Is it possible to surprise (or to be surprised) once combat has started?
Looking at the basic rules the decision about surprise happens before initiative is rolled and, once initiative is determined, the rounds continue in turn order until the encounter is completed. There is no new check or opportunity for surprise to take place.
What does that mean for a character that is successfully stealthing or that is invisible vs opponents that do not have blind fighting/see invisible/etc. or characters/monsters that join the encounter after it begins?
Is it a matter of DM decision or is it not possible to get surprise once the encounter starts running in initiative order?
Surprise is only for the very start of combat. It is for characters who aren't aware of any danger at all. Once combat starts, while a character might not be aware of every single enemy in the fight, it is at least aware that there is a fight happening. Reinforcements or additional hidden enemies won't be able to surprise anyone, mechanically.
What does that mean for a character that is successfully stealthing or that is invisible vs opponents that do not have blind fighting/see invisible/etc. or characters/monsters that join the encounter after it begins?
If a character is invisible/hidden, they would benefit from being an "unseen attacker". They would have advantage on any attacks they make. Remember that attacking does reveal your position and stop you from being hidden, and it might break your invisibility, depending on how you became invisible (See invisibility vs greater invisibility).
So a rogue assassin would not benefit from surprise unless they attack before initiative is rolled, Is that correct?
Not really. Assassinate give you advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in combat yet, but you have to be on your turn to attack.
I think that once the combat has started and the rounds are being counted down, there is no other suprise "round".
But you may remember that surprise is just a special situation when a combat starts and some creatures may not be aware of the threat. So, what happens is that "surprised" creatures can't benefit from an actual turn (it can't take actions, reactions or move in that "round"). Before the actual rounds start, there's no way for a surprise round happens becouse the threat is already clear.
You may ask yourself "but if another group joins the battle after the start and the PC party or its foes (or both) aren't aware, would the joining group benefit from a surprise round?" The answare is no. The fighting groups may be "surprised" by the joining threat, however, they are already aware from the frist threat and can't have move/action/reaction denied to deal with the first threat. In that case, you may compare stealth checks and passive perception to determine if the fighting group notice the new ones approach, but they would benefit being "unseen attackers" as much as a rogue that hide during a combat turn.
So a rogue assassin would not benefit from surprise unless they attack before initiative is rolled, Is that correct?
Generally speaking, by the RAW, attacks should not be made outside initiative. That's why the Assassination ability only affects the 1st turn, where they have advantage is going before the target and get auto-crits if they are surprised (and surprise only happens for the first round of initiative).
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One thing to keep in mind is that "Surprise" is not "I didn't know that creature was there" ... "Surprise" is "I didn't know there was any danger at all out there".
For example, if you are exploring a dungeon, you generally won't be surprised by anything you find since although you don't know the monster is there, you are expecting danger and thus are alert for it. It doesn't get surprise since as soon as you see it you are ready for it.
A DM could rule an exception if an attack came from an unusual direction or was made by something like a mimic that that the character took for the actual object or an invisible creature that the characters are unaware of. In all these cases, characters could be surprised because their surroundings turn out to be unsafe when they thought otherwise.
However, in the midst of combat, the characters are paying attention to even the small details, they are always moving, dodging, attacking and blocking - even a creature they can't see isn't going to surprise them since they are expecting something even if they don't know what. This is why surprise can only apply during the first round of combat and only for threats that the character was unaware of and unprepared for.
Surprise can be relatively hard to obtain in 5e which is why the assassin ability can be a bit of a trap since it is typically difficult to activate.
Anyway, to the OP, RAW, surprise only occurs during the first round of combat after initiative is rolled. The assassinate ability applies only to creatures who are surprised and have not yet had their initiative on the first round of combat. One of the better builds to try to maximize the chances for Assassinate are a 5 gloomstalker ranger/ X assassin rogue with the Alert feat. Initiative modifier is dex+wis+5 so should be at least +11 and likely +13. Attacking in darkness makes the character invisible and being stealthy makes them very hard to notice thus maximizing the chances that they might surprise the opponents on the first round of combat. Finally, the gloomstalker gets an extra first round attack with an extra damage die which synergizes well IF the character can manage to get surprise.
One thing to keep in mind is that "Surprise" is not "I didn't know that creature was there" ... "Surprise" is "I didn't know there was any danger at all out there".
For example, if you are exploring a dungeon, you generally won't be surprised by anything you find since although you don't know the monster is there, you are expecting danger and thus are alert for it.
You can be surprised in a dungeon or wilderness even if you expect some danger as it occur when you don't notice a threat. Dungeon is even mentioned as one of the setting exemple.
Surprise can be relatively hard to obtain in 5e which is why the assassin ability can be a bit of a trap since it is typically difficult to activate.
Yea an Assassin Rogue that wants to maximize its use of that ability really need to move ahead/outside of the party picking of sentries or similar. It is, both thematically and mechanically an ability best suited for one v one situations, not for group v group situations which means that in some (many?) campaigns it is of limited use.
Surprise can be relatively hard to obtain in 5e which is why the assassin ability can be a bit of a trap since it is typically difficult to activate.
Yea an Assassin Rogue that wants to maximize its use of that ability really need to move ahead/outside of the party picking of sentries or similar. It is, both thematically and mechanically an ability best suited for one v one situations, not for group v group situations which means that in some (many?) campaigns it is of limited use.
I dont thin surprise are hard to obtain in 5e, In fact close to 90% of the encounters i play (as GM or Player) have surprise rounds. I mean, it can be the way we set sessions at my tables, but I don't see nothing unusual we make that would make us an exception. We may remember that surprise where determinatad by character in the scene, so even when most of the characters (pc and npc) were aware from the threat, maybe some could be surprised.
Anyway, thats a very situational feat that relies on the archtype of the Assassin Rogue. It intends to make a good char themed as a "court infiltrator/ assassin". So, thematically they fit very nice on urban encounters and 1x1 situation, but I don't see too much loss of that ability in group situations and even when its not an urban encounter. Its a feature that allows a rogue to make good strikes at the start, potentially killing a foe in one blow (perfect for a assassin in a court).
I dont think it needs much maximizations becouse its already a fkn feat. That allows a big mess in the begining of an encounter and it would be gamebreaking if it where possible to use more times. The way a rogue can make a better use of it is to have a good stealth bonus and initiative bonus, and also play as a sneaky foe and try to always be apart of the group in a safe distance in order to don't be seen together. Keeping in mind that in surprise round some may be surprised but some not, an assassin rogue have even more chances to get a target to that feature, as each roll are made individually.
Let me gave an exemple of a big mess: Last session I DM I made an encounter for my group that envolves an Assassin (creature) that have that feat. The encounter was set during night, in an alley where the group were pursuing 3 other foes. I've place the assassin hiden in a building corner and the group was aware only of the other foes and as a rush out of initiative order becouse wasan't a fight yet. The group were sepatated (bad choices from them) and two were running that alley and enter the assassin range, so I ask both perception check to notice the assassin. Both fail, so both were surprised. The assassin got a good position in initiative order becouse of its dex mod and could chose any of the players to shot. (if it were in meele it maybe could have hit both with its multiattack).
The results were: First(surprise) round the assassin got a crit granted by assassinate and put down to death saves the first PC. Than we got to the second round and the assassin hide and the second PC go to stabilize the other one. Third round, the assassin got a crit rolling with advantage for hidding, 105 dmg total (including sneack attack and poison from its bolts) and make a instakill. The rounds still being count as the rest of the party were running far behing, but the assassing goes away becouse he had accomplished what he wants and I also wasn't wanting to make a TPK there.
I mean, if the assassin could benefit from assassinate beyond the first round. that instakill situation would be possible almost the entire encounter if well used by the player (or the DM in the case of the NPC). It would be a big mess stoped only by a grave cleric of 6th lvl or higher (because of its Sentinel's at Deaths Door cancelation of crits).
The results were: First(surprise) round the assassin got a crit granted by assassinate and put down to death saves the first PC. Than we got to the second round and the assassin hide and the second PC go to stabilize the other one. Third round, the assassin got a crit rolling with advantage for hidding, 105 dmg total (including sneack attack and poison from its bolts) and make a instakill. The rounds still being count as the rest of the party were running far behing, but the assassing goes away becouse he had accomplished what he wants and I also wasn't wanting to make a TPK there.
What did you roll to get that damage? It should be 2d8+15d6+3 total, (assuming failed save) damage range is 20-109, heavily weighted towards the middle.
What did you roll to get that damage? It should be 2d8+15d6+3 total, (assuming failed save) damage range is 20-109, heavily weighted towards the middle.
That 105 points of dmg was from a crit (double the dices) and it had advantage as unseen attacker (becouse it use its action to hide sucessfully in the previous round) so Sneak Attack (8d6) + Light Crossbow (2d8+3) + Poison from crossbow (14d6 and failed save). It was the [creature]Assassin[/creature] creature from basic rules.
So, with sneak attack it put the range between 27 and 151 and yeah I rolled really well, the avarage for that would be 89 and 105 is a 1% chance as I check here at dice.clockworkmod.
Regardless if it was an avarage roll it would still be a one hit instakill for that char (I felt bad for that crit).
Regardless if it was an avarage roll it would still be a one hit instakill for that char (I felt bad for that crit).
I felt bad becouse it was a special participation in the table from a previous adventure (and also a half-orc so that istakill didn't let him use its relentless endurance lol) but in the end it was a poetic participation for him.
What did you roll to get that damage? It should be 2d8+15d6+3 total, (assuming failed save) damage range is 20-109, heavily weighted towards the middle.
That 105 points of dmg was from a crit (double the dices) and it had advantage as unseen attacker (becouse it use its action to hide sucessfully in the previous round) so Sneak Attack (8d6) + Light Crossbow (2d8+3) + Poison from crossbow (14d6 and failed save). It was the [creature]Assassin[/creature] creature from basic rules.
Poison damage isn't doubled on a crit since it's dependent on a save.
Poison damage isn't doubled on a crit since it's dependent on a save.
Yeah? I even asked the one player that also DMs and we take the conclusion that any dice rolled would be doubled becouse its all part of the same attack. I'll go check this, but I see that I may have mistaken that.
Poison damage isn't doubled on a crit since it's dependent on a save.
Yeah? I even asked the one player that also DMs and we take the conclusion that any dice rolled would be doubled becouse its all part of the same attack. I'll go check this, but I see that I may have mistaken that.
All damage that is part of the same attack is doubled. The poison has a save, it isn't part of the same attack.
All damage that is part of the same attack is doubled. The poison has a save, it isn't part of the same attack.
I've search and havn't found nothing in the PHB that make it clear. We have assume that becouse of that description on critical hits:
For example, if you score a critical hit with a dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage, rather than 1d4, and then add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well.
Well, the poison damage dice were involved by the attack becouse it needs to hit to be rolled and the save don't deny the roll but stands to the body reaction to the damage, so I can see it CLEARLY as not a part of the same attack.
However, now having this conversation, I see your point and think its valid, also I check some discussions and it seems to be a consense. I'm not well convinced that its clear and wouldn't say "thats the way". I think its more a "important guy said" situation (I mean, the other forums I saw not about your arguments) for a not covered point BUT I trust it have a good justification. Also, I don't see too much a unbalancing situation that would deserve heated discutions (as some I saw in redit lol) to get a definite decision.
@CptnMulligan DMG Poisons: If you crit with a poison coated weapon, do you double poison dice because crit, or not because saving throw?
@JeremyECrawford The intent is no. The saving throw, not the attack, determines whether the poison takes effect after a hit.
Yep. I saw that comment.
What I meant is that there's no clarification on that matter in the books but a tt comment from a dev. I think thats a valid point to rule as the dev has commented but all that time that I've been playing I never pay attention on devs tt you know and what I have was that interpretation on what the books says.
Now that this matters come into the table I'll gonna check with my players what we gona do about that topic at our table.
I don't see a problem for the game to be ruled that it doubles in a crit, I also can make a good explanation "a crit got more damage because it hits you in a vulnerable point (which makes also the poison spread easaly through your veins)". But in either that's up to the group to decide and I'm up to what the majority of the table think that works better.
At the and, by RAW, there's no right or wrong way to play according to golden rule.
Is it possible to surprise (or to be surprised) once combat has started?
Looking at the basic rules the decision about surprise happens before initiative is rolled and, once initiative is determined, the rounds continue in turn order until the encounter is completed. There is no new check or opportunity for surprise to take place.
What does that mean for a character that is successfully stealthing or that is invisible vs opponents that do not have blind fighting/see invisible/etc. or characters/monsters that join the encounter after it begins?
Is it a matter of DM decision or is it not possible to get surprise once the encounter starts running in initiative order?
Surprise is only for the very start of combat. It is for characters who aren't aware of any danger at all. Once combat starts, while a character might not be aware of every single enemy in the fight, it is at least aware that there is a fight happening. Reinforcements or additional hidden enemies won't be able to surprise anyone, mechanically.
If a character is invisible/hidden, they would benefit from being an "unseen attacker". They would have advantage on any attacks they make. Remember that attacking does reveal your position and stop you from being hidden, and it might break your invisibility, depending on how you became invisible (See invisibility vs greater invisibility).
So a rogue assassin would not benefit from surprise unless they attack before initiative is rolled, Is that correct?
Not really. Assassinate give you advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in combat yet, but you have to be on your turn to attack.
I think that once the combat has started and the rounds are being counted down, there is no other suprise "round".
But you may remember that surprise is just a special situation when a combat starts and some creatures may not be aware of the threat. So, what happens is that "surprised" creatures can't benefit from an actual turn (it can't take actions, reactions or move in that "round"). Before the actual rounds start, there's no way for a surprise round happens becouse the threat is already clear.
You may ask yourself "but if another group joins the battle after the start and the PC party or its foes (or both) aren't aware, would the joining group benefit from a surprise round?" The answare is no. The fighting groups may be "surprised" by the joining threat, however, they are already aware from the frist threat and can't have move/action/reaction denied to deal with the first threat. In that case, you may compare stealth checks and passive perception to determine if the fighting group notice the new ones approach, but they would benefit being "unseen attackers" as much as a rogue that hide during a combat turn.
Generally speaking, by the RAW, attacks should not be made outside initiative. That's why the Assassination ability only affects the 1st turn, where they have advantage is going before the target and get auto-crits if they are surprised (and surprise only happens for the first round of initiative).
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
One thing to keep in mind is that "Surprise" is not "I didn't know that creature was there" ... "Surprise" is "I didn't know there was any danger at all out there".
For example, if you are exploring a dungeon, you generally won't be surprised by anything you find since although you don't know the monster is there, you are expecting danger and thus are alert for it. It doesn't get surprise since as soon as you see it you are ready for it.
A DM could rule an exception if an attack came from an unusual direction or was made by something like a mimic that that the character took for the actual object or an invisible creature that the characters are unaware of. In all these cases, characters could be surprised because their surroundings turn out to be unsafe when they thought otherwise.
However, in the midst of combat, the characters are paying attention to even the small details, they are always moving, dodging, attacking and blocking - even a creature they can't see isn't going to surprise them since they are expecting something even if they don't know what. This is why surprise can only apply during the first round of combat and only for threats that the character was unaware of and unprepared for.
Surprise can be relatively hard to obtain in 5e which is why the assassin ability can be a bit of a trap since it is typically difficult to activate.
Anyway, to the OP, RAW, surprise only occurs during the first round of combat after initiative is rolled. The assassinate ability applies only to creatures who are surprised and have not yet had their initiative on the first round of combat. One of the better builds to try to maximize the chances for Assassinate are a 5 gloomstalker ranger/ X assassin rogue with the Alert feat. Initiative modifier is dex+wis+5 so should be at least +11 and likely +13. Attacking in darkness makes the character invisible and being stealthy makes them very hard to notice thus maximizing the chances that they might surprise the opponents on the first round of combat. Finally, the gloomstalker gets an extra first round attack with an extra damage die which synergizes well IF the character can manage to get surprise.
It's easier to understand if you replace "surprised" with "flatfooted."
You can be surprised in a dungeon or wilderness even if you expect some danger as it occur when you don't notice a threat. Dungeon is even mentioned as one of the setting exemple.
Yea an Assassin Rogue that wants to maximize its use of that ability really need to move ahead/outside of the party picking of sentries or similar. It is, both thematically and mechanically an ability best suited for one v one situations, not for group v group situations which means that in some (many?) campaigns it is of limited use.
I dont thin surprise are hard to obtain in 5e, In fact close to 90% of the encounters i play (as GM or Player) have surprise rounds. I mean, it can be the way we set sessions at my tables, but I don't see nothing unusual we make that would make us an exception. We may remember that surprise where determinatad by character in the scene, so even when most of the characters (pc and npc) were aware from the threat, maybe some could be surprised.
Anyway, thats a very situational feat that relies on the archtype of the Assassin Rogue. It intends to make a good char themed as a "court infiltrator/ assassin". So, thematically they fit very nice on urban encounters and 1x1 situation, but I don't see too much loss of that ability in group situations and even when its not an urban encounter. Its a feature that allows a rogue to make good strikes at the start, potentially killing a foe in one blow (perfect for a assassin in a court).
I dont think it needs much maximizations becouse its already a fkn feat. That allows a big mess in the begining of an encounter and it would be gamebreaking if it where possible to use more times. The way a rogue can make a better use of it is to have a good stealth bonus and initiative bonus, and also play as a sneaky foe and try to always be apart of the group in a safe distance in order to don't be seen together. Keeping in mind that in surprise round some may be surprised but some not, an assassin rogue have even more chances to get a target to that feature, as each roll are made individually.
Let me gave an exemple of a big mess: Last session I DM I made an encounter for my group that envolves an Assassin (creature) that have that feat. The encounter was set during night, in an alley where the group were pursuing 3 other foes. I've place the assassin hiden in a building corner and the group was aware only of the other foes and as a rush out of initiative order becouse wasan't a fight yet. The group were sepatated (bad choices from them) and two were running that alley and enter the assassin range, so I ask both perception check to notice the assassin. Both fail, so both were surprised. The assassin got a good position in initiative order becouse of its dex mod and could chose any of the players to shot. (if it were in meele it maybe could have hit both with its multiattack).
The results were: First(surprise) round the assassin got a crit granted by assassinate and put down to death saves the first PC. Than we got to the second round and the assassin hide and the second PC go to stabilize the other one. Third round, the assassin got a crit rolling with advantage for hidding, 105 dmg total (including sneack attack and poison from its bolts) and make a instakill. The rounds still being count as the rest of the party were running far behing, but the assassing goes away becouse he had accomplished what he wants and I also wasn't wanting to make a TPK there.
I mean, if the assassin could benefit from assassinate beyond the first round. that instakill situation would be possible almost the entire encounter if well used by the player (or the DM in the case of the NPC). It would be a big mess stoped only by a grave cleric of 6th lvl or higher (because of its Sentinel's at Deaths Door cancelation of crits).
What did you roll to get that damage? It should be 2d8+15d6+3 total, (assuming failed save) damage range is 20-109, heavily weighted towards the middle.
That 105 points of dmg was from a crit (double the dices) and it had advantage as unseen attacker (becouse it use its action to hide sucessfully in the previous round) so Sneak Attack (8d6) + Light Crossbow (2d8+3) + Poison from crossbow (14d6 and failed save). It was the [creature]Assassin[/creature] creature from basic rules.
So, with sneak attack it put the range between 27 and 151 and yeah I rolled really well, the avarage for that would be 89 and 105 is a 1% chance as I check here at dice.clockworkmod.
Regardless if it was an avarage roll it would still be a one hit instakill for that char (I felt bad for that crit).
I felt bad becouse it was a special participation in the table from a previous adventure (and also a half-orc so that istakill didn't let him use its relentless endurance lol) but in the end it was a poetic participation for him.
Poison damage isn't doubled on a crit since it's dependent on a save.
Yeah? I even asked the one player that also DMs and we take the conclusion that any dice rolled would be doubled becouse its all part of the same attack. I'll go check this, but I see that I may have mistaken that.
All damage that is part of the same attack is doubled. The poison has a save, it isn't part of the same attack.
I've search and havn't found nothing in the PHB that make it clear. We have assume that becouse of that description on critical hits:
For example, if you score a critical hit with a dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage, rather than 1d4, and then add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well.
Well, the poison damage dice were involved by the attack becouse it needs to hit to be rolled and the save don't deny the roll but stands to the body reaction to the damage, so I can see it CLEARLY as not a part of the same attack.
However, now having this conversation, I see your point and think its valid, also I check some discussions and it seems to be a consense. I'm not well convinced that its clear and wouldn't say "thats the way". I think its more a "important guy said" situation (I mean, the other forums I saw not about your arguments) for a not covered point BUT I trust it have a good justification. Also, I don't see too much a unbalancing situation that would deserve heated discutions (as some I saw in redit lol) to get a definite decision.
Poison as such are not intended to be extra damage on a crit. A Dev also confirmed it on Twitter; https://twitter.com/CptnMulligan/status/536173655739621376?s=20
@CptnMulligan DMG Poisons: If you crit with a poison coated weapon, do you double poison dice because crit, or not because saving throw?
@JeremyECrawford The intent is no. The saving throw, not the attack, determines whether the poison takes effect after a hit.
Yep. I saw that comment.
What I meant is that there's no clarification on that matter in the books but a tt comment from a dev. I think thats a valid point to rule as the dev has commented but all that time that I've been playing I never pay attention on devs tt you know and what I have was that interpretation on what the books says.
Now that this matters come into the table I'll gonna check with my players what we gona do about that topic at our table.
I don't see a problem for the game to be ruled that it doubles in a crit, I also can make a good explanation "a crit got more damage because it hits you in a vulnerable point (which makes also the poison spread easaly through your veins)". But in either that's up to the group to decide and I'm up to what the majority of the table think that works better.
At the and, by RAW, there's no right or wrong way to play according to golden rule.