hello, so i have yet to find a definitive answer to my question. YES I AM AWARE AND UNDERSTAND THAT FAMILIAR CAN USE THE HELP ACTION THIS IS NOT WHAT I AM ASKING!!!
Now that that is out of the way... my question: my campaign is using flanking rules and famailiar goes with the player, if the familiar moves into flanking position with the player on opposite side, does the player get advantage on all attacks? Example: riju approaches goblin A and has his familiar move to the opposite side of goblin A. riju then attacks with his action and bonus action. do both attacks get advantage since goblin A is flanked by familiar?
i understand that familiar is now a target and easily killed that is irrelevant to my question.
By the book, you can flank with a familiar. However, I wouldn't be surprised if a DM ruled otherwise since the familiar can't actually attack, especially given how resistant some DMs are to letting familiars use the help action for the same effect.
By the book, you can flank with a familiar. However, I wouldn't be surprised if a DM ruled otherwise since the familiar can't actually attack, especially given how resistant some DMs are to letting familiars use the help action for the same effect.
But if the DM is allowing the Flanking rule in the first place, then they probably won't mind Familiars being able to help with flanking.
The familiar absolutely, unambiguously, can flank a creature and provide an ally with advantage by doing so. There's no question. This is how flanking works.
The only question that remains is, "is this stupid?" But that's actually two questions. First, "does this fit the cool fantasy vibes I want for my game?" Second, "is this too easy?" I can't answer the first one for you. For me, it doesn't. I don't like it. For the second one, all I can say is, welcome to the flanking rules. You're going to be asking that question a lot while you're using them.
But wouldnt it be better to go flanking with the familiar getting up close to the enemy and use distraction as an action. That would give the player advantage on his attack and disadvantage to the enemy attack.
because i think a familiar or trained battle pet would need to be able to actually do something to help in order to use the help action.
like having an owl on the shoulder using help action for me to shoot whatever with advantage doesnt make sense. How will it be able to provide any help?
while it would probably make some good distraction flying off to the Face of the enemy to do whatever owls do, even shitting in the face would be a distraction. 🤷🏻♂️
But wouldnt it be better to go flanking with the familiar getting up close to the enemy and use distraction as an action. That would give the player advantage on his attack and disadvantage to the enemy attack.
because i think a familiar or trained battle pet would need to be able to actually do something to help in order to use the help action.
like having an owl on the shoulder using help action for me to shoot whatever with advantage doesnt make sense. How will it be able to provide any help?
while it would probably make some good distraction flying off to the Face of the enemy to do whatever owls do, even shitting in the face would be a distraction. 🤷🏻♂️
There's no distraction action, is the thing. The certainty in your tone suggests that your DM might have introduced a rule to the contrary. You're welcome to tell your familiar to go in and get in the way as much as it can, but it's up to the DM what effect that has, if any. (And if it does, then odds are pretty good that the monster will try and kill your familiar. Which will be easy to do, because they're all quite fragile. This is also true for flanking, by the way. Be wary.)
You're right that the owl sitting on the archer's shoulder wouldn't be able to help. Help requires the helper to be within 5ft of the enemy. But we're not here to talk about Help. This is about flanking.
I see this as basically sacrificing your familiar to get flanking advantage for one round since I don't see it lasting longer than that among intelligent enemies.
With familiars, there's greater utility in help at least when I eyeball it.
FWIW I generally see "help" in attacks often narrated as "distraction action." Mechanically it's helping, narratively it's specified as distracting.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
While there is no distraction action their is nothing wrong with a familiar using the help action my distracting the enemy, I often describe the help action as such.
As others have said RAW if flanking is used then it applies with familiars. Unlike Brian the reference to a creature not being able to flank an enemy it can not see makes me think that flanking has to involve two creatures so animate objects can not flank either each other or a PC, but tiny servent would (as it becomes a creature).
I also don't like flanking, advantage is a huge boost and any class features that grant it are hugely devalued if most of the time you get advantage anyway just by appropriate positioning.
One think to remember when comparing help with flanking is that the help action only give advantage on the first attack. With flanking it works with every attack by the creature.
As with everything, ask the dm. Flanking os itself an optional rule. Not all dm’s use it. I have played in a number of pickup groups where it wasn’t used. I myself always allow it, and in the regular game sessions I play in it is generally acceptable. Using a familiar to get flanking is a fine if risky tactic. You are better off using an owl as it has flyby which allows it to fly in, take the help action and then fly out without provoking an attack of opportunity. Of course it only gives advantage on your first attack but still.
As with everything, ask the dm. Flanking os itself an optional rule. Not all dm’s use it. I have played in a number of pickup groups where it wasn’t used. I myself always allow it, and in the regular game sessions I play in it is generally acceptable. Using a familiar to get flanking is a fine if risky tactic. You are better off using an owl as it has flyby which allows it to fly in, take the help action and then fly out without provoking an attack of opportunity. Of course it only gives advantage on your first attack but still.
OP's DM is using flanking. They said so in the post. And they also said they don't need to hear that it's risky. But is it even risky? Since OP said the familiar goes on the player's turn, it can actually flank an enemy while he's attacking, then move on to another enemy to flank for someone else. It'll still have its action which it can use to Dodge, so even though its AC is 11, it'll be a little harder to hit. Or it could flank, then go Help someone attack a second target, and then fly away. Either way we're talking about two separate party members getting advantage at the cost of zero player actions, zero spell slots, and zero risk -- just the cost of knowing the spell and paying for the incense. If the familiar does get hit, well, that's one attack that didn't go at a player, and we've lost 10gp. A potion of healing usually costs around 20gp or more, and restores 2d4+2 hit points, so it's a good trade if that attack was going to deal more than, what, 3 damage? And that's *if* the bird gets hit. With all the free advantage, the enemy might just die before it gets a chance.
Familiar's turn --> Action: administer potion to nearby ally; and Move: behind enemy.
Player's turn --> Move: infront of enemy ("Flanking the enemy"). Action: "cast a spell with a range of touch" (ex: shocking grasp) and use the familiar to deliver the spell as "if it had cast the spell", using the familiar reaction.
Enemy's turn--> Action: attack and kill familiar, because he notices it/he is a pain in the ass.
Question : is the melee spell attack of shocking grasp made with advantage? Do you think it is logical?
Familiar's turn --> Action: administer potion to nearby ally; and Move: behind enemy.
Player's turn --> Move: infront of enemy ("Flanking the enemy"). Action: "cast a spell with a range of touch" (ex: shocking grasp) and use the familiar to deliver the spell as "if it had cast the spell", using the familiar reaction.
Enemy's turn--> Action: attack and kill familiar, because he notices it/he is a pain in the ass.
Question : is the melee spell attack of shocking grasp made with advantage? Do you think it is logical?
If the optional rule for Flanking is in use, Shocking Grasp's melee attack should be made with advantage because the character and its familiar ally are adjacent to the enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space. Other than positioning, what prevent Flanking is being incapacitated or unable to see the target, a creature's size or type is irrelevant in this case which is think is logical in some way.
hello, so i have yet to find a definitive answer to my question. YES I AM AWARE AND UNDERSTAND THAT FAMILIAR CAN USE THE HELP ACTION THIS IS NOT WHAT I AM ASKING!!!
Now that that is out of the way... my question: my campaign is using flanking rules and famailiar goes with the player, if the familiar moves into flanking position with the player on opposite side, does the player get advantage on all attacks? Example: riju approaches goblin A and has his familiar move to the opposite side of goblin A. riju then attacks with his action and bonus action. do both attacks get advantage since goblin A is flanked by familiar?
i understand that familiar is now a target and easily killed that is irrelevant to my question.
Sure it is an allied creature.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
By the book, you can flank with a familiar. However, I wouldn't be surprised if a DM ruled otherwise since the familiar can't actually attack, especially given how resistant some DMs are to letting familiars use the help action for the same effect.
But if the DM is allowing the Flanking rule in the first place, then they probably won't mind Familiars being able to help with flanking.
Not because a familiar can't attack that it's incapacitated. It's an ally of yours so if it can see the target, it can flank it.
The familiar absolutely, unambiguously, can flank a creature and provide an ally with advantage by doing so. There's no question. This is how flanking works.
The only question that remains is, "is this stupid?" But that's actually two questions. First, "does this fit the cool fantasy vibes I want for my game?" Second, "is this too easy?" I can't answer the first one for you. For me, it doesn't. I don't like it. For the second one, all I can say is, welcome to the flanking rules. You're going to be asking that question a lot while you're using them.
But wouldnt it be better to go flanking with the familiar getting up close to the enemy and use distraction as an action. That would give the player advantage on his attack and disadvantage to the enemy attack.
because i think a familiar or trained battle pet would need to be able to actually do something to help in order to use the help action.
like having an owl on the shoulder using help action for me to shoot whatever with advantage doesnt make sense. How will it be able to provide any help?
while it would probably make some good distraction flying off to the Face of the enemy to do whatever owls do, even shitting in the face would be a distraction. 🤷🏻♂️
There's no distraction action, is the thing. The certainty in your tone suggests that your DM might have introduced a rule to the contrary. You're welcome to tell your familiar to go in and get in the way as much as it can, but it's up to the DM what effect that has, if any. (And if it does, then odds are pretty good that the monster will try and kill your familiar. Which will be easy to do, because they're all quite fragile. This is also true for flanking, by the way. Be wary.)
You're right that the owl sitting on the archer's shoulder wouldn't be able to help. Help requires the helper to be within 5ft of the enemy. But we're not here to talk about Help. This is about flanking.
I see this as basically sacrificing your familiar to get flanking advantage for one round since I don't see it lasting longer than that among intelligent enemies.
With familiars, there's greater utility in help at least when I eyeball it.
FWIW I generally see "help" in attacks often narrated as "distraction action." Mechanically it's helping, narratively it's specified as distracting.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
While there is no distraction action their is nothing wrong with a familiar using the help action my distracting the enemy, I often describe the help action as such.
As others have said RAW if flanking is used then it applies with familiars. Unlike Brian the reference to a creature not being able to flank an enemy it can not see makes me think that flanking has to involve two creatures so animate objects can not flank either each other or a PC, but tiny servent would (as it becomes a creature).
I also don't like flanking, advantage is a huge boost and any class features that grant it are hugely devalued if most of the time you get advantage anyway just by appropriate positioning.
One think to remember when comparing help with flanking is that the help action only give advantage on the first attack. With flanking it works with every attack by the creature.
You are right, my mistake. I mixed it up and we used the distraction as i mentioned, but it was in fact the help action.
sorry
As with everything, ask the dm. Flanking os itself an optional rule. Not all dm’s use it. I have played in a number of pickup groups where it wasn’t used. I myself always allow it, and in the regular game sessions I play in it is generally acceptable. Using a familiar to get flanking is a fine if risky tactic. You are better off using an owl as it has flyby which allows it to fly in, take the help action and then fly out without provoking an attack of opportunity. Of course it only gives advantage on your first attack but still.
OP's DM is using flanking. They said so in the post. And they also said they don't need to hear that it's risky. But is it even risky? Since OP said the familiar goes on the player's turn, it can actually flank an enemy while he's attacking, then move on to another enemy to flank for someone else. It'll still have its action which it can use to Dodge, so even though its AC is 11, it'll be a little harder to hit. Or it could flank, then go Help someone attack a second target, and then fly away. Either way we're talking about two separate party members getting advantage at the cost of zero player actions, zero spell slots, and zero risk -- just the cost of knowing the spell and paying for the incense. If the familiar does get hit, well, that's one attack that didn't go at a player, and we've lost 10gp. A potion of healing usually costs around 20gp or more, and restores 2d4+2 hit points, so it's a good trade if that attack was going to deal more than, what, 3 damage? And that's *if* the bird gets hit. With all the free advantage, the enemy might just die before it gets a chance.
Consider this scenario:
*Iniciative order: 1st- Familar; 2nd Player; 3rd: Enemy.
Familiar's turn --> Action: administer potion to nearby ally; and Move: behind enemy.
Player's turn --> Move: infront of enemy ("Flanking the enemy"). Action: "cast a spell with a range of touch" (ex: shocking grasp) and use the familiar to deliver the spell as "if it had cast the spell", using the familiar reaction.
Enemy's turn--> Action: attack and kill familiar, because he notices it/he is a pain in the ass.
Question : is the melee spell attack of shocking grasp made with advantage? Do you think it is logical?
If the optional rule for Flanking is in use, Shocking Grasp's melee attack should be made with advantage because the character and its familiar ally are adjacent to the enemy and on opposite sides or corners of the enemy’s space. Other than positioning, what prevent Flanking is being incapacitated or unable to see the target, a creature's size or type is irrelevant in this case which is think is logical in some way.
Crawford was asked about this in 2018, here's his answer - https://www.sageadvice.eu/flanking-do-creatures-you-control-offer-flanking-as-allies/
TL;DR - Yes, familiars can flank. As long as the creature is an ally, it can flank. Even if it can't attack.
As the old meme goes, he doesn't bite, but he can hurt you in other ways.