Planning on using the new 2025 dragon stats in an upcoming campaign. I like most of the changes. But going to maintain the old 2014 lair actions mechanics instead of the new ones and not give the +1 Legendary action bump. Question for DMs out there is do you think in general would this be a buff / nerf / or neutral for CR?
If we go by 5.0 DMG CR calculations, the extra legendary resistances adds effective hp and the extra legendary adds effective damage, so taking those away in exchange for the lair action damage/control seems most likely to be balanced IMO.
Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I have 2014 red dragon lair actions factoring in to a session I'm running shortly. Designed the encounter with them in mind. I'll use the 2025 stats though since I'm curious to try out the new mechanics. For sure during any melee attacks I'll continue to narrate a claw or bite or tail but will just use the new damage. I also have an ancient red that will be in the latter part of the campaign. For her, I'm using the old 3.5 Draconomicon with feats and spells and such. Loved that book. Still use the fluff from it with all my 5e dragons.
It's funny that in all the editions, and I'm an old dude playing since OD&D 1979, they never have done what I always wanted. Streamlined creature stats for ease of play in typical encounters (2025 MM has done this), but then also provide one splat book for all the iconic creature groups in one place to give flavor and depth to them if a DM wants to use it. Including CR/XP adjustments for these options. Second edition and 3.5 went too far with countless splat books that were overload. One elegant book that gives depth to Dragons, Devils, Demons, Beholders, Illithid, Giants, and maybe a few others like iconic undead Liches, etc. Deeper spell lists, abilities, feats, etc that you can use for campaigns with these iconic creatures as the focus.
For now I'll keep customizing these guys using older edition and 3rd party 5e supplements. Just wish Wizards would give us this all in one place.
I really miss the lair actions because they added some diversity to the combat. The monster still had it's actions, the legendary actions, and then on 20 I had something neat with the lair happening.
Was a really good way of getting the environment to come into play without having to come up with something complicated on the fly or home-brewing things. Right now I expect to still use them, but will have to use the old rules. That makes me a LOT more likely to not use anything from the 2024 ruleset going forward.
Definitely worth noting that lair actions are only applied to legendary creatures, and for dragons that have them the impact is so slight compared to other monsters (such as Beholders) that it doesn't increase their CR https://speedtest.vet/https://vidmate.bid/ .
If you have them cost a legendary action, probably no effect. In general, to get +1 CR in the CR 1-19 range you need about +40 damage over 3 turns, CR 20+ needs around +110.
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Planning on using the new 2025 dragon stats in an upcoming campaign. I like most of the changes. But going to maintain the old 2014 lair actions mechanics instead of the new ones and not give the +1 Legendary action bump. Question for DMs out there is do you think in general would this be a buff / nerf / or neutral for CR?
The 2014 lair actions were fantastic.
I don't understand how the flagship monster, literally in the game name, became so dumbed down with a lack of creativity.
I would say it doesn't change the CR, and makes the encounter much more interesting.
If we go by 5.0 DMG CR calculations, the extra legendary resistances adds effective hp and the extra legendary adds effective damage, so taking those away in exchange for the lair action damage/control seems most likely to be balanced IMO.
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Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I have 2014 red dragon lair actions factoring in to a session I'm running shortly. Designed the encounter with them in mind. I'll use the 2025 stats though since I'm curious to try out the new mechanics. For sure during any melee attacks I'll continue to narrate a claw or bite or tail but will just use the new damage. I also have an ancient red that will be in the latter part of the campaign. For her, I'm using the old 3.5 Draconomicon with feats and spells and such. Loved that book. Still use the fluff from it with all my 5e dragons.
It's funny that in all the editions, and I'm an old dude playing since OD&D 1979, they never have done what I always wanted. Streamlined creature stats for ease of play in typical encounters (2025 MM has done this), but then also provide one splat book for all the iconic creature groups in one place to give flavor and depth to them if a DM wants to use it. Including CR/XP adjustments for these options. Second edition and 3.5 went too far with countless splat books that were overload. One elegant book that gives depth to Dragons, Devils, Demons, Beholders, Illithid, Giants, and maybe a few others like iconic undead Liches, etc. Deeper spell lists, abilities, feats, etc that you can use for campaigns with these iconic creatures as the focus.
For now I'll keep customizing these guys using older edition and 3rd party 5e supplements. Just wish Wizards would give us this all in one place.
I really miss the lair actions because they added some diversity to the combat. The monster still had it's actions, the legendary actions, and then on 20 I had something neat with the lair happening.
Was a really good way of getting the environment to come into play without having to come up with something complicated on the fly or home-brewing things. Right now I expect to still use them, but will have to use the old rules. That makes me a LOT more likely to not use anything from the 2024 ruleset going forward.
Definitely worth noting that lair actions are only applied to legendary creatures, and for dragons that have them the impact is so slight compared to other monsters (such as Beholders) that it doesn't increase their CR https://speedtest.vet/ https://vidmate.bid/ .
If you have them cost a legendary action, probably no effect. In general, to get +1 CR in the CR 1-19 range you need about +40 damage over 3 turns, CR 20+ needs around +110.