Most combats are over in ten rounds or less so fatigue doesn't really figure into it. However, if a players wanted to try and keep his mobile character moving around while being followed by a lumbering knight in heavy armor, how would you handle that?
A lot of this stems from the many Game of Thrones trials by combat, most of which feature a very mobile fighter up against a slower, more heavily-armored one. In many cases the agile fighter moves about, striking occasionally, allowing their opponent to become tired. There is no mechanic for this in D&D so if my players want it how should it be done?
I don't mind the idea of a player using his head during a solo duel since I know that mass combat won't usually have time for such things. I just don't want to have to write a specific system just for duels and trials by combat.
The mechanism for tiredness is exhaustion but there aren't any rules for causing that in combat without using spells. You don't really need to use it to model a faster character winning though. A mobile character (likely monk, rogue, or with mobile feat to easily disengage) can dance away and use a ranged weapon. If they have a higher speed (heavy armor reduces speed) they can kite the heavy until he falls.
I have two home-brew rules in mind. One ties HP to exhaustion. Below 50% the target suffers one level of exhaustion, below 10%, the target suffers another one. I don't use it because it might lead to snowballing the players, since it debilitates them at low HP. Though the third level of exhaustion is the real pain.
The second rule ties rounds to exhaustion. A character can fight and take actions for a number of rounds equal to their Constitution modifier, after that they must make a Constitution saving throw whenever they want to take an action, on a fail they suffer one exhaustion level.
Considering this, you could ellect some things that aggravate the effects, like heavy armor, dash, etc.
Those are decent ideas (though I would tie exhaustion to Con score , not modifier), but neither would allow a "light" character to exhaust a "heavy" like Darkaiser is describing.
At the end of the day, I think that what Darkaiser is describing is really just the narrative fluff that describes a successful combat where a lighter armored character defeats a heavier armored one, and not really anything that can easily be adapted as an actual mechanical effect of general application. I could see a Rogue or Fighter subclass specializing in some sort of ability that forces foes to make a Con save or suffer exhaustion after the player takes the Dodge action and is missed... but releasing a new houserule that's going to be in effect in every combat for the whole campaign probably will just unbalance things in ways you don't anticipate.
5e already has mechanics that allow this kind of fighting. Making homebrew rules would render those builds irrelevant.
I'm talking about classes with higher than average movement, and feats like [feat]Mobile[/feat] and items or spells that can haste. Some classes get "don't provoke attacks of opportunity if you attack" as part of their sub-classes.
For example, a Rogue with Mobile feat and Cunning Action stays 40 feet away from a heavily armored target:
He moves his 40 feet to get in melee range, makes an attack action, then uses cunning action to dash 40 feet back. No attacks of opportunity, the heavy target can't close the distance to engage. Exactly the kind of combat you described.
EXCEPT: Hold action by the target can put a crimp in your plans. But this is OK, can't be 100% immune to retaliation.
I wouldn't link the second rule to con, but rather they characters primary stat
It doesn't really make sense to nerf a wizard with a con save. Intelligence makes sense for their save since they are usually concentrating on casting spells etc..
A little harder for wiz/cha saves (rp wise) but it would help not to nerf certain characters that don't favor con as a primary stat.
I think you're right. Those were just ideas I had, I did not develop them. I just took the chase rules (DMG p. 252) and transferred to another use, with minor adjustments.
Though, as I said, I did not use those rules. It adds a level of complexity that in my opinion would not pay off. If I ever take on them again, I'll definitely consider what you said, because it really makes a lot of sense. Maybe divide it in mental exhaustion and physical exhaustion. But this is a topic for another thread.
HolySeraph, Have you done anything more with these ideas? I like the first rule, tying HP to exhaustion. It makes HP actually mean something, not just an energy bar that goes up and down. You mention snowballing the players- debilitating them at low HP. Hell yes characters should be debilitated as their HP goes down! I can't imagine that a person can get stabbed and blasted with spells and they're totally OK until they hit 0 HP. I can't believe that there are still no metrics for performance degradation from injury.
I use a homebrew HP mechanic in one of my games, testing out something that might work with what the OP presented.
The players start with one extra hit die + con mod but as a second pool from their normal HP. This pool of HP only increases with every 4th character level and is always a max roll.
The players have helped me coin the normal HP pool as "Fighting spirit" and the second, smaller, pool as "Health". As you go through the paces of combat and take damage you reduce your "Fighting spirit" first. Once that pool hits 0 you move on to your "Health" and then it becomes tricky. At that point in time you have disadvantage on any attack, spell, or action that is considered aggressive toward the opponents, Defensive actions, spells, or similar are treated as normal. This helps re-enforce that you are grievously wounded and should probably do something about it. It's also scary, since that "Health" pool is so small, because one attack could knock you out.
I'm caught as to whether I should have any overflow damage zero out once "Fighting spirit" is depleted, or to have it roll over. That's why this is in testing right now, to see how it plays out. The players enjoy it because it is a little more HP than normal and a warning when things are going south. I like it because I can have fun with combats and still know the players have a way to see that they're overwhelmed rather than fight to the death every time. So far the only downside I've come across is that the players don't always remember the penalties, but this is a new approach and it's easy to miss things like that during combat.
I know this is a boring answer, but I'd personally do nothing...HP isn't just a measure of actual wounds that can be taken, but battle fatigue. The heavier combatant is going to get hurt less often because of the higher AC, and slowly begin to fatigue the fighter...there really doesn't need to be new mechanics for this, rather a change of staging in your theater of the mind when dealing with combat in general.
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Most combats are over in ten rounds or less so fatigue doesn't really figure into it. However, if a players wanted to try and keep his mobile character moving around while being followed by a lumbering knight in heavy armor, how would you handle that?
A lot of this stems from the many Game of Thrones trials by combat, most of which feature a very mobile fighter up against a slower, more heavily-armored one. In many cases the agile fighter moves about, striking occasionally, allowing their opponent to become tired. There is no mechanic for this in D&D so if my players want it how should it be done?
I don't mind the idea of a player using his head during a solo duel since I know that mass combat won't usually have time for such things. I just don't want to have to write a specific system just for duels and trials by combat.
There are some spells that cause fatigue in combat. Sickening Radiance is one. If something isn’t in the rules, then it doesn’t happen so I’d say no.
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The mechanism for tiredness is exhaustion but there aren't any rules for causing that in combat without using spells. You don't really need to use it to model a faster character winning though. A mobile character (likely monk, rogue, or with mobile feat to easily disengage) can dance away and use a ranged weapon. If they have a higher speed (heavy armor reduces speed) they can kite the heavy until he falls.
I have two home-brew rules in mind. One ties HP to exhaustion. Below 50% the target suffers one level of exhaustion, below 10%, the target suffers another one. I don't use it because it might lead to snowballing the players, since it debilitates them at low HP. Though the third level of exhaustion is the real pain.
The second rule ties rounds to exhaustion. A character can fight and take actions for a number of rounds equal to their Constitution modifier, after that they must make a Constitution saving throw whenever they want to take an action, on a fail they suffer one exhaustion level.
Considering this, you could ellect some things that aggravate the effects, like heavy armor, dash, etc.
Those are decent ideas (though I would tie exhaustion to Con score , not modifier), but neither would allow a "light" character to exhaust a "heavy" like Darkaiser is describing.
At the end of the day, I think that what Darkaiser is describing is really just the narrative fluff that describes a successful combat where a lighter armored character defeats a heavier armored one, and not really anything that can easily be adapted as an actual mechanical effect of general application. I could see a Rogue or Fighter subclass specializing in some sort of ability that forces foes to make a Con save or suffer exhaustion after the player takes the Dodge action and is missed... but releasing a new houserule that's going to be in effect in every combat for the whole campaign probably will just unbalance things in ways you don't anticipate.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
5e already has mechanics that allow this kind of fighting. Making homebrew rules would render those builds irrelevant.
I'm talking about classes with higher than average movement, and feats like [feat]Mobile[/feat] and items or spells that can haste. Some classes get "don't provoke attacks of opportunity if you attack" as part of their sub-classes.
For example, a Rogue with Mobile feat and Cunning Action stays 40 feet away from a heavily armored target:
He moves his 40 feet to get in melee range, makes an attack action, then uses cunning action to dash 40 feet back. No attacks of opportunity, the heavy target can't close the distance to engage. Exactly the kind of combat you described.
EXCEPT: Hold action by the target can put a crimp in your plans. But this is OK, can't be 100% immune to retaliation.
@HolySeraph
I wouldn't link the second rule to con, but rather they characters primary stat
It doesn't really make sense to nerf a wizard with a con save. Intelligence makes sense for their save since they are usually concentrating on casting spells etc..
A little harder for wiz/cha saves (rp wise) but it would help not to nerf certain characters that don't favor con as a primary stat.
I think you're right. Those were just ideas I had, I did not develop them. I just took the chase rules (DMG p. 252) and transferred to another use, with minor adjustments.
Though, as I said, I did not use those rules. It adds a level of complexity that in my opinion would not pay off. If I ever take on them again, I'll definitely consider what you said, because it really makes a lot of sense. Maybe divide it in mental exhaustion and physical exhaustion. But this is a topic for another thread.
HolySeraph, Have you done anything more with these ideas? I like the first rule, tying HP to exhaustion. It makes HP actually mean something, not just an energy bar that goes up and down. You mention snowballing the players- debilitating them at low HP. Hell yes characters should be debilitated as their HP goes down! I can't imagine that a person can get stabbed and blasted with spells and they're totally OK until they hit 0 HP. I can't believe that there are still no metrics for performance degradation from injury.
I use a homebrew HP mechanic in one of my games, testing out something that might work with what the OP presented.
The players start with one extra hit die + con mod but as a second pool from their normal HP. This pool of HP only increases with every 4th character level and is always a max roll.
The players have helped me coin the normal HP pool as "Fighting spirit" and the second, smaller, pool as "Health". As you go through the paces of combat and take damage you reduce your "Fighting spirit" first. Once that pool hits 0 you move on to your "Health" and then it becomes tricky. At that point in time you have disadvantage on any attack, spell, or action that is considered aggressive toward the opponents, Defensive actions, spells, or similar are treated as normal. This helps re-enforce that you are grievously wounded and should probably do something about it. It's also scary, since that "Health" pool is so small, because one attack could knock you out.
I'm caught as to whether I should have any overflow damage zero out once "Fighting spirit" is depleted, or to have it roll over. That's why this is in testing right now, to see how it plays out. The players enjoy it because it is a little more HP than normal and a warning when things are going south. I like it because I can have fun with combats and still know the players have a way to see that they're overwhelmed rather than fight to the death every time. So far the only downside I've come across is that the players don't always remember the penalties, but this is a new approach and it's easy to miss things like that during combat.
I know this is a boring answer, but I'd personally do nothing...HP isn't just a measure of actual wounds that can be taken, but battle fatigue. The heavier combatant is going to get hurt less often because of the higher AC, and slowly begin to fatigue the fighter...there really doesn't need to be new mechanics for this, rather a change of staging in your theater of the mind when dealing with combat in general.