One issue I've been running into a lot in my games are bottlenecks in doorways. One PC and one enemy trade blows in the doorway, while the others stack up behind them trying to get ranged attacks. On the one hand, it's probably a fairly accurate depiction of what would happen, but on the other hand, it makes combat kinda boring and results in extra melee attackers sitting around wasting their turn. I'd like for some way for the enemies to break through the defensive line, but in rules as written you can't push a creature into another creature's square.
I'm considering a "mob press" option, where three or more enemies can work together to push back a crowd of PCs. Everyone rolls athletics checks, highest total wins. If the pushing side wins, everyone on the pushed side gets bumped back a square to make space. Thoughts? Comments? Has anyone here tried something like this before?
I think it sounds fine. Straight collective athletic checks, plus +5 per additional body compared to opposing team. So one barbarian could roll their Athletics opposed to goblin A+goblin B+5, or the fighter+barbarian could roll against lizard A+lizard B... etc. Winner team pushes enemy team back 5 squares in same direction or prone...
Something like that. Messy and not RAW, but sounds fun
but in rules as written you can't push a creature into another creature's square.
This isn't true. The only rule along those lines states that "Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space". Being pushed into another creature's space isn't willingly ending your move in it. So a monster could shove the bottleneck player into the space behind them (even if it is occupied), then step up to fill the void.
There are other things that can also help to avoid the "bottleneck" issue.
Apply cover rules as written. Many DMs forget to do this, but it really helps to discourage bottlenecking as a strategy. If your fighter is blocking the doorway, then he is also providing half cover for every enemy in the room. Your ranged attackers are all going to take an effective -2 penalty to their attack rolls.
Give players a reason to enter the room. An objective at the far end (like a hostage, or a ritual that needs disrupting, or an enemy that is going to escape and call for backup) will greatly help. If players have no reason to be aggressive, then it makes sense for them to take up a defensive stance. You don't need to do this in every single fight, but its a great way to mix things up.
Occasionally throw in a couple enemies with AoE attacks. It doesn't have to be all the time, but it only takes one bad lightning bolt to the entire party before your players start to realize the benefits of spreading out every once in a while.
but in rules as written you can't push a creature into another creature's square.
This isn't true. The only rule along those lines states that "Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space". Being pushed into another creature's space isn't willingly ending your move in it. So a monster could shove the bottleneck player into the space behind them (even if it is occupied), then step up to fill the void.
That actually brings up another point I had considered. If it is possible to have two creatures in the same space due to unwilling movement, how does that affect them until one of them moves? I considered having disadvantage on all checks, attacks, and dex/str saving throws, and advantage on all attacks against them, but was worried that was too harsh.
One option is to have the monsters use grappling if it makes sense. Often it is the monsters that may not have ranged options so instead of just having the one at the front make their attacks and have the rest stand around ... it instead tries to grapple the creature in the doorway and then drags it out of the room to a spot where multiple attackers can hit it or opens a path into the room with the party.
I had this happen in an encounter where several vampire spawn were trying to fight the party who were in a room with only a single doorway in and the tank in the door had protection from good and evil making it very difficult to hit them while the rest of the party attacked with range attacks or save spells. One of the vampire spawn ran out of the building to try to get in the window and after a few mostly ineffective attacks the spawn at the front decided to try grappling. Eventually they succeeded and could then move the creature blocking the doorway at 1/2 speed which then let most of the rest of the vampire spawn into the room to attack everyone who had been safely using ranged attacks. The party's sudden change in attitude and increase in worry were fun to watch as a challenging but trivial combat due to the setup changed into a much riskier one on a failed grapple check.
If you're the DM you could always stop putting them in spaces where they keep bottlenecking at doors. As a DM this is completely within your control by having your adventures in spaces better for combat. Not all hallways are so thin, not all doorways are standing one-person-at-a-time. Try outdoor battles. Or large caverns. The deck of a ship. The ocean floor. Give them all temporary flying and battle in the sky.
If this happening so often it becomes a pressing issue (yay puns!) then that's a DM limitation. And if the party are all melee focused, they must either embrace bottlenecks for this or stop engaging enemies in these spaces. If the group isn't having fun because the same scenario keeps happening the DM and party need to work together to change things.
RAW, there are no explicit disadvantages. The characters are simply considered to be in difficult terrain, much like if they were standing in thick foliage. The penalties you describe sound very harsh, especially since characters can't willingly move onto each other in order to create this scenario.
Overrun: When a creature tries to move through a hostile creature’s space, the mover can try to force its way through by overrunning the hostile creature. As an action or a bonus action, the mover makes a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the hostile creature’s Strength (Athletics) check. The creature attempting the overrun has advantage on this check if it is larger than the hostile creature, or disadvantage if it is smaller. If the mover wins the contest, it can move through the hostile creature’s space once this turn.
It uses a Monster’s bonus action which is usually worthless, so feel free to try and run through the low-Str characters in the way as much as you want.
2) as someone noted above - grapple and pull. Pull just one person into the monster’s room. Now the doorway has become a bottleneck for the PCs instead of the monsters. If you have a tiny goblin and a brutish owlbear at the door, get the goblin to help action for the owlbear, assuring your strategy works.
3) AOE spells past the doorway are gonna hit everyone.
One issue I've been running into a lot in my games are bottlenecks in doorways. One PC and one enemy trade blows in the doorway, while the others stack up behind them trying to get ranged attacks. On the one hand, it's probably a fairly accurate depiction of what would happen, but on the other hand, it makes combat kinda boring and results in extra melee attackers sitting around wasting their turn. I'd like for some way for the enemies to break through the defensive line, but in rules as written you can't push a creature into another creature's square.
I'm considering a "mob press" option, where three or more enemies can work together to push back a crowd of PCs. Everyone rolls athletics checks, highest total wins. If the pushing side wins, everyone on the pushed side gets bumped back a square to make space. Thoughts? Comments? Has anyone here tried something like this before?
I think it sounds fine. Straight collective athletic checks, plus +5 per additional body compared to opposing team. So one barbarian could roll their Athletics opposed to goblin A+goblin B+5, or the fighter+barbarian could roll against lizard A+lizard B... etc. Winner team pushes enemy team back 5 squares in same direction or prone...
Something like that. Messy and not RAW, but sounds fun
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I might go with a shove aside option.
Other melee fighters could be making attacks against 3/4 cover from the sides of the door.
And the archers targets have half cover from shooting aver their friends. Make sure you arent making it too easy.
This isn't true. The only rule along those lines states that "Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space". Being pushed into another creature's space isn't willingly ending your move in it. So a monster could shove the bottleneck player into the space behind them (even if it is occupied), then step up to fill the void.
There are other things that can also help to avoid the "bottleneck" issue.
That actually brings up another point I had considered. If it is possible to have two creatures in the same space due to unwilling movement, how does that affect them until one of them moves? I considered having disadvantage on all checks, attacks, and dex/str saving throws, and advantage on all attacks against them, but was worried that was too harsh.
One option is to have the monsters use grappling if it makes sense. Often it is the monsters that may not have ranged options so instead of just having the one at the front make their attacks and have the rest stand around ... it instead tries to grapple the creature in the doorway and then drags it out of the room to a spot where multiple attackers can hit it or opens a path into the room with the party.
I had this happen in an encounter where several vampire spawn were trying to fight the party who were in a room with only a single doorway in and the tank in the door had protection from good and evil making it very difficult to hit them while the rest of the party attacked with range attacks or save spells. One of the vampire spawn ran out of the building to try to get in the window and after a few mostly ineffective attacks the spawn at the front decided to try grappling. Eventually they succeeded and could then move the creature blocking the doorway at 1/2 speed which then let most of the rest of the vampire spawn into the room to attack everyone who had been safely using ranged attacks. The party's sudden change in attitude and increase in worry were fun to watch as a challenging but trivial combat due to the setup changed into a much riskier one on a failed grapple check.
If you're the DM you could always stop putting them in spaces where they keep bottlenecking at doors. As a DM this is completely within your control by having your adventures in spaces better for combat. Not all hallways are so thin, not all doorways are standing one-person-at-a-time. Try outdoor battles. Or large caverns. The deck of a ship. The ocean floor. Give them all temporary flying and battle in the sky.
If this happening so often it becomes a pressing issue (yay puns!) then that's a DM limitation. And if the party are all melee focused, they must either embrace bottlenecks for this or stop engaging enemies in these spaces. If the group isn't having fun because the same scenario keeps happening the DM and party need to work together to change things.
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RAW, there are no explicit disadvantages. The characters are simply considered to be in difficult terrain, much like if they were standing in thick foliage. The penalties you describe sound very harsh, especially since characters can't willingly move onto each other in order to create this scenario.
If you allow creature to occupy the same space, you can consider imposing squeezing rules (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/combat#CreatureSize)
David42, I love your grappling idea. I was so concerned with pushing I forgot about pulling!
1) combat options in the DMG are GREAT for this.
Specifically:
Overrun: When a creature tries to move through a hostile creature’s space, the mover can try to force its way through by overrunning the hostile creature. As an action or a bonus action, the mover makes a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the hostile creature’s Strength (Athletics) check. The creature attempting the overrun has advantage on this check if it is larger than the hostile creature, or disadvantage if it is smaller. If the mover wins the contest, it can move through the hostile creature’s space once this turn.
It uses a Monster’s bonus action which is usually worthless, so feel free to try and run through the low-Str characters in the way as much as you want.
2) as someone noted above - grapple and pull. Pull just one person into the monster’s room. Now the doorway has become a bottleneck for the PCs instead of the monsters. If you have a tiny goblin and a brutish owlbear at the door, get the goblin to help action for the owlbear, assuring your strategy works.
3) AOE spells past the doorway are gonna hit everyone.