If demons and devils are able to summon others, what's to stop their summoned allies from ALSO summoning more allies, in a runaway, exponential growth of demons/devils?
If demons and devils are able to summon others, what's to stop their summoned allies from ALSO summoning more allies, in a runaway, exponential growth of demons/devils?
Am I missing something in the rules?
Demons and devils don’t really get along with each other too well.
so... their greed and their hatred. And they don’t want to seem weak and needs be backup to other demons and devils.
So as 5PercentGlory said, yes a demon would probably not summon a devil and vice versa, but I think what you're really asking is "If I summon a creature that can summon other creatures, why wouldn't they just summon another creature?"
There are some features that explicitly say that a creature summoned in that way cannot summon more creatures. Most of the creatures you can summon with spells specifically dedicated to summoning (e.g. summon greater demon) don't summon creatures with the ability to summon further. But some spells do allow this, such as the gate, a 9th level spell that you can use to forcibly grab a creature from any realm of existence and bring them to yours (if they fail a saving throw, and if the relevant higher power of that realm permits it - Asmodeus would probably find it funny and give them disadvantage on the saving throw, while Titiana or the Lady of Pain maaaaay not like it, depending on who you're trying to grab). If you're using a 9th level spell to summon a creature that is powerful enough to summon other creatures, and the feature doesn't explicitly state that the summoned creature can summon further, then I think it's totally fine if it starts summoning more creatures. Could it be an endless loop? Perhaps. Would there be some sort of story element that would intervene before this madness occurs? Almost definitely. Unless you're playing a very silly campaign, in which case I bet you'd have a lot of fun achieving your goals of silliness. :)
It did work in 1st edition AD&D, but in 5e I think all of summoner variant demons specify that summoned demons cannot themselves use summon, and even without that, most of them summon something weaker than themselves so the chain doesn't last forever. Now, it is possible to use a summoning spell to summon a summoner variant monster, but it's a bit dumb to do so because the summoned creatures are uncontrolled and act as allies of the monster, not allies of the summoner, and "I eat the foolish wizard's head" is a perfectly plausible action for an ally to take.
Also, that kind of thing tends to attract attention of godlike beings. People high enough to cast Gate have enemies that try to scry on them a lot. So we may be talking high level Wizards, if not actual Gods.
There is also the implication of a debt being owed to anything that answers the call of a summons. I mean, if you were a demon, and some other demon was calling you, you might as easily get pissed off at him as you were to help him if not for some other rp reasoning for accepting the call and especially for then acting in that other demons interests. Like imagine, you're a demon, you ain't got love for anything, especially not some a%^**& who just interrupted your morning. Why do you care?
Clearly they can't just get every demon in the abyss to all decide to come lend a hand. Most of those foul monsters would just as likely delight in the summoning demon's death and torture just as much as anything else.
Just my 2c. Just ask... how many other demons/devils/etc does this summoner actually have on his side willing to aid him? And, is it worth it to actually call in a favor for whatever it is they're doing or not.
This is doubly true for summoned creatures summoning more creatures. You came all the way up here to collect a favor from the dude summoning your butt, now you're going to go an squander it calling in your own favor on another demon to help out he guy who just summoned you? Not likely. No demon is so generous as that, just isn't their nature to call in a favor on someone else's behalf.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yes this is exactly the problem with demons which is why there are orders of paladins. They were created by the gods for the express purpose of protecting their pet populations from demons. Don't forget if a lot of demons hang out in your neighborhood for a month they create a permanent portal to their layer of the abyss, which is why a lot of paladin fortresses are built around an uncloseable demon gate in the basement (then it becomes a demon DRAIN. Great place to put your sphere of annihilation;). As observed earlier, the abyss has politics of its own and if one demon army extends itself too much their neighbors are sure to try to steal their level of the abyss. On the other hand a prime plane is a huge trade up. However flipping a whole plane to demonhood is going to discomfit the deities that currently farm that plane for worship, and they can see the future. So they send a few paladins and any other plucky heroes interested in protecting their entire world from destruction - but very few non paladins understand the full scale of the danger. This also means that powerful mages with high intelligence or wisdom stats will notice this pattern and realize that importing a demon army is a guaranteed recipe for war with all the paladins and deities on their plane as it leaves them little choice. Remember nobody likes demons infestations even other armies of demons;) In fact, just because your plane lost and the lich and their demon army have stomped everybody flat, doesn't mean ANOTHER demon army isn't coming right behind the first one to jack them and take their prize...
...and if all else fails, the fact that they can't beat demons on their own is why the gods accidentally created devils. Asmodeus is perfectly happy with the current situation where vast numbers of souls are corrupted from their normal paths to upper plains or the abyss and end up in the nine hells instead. Having the prime plane fall to the abyss is something he cannot allow any more than the gods can. Remember devils and demons both come from mortal souls (except for the infinite supply of additional demons coming from somewhere outside thru the outer layers of the abyss, which is why the current demon armies always need more troops to fend them off).
I have to admit, I'm a bit confused.
If demons and devils are able to summon others, what's to stop their summoned allies from ALSO summoning more allies, in a runaway, exponential growth of demons/devils?
Am I missing something in the rules?
Demons and devils don’t really get along with each other too well.
so... their greed and their hatred. And they don’t want to seem weak and needs be backup to other demons and devils.
things like that.
Watch me on twitch
So as 5PercentGlory said, yes a demon would probably not summon a devil and vice versa, but I think what you're really asking is "If I summon a creature that can summon other creatures, why wouldn't they just summon another creature?"
There are some features that explicitly say that a creature summoned in that way cannot summon more creatures. Most of the creatures you can summon with spells specifically dedicated to summoning (e.g. summon greater demon) don't summon creatures with the ability to summon further. But some spells do allow this, such as the gate, a 9th level spell that you can use to forcibly grab a creature from any realm of existence and bring them to yours (if they fail a saving throw, and if the relevant higher power of that realm permits it - Asmodeus would probably find it funny and give them disadvantage on the saving throw, while Titiana or the Lady of Pain maaaaay not like it, depending on who you're trying to grab). If you're using a 9th level spell to summon a creature that is powerful enough to summon other creatures, and the feature doesn't explicitly state that the summoned creature can summon further, then I think it's totally fine if it starts summoning more creatures. Could it be an endless loop? Perhaps. Would there be some sort of story element that would intervene before this madness occurs? Almost definitely. Unless you're playing a very silly campaign, in which case I bet you'd have a lot of fun achieving your goals of silliness. :)
It did work in 1st edition AD&D, but in 5e I think all of summoner variant demons specify that summoned demons cannot themselves use summon, and even without that, most of them summon something weaker than themselves so the chain doesn't last forever. Now, it is possible to use a summoning spell to summon a summoner variant monster, but it's a bit dumb to do so because the summoned creatures are uncontrolled and act as allies of the monster, not allies of the summoner, and "I eat the foolish wizard's head" is a perfectly plausible action for an ally to take.
Also, that kind of thing tends to attract attention of godlike beings. People high enough to cast Gate have enemies that try to scry on them a lot. So we may be talking high level Wizards, if not actual Gods.
There is also the implication of a debt being owed to anything that answers the call of a summons. I mean, if you were a demon, and some other demon was calling you, you might as easily get pissed off at him as you were to help him if not for some other rp reasoning for accepting the call and especially for then acting in that other demons interests. Like imagine, you're a demon, you ain't got love for anything, especially not some a%^**& who just interrupted your morning. Why do you care?
Clearly they can't just get every demon in the abyss to all decide to come lend a hand. Most of those foul monsters would just as likely delight in the summoning demon's death and torture just as much as anything else.
Just my 2c. Just ask... how many other demons/devils/etc does this summoner actually have on his side willing to aid him? And, is it worth it to actually call in a favor for whatever it is they're doing or not.
This is doubly true for summoned creatures summoning more creatures. You came all the way up here to collect a favor from the dude summoning your butt, now you're going to go an squander it calling in your own favor on another demon to help out he guy who just summoned you? Not likely. No demon is so generous as that, just isn't their nature to call in a favor on someone else's behalf.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yes this is exactly the problem with demons which is why there are orders of paladins. They were created by the gods for the express purpose of protecting their pet populations from demons. Don't forget if a lot of demons hang out in your neighborhood for a month they create a permanent portal to their layer of the abyss, which is why a lot of paladin fortresses are built around an uncloseable demon gate in the basement (then it becomes a demon DRAIN. Great place to put your sphere of annihilation;). As observed earlier, the abyss has politics of its own and if one demon army extends itself too much their neighbors are sure to try to steal their level of the abyss. On the other hand a prime plane is a huge trade up. However flipping a whole plane to demonhood is going to discomfit the deities that currently farm that plane for worship, and they can see the future. So they send a few paladins and any other plucky heroes interested in protecting their entire world from destruction - but very few non paladins understand the full scale of the danger. This also means that powerful mages with high intelligence or wisdom stats will notice this pattern and realize that importing a demon army is a guaranteed recipe for war with all the paladins and deities on their plane as it leaves them little choice. Remember nobody likes demons infestations even other armies of demons;) In fact, just because your plane lost and the lich and their demon army have stomped everybody flat, doesn't mean ANOTHER demon army isn't coming right behind the first one to jack them and take their prize...
...and if all else fails, the fact that they can't beat demons on their own is why the gods accidentally created devils. Asmodeus is perfectly happy with the current situation where vast numbers of souls are corrupted from their normal paths to upper plains or the abyss and end up in the nine hells instead. Having the prime plane fall to the abyss is something he cannot allow any more than the gods can. Remember devils and demons both come from mortal souls (except for the infinite supply of additional demons coming from somewhere outside thru the outer layers of the abyss, which is why the current demon armies always need more troops to fend them off).
... and he returns with seven other demons more wicked than himself. And the last state of the man is worse than the first.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt