My group is about to fight an adult red dragon that worships Tiamat and we are really scared being only lvl 6! Me playin the charismatic warlock, and thinking outside the box was thinkin to pull a mix of some HARD pursuassion, intimidation and thaumaturgy on him!
My plan was to be all like "fellow worshiper of tiamat, no need to kill us! To prove she has accepted me as a spy she has granted me protection from flame! Launch your big bad breath attack and I shall show you!" In a sense.
I would then use thaumaturgy to snuff the flames in a small area around me giving the illusion that i am literally engulfed in flames and also being a tiefling with fire resistance doesnt hurt.....my question is, that is this possible AND would i be able to change the color the flame seeing as how the wording just says "flame" rather than normal or non-magical?
RAW, I don't think thaumaturgy would give you any extra protection from flame attacks, and definitely wouldn't give you any substantial defense against a red dragon's breath attack. A cantrip can't really nullify a CR17 creature's signature move.
As a DM, I'd probably let you use it to change the color of the flame or create the illusion that the flames around you are obeying you; changing that appearance seems within the scope of what the spell's intended to do. You'd still have to take the damage though. Probably have you make some sort of check - Charisma/Deception maybe, DC set by how much damage you took somehow? - to convince the dragon that you weren't really hurt by the flames, even though you were. That's all me making up how I'd adjudicate though, I try to be a "Yes, and..." DM so it's totally legit by the rules if some other DM just says no.
That would still just be the start of the challenges though - adult red dragon has INT 16 and WIS 13, so they are substantially smarter than the average person and probably smarter than all of the martial classes in your party. So you should probably expect to provide additional proof of your claims besides "I have fire resistance and/or some control over fire"!
The problem is with timing. Thaumaturgy is an action not a reaction, and even using the ready would take place after the trigger (the trigger being you on fire).
Up to DM if course. The rules are not really in your favor, but since this is not combat, maybe (a dangerous precedent though).
If I were you, I might down play the taunt a bit. Rather than ask to receive a fire breath, just put out a torch so it doesn't burn you. Maybe have other torch flames turn into the 5 chromatic dragon colors.
My DM isnt the most flexible or adaptable out there. Are you suggesting to try what i said about the little "safety bubble"? If not it seems there would be some conflict over using thaumaturgy like how you would use control flames. Any suggestions? I also have minor illusion and unseen servent if that gives u any other ideas. Im curious as to what part of the whole "please for the love of god dont kill us" bit, I would roll for pursuasion.
To this end, I would think of a breath attack as a continuous stream of flames. Even if you snuff a small amount out, you will quickly be engulfed again by new flames. So I do not think this would work.
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@kaboom979 the thing that makes me think that it would work is that it specifically says to "dim" a flame. And since a red dragons breath attack isnt magical, I dont see why I wouldnt be able to dim the breath attack in a small little bubble of safety for me.
You can cause flames to flicker, brighten, dim, or change color. You can't change how hot they are and how much damage they do. Even druidcraft (which allows you to light or snuff a torch or small fire) wouldn't have enough of an effect.
As a DM, I would allow the cantrip to remove the visual consequences of the breath (burned clothes, charred skin, etc), and change the visuals. Considering the character is expecting it, I would also probably grand grant advantage on the Dex save. This makes it possible to resist the attack. (maths: an 18d6 attack would deal an average of 63 damage, Dex for half is 31, resistance makes it 15)
If you're able to succeed on your saving throw, and maybe a concentration check, I think I would let you come out all badass-like. This makes it possible to do what you want, without breaking any balance.
So im confused on a couple of things my man. This is still my first campaign but I have learned so much in the 3 months we have been running it!
I am unsure what you mean by a grand advantage?
Dont understand how a DEX save would be better than i guess a CON save here. I was under the impression DEX was more for agility type of stuff, and CON was basically bearing through the pain?
Are you suggesting to capitalize on my fire resistance being a Tiefling to minimize the damage and then use Minor illusion to mask any visible damage?
So im confused on a couple of things my man. This is still my first campaign but I have learned so much in the 3 months we have been running it!
I am unsure what you mean by a grand advantage?
Dont understand how a DEX save would be better than i guess a CON save here. I was under the impression DEX was more for agility type of stuff, and CON was basically bearing through the pain?
Are you suggesting to capitalize on my fire resistance being a Tiefling to minimize the damage and then use Minor illusion to mask any visible damage?
@Maestrino Well see thats the thing about how fire itself works. Not in every scenario of course, but generally the more light a flame can produce, the hotter it is. Therefore in this situation, if you are able to control the brightness of a flame from thaumaturgy, it doesnt make sense to me how you could dim a flame by......70% but it is still just as hot as if you hadnt. Thats where my confusion is coming from.
So im confused on a couple of things my man. This is still my first campaign but I have learned so much in the 3 months we have been running it!
I am unsure what you mean by a grand advantage?
Dont understand how a DEX save would be better than i guess a CON save here. I was under the impression DEX was more for agility type of stuff, and CON was basically bearing through the pain?
Are you suggesting to capitalize on my fire resistance being a Tiefling to minimize the damage and then use Minor illusion to mask any visible damage?
What I mean is that I should proofread myself before clicking "post", I meant "grant", not grand ;)
The Dragon's breath is what triggers the Dex saving throw. So basically it would go:
- Warlock taunts adult dragon, saying he's protected by Tiamat, and offer to prove himself by withstanding the breath of this creature.
- Dragon breathes on the Warlock, Dex saving throw. Because the Warlock was expecting this breath, I would let him roll with advantage.
- Warlock takes damage, but I let him use Thaumaturgy to slightly control the flame, in order to appear as though the flame didn't do anything to him. I prefer this to minor illusion, because an illusion would have to stay in place. I would also require a concentration check from him, the DC would depend on the damage taken (so a Con save DC10 or half damage, whichever is higher).
- If they fail the concentration check, well, bummer, it was a good plan, but it failed. If they succeed, the dragon is impressed, and will probably start believing them (he might need a little more convincing, but I would give advantage on subsequent charisma checks to the player).
That's not my perspective as a player, that's what I, as a DM, would offer my player who would want to do that. This isn't a Rules As Written (RAW) interpretation of the cantrip, but I think it's an extremely cool thing to do, so it's my Rule Of Cool, that is meant to give my player a chance to be awesome and reward their creativity.
Taking the Dodge action grants Advantage on Dexterity saving throws, so no need to houserule that, but to maintain the facade I would call for a Performance or Deception check against the dragon's Insight.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Taking the Dodge action grants Advantage on Dexterity saving throws, so no need to houserule that, but to maintain the facade I would call for a Performance or Deception check against the dragon's Insight.
There's a need to houserule because if you use your action to dodge, you can't really use it to ready a cast of thaumaturgy. We're using the fact we're out of combat to throw initiative out the window and give a character basically 2 actions.
I thought about making him roll Perfomance/Deception, but I think there's enough roll involved already, and I want it to succeed, because it's cool. Maybe as a backup in case the concentration roll failed, but I wouldn't require it otherwise.
Taking the Dodge action grants Advantage on Dexterity saving throws, so no need to houserule that, but to maintain the facade I would call for a Performance or Deception check against the dragon's Insight.
Also, by taking the Dodge action, your PC would obviously be dodging. That would pretty much dissolve any hope of convincing the dragon that your character is immune to their dragon breath. Now, if you were to perhaps cast a Silent Image spell in front of you prior to entering the Dragon's lair, you might be able to pull this off without using Thaumaturgy in the first place, but I don't know if the OP has Silent Image (or its upgraded version) prepared. There would still be a concentration issue, though.
Also, by taking the Dodge action, your PC would obviously be dodging. That would pretty much dissolve any hope of convincing the dragon that your character is immune to their dragon breath. Now, if you were to perhaps cast a Silent Image spell in front of you prior to entering the Dragon's lair, you might be able to pull this off without using Thaumaturgy in the first place, but I don't know if the OP has Silent Image (or its upgraded version) prepared. There would still be a concentration issue, though.
The answer is no. I literally just rolled this character and the only spells I can remember off the top of my head is minor illusion, eldritch blast (with knockback invocation), thaumaturgy, find familiar, unseen servant, and lightning lasso. I have a couple of others, its just these are the only ones I can think of right now.
Givin the situation, anyone thinking of some clever ways to try to convince this dragon not to eat us all?
@Maestrino Well see thats the thing about how fire itself works. Not in every scenario of course, but generally the more light a flame can produce, the hotter it is. Therefore in this situation, if you are able to control the brightness of a flame from thaumaturgy, it doesnt make sense to me how you could dim a flame by......70% but it is still just as hot as if you hadnt. Thats where my confusion is coming from.
In this case it is specifically intending to change the illumination level of the flame, not the heat, force, or other features. Otherwise this cantrip would be abused as an anti-fire spell. If you're confused about how this would work in relation to physics, well, it's magic...
You instantaneously extinguish the flames within the cube.
Though in either case I would make you roll Sleight of Hand against the Dragon's perception to not notice you casting the spell. Dragons are not dumb, nor easily tricked.
In this case it is specifically intending to change the illumination level of the flame, not the heat, force, or other features. Otherwise this cantrip would be abused as an anti-fire spell. If you're confused about how this would work in relation to physics, well, it's magic...
You instantaneously extinguish the flames within the cube.
Though in either case I would make you roll Sleight of Hand against the Dragon's perception to not notice you casting the spell. Dragons are not dumb, nor easily tricked.
Thats very true and makes sense, thanks man!.....still running out of viable ideas on how the heck to convince/trick this thing to not freaking eat us though
@Maestrino Well see thats the thing about how fire itself works. Not in every scenario of course, but generally the more light a flame can produce, the hotter it is. Therefore in this situation, if you are able to control the brightness of a flame from thaumaturgy, it doesnt make sense to me how you could dim a flame by......70% but it is still just as hot as if you hadnt. Thats where my confusion is coming from.
In this case it is specifically intending to change the illumination level of the flame, not the heat, force, or other features. Otherwise this cantrip would be abused as an anti-fire spell. If you're confused about how this would work in relation to physics, well, it's magic...
You instantaneously extinguish the flames within the cube.
Though in either case I would make you roll Sleight of Hand against the Dragon's perception to not notice you casting the spell. Dragons are not dumb, nor easily tricked.
I would even maybe ask for a Charisma (sleight of hand) since you'd be using your magic (which is channeled through your charisma). The DMG has a paragraph on substituting Stat scores with skills such as a beefcake using Strength (intimidation) instead of Charisma (intimidation) or that tying/untying a difficult knot is suggested to use (sleight of hand) since it's more than just pure dexterity and would be using your knowledge of tying 'proper' knots to do it successfully.
This works by adding your proficiency modifier ONLY if you are proficient in (sleight of hand) at all, and THEN adding your CHA modifier INSTEAD of your DEX mod.. At the very least this may give a +1-5 on the d20 without (sleight of hand) proficiency and depending on your level an addition +2-6 with it and when dealing with dragons every boost would count
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My group is about to fight an adult red dragon that worships Tiamat and we are really scared being only lvl 6! Me playin the charismatic warlock, and thinking outside the box was thinkin to pull a mix of some HARD pursuassion, intimidation and thaumaturgy on him!
My plan was to be all like "fellow worshiper of tiamat, no need to kill us! To prove she has accepted me as a spy she has granted me protection from flame! Launch your big bad breath attack and I shall show you!" In a sense.
I would then use thaumaturgy to snuff the flames in a small area around me giving the illusion that i am literally engulfed in flames and also being a tiefling with fire resistance doesnt hurt.....my question is, that is this possible AND would i be able to change the color the flame seeing as how the wording just says "flame" rather than normal or non-magical?
RAW, I don't think thaumaturgy would give you any extra protection from flame attacks, and definitely wouldn't give you any substantial defense against a red dragon's breath attack. A cantrip can't really nullify a CR17 creature's signature move.
As a DM, I'd probably let you use it to change the color of the flame or create the illusion that the flames around you are obeying you; changing that appearance seems within the scope of what the spell's intended to do. You'd still have to take the damage though. Probably have you make some sort of check - Charisma/Deception maybe, DC set by how much damage you took somehow? - to convince the dragon that you weren't really hurt by the flames, even though you were. That's all me making up how I'd adjudicate though, I try to be a "Yes, and..." DM so it's totally legit by the rules if some other DM just says no.
That would still just be the start of the challenges though - adult red dragon has INT 16 and WIS 13, so they are substantially smarter than the average person and probably smarter than all of the martial classes in your party. So you should probably expect to provide additional proof of your claims besides "I have fire resistance and/or some control over fire"!
The problem is with timing. Thaumaturgy is an action not a reaction, and even using the ready would take place after the trigger (the trigger being you on fire).
Up to DM if course. The rules are not really in your favor, but since this is not combat, maybe (a dangerous precedent though).
If I were you, I might down play the taunt a bit. Rather than ask to receive a fire breath, just put out a torch so it doesn't burn you. Maybe have other torch flames turn into the 5 chromatic dragon colors.
My DM isnt the most flexible or adaptable out there. Are you suggesting to try what i said about the little "safety bubble"? If not it seems there would be some conflict over using thaumaturgy like how you would use control flames. Any suggestions? I also have minor illusion and unseen servent if that gives u any other ideas. Im curious as to what part of the whole "please for the love of god dont kill us" bit, I would roll for pursuasion.
To this end, I would think of a breath attack as a continuous stream of flames. Even if you snuff a small amount out, you will quickly be engulfed again by new flames. So I do not think this would work.
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@kaboom979 the thing that makes me think that it would work is that it specifically says to "dim" a flame. And since a red dragons breath attack isnt magical, I dont see why I wouldnt be able to dim the breath attack in a small little bubble of safety for me.
You can cause flames to flicker, brighten, dim, or change color. You can't change how hot they are and how much damage they do. Even druidcraft (which allows you to light or snuff a torch or small fire) wouldn't have enough of an effect.
As a DM, I would allow the cantrip to remove the visual consequences of the breath (burned clothes, charred skin, etc), and change the visuals. Considering the character is expecting it, I would also probably
grandgrant advantage on the Dex save. This makes it possible to resist the attack. (maths: an 18d6 attack would deal an average of 63 damage, Dex for half is 31, resistance makes it 15)If you're able to succeed on your saving throw, and maybe a concentration check, I think I would let you come out all badass-like. This makes it possible to do what you want, without breaking any balance.
I think this would be a fair compromise ?
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Yeah I think that's a little beyond the power of that cantrip.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
So im confused on a couple of things my man. This is still my first campaign but I have learned so much in the 3 months we have been running it!
I am unsure what you mean by a grand advantage?
Dont understand how a DEX save would be better than i guess a CON save here. I was under the impression DEX was more for agility type of stuff, and CON was basically bearing through the pain?
Are you suggesting to capitalize on my fire resistance being a Tiefling to minimize the damage and then use Minor illusion to mask any visible damage?
@ClementP
So im confused on a couple of things my man. This is still my first campaign but I have learned so much in the 3 months we have been running it!
I am unsure what you mean by a grand advantage?
Dont understand how a DEX save would be better than i guess a CON save here. I was under the impression DEX was more for agility type of stuff, and CON was basically bearing through the pain?
Are you suggesting to capitalize on my fire resistance being a Tiefling to minimize the damage and then use Minor illusion to mask any visible damage?
@Maestrino Well see thats the thing about how fire itself works. Not in every scenario of course, but generally the more light a flame can produce, the hotter it is. Therefore in this situation, if you are able to control the brightness of a flame from thaumaturgy, it doesnt make sense to me how you could dim a flame by......70% but it is still just as hot as if you hadnt. Thats where my confusion is coming from.
What I mean is that I should proofread myself before clicking "post", I meant "grant", not grand ;)
The Dragon's breath is what triggers the Dex saving throw. So basically it would go:
- Warlock taunts adult dragon, saying he's protected by Tiamat, and offer to prove himself by withstanding the breath of this creature.
- Dragon breathes on the Warlock, Dex saving throw. Because the Warlock was expecting this breath, I would let him roll with advantage.
- Warlock takes damage, but I let him use Thaumaturgy to slightly control the flame, in order to appear as though the flame didn't do anything to him. I prefer this to minor illusion, because an illusion would have to stay in place. I would also require a concentration check from him, the DC would depend on the damage taken (so a Con save DC10 or half damage, whichever is higher).
- If they fail the concentration check, well, bummer, it was a good plan, but it failed. If they succeed, the dragon is impressed, and will probably start believing them (he might need a little more convincing, but I would give advantage on subsequent charisma checks to the player).
That's not my perspective as a player, that's what I, as a DM, would offer my player who would want to do that. This isn't a Rules As Written (RAW) interpretation of the cantrip, but I think it's an extremely cool thing to do, so it's my Rule Of Cool, that is meant to give my player a chance to be awesome and reward their creativity.
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Taking the Dodge action grants Advantage on Dexterity saving throws, so no need to houserule that, but to maintain the facade I would call for a Performance or Deception check against the dragon's Insight.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
There's a need to houserule because if you use your action to dodge, you can't really use it to ready a cast of thaumaturgy. We're using the fact we're out of combat to throw initiative out the window and give a character basically 2 actions.
I thought about making him roll Perfomance/Deception, but I think there's enough roll involved already, and I want it to succeed, because it's cool. Maybe as a backup in case the concentration roll failed, but I wouldn't require it otherwise.
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Also, by taking the Dodge action, your PC would obviously be dodging. That would pretty much dissolve any hope of convincing the dragon that your character is immune to their dragon breath. Now, if you were to perhaps cast a Silent Image spell in front of you prior to entering the Dragon's lair, you might be able to pull this off without using Thaumaturgy in the first place, but I don't know if the OP has Silent Image (or its upgraded version) prepared. There would still be a concentration issue, though.
The answer is no. I literally just rolled this character and the only spells I can remember off the top of my head is minor illusion, eldritch blast (with knockback invocation), thaumaturgy, find familiar, unseen servant, and lightning lasso. I have a couple of others, its just these are the only ones I can think of right now.
Givin the situation, anyone thinking of some clever ways to try to convince this dragon not to eat us all?
In this case it is specifically intending to change the illumination level of the flame, not the heat, force, or other features. Otherwise this cantrip would be abused as an anti-fire spell. If you're confused about how this would work in relation to physics, well, it's magic...
If you have Control Flames you might pull it off.
Though in either case I would make you roll Sleight of Hand against the Dragon's perception to not notice you casting the spell. Dragons are not dumb, nor easily tricked.
Thats very true and makes sense, thanks man!.....still running out of viable ideas on how the heck to convince/trick this thing to not freaking eat us though
I would even maybe ask for a Charisma (sleight of hand) since you'd be using your magic (which is channeled through your charisma). The DMG has a paragraph on substituting Stat scores with skills such as a beefcake using Strength (intimidation) instead of Charisma (intimidation) or that tying/untying a difficult knot is suggested to use (sleight of hand) since it's more than just pure dexterity and would be using your knowledge of tying 'proper' knots to do it successfully.
This works by adding your proficiency modifier ONLY if you are proficient in (sleight of hand) at all, and THEN adding your CHA modifier INSTEAD of your DEX mod.. At the very least this may give a +1-5 on the d20 without (sleight of hand) proficiency and depending on your level an addition +2-6 with it and when dealing with dragons every boost would count