So the BBEG I have in mind for my campaign right now was built using the same mechanics as building PCs. I think it's interesting to use the same powers available to the PCs and make a real challenge with it. Slightly tweaked of course for thematic and cinematic elements, of course.
So what threat level would a Lvl 13 death domain cleric be?
Figure out how much damage they can do over the first three rounds if they go all-out and hold nothing back. Look at their health and AC. Then use the guide for creating monsters in the DMG to estimate the CR.
As you can see, no one else can tell you what CR a “13th-level Death cleric” would be, because it’s highly dependent on spell selection, equipment, and stats.
The encounter builder tables in Xanathar's Guide can be helpful. Looking at the multiple monsters table, a CR 7 creature matches up 1:1 with a level 13 character, which also comports with the CR= about 1/2 level rule DxJxC mentions.
It's difficult to calculate CR with spells, and smite abilities for paladins and clerics, and other abilities that can only be used once. I agree, Level 13 death domain cleric should be around CR 6 or 7.
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PCs don't translate well as monsters because they don't have enough hit points—they're glass cannons compared to most monsters. I'd suggest doubling the character's HP before changing it to a monster stat block.
That said, I'd put it around CR 6, which I think would be fairly challenging for a 4th level (solo) or 5th level (with LOTS of minions, 5th is a big jump) party.
Finally, I would avoid opening with any spells that can one-shot a PC—fights are more fun when the monster's spells draw out the combat, not smack people out right away.
"You need to bother with Challenge Rating to rate the challenge."
No, you actually don't.
You simply determine how hard you want the encounter to be and then run the encounter. You can make that level 13 Death Cleric an EASY encounter for a level 1 party if you wish.
Since you are creating it, and putting it into your campaign, you should already have a pretty good idea when the party will encounter it. Then you just need to decide how EASY/MEDIUM/HARD or (preferably not) DEADLY the encounter will be at that time. If the party gets there early, you decide to either take it easy on them or let the chips fall where they may. If they get there late, you let them breeze through it, or through in some additional challenges to the encounter.
Since the first part of the CR system on customs is to determine CR, it is the most obtuse circular logic that can exist.
"You need to bother with Challenge Rating to rate the challenge."
No, you actually don't.
You simply determine how hard you want the encounter to be and then run the encounter. You can make that level 13 Death Cleric an EASY encounter for a level 1 party if you wish.
Since you are creating it, and putting it into your campaign, you should already have a pretty good idea when the party will encounter it. Then you just need to decide how EASY/MEDIUM/HARD or (preferably not) DEADLY the encounter will be at that time. If the party gets there early, you decide to either take it easy on them or let the chips fall where they may. If they get there late, you let them breeze through it, or through in some additional challenges to the encounter.
How do you determine if an encounter is easy or medium without CR? And yeah you can change the cleric's difficulty by changing its spells, weapons, stats, etc, but that would result in a lower CR, thus CR rates the challenge.
Since the first part of the CR system on customs is to determine CR, it is the most obtuse circular logic that can exist.
Is there anything wrong with wanting to CR a character? It seems to me that this thread is asking how to do it and not asking about the validity of doing it.
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
"You need to bother with Challenge Rating to rate the challenge."
No, you actually don't.
You simply determine how hard you want the encounter to be and then run the encounter. You can make that level 13 Death Cleric an EASY encounter for a level 1 party if you wish.
Since you are creating it, and putting it into your campaign, you should already have a pretty good idea when the party will encounter it. Then you just need to decide how EASY/MEDIUM/HARD or (preferably not) DEADLY the encounter will be at that time. If the party gets there early, you decide to either take it easy on them or let the chips fall where they may. If they get there late, you let them breeze through it, or through in some additional challenges to the encounter.
How do you determine if an encounter is easy or medium without CR? And yeah you can change the cleric's difficulty by changing its spells, weapons, stats, etc, but that would result in a lower CR, thus CR rates the challenge.
Since the first part of the CR system on customs is to determine CR, it is the most obtuse circular logic that can exist.
To what is this referring?
pg 274 of the DMG.
"Pick the expected challenge rating (CR) for your monster", then determine stats, then determine modifiers, then determine final CR. Which is asinine, start with the stats for your party (current or future) and then modify and then determine CR (if you feel you need it)
As far as how do I determine if an encounter is Easy, Medium, or Hard? As the DM I determine that anyway, regardless of what the numbers, module, stats, etc. say. For more crunchy method, I know what the party can and can't handle (or at least should be able to handle or not) and if making up a challenge it would go something like this:
AC: EASY 75% hit rate based on average party attack modifier, MEDIUM 65%, HARD 60%, Deadly is stupid to ever plan around. hp: EASY 1/2 potential party output in one round per critter, MEDIUM 1 round ppo/rnd, HARD 1.5 round ppo/rnd saves: EASY 35% success, MEDIUM 50% success, HARD 65% success to Hit: EASY 35% hit based on average party AC, MEDIUM 50%, HARD 65% 3 rnd avg damage: EASY 10% of average party hp, MEDIUM 25%, HARD 33% Save DC: EASY 65% party success avg, MEDIUM 50% party success avg, HARD 35% party avg
Mix and match the above and figure they are all ranges. Abilities/spells/other modifiers are applied using DMG as a guide, but taking into account what the party can and cannot do (so poison immunity on a critter counts for nothing against a party which does not use/has no access to poison damage) The DM will "attune" to their party and will be able to adjust/design an encounter of any type which will be specific to the party's strengths and weaknesses to be as challenging (or not) as the DM wishes, to the extent of the foreseen.
Main thing is tactics, environment, and "flavour".
"Pick the expected challenge rating (CR) for your monster", then determine stats, then determine modifiers, then determine final CR. Which is asinine, start with the stats for your party (current or future) and then modify and then determine CR (if you feel you need it)
Oh that. It is an approximation. The DMG says exactly why you need it to start and also that it isn't that important. Namely, proficiency bonus is based on CR, attack mod and save DC are based on proficiency, attack and DC influences CR. You should already have an idea how tough you are making the monster before you start anyway, so no big deal.
As far as how do I determine if an encounter is Easy, Medium, or Hard? As the DM I determine that anyway, regardless of what the numbers, module, stats, etc. say. For more crunchy method, I know what the party can and can't handle (or at least should be able to handle or not) and if making up a challenge it would go something like this:
AC: EASY 75% hit rate based on average party attack modifier, MEDIUM 65%, HARD 60%, Deadly is stupid to ever plan around. hp: EASY 1/2 potential party output in one round per critter, MEDIUM 1 round ppo/rnd, HARD 1.5 round ppo/rnd saves: EASY 35% success, MEDIUM 50% success, HARD 65% success to Hit: EASY 35% hit based on average party AC, MEDIUM 50%, HARD 65% 3 rnd avg damage: EASY 10% of average party hp, MEDIUM 25%, HARD 33% Save DC: EASY 65% party success avg, MEDIUM 50% party success avg, HARD 35% party avg
Mix and match the above and figure they are all ranges. Abilities/spells/other modifiers are applied using DMG as a guide, but taking into account what the party can and cannot do (so poison immunity on a critter counts for nothing against a party which does not use/has no access to poison damage) The DM will "attune" to their party and will be able to adjust/design an encounter of any type which will be specific to the party's strengths and weaknesses to be as challenging (or not) as the DM wishes, to the extent of the foreseen.
Main thing is tactics, environment, and "flavour".
CR is based on all of these things. So instead of using those stats to find CR then be able to estimate the challenge based on number of monsters, etc. You make 6 different calculations per monster, total it up, then find the average? I'll stick to the easier CR method.
As people have said, the reliable way is to go to the back of the DMG under "Creating a Monster", and follow the instructions on calculating a CR.
A problem is that building a monster is not the same as creating a character. For example, the monsters have hit dice based on size, and characters have hit dice based on class. (That is why the humanoid NPCs all use D8s, regardless of if they are a fighter-type Gladiator or a wizard-type Archmage.) So there won't be a perfect match.
A short cut (less work, but more guessing involved) would be to use the table "XP Thresholds by Character Level" on page 82. If you had a party of one 13th level character, then fighting a single 13th level character (like a death domain cleric) in theory should be Hard, or maybe even Deadly.
For your cleric, that would be somewhere in the 3400 - 5100 range (probably on the lower end). CR 8 is 3900 XP, so that would be my "guestimate ". However, the "monster" cleric won't have as many magic items and scrolls and potions as a similar PC cleric, so you may decide CR 7 (2900 XP) is more appropriate. (If the "monster" cleric did have that many items, it would be unbalanced for your lower-level players to get all that loot after the fight.)
Beegred Thornpost - Lvl 8 Halfling Ranger - Out of the Abyss by Kerrec Drusk - Lvl 8 Half-Orc Life Cleric - The Long Road: Dragon Heist by Mingofaust (player & current DM) Hunferho Aelorothi - Lvl 5 Half-Elf Bard/Rogue - Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus (by Pokepaladdy) DM - Frontier City of Nunkreet (ended)
My experience in running players against NPC's who use character sheets in combat is that they almost always have too little health, and I need to double/triple it to make it a hard combat. Barbarians and Paladins are the exception to this.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
“Hard” - the monster going full force, using every multi-attack and legendary / lair action available to them.
“Medium” - same exact monster, but at the time the party shows up it just so happens to have finished fighting something else, so it’s either injured or has used up some of its strongest resources
“Easy” - same exact monster but there are environmental hazards beneficial only to the party, or a powerful NPC is helping them win the battle, or another strong monster shows up and focuses its anger on the main monster instead of the party
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So the BBEG I have in mind for my campaign right now was built using the same mechanics as building PCs. I think it's interesting to use the same powers available to the PCs and make a real challenge with it. Slightly tweaked of course for thematic and cinematic elements, of course.
So what threat level would a Lvl 13 death domain cleric be?
Figure out how much damage they can do over the first three rounds if they go all-out and hold nothing back. Look at their health and AC. Then use the guide for creating monsters in the DMG to estimate the CR.
As you can see, no one else can tell you what CR a “13th-level Death cleric” would be, because it’s highly dependent on spell selection, equipment, and stats.
In my experience, min-maxed PCs usually equate to a CR a little above half their level. The guide Saga mentioned can be found here:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/dungeon-masters-workshop#CreatingQuickMonsterStats
The values you will need are HP, AC, max damage for 3 rounds ÷3, and the attack bonus/saves it will rely on for that damage.
If you post a link to the character we can run the numbers for you.
The encounter builder tables in Xanathar's Guide can be helpful. Looking at the multiple monsters table, a CR 7 creature matches up 1:1 with a level 13 character, which also comports with the CR= about 1/2 level rule DxJxC mentions.
It's difficult to calculate CR with spells, and smite abilities for paladins and clerics, and other abilities that can only be used once. I agree, Level 13 death domain cleric should be around CR 6 or 7.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Why bother with cr just create the cleric as a character
They have. Now how strong should a party be before they fight it and how much exp should it give once defeated?
You need to bother with Challenge Rating to rate the challenge.
PCs don't translate well as monsters because they don't have enough hit points—they're glass cannons compared to most monsters. I'd suggest doubling the character's HP before changing it to a monster stat block.
That said, I'd put it around CR 6, which I think would be fairly challenging for a 4th level (solo) or 5th level (with LOTS of minions, 5th is a big jump) party.
Finally, I would avoid opening with any spells that can one-shot a PC—fights are more fun when the monster's spells draw out the combat, not smack people out right away.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
"You need to bother with Challenge Rating to rate the challenge."
No, you actually don't.
You simply determine how hard you want the encounter to be and then run the encounter. You can make that level 13 Death Cleric an EASY encounter for a level 1 party if you wish.
Since you are creating it, and putting it into your campaign, you should already have a pretty good idea when the party will encounter it. Then you just need to decide how EASY/MEDIUM/HARD or (preferably not) DEADLY the encounter will be at that time. If the party gets there early, you decide to either take it easy on them or let the chips fall where they may. If they get there late, you let them breeze through it, or through in some additional challenges to the encounter.
Since the first part of the CR system on customs is to determine CR, it is the most obtuse circular logic that can exist.
How do you determine if an encounter is easy or medium without CR? And yeah you can change the cleric's difficulty by changing its spells, weapons, stats, etc, but that would result in a lower CR, thus CR rates the challenge.
To what is this referring?
Is there anything wrong with wanting to CR a character? It seems to me that this thread is asking how to do it and not asking about the validity of doing it.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
pg 274 of the DMG.
"Pick the expected challenge rating (CR) for your monster", then determine stats, then determine modifiers, then determine final CR. Which is asinine, start with the stats for your party (current or future) and then modify and then determine CR (if you feel you need it)
As far as how do I determine if an encounter is Easy, Medium, or Hard? As the DM I determine that anyway, regardless of what the numbers, module, stats, etc. say. For more crunchy method, I know what the party can and can't handle (or at least should be able to handle or not) and if making up a challenge it would go something like this:
AC: EASY 75% hit rate based on average party attack modifier, MEDIUM 65%, HARD 60%, Deadly is stupid to ever plan around.
hp: EASY 1/2 potential party output in one round per critter, MEDIUM 1 round ppo/rnd, HARD 1.5 round ppo/rnd
saves: EASY 35% success, MEDIUM 50% success, HARD 65% success
to Hit: EASY 35% hit based on average party AC, MEDIUM 50%, HARD 65%
3 rnd avg damage: EASY 10% of average party hp, MEDIUM 25%, HARD 33%
Save DC: EASY 65% party success avg, MEDIUM 50% party success avg, HARD 35% party avg
Mix and match the above and figure they are all ranges. Abilities/spells/other modifiers are applied using DMG as a guide, but taking into account what the party can and cannot do (so poison immunity on a critter counts for nothing against a party which does not use/has no access to poison damage) The DM will "attune" to their party and will be able to adjust/design an encounter of any type which will be specific to the party's strengths and weaknesses to be as challenging (or not) as the DM wishes, to the extent of the foreseen.
Main thing is tactics, environment, and "flavour".
Oh that. It is an approximation. The DMG says exactly why you need it to start and also that it isn't that important. Namely, proficiency bonus is based on CR, attack mod and save DC are based on proficiency, attack and DC influences CR. You should already have an idea how tough you are making the monster before you start anyway, so no big deal.
CR is based on all of these things. So instead of using those stats to find CR then be able to estimate the challenge based on number of monsters, etc. You make 6 different calculations per monster, total it up, then find the average? I'll stick to the easier CR method.
Guess we’ll agree to disagree. 😉
in the dungeon master's guide on page 274, it has a table of the stats for each challenge rating.
There is no set rule for converting level to CR. However, I would say ball park would be 1 cr per 2.5 levels
It very much depends on the build.
As people have said, the reliable way is to go to the back of the DMG under "Creating a Monster", and follow the instructions on calculating a CR.
A problem is that building a monster is not the same as creating a character. For example, the monsters have hit dice based on size, and characters have hit dice based on class. (That is why the humanoid NPCs all use D8s, regardless of if they are a fighter-type Gladiator or a wizard-type Archmage.) So there won't be a perfect match.
A short cut (less work, but more guessing involved) would be to use the table "XP Thresholds by Character Level" on page 82. If you had a party of one 13th level character, then fighting a single 13th level character (like a death domain cleric) in theory should be Hard, or maybe even Deadly.
For your cleric, that would be somewhere in the 3400 - 5100 range (probably on the lower end). CR 8 is 3900 XP, so that would be my "guestimate ". However, the "monster" cleric won't have as many magic items and scrolls and potions as a similar PC cleric, so you may decide CR 7 (2900 XP) is more appropriate. (If the "monster" cleric did have that many items, it would be unbalanced for your lower-level players to get all that loot after the fight.)
Beegred Thornpost - Lvl 8 Halfling Ranger - Out of the Abyss by Kerrec
Drusk - Lvl 8 Half-Orc Life Cleric - The Long Road: Dragon Heist by Mingofaust (player & current DM)
Hunferho Aelorothi - Lvl 5 Half-Elf Bard/Rogue - Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus (by Pokepaladdy)
DM - Frontier City of Nunkreet (ended)
My experience in running players against NPC's who use character sheets in combat is that they almost always have too little health, and I need to double/triple it to make it a hard combat. Barbarians and Paladins are the exception to this.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
“Hard” - the monster going full force, using every multi-attack and legendary / lair action available to them.
“Medium” - same exact monster, but at the time the party shows up it just so happens to have finished fighting something else, so it’s either injured or has used up some of its strongest resources
“Easy” - same exact monster but there are environmental hazards beneficial only to the party, or a powerful NPC is helping them win the battle, or another strong monster shows up and focuses its anger on the main monster instead of the party