreliable. They're confirmed liars, multiple times over, in the recent weeks.
DnDShorts described his verification process. The information shared is extremely concerning.
You're trusting WotC waaaay too much if you aren't at least concerned this may be true.
A “clarification” where he basically did his best to pretend he didn’t jump the gun and report a bunch of hearsay as hard fact. And yet no one is screaming about him attempting to gaslight the viewers. Ah, gotta love the double standard.