Unarmed Strike Damage/Grapple/Shove rules clarification.

Hi there!  I had a question about Unarmed Strikes in the 5.5e ruleset.

When making an Unarmed Strike, you choose one of the following options:

• Damage. You make an attack roll against the target. Your bonus to the roll equals your Strength modifier plus your Proficiency Bonus. On a hit, the target takes Bludgeoning damage equal to 1 plus your Strength modifier.
• Grapple. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or it has the Grappled condition. The DC for the saving throw and any escape attempts equals 8 plus your Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus. This grapple is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you and if you have a hand free to grab it.
• Shove. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition. The DC for the saving throw equals 8 plus your Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus. This shove is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you.

The damage option is very self-explanatory, but I'm a bit unclear regarding the Grapple and Shove options.  On each of their descriptions, no mention is made of an attack roll being made against the target - only that they must make a saving throw against your DC.

Does this mean that when choosing the Grapple or Shove option, you do not make any attack roll against the target, and instead the target simply rolls the saving throw?  That is my understanding, but I want to be sure.

Related to this, I wanted to also get clarification regarding the Grappler feat.  The feat grants the following ability:

• Punch and Grab. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use both the Damage and the Grapple option. You can use this benefit only once per turn.

When using the Punch and Grab option on an Unarmed Strike, would this then mean that you make an attack roll to deal damage AND the targeted creature makes a saving throw to determine whether they are grappled?  Does this also mean that, if you were to miss the attack roll, you might still successfully grapple the creature?

Thanks gang!

Quote from BucklingSwashes >>

The damage option is very self-explanatory, but I'm a bit unclear regarding the Grapple and Shove options.  On each of their descriptions, no mention is made of an attack roll being made against the target - only that they must make a saving throw against your DC.

Does this mean that when choosing the Grapple or Shove option, you do not make any attack roll against the target, and instead the target simply rolls the saving throw?  That is my understanding, but I want to be sure.

That's correct. No attack roll is made for either the Grapple or Shove option.

Quote from BucklingSwashes >>

When using the Punch and Grab option on an Unarmed Strike, would this then mean that you make an attack roll to deal damage AND the targeted creature makes a saving throw to determine whether they are grappled?

Correct. You're using both options on the same Unarmed Strike, so both things happen: you make an attack roll and the target makes a saving throw.

Quote from BucklingSwashes >>

Does this also mean that, if you were to miss the attack roll, you might still successfully grapple the creature?

Yes, or the other way around.

Also, you don't have to do them in that order; you could attempt to grapple first and then attack, if you like.

Edit: I may be mistaken about this; the fact that it says "when you hit with an Unarmed Strike" makes it sound like the combination of both options can only be used if the attack roll from the damage option hits. But it's worded weirdly and I think it would be reasonable to rule it either way.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

 

Quote from BucklingSwashes >>

Does this also mean that, if you were to miss the attack roll, you might still successfully grapple the creature?

Yes, or the other way around.

Also, you don't have to do them in that order; you could attempt to grapple first and then attack, if you like.

 I disagree on this one. It reads like it's supposed to be contingent on hitting, so if you miss with the attack roll, you also can't grapple.

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

 

Quote from BucklingSwashes >>

Does this also mean that, if you were to miss the attack roll, you might still successfully grapple the creature?

Yes, or the other way around.

Also, you don't have to do them in that order; you could attempt to grapple first and then attack, if you like.

 I disagree on this one. It reads like it's supposed to be contingent on hitting, so if you miss with the attack roll, you also can't grapple.

On further reflection, I think you're right, though if that's the intent I think they really should've worded it differently.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from BucklingSwashes >>

Does this also mean that, if you were to miss the attack roll, you might still successfully grapple the creature?

Yes, or the other way around.

Also, you don't have to do them in that order; you could attempt to grapple first and then attack, if you like.

 The Grappler Feat states 

• Punch and Grab. When you hit a creature  with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use both the Damage and the Grapple option. You can use this benefit only once per turn.

To me this reads that you first must succeed on the attack roll of the Damage option to activate the Grapple option, no? Otherwise wouldn't it say something like "When you attempt an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action on your turn..."? Or is a "Hit" in 2024 ruled differently than 2014?

The Unarmed Strike rules state:

Whenever you use your Unarmed Strike, choose one of the following options for its effect.

Damage. You make an attack roll against the target. Your bonus to the roll equals your Strength modifier plus your Proficiency Bonus. On a hit, the target takes Bludgeoning damage equal to 1 plus your Strength modifier.

It seems like the "hit" is specific to succeeding on the attack roll of the Damage option. Otherwise I would think if it didn't matter for the Grappler Feat if you hit or if they succeeded on the saving throw against the grapple, it would use the "use your Unarmed Strike" language.

*Edit: Looks like I was ninja'd by jl8e while I was researching.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

though if that's the intent I think they really should've worded it differently.

 Basically the story of the 5e rules.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from BucklingSwashes >>

Does this also mean that, if you were to miss the attack roll, you might still successfully grapple the creature?

Yes, or the other way around.

Also, you don't have to do them in that order; you could attempt to grapple first and then attack, if you like.

Edit: I may be mistaken about this; the fact that it says "when you hit with an Unarmed Strike" makes it sound like the combination of both options can only be used if the attack roll from the damage option hits. But it's worded weirdly and I think it would be reasonable to rule it either way.

 This is from you in the past:

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from Jounichi1983 >>

Grappler, my mistake. Had my wired crossed.

Grappler should work, though now that I look at it the feat is oddly written (it specifies that when you hit you can choose the damage and grapple options -- but you choose the option you're using with an unarmed strike before rolling to hit, and you don't roll to hit if your choice isn't damage).

I've been interpreting that to mean that if you use the damage option, roll the attack, and it hits, you can then also use the grapple option as part of the same unarmed strike.

 That seems to be the consensus, at least from what I remember about similar questions in the past:

• 2024 Grappler Feat: Attack Roll or Saving Throw?
• 2024 Grappler feat and Shove (prone) - Tips & Tactics 
• 2024 Grapple