I am looking for clarification since this isn't directly addressed, and seems to have a couple of conflicts.
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
(Emphasis mine.) So from this there is an inference that Cantrips cannot be learned.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
This formula tracks with the "can't learn Cantrips" inference, since [level * (2hours + 50gp)] would make a Cantrip 0 * (2hours + 50gp) which equals 0 time, 0 cost. But then again, Cantrips are like grade-school level magic, so maybe there is an argument to have them copied for essentially free?
Now, the DMG and DDB item section both have this passage:
A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell’s level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed.
And Cantrips are available on Spell Scrolls.
Finally, XGTE has a Downtime table for Scribing a Spell Scroll, which has different times for copying than a Wizards Spellbook (I guess these are explained as extra effort making the Scroll more legible and idiot-proof.)
So, all that for the question: Can a Wizard learn Cantrips? If yes: Can they only be learned from Scrolls, or from other Wizards? Even more niche: Can a Wizard learn a Cantrip from a non-wizard? Does it have to be a Wizard spell? (Example: Can a Wizard learn Druidcraft?)
No. You can only gain Cantrips from class features, racial traits or feats (or similar), never scribe them from any source. You could put a cantrip on a scroll, but the scroll is only useable to cast, not to scribe. A wizard's spellbook is "the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind".
CANTRIPS At 1st level, you know three cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. You learn additional wizard cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Wizard table.
That's from page 114 of the PHB. The other levels that you get cantrips at are level 4 and level 10.
No. You can only gain Cantrips from class features, racial traits or feats (or similar), never scribe them from any source. You could put a cantrip on a scroll, but the scroll is only useable to cast, not to scribe. A wizard's spellbook is "the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind".
Got any specific sources? I'm looking for a definitive no, because the DMG spell scroll entry implies a yes.
CANTRIPS At 1st level, you know three cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. You learn additional wizard cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Wizard table.
That's from page 114 of the PHB. The other levels that you get cantrips at are level 4 and level 10.
My reading of this can go two ways. One is that Cantrips Known is a hard limit. The other is that the table is illustrating that you don't gain one or more Cantrips per level in the same way you do spells. I'm aware the second reading is the more generous, but it's a possible, probable interpretation of the Rules As Written when viewed in conjunction with the DMG item description of Spell Scrolls.
A wizard's spellbook is "the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind".
Got any specific sources? I'm looking for a definitive no, because the DMG spell scroll entry implies a yes.
The source is the entire Wizard class description. Read the Spellcasting section there and it makes clear that Cantrips are not in your spellbook, you do not prepare or cast them using your spellbook, thus the concept of scribing cantrips into your spellbook from a scroll or anywhere else is moot. Cantrips are learned - higher level wizard spells are not learned, they are written in your spellbook and prepared daily from there before casting using slots. The two spellcasting methodologies are not interchangeable. If you did manage to end up with a cantrip scribed into your spellbook then you still couldn't cast it because the rules of a wizard only allow preparation of spellbook spells for which you have slots; you have no cantrip slots.
You don't get spell slots for cantrips and they aren't prepared the same way as spells (you don't switch them out after a night of rest).
Is your hope that you can copy it from a scroll into your spell book and then study your spell book to know the cantrip?
It stems from a question asked by a six year old who is rolling up a wizard: "Why can't I learn more Cantrips if they are easy?"
I had explained the levels, and that Cantrips are level zero since they are simple and memorized. I have to agree with his point that since you can learn more of the difficult spells, it follows that you should be able to learn more of the easy ones.
You don't get spell slots for cantrips and they aren't prepared the same way as spells (you don't switch them out after a night of rest).
It stems from a question asked by a six year old who is rolling up a wizard: "Why can't I learn more Cantrips if they are easy?"
Unfortunately you'll have to come up with your own lore reason for why that is the case, but the rules are clear about the separation of cantrips from normal spells for all classes. Whatever method that class has for acquiring, learning or preparing spells - cantrips are exempt from that method and just operate how cantrips do.
It stems from a question asked by a six year old who is rolling up a wizard: "Why can't I learn more Cantrips if they are easy?"
"You can learn more cantrips. You can learn them at level 4 and 10. You can also learn more cantrips by selecting a feat (such as magic initiate) at level __. Although the magic might be 'easier' it still takes you a while to master it."
IE: I would let them roleplay trying to master a new cantrip. I might even let them roll an arcana check to see if it works. I'd set a super high DC (30) when they first are 'learning' it and then a DC that scales down to something like 15-20 as they close in to level 4 or 10. Then once they hit a level to get the new cantrip, boom, they have mastered it.
I am looking for clarification since this isn't directly addressed, and seems to have a couple of conflicts.
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher,
I think that pretty much says it from the word jump. You can enter Spells levels 1-9 into your book, given the appropriate level. You cannot enter Level 0. RAW, anyhow.
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Thank you. ChrisW
Ones are righteous. And one day, we just might believe it.
When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed.
"A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied."
That sentence before your bit states scroll scribing is subject to the same rules as spellbook copying, meaning level 1+. Nothing about the rest of that description implies cantrips can be copied after explicitly stating it follows the rules of spellbook copying.
It stems from a question asked by a six year old who is rolling up a wizard: "Why can't I learn more Cantrips if they are easy?"
Cantrips aren't easy, they are practiced. The caster has spent months of years (or decades, for the long-lived races) casting the spell over mand over and over, until they can cas the spell with little effort.
Another way to look at it is that the level of magic required to cast them may be trivial, which is why you can cast them at will. However, to memorize the words and movements and to have the spell take up space in your brain is not. So you can only learn a limited number. As a DM I guess if a player really wanted to, I'd let him scribe a cantrip into his spellbook. However, then he would not just know that cantrip all the time, it would take the place of a prepared spell and cost a level 1 spell slot to cast, each of which you have limited.
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I am looking for clarification since this isn't directly addressed, and seems to have a couple of conflicts.
(Emphasis mine.) So from this there is an inference that Cantrips cannot be learned.
This formula tracks with the "can't learn Cantrips" inference, since [level * (2hours + 50gp)] would make a Cantrip 0 * (2hours + 50gp) which equals 0 time, 0 cost. But then again, Cantrips are like grade-school level magic, so maybe there is an argument to have them copied for essentially free?
Now, the DMG and DDB item section both have this passage:
And Cantrips are available on Spell Scrolls.
Finally, XGTE has a Downtime table for Scribing a Spell Scroll, which has different times for copying than a Wizards Spellbook (I guess these are explained as extra effort making the Scroll more legible and idiot-proof.)
So, all that for the question: Can a Wizard learn Cantrips? If yes: Can they only be learned from Scrolls, or from other Wizards? Even more niche: Can a Wizard learn a Cantrip from a non-wizard? Does it have to be a Wizard spell? (Example: Can a Wizard learn Druidcraft?)
No. You can only gain Cantrips from class features, racial traits or feats (or similar), never scribe them from any source. You could put a cantrip on a scroll, but the scroll is only useable to cast, not to scribe. A wizard's spellbook is "the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind".
CANTRIPS At 1st level, you know three cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. You learn additional wizard cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Wizard table.
That's from page 114 of the PHB. The other levels that you get cantrips at are level 4 and level 10.
Got any specific sources? I'm looking for a definitive no, because the DMG spell scroll entry implies a yes.
My reading of this can go two ways. One is that Cantrips Known is a hard limit. The other is that the table is illustrating that you don't gain one or more Cantrips per level in the same way you do spells. I'm aware the second reading is the more generous, but it's a possible, probable interpretation of the Rules As Written when viewed in conjunction with the DMG item description of Spell Scrolls.
You don't get spell slots for cantrips and they aren't prepared the same way as spells (you don't switch them out after a night of rest).
Is your hope that you can copy it from a scroll into your spell book and then study your spell book to know the cantrip?
The source is the entire Wizard class description. Read the Spellcasting section there and it makes clear that Cantrips are not in your spellbook, you do not prepare or cast them using your spellbook, thus the concept of scribing cantrips into your spellbook from a scroll or anywhere else is moot. Cantrips are learned - higher level wizard spells are not learned, they are written in your spellbook and prepared daily from there before casting using slots. The two spellcasting methodologies are not interchangeable. If you did manage to end up with a cantrip scribed into your spellbook then you still couldn't cast it because the rules of a wizard only allow preparation of spellbook spells for which you have slots; you have no cantrip slots.
It stems from a question asked by a six year old who is rolling up a wizard: "Why can't I learn more Cantrips if they are easy?"
I had explained the levels, and that Cantrips are level zero since they are simple and memorized. I have to agree with his point that since you can learn more of the difficult spells, it follows that you should be able to learn more of the easy ones.
Unfortunately you'll have to come up with your own lore reason for why that is the case, but the rules are clear about the separation of cantrips from normal spells for all classes. Whatever method that class has for acquiring, learning or preparing spells - cantrips are exempt from that method and just operate how cantrips do.
"You can learn more cantrips. You can learn them at level 4 and 10. You can also learn more cantrips by selecting a feat (such as magic initiate) at level __. Although the magic might be 'easier' it still takes you a while to master it."
IE: I would let them roleplay trying to master a new cantrip. I might even let them roll an arcana check to see if it works. I'd set a super high DC (30) when they first are 'learning' it and then a DC that scales down to something like 15-20 as they close in to level 4 or 10. Then once they hit a level to get the new cantrip, boom, they have mastered it.
I think that pretty much says it from the word jump. You can enter Spells levels 1-9 into your book, given the appropriate level. You cannot enter Level 0. RAW, anyhow.
Thank you.
ChrisW
Ones are righteous. And one day, we just might believe it.
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"A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied."
That sentence before your bit states scroll scribing is subject to the same rules as spellbook copying, meaning level 1+. Nothing about the rest of that description implies cantrips can be copied after explicitly stating it follows the rules of spellbook copying.
Cantrips aren't easy, they are practiced. The caster has spent months of years (or decades, for the long-lived races) casting the spell over mand over and over, until they can cas the spell with little effort.
Another way to look at it is that the level of magic required to cast them may be trivial, which is why you can cast them at will. However, to memorize the words and movements and to have the spell take up space in your brain is not. So you can only learn a limited number. As a DM I guess if a player really wanted to, I'd let him scribe a cantrip into his spellbook. However, then he would not just know that cantrip all the time, it would take the place of a prepared spell and cost a level 1 spell slot to cast, each of which you have limited.