there seems to be some dispute about this, and it's not super clear, so was just curious to see how folks here would rule on this: what are the ramifications of the Monk's Slow Fall and the Tasha's falling-onto-creatures rules taken together? Is it possible to pull off a "Drop Bear" attack?
Monk class feature:
"Beginning at 4th level, you can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level."
Tasha's falling rules:
"If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature."
here's how as a player i'd like it to work (and how as a rule-of-cool-forward DM i'd allow it):
4th-level Monk X is in a tree 80 feet above Orc Y.
X jumps out to do a Drop Bear Attack on Y.
the 80 foot fall constitutes 8d6 of damage; let's say it's a slightly-above-average roll of 30 total damage.
Y rolls a DEX save and fails, so that damage is split evenly between X and Y - 15 points apiece.
X *then* uses their reaction to reduce that 15 points of damage to zero, and is unscathed.
But Y takes the full 15 points of damage, getting knocked prone in the process (or dying, if their HP are low enough!).
as far as i can tell, this is a totally defensible, if player-advantageous, reading of the rules that is effective in this narrow but not implausible situation. would be curious how others would read it- if this works and, if not, where in the process they'd rule differently.
bonus q: since Monk X has really only used movement (dropping) and a reaction (slow fall), do they still have the chance to take an action and bonus action, including an attack on the now-prone Orc Y? or is that a step too far?
The falling rules in Tasha's and PHB is based on normal rate of falling. The fall is more or less instantaneous and your reaction of slow fall is when you fall not when you're at a specific point - so it will be used before you reach the target.
Since you reduce the falling damage, you fall safe and sound and harmlessly on the target, who will wonder what the feck you're doing and probably try to give you a well-deserved slap.
The falling rules in Tasha's and PHB is based on normal rate of falling. The fall is more or less instantaneous and your reaction of slow fall is when you fall not when you're at a specific point - so it will be used before you reach the target.
Since you reduce the falling damage, you fall safe and sound and harmlessly on the target, who will wonder what the feck you're doing and probably try to give you a well-deserved slap.
But Slow Fall only reduces falling damage the monk takes. It doesn't reduce the total falling damage - the monk just takes less, using the same reduction damage mechanic as in heavy armor master. E.g. "Slow Fall" could be the name of a Kung Fu technique which concentrates Ki in your legs so they can take more abuse and it would mechanically work, well, the way it's described. I don't think it necessarily follows that using Slow Fall also protects the other creature from damage.
Could a Barbarian who is raging also do a Dropbear attack to do falling damage to an enemy who fails it's DC 15 DEX saving throw?
The Barbarian would only take half damage from the fall while the enemy takes full damage. The full falling damage would be split among them first.
So while the Barbarian and enemy would split 20d6 bludgeoning damage... roughly 35 damage each on average and then the Barbarian would take half of that... 17 bludgeoning total.
The falling rules in Tasha's and PHB is based on normal rate of falling. The fall is more or less instantaneous and your reaction of slow fall is when you fall not when you're at a specific point - so it will be used before you reach the target.
Since you reduce the falling damage, you fall safe and sound and harmlessly on the target, who will wonder what the feck you're doing and probably try to give you a well-deserved slap.
But Slow Fall only reduces falling damage the monk takes. It doesn't reduce the total falling damage - the monk just takes less, using the same reduction damage mechanic as in heavy armor master. E.g. "Slow Fall" could be the name of a Kung Fu technique which concentrates Ki in your legs so they can take more abuse and it would mechanically work, well, the way it's described. I don't think it necessarily follows that using Slow Fall also protects the other creature from damage.
It is the Monks Falling damage that is being shared between both the one you land on and the monk. Reducing it would reduce the damage for the one you land on as well. It is not different instances of damage for both. It's just a way to take the damage of the falling creature and split it between it and another. The slow fall would remove all damage as well for the same reason. Since the falling creatures damage would be reduced there would not be enough impact to hurt the creature you fell on either.
It is also not just some supernatural strengthening of your legs. The monk has the requirement of being near a vertical surface. This means that no matter how you actually do it that vertical surface is involved in however you happen to slow your fall. You don't get to turn yourself into an impact weapon without consequences. Remove the consequences for you. Remove them for the other person as well. So Magically strengthening your legs while crushing somebody else does not work.
The falling rules in Tasha's and PHB is based on normal rate of falling. The fall is more or less instantaneous and your reaction of slow fall is when you fall not when you're at a specific point - so it will be used before you reach the target.
Since you reduce the falling damage, you fall safe and sound and harmlessly on the target, who will wonder what the feck you're doing and probably try to give you a well-deserved slap.
But Slow Fall only reduces falling damage the monk takes. It doesn't reduce the total falling damage - the monk just takes less, using the same reduction damage mechanic as in heavy armor master. E.g. "Slow Fall" could be the name of a Kung Fu technique which concentrates Ki in your legs so they can take more abuse and it would mechanically work, well, the way it's described. I don't think it necessarily follows that using Slow Fall also protects the other creature from damage.
It is the Monks Falling damage that is being shared between both the one you land on and the monk. Reducing it would reduce the damage for the one you land on as well. It is not different instances of damage for both. It's just a way to take the damage of the falling creature and split it between it and another. The slow fall would remove all damage as well for the same reason. Since the falling creatures damage would be reduced there would not be enough impact to hurt the creature you fell on either.
It is also not just some supernatural strengthening of your legs. The monk has the requirement of being near a vertical surface. This means that no matter how you actually do it that vertical surface is involved in however you happen to slow your fall. You don't get to turn yourself into an impact weapon without consequences. Remove the consequences for you. Remove them for the other person as well. So Magically strengthening your legs while crushing somebody else does not work.
I do not believe the Slow Fall feature of the monk class has any requirement of being near a vertical surface to slow the fall.
Beginning at 4th level, you can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level.
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The fall damage has to be split before reductions are applied, otherwise the faller's resistances and immunities apply to the victim too, which makes no sense.
Slow Fall reduces the damage the monk takes. If the damage is being split by definition the monk isn't taking the other creature's share of the damage. If the fall was going to be 40 damage and it got split, the monk's only going to take 20 and they only need to reduce their fall damage by 20 to avoid losing HP and falling prone.
The order of operations should be:
Split the damage.
Non-resistance reductions (Slow Fall, immunity)
Resistance (always goes last, per the rules.)
This isn't as great as it seems at early levels since you still take the full damage if the victim makes their save. If you can only absorb 30 damage and try a 60 damage drop, you'll do 30 damage if you're lucky but take 30 if you're unlucky. You're not just doing 0 when you fail like a normal attack, you're making negative progress. If you play it safe you're limited to 15 damage so you can absorb the full 30 when you fail.
I think the answer to this question is in the name of the skill: SLOW Fall. This indicates that the monk is able to slow his speed of descent, and thus, lessen the force of his fall. This would also negate any damage done to anyone he lands on.
I think the answer to this question is in the name of the skill: SLOW Fall. This indicates that the monk is able to slow his speed of descent, and thus, lessen the force of his fall. This would also negate any damage done to anyone he lands on.
That could be RAI and what the designers were envisioning when they wrote the ability, so I would not hold it against any DM that wants to play it that way.
RAW that may not be the case, mechanically speaking. As InquisitiveCoder pointed out, the monk has to take damage before they can reduce it. You have to determine how much damage the monk takes before Slow Fall activates, and that requires you to apply any other environmental/magical influences to the damage first (such as another creature "cushioning" the fall).
You are not reducing the damage you "would take", you are reducing the damage you "take"
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The name "Slow Fall" is historical. In previous editions you'd use a wall to slow your descent (and were explicitly out of luck if you didn't have one within arm's reach.) This is no longer the case in 5e and without a new explanation for the reduced fall damage, I'd take the name with a grain of salt. After all, Mage Armor doesn't actually give you armor and Shield doesn't conjure a floating tower shield like it used to.
thanks all! interesting discussion and i think there's lots of different ways this interaction can play out according to the rules. i definitely don't think there's any requirement, by the rules, to treat it one way or the other, so it's at the DM's discretion, and will vary table to table. I'm inclined, as i noted in my original post, to read the order of operations the way InquisitiveCoder does, but i also think this is a very good point:
This isn't as great as it seems at early levels since you still take the full damage if the victim makes their save.
which is very true and imposes a high potential opportunity cost on this as a tactic.
and to answer my own bonus question about it: i'd count the Drop Bear Gambit as the player's attack action, not their movement, and not let them take an additional attack action afterward.
I would agree with Lyxen. Figure out what damage the monk takes after slow fall and then split it.
I do recall playing a monk in AD&D where you did have to be near a wall, but 5 E doesn’t have that. I assume it is more akin to someone doing parkour where they jump down from fairly big heights but they know how to land and not injure themselves. But on a greater level for the monk since this is fantasy after all.
The problem arises from not knowing how much damage the monk will take.
We first have to determine if the damage will be split between 2 creatures or just dealt to the monk.
The creature being fallen on must 1st make their saving throw, whether they succeed or fail will determine how much damage is dealt to the monk from the fall.
The monk's slow fall ability will not lessen the overall damage from the fall or any of the damage being dealt to the creature being fallen on. It can only lessen damage dealt to the monk.
The name "Slow Fall" is historical. In previous editions you'd use a wall to slow your descent (and were explicitly out of luck if you didn't have one within arm's reach.) This is no longer the case in 5e and without a new explanation for the reduced fall damage, I'd take the name with a grain of salt. After all, Mage Armor doesn't actually give you armor and Shield doesn't conjure a floating tower shield like it used to.
This is correct in the case of slow fall. And it was my mistake. I've been doing some things with older systems and forgot they took that requirement out of 5e. It was very fitting in older editions to work that way so my brain has stuck with it and I apologize.
However Mage Armor technically does still give you armor. It's just not physical. It's basically a weightless force construct. So it does technically still give you armor.
And shield originally actually started out as placing a momentary wall of force. The aspect of it making a ephemeral tower shield was added in much later. and now it's just evolved into kind of an amorphous magical effect described in lots of ways.
However Mage Armor technically does still give you armor. It's just not physical. It's basically a weightless force construct. So it does technically still give you armor.
In an informal sense, yes. But not for the purposes of any rules that care about whether you're wearing armor or not.
Ultimately the names of features can give you some idea of what they do but they're not necessarily accurate. Another good example is the College of Sword's Blade Flourish, which doesn't require a sword or even a melee weapon, and its Slashing Flourish option works with any damage type. It's really tempting to extrapolate from the name you can only really count on the description.
one of the most valuable things you learn in aikido classes is how to take a fall or get thrown and minimize the impact. "slow fall" is just a name, and flavor-wise at least for my current character i look at this reaction as more about breath control, taking a good landing/roll, and blunting the impact to your body than it is a literal mystical reduction in the velocity of the fall. the fall creates a certain quantity of damage; the monk can just use the reaction to cancel out the damage.
The height of the fall determines how many d6 of damage to calculate the fall... I think there is a rule that says it maxes out at 20d6.
However much damage it is, if someone is underneath and being fallen on, then they have to make a saving throw.
If they make the save then the falling damage is all dealt to the monk and they can reduce it.
If they fail the save then the fall damage is divided between the two, and then the monk reduces some of the damage dealt to the monk only from the fall.
Whoever got landed on takes their full half of the damage and is knocked prone.
The person who fell can then spend half their movement to stand up and make any and all attacks against the prone creature who got landed on.
If we assume Aaracokra 20th level monk, they can fly up 80 ft, if they dash as action and use step of the wind that's 240 ft. If they had Boots of Speed and somebody used Haste on them they could get 1,120 feet up. So they can easily achieve the 20d6 max fall damage which is an average of 70. Slow fall would negate up to 120 pts of damage (max of 20d6 is 120, a monk of 20th level is literally immune to fall damage).
The monk would be free to do this every turn for 1 ki point for step of wind, if even needed. Anyone trying to abuse this would probably get the Athlete feat and so doesn't suffer the "half your movement" cost to get up from prone, just 5 ft of movement they could easily spare.
Slow Fall does not mention the means by which the damage reduction happens - and so even by RAW it's a pure DM call.
The RAI is very clear though: the enemy takes the same damage as the falling character, which is half the fall damage.
So isn't it best to say, regardless of rule interpretation: calculate fall damage, if slow fall is used, reduce that damage, split the remainder, if any, between the monk and the enemy - enemy gets to save to avoid it. Restricting dex saves is easy, and a co-ordinated party could easily help the monk with this - so if you ruled the reduction is only for the monk you're basically letting the monk increase average output from 22 average damage across 4 attacks, to average 35 damage from one dex save the enemy can be made to have disadvantage on, -1d4 to or even made to autofail.
Implementing the rule that slow fall reduces the damage for both would prevent any cheesy abuse of this. This was intended as a "hazard rule" not a wrestling move buff for monks.
there seems to be some dispute about this, and it's not super clear, so was just curious to see how folks here would rule on this: what are the ramifications of the Monk's Slow Fall and the Tasha's falling-onto-creatures rules taken together? Is it possible to pull off a "Drop Bear" attack?
Monk class feature:
Tasha's falling rules:
here's how as a player i'd like it to work (and how as a rule-of-cool-forward DM i'd allow it):
as far as i can tell, this is a totally defensible, if player-advantageous, reading of the rules that is effective in this narrow but not implausible situation. would be curious how others would read it- if this works and, if not, where in the process they'd rule differently.
bonus q: since Monk X has really only used movement (dropping) and a reaction (slow fall), do they still have the chance to take an action and bonus action, including an attack on the now-prone Orc Y? or is that a step too far?
The falling rules in Tasha's and PHB is based on normal rate of falling. The fall is more or less instantaneous and your reaction of slow fall is when you fall not when you're at a specific point - so it will be used before you reach the target.
Since you reduce the falling damage, you fall safe and sound and harmlessly on the target, who will wonder what the feck you're doing and probably try to give you a well-deserved slap.
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But Slow Fall only reduces falling damage the monk takes. It doesn't reduce the total falling damage - the monk just takes less, using the same reduction damage mechanic as in heavy armor master. E.g. "Slow Fall" could be the name of a Kung Fu technique which concentrates Ki in your legs so they can take more abuse and it would mechanically work, well, the way it's described. I don't think it necessarily follows that using Slow Fall also protects the other creature from damage.
Could a Barbarian who is raging also do a Dropbear attack to do falling damage to an enemy who fails it's DC 15 DEX saving throw?
The Barbarian would only take half damage from the fall while the enemy takes full damage. The full falling damage would be split among them first.
So while the Barbarian and enemy would split 20d6 bludgeoning damage... roughly 35 damage each on average and then the Barbarian would take half of that... 17 bludgeoning total.
It is the Monks Falling damage that is being shared between both the one you land on and the monk. Reducing it would reduce the damage for the one you land on as well. It is not different instances of damage for both. It's just a way to take the damage of the falling creature and split it between it and another. The slow fall would remove all damage as well for the same reason. Since the falling creatures damage would be reduced there would not be enough impact to hurt the creature you fell on either.
It is also not just some supernatural strengthening of your legs. The monk has the requirement of being near a vertical surface. This means that no matter how you actually do it that vertical surface is involved in however you happen to slow your fall. You don't get to turn yourself into an impact weapon without consequences. Remove the consequences for you. Remove them for the other person as well. So Magically strengthening your legs while crushing somebody else does not work.
I do not believe the Slow Fall feature of the monk class has any requirement of being near a vertical surface to slow the fall.
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The fall damage has to be split before reductions are applied, otherwise the faller's resistances and immunities apply to the victim too, which makes no sense.
Slow Fall reduces the damage the monk takes. If the damage is being split by definition the monk isn't taking the other creature's share of the damage. If the fall was going to be 40 damage and it got split, the monk's only going to take 20 and they only need to reduce their fall damage by 20 to avoid losing HP and falling prone.
The order of operations should be:
This isn't as great as it seems at early levels since you still take the full damage if the victim makes their save. If you can only absorb 30 damage and try a 60 damage drop, you'll do 30 damage if you're lucky but take 30 if you're unlucky. You're not just doing 0 when you fail like a normal attack, you're making negative progress. If you play it safe you're limited to 15 damage so you can absorb the full 30 when you fail.
I think the answer to this question is in the name of the skill: SLOW Fall. This indicates that the monk is able to slow his speed of descent, and thus, lessen the force of his fall. This would also negate any damage done to anyone he lands on.
That could be RAI and what the designers were envisioning when they wrote the ability, so I would not hold it against any DM that wants to play it that way.
RAW that may not be the case, mechanically speaking. As InquisitiveCoder pointed out, the monk has to take damage before they can reduce it. You have to determine how much damage the monk takes before Slow Fall activates, and that requires you to apply any other environmental/magical influences to the damage first (such as another creature "cushioning" the fall).
You are not reducing the damage you "would take", you are reducing the damage you "take"
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The name "Slow Fall" is historical. In previous editions you'd use a wall to slow your descent (and were explicitly out of luck if you didn't have one within arm's reach.) This is no longer the case in 5e and without a new explanation for the reduced fall damage, I'd take the name with a grain of salt. After all, Mage Armor doesn't actually give you armor and Shield doesn't conjure a floating tower shield like it used to.
thanks all! interesting discussion and i think there's lots of different ways this interaction can play out according to the rules. i definitely don't think there's any requirement, by the rules, to treat it one way or the other, so it's at the DM's discretion, and will vary table to table. I'm inclined, as i noted in my original post, to read the order of operations the way InquisitiveCoder does, but i also think this is a very good point:
which is very true and imposes a high potential opportunity cost on this as a tactic.
and to answer my own bonus question about it: i'd count the Drop Bear Gambit as the player's attack action, not their movement, and not let them take an additional attack action afterward.
I would agree with Lyxen. Figure out what damage the monk takes after slow fall and then split it.
I do recall playing a monk in AD&D where you did have to be near a wall, but 5 E doesn’t have that. I assume it is more akin to someone doing parkour where they jump down from fairly big heights but they know how to land and not injure themselves. But on a greater level for the monk since this is fantasy after all.
1. Figure out how much falling damage would be dealt in total.
2. Do this by figuring out how far the fall is.
3. Split this between the person falling and the person being fallen on... if they fail their save.
4. Then apply the monk's slow fall damage reduction.
The problem arises from not knowing how much damage the monk will take.
We first have to determine if the damage will be split between 2 creatures or just dealt to the monk.
The creature being fallen on must 1st make their saving throw, whether they succeed or fail will determine how much damage is dealt to the monk from the fall.
The monk's slow fall ability will not lessen the overall damage from the fall or any of the damage being dealt to the creature being fallen on. It can only lessen damage dealt to the monk.
As for the bonus question, falling isn't an attack action.
If you survive the fall you can use half your movement to stand up and your action to attack.
This is correct in the case of slow fall. And it was my mistake. I've been doing some things with older systems and forgot they took that requirement out of 5e. It was very fitting in older editions to work that way so my brain has stuck with it and I apologize.
However Mage Armor technically does still give you armor. It's just not physical. It's basically a weightless force construct. So it does technically still give you armor.
And shield originally actually started out as placing a momentary wall of force. The aspect of it making a ephemeral tower shield was added in much later. and now it's just evolved into kind of an amorphous magical effect described in lots of ways.
In an informal sense, yes. But not for the purposes of any rules that care about whether you're wearing armor or not.
Ultimately the names of features can give you some idea of what they do but they're not necessarily accurate. Another good example is the College of Sword's Blade Flourish, which doesn't require a sword or even a melee weapon, and its Slashing Flourish option works with any damage type. It's really tempting to extrapolate from the name you can only really count on the description.
one of the most valuable things you learn in aikido classes is how to take a fall or get thrown and minimize the impact. "slow fall" is just a name, and flavor-wise at least for my current character i look at this reaction as more about breath control, taking a good landing/roll, and blunting the impact to your body than it is a literal mystical reduction in the velocity of the fall. the fall creates a certain quantity of damage; the monk can just use the reaction to cancel out the damage.
The height of the fall determines how many d6 of damage to calculate the fall... I think there is a rule that says it maxes out at 20d6.
However much damage it is, if someone is underneath and being fallen on, then they have to make a saving throw.
If they make the save then the falling damage is all dealt to the monk and they can reduce it.
If they fail the save then the fall damage is divided between the two, and then the monk reduces some of the damage dealt to the monk only from the fall.
Whoever got landed on takes their full half of the damage and is knocked prone.
The person who fell can then spend half their movement to stand up and make any and all attacks against the prone creature who got landed on.
If we assume Aaracokra 20th level monk, they can fly up 80 ft, if they dash as action and use step of the wind that's 240 ft. If they had Boots of Speed and somebody used Haste on them they could get 1,120 feet up. So they can easily achieve the 20d6 max fall damage which is an average of 70. Slow fall would negate up to 120 pts of damage (max of 20d6 is 120, a monk of 20th level is literally immune to fall damage).
The monk would be free to do this every turn for 1 ki point for step of wind, if even needed. Anyone trying to abuse this would probably get the Athlete feat and so doesn't suffer the "half your movement" cost to get up from prone, just 5 ft of movement they could easily spare.
Slow Fall does not mention the means by which the damage reduction happens - and so even by RAW it's a pure DM call.
The RAI is very clear though: the enemy takes the same damage as the falling character, which is half the fall damage.
So isn't it best to say, regardless of rule interpretation: calculate fall damage, if slow fall is used, reduce that damage, split the remainder, if any, between the monk and the enemy - enemy gets to save to avoid it. Restricting dex saves is easy, and a co-ordinated party could easily help the monk with this - so if you ruled the reduction is only for the monk you're basically letting the monk increase average output from 22 average damage across 4 attacks, to average 35 damage from one dex save the enemy can be made to have disadvantage on, -1d4 to or even made to autofail.
Implementing the rule that slow fall reduces the damage for both would prevent any cheesy abuse of this. This was intended as a "hazard rule" not a wrestling move buff for monks.
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