Surprise can be relatively hard to obtain in 5e which is why the assassin ability can be a bit of a trap since it is typically difficult to activate.
Yea an Assassin Rogue that wants to maximize its use of that ability really need to move ahead/outside of the party picking of sentries or similar. It is, both thematically and mechanically an ability best suited for one v one situations, not for group v group situations which means that in some (many?) campaigns it is of limited use.
I dont thin surprise are hard to obtain in 5e, In fact close to 90% of the encounters i play (as GM or Player) have surprise rounds. There is no such thing as Surprise rounds anymore. If you simply mean Surprise at the start of combat, they are completely different things. I mean, it can be the way we set sessions at my tables, but I don't see nothing unusual we make that would make us an exception. We may remember that surprise where determinatad by character in the scene, so even when most of the characters (pc and npc) were aware from the threat, maybe some could be surprised.
Anyway, thats a very situational feat that relies on the archtype of the Assassin Rogue. It intends to make a good char themed as a "court infiltrator/ assassin". So, thematically they fit very nice on urban encounters and 1x1 situation, but I don't see too much loss of that ability in group situations and even when its not an urban encounter. Its a feature that allows a rogue to make good strikes at the start, potentially killing a foe in one blow (perfect for a assassin in a court).
I dont think it needs much maximizations becouse its already a fkn feat. That allows a big mess in the begining of an encounter and it would be gamebreaking if it where possible to use more times. The way a rogue can make a better use of it is to have a good stealth bonus and initiative bonus, and also play as a sneaky foe and try to always be apart of the group in a safe distance in order to don't be seen together. Keeping in mind that in surprise round some may be surprised but some not, an assassin rogue have even more chances to get a target to that feature, as each roll are made individually.
Let me gave an exemple of a big mess: Last session I DM I made an encounter for my group that envolves an Assassin (creature) that have that feat. The encounter was set during night, in an alley where the group were pursuing 3 other foes. If you are pursuing foes, most people would assume you have already rolled initiative and determined combat was likely. The hidden guy wasn't part of the original initiative roll for Surprise? Guess what, there are no new rolls to initiative for surprise. This has already been addressed in the situation of a third(or later) group joining battle with the first and second groups. I've place the assassin hiden in a building corner and the group was aware only of the other foes and as a rush out of initiative order becouse wasan't a fight yet. The group were sepatated (bad choices from them) and two were running that alley and enter the assassin range, so I ask both perception check to notice the assassin. Both fail, so both were surprised. The assassin got a good position in initiative order becouse of its dex mod and could chose any of the players to shot. (if it were in meele it maybe could have hit both with its multiattack).
The results were: First(surprise) round the assassin got a crit granted by assassinate and put down to death saves the first PC. Than we got to the second round and the assassin hide and the second PC go to stabilize the other one. Third round, the assassin got a crit rolling with advantage for hidding, 105 dmg total (including sneack attack and poison from its bolts) and make a instakill. The rounds still being count as the rest of the party were running far behing, but the assassing goes away becouse he had accomplished what he wants and I also wasn't wanting to make a TPK there.
I mean, if the assassin could benefit from assassinate beyond the first round. that instakill situation would be possible almost the entire encounter if well used by the player (or the DM in the case of the NPC). It would be a big mess stoped only by a grave cleric of 6th lvl or higher (because of its Sentinel's at Deaths Door cancelation of crits).
Surprise can be relatively hard to obtain in 5e which is why the assassin ability can be a bit of a trap since it is typically difficult to activate.
Yea an Assassin Rogue that wants to maximize its use of that ability really need to move ahead/outside of the party picking of sentries or similar. It is, both thematically and mechanically an ability best suited for one v one situations, not for group v group situations which means that in some (many?) campaigns it is of limited use.
I dont thin surprise are hard to obtain in 5e, In fact close to 90% of the encounters i play (as GM or Player) have surprise rounds. There is no such thing as Surprise rounds anymore. If you simply mean Surprise at the start of combat, they are completely different things. I mean, it can be the way we set sessions at my tables, but I don't see nothing unusual we make that would make us an exception. We may remember that surprise where determinatad by character in the scene, so even when most of the characters (pc and npc) were aware from the threat, maybe some could be surprised.
Anyway, thats a very situational feat that relies on the archtype of the Assassin Rogue. It intends to make a good char themed as a "court infiltrator/ assassin". So, thematically they fit very nice on urban encounters and 1x1 situation, but I don't see too much loss of that ability in group situations and even when its not an urban encounter. Its a feature that allows a rogue to make good strikes at the start, potentially killing a foe in one blow (perfect for a assassin in a court).
I dont think it needs much maximizations becouse its already a fkn feat. That allows a big mess in the begining of an encounter and it would be gamebreaking if it where possible to use more times. The way a rogue can make a better use of it is to have a good stealth bonus and initiative bonus, and also play as a sneaky foe and try to always be apart of the group in a safe distance in order to don't be seen together. Keeping in mind that in surprise round some may be surprised but some not, an assassin rogue have even more chances to get a target to that feature, as each roll are made individually.
Let me gave an exemple of a big mess: Last session I DM I made an encounter for my group that envolves an Assassin (creature) that have that feat. The encounter was set during night, in an alley where the group were pursuing 3 other foes. If you are pursuing foes, most people would assume you have already rolled initiative and determined combat was likely. The hidden guy wasn't part of the original initiative roll for Surprise? Guess what, there are no new rolls to initiative for surprise. This has already been addressed in the situation of a third(or later) group joining battle with the first and second groups. I've place the assassin hiden in a building corner and the group was aware only of the other foes and as a rush out of initiative order becouse wasan't a fight yet. The group were sepatated (bad choices from them) and two were running that alley and enter the assassin range, so I ask both perception check to notice the assassin. Both fail, so both were surprised. The assassin got a good position in initiative order becouse of its dex mod and could chose any of the players to shot. (if it were in meele it maybe could have hit both with its multiattack).
The results were: First(surprise) round the assassin got a crit granted by assassinate and put down to death saves the first PC. Than we got to the second round and the assassin hide and the second PC go to stabilize the other one. Third round, the assassin got a crit rolling with advantage for hidding, 105 dmg total (including sneack attack and poison from its bolts) and make a instakill. The rounds still being count as the rest of the party were running far behing, but the assassing goes away becouse he had accomplished what he wants and I also wasn't wanting to make a TPK there.
I mean, if the assassin could benefit from assassinate beyond the first round. that instakill situation would be possible almost the entire encounter if well used by the player (or the DM in the case of the NPC). It would be a big mess stoped only by a grave cleric of 6th lvl or higher (because of its Sentinel's at Deaths Door cancelation of crits).
Well. I don't see how "having or not having such thing as surprise round" changes the topic. I use the sentence "surprise round" but I meant "first round where surprise happens" and I don't see how it wasan't clear.
About the secont point. I maybe have houseruled it and make the pursuit a non encounter situation. the assassin was the foe and the other were just guys that were being followed without any danger alert. So I threat the encounter as between only the party and the assassin and start initiative at their meeitng. And if its wrong or right by RAW doesn't metter here becouse the point is other.
What I meant is that there's no clarification on that matter in the books but a tt comment from a dev.
The Dev's conment confirm what the critical hit rules say, which is to roll all of the attack’s damage dice twice and add them together. Poison damage such as these are not the result of a successful attack's damage, but of a failed saving throw.
An exemple of poison damage roll that get's doubled on a critical hit is a Young Green Dragon's Bite attack;
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 10ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d10 + 4) piercing damage plus 7 (2d6) poison damage.
What I meant is that there's no clarification on that matter in the books but a tt comment from a dev.
The Dev's conment confirm what the critical hit rules say, which is to roll all of the attack’s damage dice twice and add them together. Poison damage such as these are not the result of a successful attack's damage, but of a failed saving throw.
An exemple of poison damage roll that get's doubled on a critical hit is a Young Green Dragon's Bite attack;
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 10ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d10 + 4) piercing damage plus 7 (2d6) poison damage.
I got your pont. And I'm not arguing that you're wrong. What I meant is that untill that very moment at this forum I have never seen that confirmation from the dev on its twitter and I never see it as clear couse the statement "If the attack involves other damage dice" in the critical hit desciption makes me think that a forced save within an attack is a "kind of involvement" even if relies on a save. I mean, I as reading it as "if the compulsion of the save is involved in the attack, the damage from it is also involved with the attack". But thats clear for me now thats not the case.
Surprise is only for the very start of combat. It is for characters who aren't aware of any danger at all. Once combat starts, while a character might not be aware of every single enemy in the fight, it is at least aware that there is a fight happening. Reinforcements or additional hidden enemies won't be able to surprise anyone, mechanically.
But additional participants could in theory be surprised. If combat spills through a wall or people teleport into a room or something where new possible participants were entirely unaware of the ongoing combat... they could be surprised.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Sage Advice tells us the DM determines whether anyone in combat is surprised and this determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. It means that appearing in a raging combat automatically makes you aware of any threat.
Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round? No, here’s how surprise works. The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” on page 189 of the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” on page 194 of the Player’s Handbook). To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares. If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised. In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
Sage Advice tells us the DM determines whether anyone in combat is surprised and this determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. It means that appearing in a raging combat automatically makes you aware of any threat.
Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round? No, here’s how surprise works. The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” on page 189 of the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” on page 194 of the Player’s Handbook). To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares. If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised. In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
Naw, because to them, that is the start of the fight.
If you're brawling with someone and suddenly get teleported a mile away into the middle of town square. Those commoners should be surprised.
Just think about it. You now have a group of possible combatants that are in the battle very suddenly. They had no advanced knowledge this was going to happen. They're very surprised. AND now they need to get added into the combat. But, you ask.. how do we add them? Well, there is no "add new combatants" rules. Are there? We ONLY have the at the start of combat rules. So we use those rules for these new combatants. Because to them, this is the start of combat.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Sage Advice tells us the DM determines whether anyone in combat is surprised and this determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. It means that appearing in a raging combat automatically makes you aware of any threat.
Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round? No, here’s how surprise works. The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” on page 189 of the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” on page 194 of the Player’s Handbook). To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares. If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised. In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
Naw, because to them, that is the start of the fight.
If you're brawling with someone and suddenly get teleported a mile away into the middle of town square. Those commoners should be surprised.
Just think about it. You now have a group of possible combatants that are in the battle very suddenly. They had no advanced knowledge this was going to happen. They're very surprised. AND now they need to get added into the combat. But, you ask.. how do we add them? Well, there is no "add new combatants" rules. Are there? We ONLY have the at the start of combat rules. So we use those rules for these new combatants. Because to them, this is the start of combat.
Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. Joining an ongoing combat means the encounter has already started. Encounter is at round X even if for its your turn turn in it basically.
If neither side tries to be stealthy (like those involved in a raging combat) they automatically notice each other and thus are not achieving any Surprise because 1) no one is hidden and 2) the start of the encounter already took place.
A DM can always rule that surprise can still occur without Stealth or start of the encounter, but it would be a ruling that differ from RAW and from Sage Advice official ruling.
Sage Advice tells us the DM determines whether anyone in combat is surprised and this determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. It means that appearing in a raging combat automatically makes you aware of any threat.
Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round? No, here’s how surprise works. The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” on page 189 of the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” on page 194 of the Player’s Handbook). To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares. If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised. In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
Naw, because to them, that is the start of the fight.
If you're brawling with someone and suddenly get teleported a mile away into the middle of town square. Those commoners should be surprised.
Just think about it. You now have a group of possible combatants that are in the battle very suddenly. They had no advanced knowledge this was going to happen. They're very surprised. AND now they need to get added into the combat. But, you ask.. how do we add them? Well, there is no "add new combatants" rules. Are there? We ONLY have the at the start of combat rules. So we use those rules for these new combatants. Because to them, this is the start of combat.
Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. Joining an ongoing combat means the encounter has already started. Encounter is at round X even if for its your turn turn in it basically.
If neither side tries to be stealthy (like those involved in a raging combat) they automatically notice each other and thus are not achieving any Surprise because 1) no one is hidden and 2) the start of the encounter already took place.
A DM can always rule that surprise can still occur without Stealth or start of the encounter, but it would be a ruling that differ from RAW and from Sage Advice official ruling.
You're really doubling down on a misunderstanding here. For them, it is the start of the encounter. There is really only one rule section for adding additional participants into the ongoing encounter anyway. The rules for the start of an encounter. Your method sounds entirely off-script.
Edit: there is only one reasonable way to even handle this situation. You roll the new surprised combatants initiative immediately and consider them surprised for the current round. They'll have their first non-surprised turn during their initiative count of on the following turn. Otherwise you end up with situations like what if they get surprised on initiative count 3, but roll a 20 on their own initiative. They should have a turn this round? But in the actual RL past? That doesn't make sense. But should they go now and then also another turn immediately after at initiative count 20? That doesn't make sense either. Or if one guy gets a 20 and another gets a 2... the guy with 20 is too late to act but the slow guy can react? That doesn't make sense either. No. You consider them surprised for the current round and they act normally on the next round.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Adding creature to initiative mid-combat is also not within the rules. Most DMs will either give them a turn after the one they're appearing on or make them roll inititive and act only next round. Whch has nothing to do with surprise, since the encounter has already started and this determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again. This the official ruling in Sage Advice makes it clear.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Well. I don't see how "having or not having such thing as surprise round" changes the topic. I use the sentence "surprise round" but I meant "first round where surprise happens" and I don't see how it wasan't clear.
About the secont point. I maybe have houseruled it and make the pursuit a non encounter situation. the assassin was the foe and the other were just guys that were being followed without any danger alert. So I threat the encounter as between only the party and the assassin and start initiative at their meeitng. And if its wrong or right by RAW doesn't metter here becouse the point is other.
The Dev's conment confirm what the critical hit rules say, which is to roll all of the attack’s damage dice twice and add them together. Poison damage such as these are not the result of a successful attack's damage, but of a failed saving throw.
An exemple of poison damage roll that get's doubled on a critical hit is a Young Green Dragon's Bite attack;
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 10ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d10 + 4) piercing damage plus 7 (2d6) poison damage.
I got your pont. And I'm not arguing that you're wrong. What I meant is that untill that very moment at this forum I have never seen that confirmation from the dev on its twitter and I never see it as clear couse the statement "If the attack involves other damage dice" in the critical hit desciption makes me think that a forced save within an attack is a "kind of involvement" even if relies on a save. I mean, I as reading it as "if the compulsion of the save is involved in the attack, the damage from it is also involved with the attack". But thats clear for me now thats not the case.
But additional participants could in theory be surprised. If combat spills through a wall or people teleport into a room or something where new possible participants were entirely unaware of the ongoing combat... they could be surprised.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Sage Advice tells us the DM determines whether anyone in combat is surprised and this determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. It means that appearing in a raging combat automatically makes you aware of any threat.
Naw, because to them, that is the start of the fight.
If you're brawling with someone and suddenly get teleported a mile away into the middle of town square. Those commoners should be surprised.
Just think about it. You now have a group of possible combatants that are in the battle very suddenly. They had no advanced knowledge this was going to happen. They're very surprised. AND now they need to get added into the combat. But, you ask.. how do we add them? Well, there is no "add new combatants" rules. Are there? We ONLY have the at the start of combat rules. So we use those rules for these new combatants. Because to them, this is the start of combat.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. Joining an ongoing combat means the encounter has already started. Encounter is at round X even if for its your turn turn in it basically.
If neither side tries to be stealthy (like those involved in a raging combat) they automatically notice each other and thus are not achieving any Surprise because 1) no one is hidden and 2) the start of the encounter already took place.
A DM can always rule that surprise can still occur without Stealth or start of the encounter, but it would be a ruling that differ from RAW and from Sage Advice official ruling.
You're really doubling down on a misunderstanding here. For them, it is the start of the encounter. There is really only one rule section for adding additional participants into the ongoing encounter anyway. The rules for the start of an encounter. Your method sounds entirely off-script.
Edit: there is only one reasonable way to even handle this situation. You roll the new surprised combatants initiative immediately and consider them surprised for the current round. They'll have their first non-surprised turn during their initiative count of on the following turn. Otherwise you end up with situations like what if they get surprised on initiative count 3, but roll a 20 on their own initiative. They should have a turn this round? But in the actual RL past? That doesn't make sense. But should they go now and then also another turn immediately after at initiative count 20? That doesn't make sense either. Or if one guy gets a 20 and another gets a 2... the guy with 20 is too late to act but the slow guy can react? That doesn't make sense either. No. You consider them surprised for the current round and they act normally on the next round.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Adding creature to initiative mid-combat is also not within the rules. Most DMs will either give them a turn after the one they're appearing on or make them roll inititive and act only next round. Whch has nothing to do with surprise, since the encounter has already started and this determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again. This the official ruling in Sage Advice makes it clear.