Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
Sign in- Marketplace
Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
Sign in
Alchemist Artificer has so much hate for no reason. Alchemist is a great support subclass that can make powerful Abjurer-support wizard-multiclass.Their potions are prety good, their healing spells are very good and they are balanced with controll and annoying spells, #rayofsickness. They are some times unusefull if they don't roll good for their elixir but at a bit higher levels they give Temporary HP with every single potion. Also you later buff some of your damaging spells and you gain a huge enhance to your healing spells AND at level 15 you are immune to the annoying poisoned condition and you gain resilience to acid and poison damage.
Hi!!!! Wanna make a pact with him? Pm me if you want to! IL tell you the take offs!
I'm also an Anime and Fortnite fun.(and homebrewing student-master)
Ext Sign
The Club
Pm me the word avocado.
OK Armorer is my favorite subclass for Artificier but if you give a spell slot during a long rest to create another elixir you give it the effects you want.This puts the character to a different, boring but cool for Wizardry nerds playstyle. It isn't my favorite subclass and I rarely play Artificiers but this subclass isn't bad.
Hi!!!! Wanna make a pact with him? Pm me if you want to! IL tell you the take offs!
I'm also an Anime and Fortnite fun.(and homebrewing student-master)
Ext Sign
The Club
Pm me the word avocado.
Well, one of the changes in the 5.5e version was increasing the number of free ones you get per Long Rest, and while it's not quite PB/LR, it's close. (You start with 2 and get a third at level 5, a fourth at level 9, and a fifth at level 15.)
pronouns: he/she/they
I'm talking about Tasha's artificier, I don't have the Eberron version.
Hi!!!! Wanna make a pact with him? Pm me if you want to! IL tell you the take offs!
I'm also an Anime and Fortnite fun.(and homebrewing student-master)
Ext Sign
The Club
Pm me the word avocado.
Eberron: Forge of the Artificer has an updated 5.5e version of the entire Artificer class and all four subclasses, plus a new fifth subclass (Cartographer). It's worth looking into as there have been a lot of improvements over either 5e version.
I don't like the randomness of it either. I don't think it makes much thematic sense, and mechanically it only seems to serve to limit the subclass's effectiveness.
pronouns: he/she/they
The problem is that (I think) a lot of people playing an alchemist don't necessarily want the "throw it all in a cauldron and see what happens" angle.
There's a "you decide" option already on the table, and Boldness and Resilience are both pretty universally useful buffs; that means you've got even odds per roll of getting a non-niche potion. If you absolutely must have a particular one, spend a 1st level slot for it, that's about even value imo.
Sort of true for 2014, not so for 2024.
In 2024, you can't cast Bless or Healing Word as an Artificer (without further investment or Subclass features), so that's not really an option anyway. Even if you could (or you're willing to use feats etc to get them), the Alchemist can do this before the battle and thus not need to spend a Spell slot when you use it - meaning you can use your Action to cast a levelled spell spell, if you wish. Also the elixir can also improve. Healing is better straight off - d8s instead of d4s improving at L9 and above with extra dice, while the others (excluding Fly, which is a 3rd(!) level spell) are equivalent to L1 spells until you reach L9 where they get better).
Now, I'm not saying the Alchemist fills me with excitement or anything. It's not brilliant (at best) and even if it were strong, the benefits beyond the elixirs are pretty boring. But to imply that there's no advantage to being an Alchemist ignores what's actually there.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Just for the sake of clarity: Bless and Healing Word weren't on the general Artificer spell list in 2014 either. Healing Word is on the Alchemist always-prepared list in both the 2014 and 2024 versions.
pronouns: he/she/they
Four additional points. First, the elixirs have better action economy than the comparable spells - the elixirs take a bonus action to use on oneself or on others, whereas the comparable spells require a full action. Second, you are not required to keep the elixirs on your person. Rouge going off on their own? Give them a potion that might help them survive, even if they are otherwise out of range of support Magic. Fourth, the elixirs bypass the risks that occur if you drink multiple potions with extended durations. Finally, the ability scales that you ultimately get 5 random potions, each with a 1/3 chance of being what you want, and up to four chosen potions. Nine potions per day is not too shabby.
Overall, I think the subclass is fairly weak, with a mix of abilities that severely fall off in power at higher levels (a complaint that can be made of many half-casters). But this particular ability seems fine - not my personal power fantasy, but if you want the fantasy of someone who can slap together potions at a moment’s notice, this fits the bill.
And for additional clarity, Healing Word (which is a bonus action to cast) is on the Cartographer's always-prepared list for 2024 also.
Consider the obvious point that rather than one caster trying to use all of these concurrently, they can be distributed to the players so everyone just spends a Bonus Action drinking the potions; that’s a pretty sharp bump to action economy over one person trying to carry the whole load.
Artificers also have Infusions; that’s a rather significant detail to conveniently disregard if we’re assessing performance based on class features as well as subclass features.
Operative word 'if"; you can cherry pick a campaign scenario where Infusions are marginalized, but as a rule of thumb a party will find having 5 extra magic items to be pretty beneficial even at level 14.
If we’re talking about Alchemists specifically if we use a general Artificer feature in a discussion of which subclass to pick
Again, this is just a general Artificer not an Alchemist specifically. You can do all that as an Artillerist, Armorer, or Battle Smith and still be more effective in a fight
Not picking you specifically, just your post to make a few points when others have expressed similar sentiments.
Taking a dip delays progression in higher level spells and other abilities, leaving the splashed class behind a straight class most of their adventuring career in order to cast spells the alchemist can already cast via the potions, which have the advantage of being used by any character instead of just the alchemist, being cast on a bonus action instead of a standard action, and not requiring concentration when the equivalent spells might.
Gaining the equivalent of a few random bonus spells each day plus the ability to cast a wider variety of spells with spell slot because of the 5 additional options is nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
We should be comparing this subclass to other artificer subclasses to rate it instead of full casters. The artificer limited spell progression is what add to the number of abilities on the class progression list as opposed to a wizard who really only adds more spells. We need to look at that bigger picture.
You can't counterspell a potion. A person should consider some of the smaller benefits too.
Having those elixirs gives the opportunity to prepare other spells instead for a wider variety of options available to the alchemist than other artificers.
The rest of your post seems like suggestions instead of discussion on the merits (or lack thereof) of alchemist so I'll ignore that. Moving beyond the quote...
Artificers in general get replicate magic item. It doesn't matter if the campaign is has a lot or not because replicate magic item is still more items and those item are selected instead of randomly found. It takes a monty haul campaign with magic shops and large amounts of gold to really trivialize that, and that's not the norm IME.
Artificers get Magic Item Tinker, which leverages using spell slots to charge items that produce higher level spells than those spell slots would have. Artificers don't just create a few magic items. They also create items faster in which they specialize (which is fast for alchemists and cartographers) but they can also leverage items to make better use of their spell slots. The Magic Item Adept line of abilities relates to this in allowing artificers to not be as limited in magic items being used as other classes.
Flash of Genius and Spell-Storing Item are good abilities.
Alchemists in particular begin with Experimental Elixir as their basic ability. These have been increased in the 2024 ruleset so that the elixir replicating Alter Self was replace with a choice and leaving 5 random options. That's like having 5 more additional spells known and from 2 to 5 additional random spells available to cast depending on level. One of those options is Flight Elixir, which grants flying without concentration as early as 3rd level on bonus action. That alone is worthwhile within the elixirs.
The elixirs also don't only increase in number with class level. They increase in the potency of their effectiveness. Why would I cast a Healing Word spell with a 1st level slot when that same 1st level slot to power a Healing Elixir that heals 4d8 + 2 x INT mod (at 15th level) instead of 2d4 + 2 x INT mod for that same alchemist? Or 2d4 + WIS mod for a cleric? Or 2d8 + mod for Cure Wounds from other casters? The only point in Healing Word for a higher level alchemist is the immediate range.
Why would I spend a 1st level spell slot to give someone a 10' move increase for an hour casting Longstrider when I can use that same slot to give someone a 20' move increase for an hour instead with the Swiftness Elixir? Or Bless when the Boldness Elixir lasts an hour and doesn't require concentration? The Resilience Elixir eventually lasts for 8 hours.
Every elixir type increases in the potency of it's effect at 9th and 15th level even though it's still powered by only a 1st level spell slot. The biggest issue with alchemists in 2014 rules was the low duration for the limited resource. This has been corrected by increasing the effectiveness or duration and adding additional elixirs. These are not poor options. These are adding versatility to the base class.
Alchemical Savant isn't bad. It's a cantrip spammer for damage type of ability but cantrip spamming isn't bad, and this is obviously a more support oriented choice. It's good enough for that style of a build. And it does contribute to a better healing bonus on spells.
Restorative Reagents is a bit mixed in my opinion. On one hand it's another spell that the alchemist doesn't need to prepare like other casters might, and it's slots that they don't need to spend; but it's not always useful. Fortunately, this is also the first level where the elixirs gain a bump to go with this ability and when 3rd level spells are gained so 9th level in total is a decent enough boost.
Chemical Mastery is also a bit mixed because I thought the spells granted in the 2014 version gave a single moment for an effect that would exceed the typical limits of the class, but Alchemical Eruption can be used much more consistently and with that same cantrip spamming option. Conjured Cauldron is much more versatile as well. It's an improvement overall. It's also the same level the elixirs increase in their effect again.
When we put these together then other artificer subclasses still have more use for their bonus action built into the subclasses so what that means is the alchemist needs to find a way to use that bonus action as often (which is possible), and it also restricts other artificer subclasses because they're bonus action is already dedicated to other abilities already.
One of the easiest ways to do this is with the Flaming Sphere spell. The low number of spell slots can limit this at lower levels, but the duration is good enough to matter and using the SSI for Flaming Sphere allows for consistent use throughout more than the adventuring day. Other artificers do not have a similar spell to leverage in the same way, and upcasting Flaming Sphere into a higher slot gives a limited time increase in damage.
All artificers can command their Homunculus with no action as well, which is eventually good for 1d6+5 force damage.
So at 15th level a typical expectation looks like...
That's before accuracy and I would argue that cartographers granting an initiative bonus through the Adventurer's Atlas and ability to spam Faerie Fire have a significant impact, but it gives a good general indication what to expect. Other artificer subclasses add flashier combat spells for occasional use but the alchemist focuses more on healing and support and this is okay. If that's not a particular player's preference then the solution is to play what that player wants instead of changing alchemists to cater to what that player wants. ;-)
Sample artificer at 15th level might look like this:
Spells...
Replicated magic items...
Note that the Helm of Teleportation lets the artificer recharge it using 1st level spell slots to cast Teleport as an example of leveraging spell slots and replicated magic item charges using Magic Item Tinker. The ability to replicate rare wonderous items and recharge them using spell slots has a lot of potential at high levels.
Having the Portable Hole and Bag of Holding plans makes for a way to create a portal to the Astral Plane if desired, included for kicks. ;-)
I would hardly call alchemists a weak option. They're a support option on a decent class that takes some system mastery to use well.
i love this that's what i do at the kitchen
Hi!!!! Wanna make a pact with him? Pm me if you want to! IL tell you the take offs!
I'm also an Anime and Fortnite fun.(and homebrewing student-master)
Ext Sign
The Club
Pm me the word avocado.
I thought I would add this to my above post...
That example can also cast Lesser Restoration up to 5 times without prepping it or using slots, and 5 random rolls produced the following elixirs:
I would probably choose Resilience and create healing elixirs as needed. I tried random rolling two more times to see what comes up. Second set...
Third set...
I would probably choose Resilience on that one too. The thought crossed my mind that randomness isn't concern a person might think it is when there are no bad options. So I gave it another shot...
Here's a reminder of what each does...
It's not really a bad option just because it's random.