Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Does the rogue voluntarily fail the telekentic shove saving throw and is auto out of grapple?
Or does the shove have the kraken make the saving throw?
Where would the rule for that be?
As Grappled Rogue telekinetically shove by your ally Wizard's, If you don’t want to resist the effect, you can choose to fail the Strength saving throw without rolling and thus be moved 5 feet toward or away from the Wizard. The Grappled condition ends if the distance between the Grappled Rogue and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024/playing-the-game#SavingThrows
If you're shoving the Rogue, the Rogue makes the save. If you're shoving the Kraken, the Kraken makes the save. The rule for that is in the description of the Telekinetic feat: it says the target makes the save.
Moving or shoving a Grappled creature is a common way to get the Grapple to end. There's nothing special about a Kraken in this regard, although if the Kraken has actually used its Swallow ability on the Rogue, you won't be able to use Telekinetic Shove on them (because the Rogue has Total Cover).
pronouns: he/she/they
The Glossary entry also say you can decide to fail the save without rolling.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024/rules-glossary#SavingThrow
Grappled Condition says : "Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t increase" and also "Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you when it moves,"
So it feels like there might be something in there that has implications that i cant shove a grappled creature cause speed is 0 and it cant move, but i could still shove the grappler.
You do understand the nonsense here, correct?
Intuitively speaking, a weak rogue grappled by a kraken, the rogue has to overcome the Krakens dc of 20. So if i pull or shove the rogue, i still have to overcome the kraken.
I get the RULE says i shove the rogue and they can auto fail the shove and auto port out of a krakens tentacle. But thats just crazy. Its completely counter to reality by default.
Its not that normal pull or shove rolls against the grapplers dc, but then some special cases like eldritch blast's force movement just ignores the save completely. But ALL shoves?
Maybe its good for game mechanics to make it easier for players to free other players from grappling monsters, but its just whacky to anyone new to the game, approaching it like maybe some of this is based in reality.
Yes, "dnd isnt physics" is the other cult mantra of dnd. (Right behind "glass is full cover" silliness) . If thats all you've got to "explain" this, then dont bother. Apparently we always homebrewed this to be common sense.
There’s a large number of rules that don’t make sense. A halfling with a dagger and the sentinel feat can stop the tarrasque or a blob of annihilation or an ancient dragon.
But as the DMG says, rules aren’t physics.
And, of course, you can always house rule something.
I’ll also note a kraken has a 30’ reach, so the grapple would only be broken if you can push the rogue beyond 30’. Moving the rogue from 5 to 10, for example, changes nothing.
Creatures whose Speed is 0 can't move under their own power. There's nothing saying they can't be moved by someone or something else.
I mean, if you ask a question in the forum that's specifically for questions about how the rules work, and you'll probably get an answer that's about how the rules work. "Rules aren't physics" is part of the rules; if you want to call it a "cult mantra", that's fine, but in that case you're literally asking the cult for their mantra.
pronouns: he/she/they
I realize I already replied to this one, but I just can't not say this. You're OK with using mental powers to push a full-grown person, but not if that person is being held by the tentacle of a giant mythical sea beast?
Also, I'd submit that in this case, it wouldn't be the rogue's strength that mattered. It would be the strength of the telekinetic user's power. The rogue is a rag doll getting thrown around by others.
While it would make sense for a grappling creature to be able to do something to prevent moving the subject of its grapple (I would suggest a strength save as a house rule), RAW doesn't actually have anything. Most of the time a telekinetic shove will not break the grapple, though, since the kraken has a reach of 30' and grapple only ends if the victim is moved out of the reach of the grappler.
Another instance where the rules don't exactly make sense but that is how it is.
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"real life is a super high CR."
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"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
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"You're OK with using mental powers to push a full-grown person, but not if that person is being held by the tentacle of a giant mythical sea beast?"
Yeah this argument doesnt work on me. There is dumb magic systems, dumb monster design, and dumb game systems. I dont like them either.
The argument of "you accepted this unrealistic thing, therefore you must accept all unrealistic things" is invoking a reverse slippery slope argument, or a false equivalence fallacy. I accept dragons in the game because ive heard thousands of stories with dragons in them. Dragons may have been inspired at least in part by exposed dinosaur fossils. That doesnt mean i have to accept any monster anyone makes up as equally valid. If the monster manual had a "little bit of everything monster," id probably call it bad design and uninspired, maybe even silly. Even though i accept completely fictional dragons, i could reject a completely fictional robot-ghost-zombie-werewolf-interior_decorator monster.
Usually stories written with fantastical elements or super powers or whatever try to establish how things work in the world, what its limitations are, before throwing the hero into combat. Cause if it jumps straight into combat, and our super hero turns incorpreal to avoid damage, teleports to attack something, mind controls an enemy, melts steel with his eye beams, breathes fire, but also breaths cold, and all of this is just a jumble of nonsensacle things, then, yeah, i will reject it as badly designed. Badly written.
"Also, I'd submit that in this case, it wouldn't be the rogue's strength that mattered. It would be the strength of the telekinetic user's power. The rogue is a rag doll getting thrown around by others."
Except the rules are explicit: the target can choose to fail the saving throw and the power of the caster is irrelevant, they just push the target 5 feet.
Ending a Grapple this way isn't all that different than when a Grappled creature is Unarmed Striked by an ally and choose to fail the Strength or Dexterity saving throw without rolling to be pushed 5 feet or be Grappled and drag or carried away.
The point of this forum is to specifically outline the rules of D&D. If you don't like them, you are free to change them as a DM. If you think there should be a more specific house rule to handle this (which I agree it is an odd interaction), maybe post it in the Homebrew and House Rules forum.
"The point of this forum is to specifically outline the rules of D&D. If you don't like them, you are free to change them as a DM. If you think there should be a more specific house rule to handle this (which I agree it is an odd interaction), maybe post it in the Homebrew and House Rules forum."
I started by stating the rules i was aware of, the weird result it produces, and asked if i was missing anything. Maybe some other rule somewhere else superseded the rules i was looking at.
Exactly the sort of thing this rules subforum is for.
Now that i have clarification on how the rule works, and that i am not missing anything, i will homebrew a fix.
Anyone arguing "if you accept one fantastical thing in the rules, you must accept all fantastical things in the rules" is basically a blanket argument againt homebrewing anything. Cause homebrewing means someone did not accept a rule as it was written for some reason or another.
RAW, it's just as everyone said: forced movement breaks grapples. For example, using Push, Shove or the classic Thunderwave.
Here are some related threads about breaking grapples in different scenarios:
The rules aren't an attempt to model every possible contingency. They're written for the general case, which, in the case of the grappling rules, is normal human-scale creatures grabbing, pushing, etc.
In that scenario, it's not unreasonable to assume that a sudden external push can break the grapple. It also gives players more tactical options if one of them gets grappled, and is mechanically simpler, requiring fewer die rolls.
Anyway, there's no clean alternative. Many, perhaps most, effects that move people around don't have a stat to contest against. This could be worked around, but it's still more mechanics, for very little gain except to make the players' cool tricks harder. (And "I telekinetically yank the rogue out of the kraken's grasp" is definitely cool.)
Yes it is that dumb, and yes you should house rule it. It is a mind boggling terrible rule.
Um sure, it is the wizards power that matters but the resistance they are fighting against is the krakens. The kraken is the one who should make the save. Any other answer is nonsensical to the point it breaks immersion in the game despite how fantastical the powers are. The its magic you should just accept it argument is weak. If it was a forced teleport power sure, but its a shove and whatever resistance it has versus being moved should apply.
So if you are manacled to a wall, can a 5 strength fellow prisoner shove you, you chose to fail the save and then you will just pop out of the manacles. that is basically the argument here just using fantastical elements of a kraken and telekinetic shoves.
No, because being manacled is being restrained, not grappled.
More importantly, yes, you can find situations where, by the strict reading of the rules, you get absurd results. (I am unconvinced that this particular situation is one of those, but never mind.)
That is why we have a DM.
Nobody actually plays entirely by RAW. There are too many edge cases, undefined situations, and just plain silly results. The DM is there to fill in the gaps, resolve the questions, and sometimes say "no, that makes no sense".