I'm looking for a replacement for Thieve's Cant for a Swashbuckler swordsman rogue. He is a Shifter with the Gladiator background that is not at all a thief. In my experience Thieve's Cant is next to useless anyway, and thematically it doesn't jive with this character. I was told that if I can present an alternative with similar level of application, I could use it, but so far I'm coming up blank. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thieves' cant is very useful, you just have to teach it to the rest of the party first. It gives you the ability to relay information openly without giving it to people outside the group. It doesn't have to be thief based, anyone could have a reason to want to communicate information in code.
That would basically be teaching an entire party a new language, with all the time requirements associated with that. The majority of parties I've been in have one or more PCs with Message, Sending, or Awakened Mind anyway, which is not only silent, but 4 times faster.
Thieves' cant is very useful, you just have to teach it to the rest of the party first. It gives you the ability to relay information openly without giving it to people outside the group. It doesn't have to be thief based, anyone could have a reason to want to communicate information in code.
You can’t teach thieves cant to the rest of the party. By rule in thieves cant description, only other people that know thieves cant can understand thieves cant.
edit -
Thieves’ Cant
During your ROGUE training you learned thieves’ cant, a secret mix of dialect, jargon, and code that allows you to hide messages in seemingly normal conversation. Only another creature that KNOWS THIEVES’ CANT understands such messages. It takes four times longer to convey such a message than it does to speak the same idea plainly.
In addition, you understand a set of secret signs and symbols used to convey short, simple messages, such as whether an area is dangerous or the territory of a thieves’ guild, whether loot is nearby, or whether the people in an area are easy marks or will provide a safe house for thieves on the run.
I'm looking for a replacement for Thieve's Cant for a Swashbuckler swordsman rogue. He is a Shifter with the Gladiator background that is not at all a thief. In my experience Thieve's Cant is next to useless anyway, and thematically it doesn't jive with this character. I was told that if I can present an alternative with similar level of application, I could use it, but so far I'm coming up blank. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Yeah, thieves cants usefulness is completely dependent upon:
1. The dm
2. Other rogues
3. if you do anything with criminal guilds or spies or etc
if 2 and 3 don’t apply, you really need 1 to make it worth while. I myself personally enjoy it, and coordinate with dm if I am rogue, or rogues if I am dm, about how to “thieves cant” with one another.
do we do first letter of words, do we do “snaps”, do we reference specific books/movies/video games, etc.
in terms of something of similar use....
thats hard to say, if the DM uses it, it can be hard to replace, if he doesn’t, it can be worthless. A similar level of application... I guess would be...
... Homebrew it to where you can do illusory script? I guess?
edit - not the answer you’re hoping for. But it’s really not so simple to replace it. I have been in campaigns where make or break information was only attainable vi thieves’ cant. And I have been in campaigns where it literally was never used.
to find a balanced replacement for it, isn’t so easy.
What about giving the character the ability of a lv 7 battlemaster? Assessing opponents stats? Could tweak it a bit even to instead give you either: To-hit, reflex save or AC?
It is probably a bit more applicable, but still not something that disrupts anything.
You can’t teach thieves cant to the rest of the party. By rule in thieves cant description, only other people that know thieves cant can understand thieves cant.
edit -
Thieves’ Cant
During your ROGUE training you learned thieves’ cant...
The fact that you "learned" it during Rogue "training" implies that it can be taught, just like any other language. Regardless, I have no desire to that so the point is moot.
Yeah, thieves cants usefulness is completely dependent upon:
1. The dm
2. Other rogues
3. if you do anything with criminal guilds or spies or etc
if 2 and 3 don’t apply, you really need 1 to make it worth while. I myself personally enjoy it, and coordinate with dm if I am rogue, or rogues if I am dm, about how to “thieves cant” with one another.
do we do first letter of words, do we do “snaps”, do we reference specific books/movies/video games, etc.
in terms of something of similar use....
thats hard to say, if the DM uses it, it can be hard to replace, if he doesn’t, it can be worthless. A similar level of application... I guess would be...
... Homebrew it to where you can do illusory script? I guess?
edit - not the answer you’re hoping for. But it’s really not so simple to replace it. I have been in campaigns where make or break information was only attainable vi thieves’ cant. And I have been in campaigns where it literally was never used.
to find a balanced replacement for it, isn’t so easy.
This is my problem. I'm sure there are some DM's that use it extensively, but neither my current nor former DM's were thsoe guys. Illusory Script is a possibility, though I am playing him as a non magic user.
What about giving the character the ability of a lv 7 battlemaster? Assessing opponents stats? Could tweak it a bit even to instead give you either: To-hit, reflex save or AC?
It is probably a bit more applicable, but still not something that disrupts anything.
That seems a bit much for a level 1 ability. Not that I'm one to turn down any bonuses given, but I'm looking for something with similar usefulness as Thieve's Cant.
Unfortunately, Imay just either have to find a way to implement it, or consider it a wash and just let it go.
What about giving the character the ability of a lv 7 battlemaster? Assessing opponents stats? Could tweak it a bit even to instead give you either: To-hit, reflex save or AC?
It is probably a bit more applicable, but still not something that disrupts anything.
I'm looking for a replacement for Thieve's Cant for a Swashbuckler swordsman rogue. He is a Shifter with the Gladiator background that is not at all a thief. In my experience Thieve's Cant is next to useless anyway, and thematically it doesn't jive with this character. I was told that if I can present an alternative with similar level of application, I could use it, but so far I'm coming up blank. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Your equivalent could be pirate speak, parlay and har harr - being able to speak in a dialect that any sailor could pick up intuitively but outsiders wouldn't
With a gladiator background, your "Thieves" Cant could be the codes and shorthand and hand signals used by the gladiators, perhaps to send messages that they don't want the masters/owners/nobles/audience/trainers/etc to understand. Toss in a bit of communication while fighting in the arena to signal the "script" and who wins and loses and when to wrap up the fight and when to drag things out and when to pull out a surprise. (Assuming there's a bit of theatrics to gladiatorial combat)
As it happens, this Cant is mostly understood by other groups such as thieves and sailors and spies and whoever else takes the Rogue class.
With a gladiator background, your "Thieves" Cant could be the codes and shorthand and hand signals used by the gladiators, perhaps to send messages that they don't want the masters/owners/nobles/audience/trainers/etc to understand. Toss in a bit of communication while fighting in the arena to signal the "script" and who wins and loses and when to wrap up the fight and when to drag things out and when to pull out a surprise. (Assuming there's a bit of theatrics to gladiatorial combat)
As it happens, this Cant is mostly understood by other groups such as thieves and sailors and spies and whoever else takes the Rogue class.
So... what would you do to get rid of Druid speech for a gladiator Druid then?
honestly, if the thieves can’t skill feels useless. The best thing to do is talk to the DM to make it feel less useless. Because ultimately, it’s up to the DM to make sure you don’t feel like your skills are useless due to encounters and setting.
If the DMs not using it at all. That’s like letting a ranger pick a favored terrain that will NEVER come up.
Definitely talk to your GM about a replacement feature. One of my players is a Scout Rogue who is a member of a nomadic tribe, so she has zero proper thieves' training. I replaced thieves cant with the following ability:
Your tribe has taught you to commune with wild animals in order to transmit messages. You can command a small animal, such as a bird, squirrel, or mouse, to carry a small written message or a small package (less than one pound) to a location of your choosing within 3 days travel of your current location. Additionally, the creature can retrieve a message from the recipient and deliver it back to you.
For a swashbuckler rogue, especially with the gladiator feature, maybe you could replace thieves' cant with a fighting style? This may be a bit too powerful, however, so talk with the DM.
I'm looking for a replacement for Thieve's Cant for a Swashbuckler swordsman rogue. He is a Shifter with the Gladiator background that is not at all a thief. In my experience Thieve's Cant is next to useless anyway, and thematically it doesn't jive with this character. I was told that if I can present an alternative with similar level of application, I could use it, but so far I'm coming up blank. Any suggestions are appreciated.
I remembered a thread that had some nice application of Thieve's Cant.
Maybe you can find something in there that will inspire you? I know the "jargon" talk (the Ocean's one) is one I found to be hilarious :D
But a "similar level of application" is a hard one. It's just a language, that everyone can hear, but only a few would understand. Perhaps the said things won't make lots of sense, because it's all coded, but the ones privy to it would. In your setting, where you might be the only one in the know, it's a rough one. Maybe you could use bits of Cant to test if someone would know it (akin to the "Nice seeing a friendly faces here" in a video on the topic I linked above)...
Ultimately, and I know it's not quite the answer you look for, it's up to you and your DM to make it useful. In the campaign I'm playing, I'm teaching it to one character (only her) because she multiclassed to Rogue, kinda like getting an apprentice... Maybe invent your own coded language you could use with a teamate/partner, like baseball team's signs?
I'm looking for a replacement for Thieve's Cant for a Swashbuckler swordsman rogue. He is a Shifter with the Gladiator background that is not at all a thief. In my experience Thieve's Cant is next to useless anyway, and thematically it doesn't jive with this character. I was told that if I can present an alternative with similar level of application, I could use it, but so far I'm coming up blank. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thieves' cant is very useful, you just have to teach it to the rest of the party first. It gives you the ability to relay information openly without giving it to people outside the group. It doesn't have to be thief based, anyone could have a reason to want to communicate information in code.
That would basically be teaching an entire party a new language, with all the time requirements associated with that. The majority of parties I've been in have one or more PCs with Message, Sending, or Awakened Mind anyway, which is not only silent, but 4 times faster.
You can’t teach thieves cant to the rest of the party. By rule in thieves cant description, only other people that know thieves cant can understand thieves cant.
edit -
Thieves’ Cant
During your ROGUE training you learned thieves’ cant, a secret mix of dialect, jargon, and code that allows you to hide messages in seemingly normal conversation. Only another creature that KNOWS THIEVES’ CANT understands such messages. It takes four times longer to convey such a message than it does to speak the same idea plainly.
In addition, you understand a set of secret signs and symbols used to convey short, simple messages, such as whether an area is dangerous or the territory of a thieves’ guild, whether loot is nearby, or whether the people in an area are easy marks or will provide a safe house for thieves on the run.
Yeah, thieves cants usefulness is completely dependent upon:
1. The dm
2. Other rogues
3. if you do anything with criminal guilds or spies or etc
if 2 and 3 don’t apply, you really need 1 to make it worth while. I myself personally enjoy it, and coordinate with dm if I am rogue, or rogues if I am dm, about how to “thieves cant” with one another.
do we do first letter of words, do we do “snaps”, do we reference specific books/movies/video games, etc.
in terms of something of similar use....
thats hard to say, if the DM uses it, it can be hard to replace, if he doesn’t, it can be worthless. A similar level of application... I guess would be...
... Homebrew it to where you can do illusory script? I guess?
edit - not the answer you’re hoping for. But it’s really not so simple to replace it. I have been in campaigns where make or break information was only attainable vi thieves’ cant. And I have been in campaigns where it literally was never used.
to find a balanced replacement for it, isn’t so easy.
What about giving the character the ability of a lv 7 battlemaster? Assessing opponents stats? Could tweak it a bit even to instead give you either: To-hit, reflex save or AC?
It is probably a bit more applicable, but still not something that disrupts anything.
The fact that you "learned" it during Rogue "training" implies that it can be taught, just like any other language. Regardless, I have no desire to that so the point is moot.
This is my problem. I'm sure there are some DM's that use it extensively, but neither my current nor former DM's were thsoe guys. Illusory Script is a possibility, though I am playing him as a non magic user.
That seems a bit much for a level 1 ability. Not that I'm one to turn down any bonuses given, but I'm looking for something with similar usefulness as Thieve's Cant.
Unfortunately, Imay just either have to find a way to implement it, or consider it a wash and just let it go.
That’s a
level 9 inquisitor rogue ability too...
You could ask for a different language or a tool kit proficiency.
Your equivalent could be pirate speak, parlay and har harr - being able to speak in a dialect that any sailor could pick up intuitively but outsiders wouldn't
Indie Developer
So that Thieve's chant is more related to the mimical expressions done by both hands, right ??????
Hmmmmm.... I guess someone here suffers some deafness..... so let's learn that ""Language "".
xDD
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Actually, I am mostly deaf, but your joke is suuuuuuuuper funny.
With a gladiator background, your "Thieves" Cant could be the codes and shorthand and hand signals used by the gladiators, perhaps to send messages that they don't want the masters/owners/nobles/audience/trainers/etc to understand. Toss in a bit of communication while fighting in the arena to signal the "script" and who wins and loses and when to wrap up the fight and when to drag things out and when to pull out a surprise. (Assuming there's a bit of theatrics to gladiatorial combat)
As it happens, this Cant is mostly understood by other groups such as thieves and sailors and spies and whoever else takes the Rogue class.
So... what would you do to get rid of Druid speech for a gladiator Druid then?
honestly, if the thieves can’t skill feels useless. The best thing to do is talk to the DM to make it feel less useless. Because ultimately, it’s up to the DM to make sure you don’t feel like your skills are useless due to encounters and setting.
If the DMs not using it at all. That’s like letting a ranger pick a favored terrain that will NEVER come up.
Blank
Definitely talk to your GM about a replacement feature. One of my players is a Scout Rogue who is a member of a nomadic tribe, so she has zero proper thieves' training. I replaced thieves cant with the following ability:
Your tribe has taught you to commune with wild animals in order to transmit messages. You can command a small animal, such as a bird, squirrel, or mouse, to carry a small written message or a small package (less than one pound) to a location of your choosing within 3 days travel of your current location. Additionally, the creature can retrieve a message from the recipient and deliver it back to you.
For a swashbuckler rogue, especially with the gladiator feature, maybe you could replace thieves' cant with a fighting style? This may be a bit too powerful, however, so talk with the DM.
I remembered a thread that had some nice application of Thieve's Cant.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/129227-so-what-does-thieves-cant-sound-like
Maybe you can find something in there that will inspire you?
I know the "jargon" talk (the Ocean's one) is one I found to be hilarious :D
But a "similar level of application" is a hard one.
It's just a language, that everyone can hear, but only a few would understand. Perhaps the said things won't make lots of sense, because it's all coded, but the ones privy to it would. In your setting, where you might be the only one in the know, it's a rough one. Maybe you could use bits of Cant to test if someone would know it (akin to the "Nice seeing a friendly faces here" in a video on the topic I linked above)...
Ultimately, and I know it's not quite the answer you look for, it's up to you and your DM to make it useful.
In the campaign I'm playing, I'm teaching it to one character (only her) because she multiclassed to Rogue, kinda like getting an apprentice...
Maybe invent your own coded language you could use with a teamate/partner, like baseball team's signs?
Hyrkali
Full DNDBeyond.com in Dark Mode? Yes please!