Hi all, looking at advancing beyond 5th in Ranger and Paladin (Knight of Silverymoon) - this means 3 attacks per round at Rng 5/Pal5 for example, correct? And it looks like the total proficiency bonus at 12Rng/8Pal (for example, again) is + 7 instead of the +6 for a level 20 single class?
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
This means that a character who is 5th level Ranger & 5th level Paladin can use the Extra Attack feature of the Ranger class OR the Extra Attack feature of the Paladin class, but the two do not combine/stack in any way.
Proficiency Bonus
Your proficiency bonus is always based on your total character level, not your level in a particular class. For example, if you are a fighter 3/rogue 2, you have the proficiency bonus of a 5th-level character, which is +3.
But what about the new Echo Knight class? A player of mine plans to take 5 Levels Fighter (Echo knight) and 3 Levels Ranger (Gloomstalker).
5th Level Fighters gain an additional attack per turn. As an echo knight, your echo can also make an additional attack from your echo's location. As a Gloomstalker, you can make an additional attack on your first turn of combat.
This means that you can get 4 attacks in your first turn at only level 8. This is all fine by the rules, correct? There isn't anything written that says this can't work? Right?
(On another fun note, the player is also already 3 levels rogue assassin, so he has advantage on all 4 of those attacks, and potentially auto-crits with them all in the right circumstances. Very fun)
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack. Echo Knight
This only means when you take the attack action and get two attacks, you can take them yourself, or with your echo, it does not get another separate attack.
Extra Attack
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
So basically no, he would still only have three attacks at most due to Unleash Incarnation, and that is limited.
Unleash Incarnation
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Hope this helps.
Nevermind, I found a quote by Mike Mearls that said the gloomstalker attack does work on the first round, so yes, you could get four on your first round of combat apparently.
You can get way more than 4 attacks on the first round of combat with that multiclass. You just need to have Haste on and Action Surge, and Dual Wield, and you can get a grand total of 12 attacks in a round.
Choose a willing creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the target's speed is doubled, it gains a +2 bonus to AC, it has advantage on Dexterity saving throws, and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.
When the spell ends, the target can't move or take actions until after its next turn, as a wave of lethargy sweeps over it.
Looks like it could potentially be 10 under those extreme circumstances.
Yes, Haste does only give you one extra attack in the given action, but when you look at the text on Gloomstalkers and Echo Knights, they both get to make an additional attack when you take the attack action. Each attack action you take gives you another attack.
Action 1: 2 attacks from extra attack from your position or the echo's. Then, one attack from Dread Ambusher from the echo's position, or yours. Then, one attack from Unleash Incarnation. 4 attacks in this one action. Action 2 from Action Surge: Copy of above, giving you 4 more attacks. Action 3 from Haste: One attack from the hasted action, one from Dread Ambusher, and one from Unleash Incarnation. This gives you three more attacks. Now, a total of 11. Bonus Action: Attack with another weapon in your off-hand from dual wielding or polearm master or crossbow expert from your position, not the echo's.
This is a total of 12 attacks. (I will edit my post above to correct this unless I find a way to do more attacks)
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Haste gives one extra action per turn that only gives one attack. It actually caps the action to one attack. It does not give the UI or DA the ability to go off.
The action can be used to attack (one weapon attack only), dash, disengage, hide, or use an object.
The spell doesn't give you a full attack action, it gives you an extra action that you can make one attack with.
I know this, but it does give you another attack action. The action gives you 1 attack only, but Gloomstalker's Dread Ambusher doesn't care about how many attacks the action gives you, it just triggers each time on the first turn you take an Attack Action. If you take multiple Attack actions, it triggers multiple times. This is true for Unleash Incarnation as well.
It doesn't require it to be a full attack action, because there's no difference between a Hasted Attack action and an Action Surged Attack action. They are the same for the purposes of triggering Dread Ambusher and Unleash Incarnation.
Tell me one reason why this wouldn't work.
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Haste does not set a baseline of one attack to which you can add more. Rather, haste sets a limit on the number of weapon attacks you can make with its Attack action. Hence, you cannot make both the normal attack and the Unleash Incarnation attack when you take the haste's Attack action, because that would exceed the limit of one weapon attack.
Moreover, the Unleash Incarnation attack is not some attack that occurs after the Attack action, nor is it separate from that Attack action. Rather, the Unleash Incarnation attack is part of the Attack action, so it's subject to the limits that haste imposes on the Attack action.
The above is the exact same reason why Extra Attack also can't exceed haste's limit. As a matter of fact, the relevant wording of Unleash Incarnation and Extra Attack are the same:
Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo's position.
and
you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The same logic applies to DA.
Nope. Haste's specific limitation on its attack action trumps Dread Ambusher's general increase to number of attacks.
The DM has the last say though, so it's really their call.
"You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position."
Never in this does it state that this attack is part of the same Attack action, so it's not limited by Haste's "One weapon attack only" statement.
Gloomstalker does specify:
"At the start of your first turn of each combat, your walking speed increases by 10 feet, which lasts until the end of that turn. If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action. If that attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d8 damage of the weapon’s damage type."
So, RAW, this would reduce this combo down to 11 attacks. The DM does decide if this applies, but it likely wouldn't work with haste to get another Dread Ambusher attack.
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In my opinion it does make it part of the attack action, but that's just mine though. I'd love to have an official ruling on it, but until then, agree to disagree on this one? :)
I agree that RAW, yes it is part of the attack, and it does limit the amount of attacks you can make. I don't know if this is RAI, I assume so, because 12 attacks at level 8 is kind of OP, even if it is only once a day, and then you're back to 2 attacks a turn.
I mean, definitely it is legal to do 11 attacks in a turn with this combo, but the final attack is up to debate (I agree that it isn't allowed), but otherwise, it is a solid build. No one else can do near this many attacks in one round at this level.
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Well, it's a crazy amount of attacks, but it's also an extreme set of circumstances as well, lol. The DA is limited to the first turn, the UI is limited to uses per long rest, and you aren't going to have haste all the time. So it's not like someone could get all that every round. It would be mighty impressive to pull off in battle though. :)
Hi all, looking at advancing beyond 5th in Ranger and Paladin (Knight of Silverymoon) - this means 3 attacks per round at Rng 5/Pal5 for example, correct? And it looks like the total proficiency bonus at 12Rng/8Pal (for example, again) is + 7 instead of the +6 for a level 20 single class?
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D&D Beyond FoundersThis means that a character who is 5th level Ranger & 5th level Paladin can use the Extra Attack feature of the Ranger class OR the Extra Attack feature of the Paladin class, but the two do not combine/stack in any way.
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i\In other words, you take the highest amount of the extra attacks. In this case, you would only get two attacks per action.
If you use your bonus action to for an off hand attack, then you would get three attacks per turn.
The only way to get what you're describing is the 11th level Fighter ability Extra Attack (2).
Awesome - Thanks the the clarification !!
Note, there ARE other ways to get more attacks per round in 5E. Just off the top of my head, two-weapon fighting, Haste and Crossbow Expert.
Hey, all!
But what about the new Echo Knight class? A player of mine plans to take 5 Levels Fighter (Echo knight) and 3 Levels Ranger (Gloomstalker).
5th Level Fighters gain an additional attack per turn. As an echo knight, your echo can also make an additional attack from your echo's location. As a Gloomstalker, you can make an additional attack on your first turn of combat.
This means that you can get 4 attacks in your first turn at only level 8. This is all fine by the rules, correct? There isn't anything written that says this can't work? Right?
(On another fun note, the player is also already 3 levels rogue assassin, so he has advantage on all 4 of those attacks, and potentially auto-crits with them all in the right circumstances. Very fun)
This only means when you take the attack action and get two attacks, you can take them yourself, or with your echo, it does not get another separate attack.
So basically no, he would still only have three attacks at most due to Unleash Incarnation, and that is limited.
Hope this helps.
Nevermind, I found a quote by Mike Mearls that said the gloomstalker attack does work on the first round, so yes, you could get four on your first round of combat apparently.
You can get way more than 4 attacks on the first round of combat with that multiclass. You just need to have Haste on and Action Surge, and Dual Wield, and you can get a grand total of 12 attacks in a round.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Looks like it could potentially be 10 under those extreme circumstances.
1st action - Attack action (2) UI (1) DA (1) = 4
Bonus action - offhand attack (1) = 1
Haste - Attack action (1) = 1
Action Surge - Attack Action (2) UI (1) DA (1) = 4
Yes, Haste does only give you one extra attack in the given action, but when you look at the text on Gloomstalkers and Echo Knights, they both get to make an additional attack when you take the attack action. Each attack action you take gives you another attack.
Action 1: 2 attacks from extra attack from your position or the echo's. Then, one attack from Dread Ambusher from the echo's position, or yours. Then, one attack from Unleash Incarnation. 4 attacks in this one action.
Action 2 from Action Surge: Copy of above, giving you 4 more attacks.
Action 3 from Haste: One attack from the hasted action, one from Dread Ambusher, and one from Unleash Incarnation. This gives you three more attacks. Now, a total of 11.
Bonus Action: Attack with another weapon in your off-hand from dual wielding or polearm master or crossbow expert from your position, not the echo's.
This is a total of 12 attacks. (I will edit my post above to correct this unless I find a way to do more attacks)
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Haste gives one extra action per turn that only gives one attack. It actually caps the action to one attack. It does not give the UI or DA the ability to go off.
The spell doesn't give you a full attack action, it gives you an extra action that you can make one attack with.
I know this, but it does give you another attack action. The action gives you 1 attack only, but Gloomstalker's Dread Ambusher doesn't care about how many attacks the action gives you, it just triggers each time on the first turn you take an Attack Action. If you take multiple Attack actions, it triggers multiple times. This is true for Unleash Incarnation as well.
It doesn't require it to be a full attack action, because there's no difference between a Hasted Attack action and an Action Surged Attack action. They are the same for the purposes of triggering Dread Ambusher and Unleash Incarnation.
Tell me one reason why this wouldn't work.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Opinions seem to agree on this point:
Haste does not set a baseline of one attack to which you can add more. Rather, haste sets a limit on the number of weapon attacks you can make with its Attack action. Hence, you cannot make both the normal attack and the Unleash Incarnation attack when you take the haste's Attack action, because that would exceed the limit of one weapon attack.
Moreover, the Unleash Incarnation attack is not some attack that occurs after the Attack action, nor is it separate from that Attack action. Rather, the Unleash Incarnation attack is part of the Attack action, so it's subject to the limits that haste imposes on the Attack action.
The above is the exact same reason why Extra Attack also can't exceed haste's limit. As a matter of fact, the relevant wording of Unleash Incarnation and Extra Attack are the same:
and
The same logic applies to DA.
The DM has the last say though, so it's really their call.
Unleash Incarnation states:
"You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position."
Never in this does it state that this attack is part of the same Attack action, so it's not limited by Haste's "One weapon attack only" statement.
Gloomstalker does specify:
"At the start of your first turn of each combat, your walking speed increases by 10 feet, which lasts until the end of that turn. If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action. If that attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d8 damage of the weapon’s damage type."
So, RAW, this would reduce this combo down to 11 attacks. The DM does decide if this applies, but it likely wouldn't work with haste to get another Dread Ambusher attack.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
In my opinion it does make it part of the attack action, but that's just mine though. I'd love to have an official ruling on it, but until then, agree to disagree on this one? :)
I agree that RAW, yes it is part of the attack, and it does limit the amount of attacks you can make. I don't know if this is RAI, I assume so, because 12 attacks at level 8 is kind of OP, even if it is only once a day, and then you're back to 2 attacks a turn.
I mean, definitely it is legal to do 11 attacks in a turn with this combo, but the final attack is up to debate (I agree that it isn't allowed), but otherwise, it is a solid build. No one else can do near this many attacks in one round at this level.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Well, it's a crazy amount of attacks, but it's also an extreme set of circumstances as well, lol. The DA is limited to the first turn, the UI is limited to uses per long rest, and you aren't going to have haste all the time. So it's not like someone could get all that every round. It would be mighty impressive to pull off in battle though. :)