Fog cloud + blindfighting against enemies without blindsight

Hi!

I am running a campaign with an echoknight who has blindsight and fogcloud. This got me thinking. A lot of the creatures does not have blindsight and cannot see i fogcloud which makes the fights really easy for the players. I can see that a lot of the stronger creatures has truesight but as far as I can tell from the internet this does not allow them to see in fog cloud so how is this balanced? If you had three echo knights you would be unstopable this way or am I missing something?

That's right. Truesight (the same goes for Devil's Sight) allows seeing through Darkness, but not other Heavily Obscured types (e.g. the ones from Stinking Cloud or Fog Cloud).

But I wouldn't say you're unstoppable. You can still be affected by Area of Effect abilities, for example, and enemies can still attack you, but with Disadvantage.

It's also worth pointing out that the Echo Knight's "echo" doesn't have any senses of its own; the Echo Knight themselves needs to be able to see the target of their attack even if the attack is being made from the echo's space. You can't, for instance, cast Fog Cloud on a group of enemies outside your Blindsight range, then send the echo in to fight them. (Or, well, you could, but you'd be attacking at disadvantage since you can't see the targets.)

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah I guess your right. It's just to me it seems like a huge advantage both having the benefit of getting advantage on every attack and the enemy getting disadvantage. Take a scenario for example. 4 level 4 players against an assassin cr 8 is according to kobold plus deadly. But a fog cloud and four characters with blindfigthing would eat him alive in a fogcloud. And sure he could run away but four opportunity attacks with advantage and then they just make another fogcloud as soon as he gets out is an instant win. Now I know that this is exaggerated but even with just on character doing this you get a huge advantage with no penalties. 

I was running the thunderboar from icespire peak campaign and even though the characters were underleveled the fogcloud made the boar almost useless. The characters had already fought some other enemies so they werent even at their best but when the thunderboar came out the echoknight made the fogcloud and since he can use multiple attacks and has boomin blade it made both getting away and fighting impossible for the boar. Especially since the other characters could wait outside with spells ready and also since the echoknight has his echo which you can position next to the boar and then run away as the echoknight since the boar cannot make opportunity attacks in the fogcloud and so it either had to target the echo or get opportunity attacks from it. 

Sorry for the yapperthon

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

It's also worth pointing out that the Echo Knight's "echo" doesn't have any senses of its own; the Echo Knight themselves needs to be able to see the target of their attack even if the attack is being made from the echo's space. You can't, for instance, cast Fog Cloud on a group of enemies outside your Blindsight range, then send the echo in to fight them. (Or, well, you could, but you'd be attacking at disadvantage since you can't see the targets.)

 Technically wouldn't it be a straight roll, since they can't see you either? 

You're correct

True but as long as you are withing 10 feet of the target you can attack with the echo with advantage but since you can just run close and run away with no consequence it doesnt really matter 

Maybe a bit off topic but...

I'm assuming you're getting Blindsight from the Blind Fighting Fighting Style option for Tasha's. 

If the fighter uses their 7th level feature "Echo Avatar", could it...

• still "see" from its location (the actual fighter, not the Echo)? The feature states when you use this feature you are blinded, but with blind fighting you should still be able to perceive everything around you within a 10 foot radius.
• "see" using blindsight from the Echo's location? It states you can see and hear through the echo's eyes and ears for up to 10 minutes. I don't think it ever states what sense you must be using to be using blindsight, just that you don't rely on vision. So I feel you could argue that you could be using your hearing (like Daredevil), and therefor gain blindsight from the Echo's location as well. 

Quote from MaximusArael020 >>

Maybe a bit off topic but...

I'm assuming you're getting Blindsight from the Blind Fighting Fighting Style option for Tasha's. 

If the fighter uses their 7th level feature "Echo Avatar", could it...

• still "see" from its location (the actual fighter, not the Echo)? The feature states when you use this feature you are blinded, but with blind fighting you should still be able to perceive everything around you within a 10 foot radius.
• "see" using blindsight from the Echo's location? It states you can see and hear through the echo's eyes and ears for up to 10 minutes. I don't think it ever states what sense you must be using to be using blindsight, just that you don't rely on vision. So I feel you could argue that you could be using your hearing (like Daredevil), and therefor gain blindsight from the Echo's location as well. 

I think the answer to both of these questions is probably yes.

However, it's worth noting that there's an unfortunate problem with the Echo Avatar feature, which is that various people associated with its development have confirmed that the intent is that it can only be used for scouting and that you're not supposed to be able to make attacks from its position while you're using it that way. This isn't actually stated in the feature text at all, but apparently that's a mistake. Jeremy Crawford at one point stated that they were going to fix it in future printings. But they did not actually do that.

So, basically, as written it is seemingly possible to use Echo Avatar in conjunction with Blindsight to attack things that are within your Blindsight range from the Echo's position, but it definitely wasn't intended to work that way.