Wondering who’s tried grappling in 2024’s new rules? How consistently do you land your grapples now?
Reference: Instead of a contested Athletics check, it’s now a STR or DEX save against your DC: 8 + STR mod + proficiency bonus. (Monks can use DEX mod).
Firstly DC: 8 + STR mod + proficiency bonus. DEX use Monk Dexterous Attacks.In addition, when you use the Grapple or Shove option of your Unarmed Strike, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to determine the save DC.
As for the question, the higher the level, the worse it works.
Firstly DC: 8 + STR mod + proficiency bonus. DEX use Monk Dexterous Attacks.In addition, when you use the Grapple or Shove option of your Unarmed Strike, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to determine the save DC.
As for the question, the higher the level, the worse it works.
Updated the STR/DEX part, thx.
Yeah I was wondering about effectiveness tapering off over time. Cuz you’re like to max out your main stat early, so the only increase to save DC would be proficiency bonus, which is pretty gradual and paces with save proficiencies of enemies.
As someone playing a Warrior of the Elements Monk, primarily intending to use the playstyle in the Preview Article, i do tend to attempt to Grapple, but only as part of the Punch-and-Grab feature of the Grappler Feat.
It's most often successful when the target auto-fails, which happens in one of the following two situations:
A successful Stunning Strike has Stunned the foe, resulting in it automatically failing Strength and Dex Saves. This engages a nasty death spiral since I'll usually only attempt Stunning Strike if I hit on the first attack; Once Stunned and Grappled, all attacks against it are at Advantage and I'll typically burn the Focus Point to do a full Flurry of Blows, and for a target that doesn't have a ranged attack, they're stuck trying to break the Grapple, if I haven't dragged them off somewhere dangerous. In actual party combat, most of the foes I've been able to do that to have not survived to the second round.
When the target voluntarily fails the Saving throw. This has only really come up once, when a friendly character had been grappled by a foe and was trying to leave the battlefield with her, so I grappled her back, and pulled her out of his reach, ending his grapple. (This resulted in an discussion, and some tentative new rulings about counter-grappling)
I've also used it to thin out foes that were focusing fire on friendlies, and once, used it to pull a foe into a cloud of Daggers, and to get characters who have hit 0 HP out of the combat situation.
If i was in a combat where I felt I could spare my Reaction on an Opportunity Attack on a foe that didn't decide to Disengage, I'd probably use the Grapple option, but as someone who's fighting normally with a 15 ft reach, that has only happened once, and the creature in question was Huge and ungrapplable by me.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
As someone playing a Warrior of the Elements Monk, primarily intending to use the playstyle in the Preview Article, i do tend to attempt to Grapple, but only as part of the Punch-and-Grab feature of the Grappler Feat.
It's most often successful when the target auto-fails, which happens in one of the following two situations:
A successful Stunning Strike has Stunned the foe, resulting in it automatically failing Strength and Dex Saves. This engages a nasty death spiral since I'll usually only attempt Stunning Strike if I hit on the first attack; Once Stunned and Grappled, all attacks against it are at Advantage and I'll typically burn the Focus Point to do a full Flurry of Blows, and for a target that doesn't have a ranged attack, they're stuck trying to break the Grapple, if I haven't dragged them off somewhere dangerous. In actual party combat, most of the foes I've been able to do that to have not survived to the second round.
When the target voluntarily fails the Saving throw. This has only really come up once, when a friendly character had been grappled by a foe and was trying to leave the battlefield with her, so I grappled her back, and pulled her out of his reach, ending his grapple. (This resulted in an discussion, and some tentative new rulings about counter-grappling)
I've also used it to thin out foes that were focusing fire on friendlies, and once, used it to pull a foe into a cloud of Daggers, and to get characters who have hit 0 HP out of the combat situation.
If i was in a combat where I felt I could spare my Reaction on an Opportunity Attack on a foe that didn't decide to Disengage, I'd probably use the Grapple option, but as someone who's fighting normally with a 15 ft reach, that has only happened once, and the creature in question was Huge and ungrapplable by me.
Interesting combo. Curious: how much success have you had attempting grapples without stunning enemies? I had kind of hoped to use grappling as a resource-less chance to get Advantage.
Once something is stunned anyways, it's often almost wraps for it. Though if it survived the stun, yeah keeping it grappled would preserve Advantage for you and protect others.
Grapple is a poor source of advantage, many enemies are too big to grapple, front-line enemies have high STR-saves so will succeed against it, many others are immune to grapple b/c they aren't fully solid.
That's the challenge, yes. Even worse, enemies can choose DEX or STR save to be the grapple I think. That said, how do other resource-free sources of Advantage stack up?
Grappling does more than give Advantage (with Grappler feat), like imposing disadvantage on their attacks vs. others, being able to move them, etc. Grapple attack can be used for free once each turn.
Resource Free sources of Advantage in order of IMO best to worst:
1) Class features : Steady Aim (Rogue), Reckless Attack (Barbarian), Umbral Sight (Gloomstalker Ranger - this one is situational) - these are by far the most reliable but require the appropriate class.
2) Weapon Masteries : Vex (most likely to succeed & applicable to all enemies), Topple (can grant Adv to multiple members of the party but much less reliable)
3) Grappling : requires a feat for 1 free per turn, otherwise reduces DPR, only applicable to certain enemies depending on size / type, requires a free hand so not compatible with two-weapon fighting or two-handed weapons. Gives some Battlefield control in addition to advantage. Might last more than 1 round.
4) Shield Master Shove : requires a BA and doesn't do any damage, requires using a shield & a feat, but the feat also gives some other nice benefits as well as +2 AC from the shield itself, has same limitations as Grapple and only lasts for 1 round usually but similar to Topple can grant Adv to multiple attackers.
5) Flanking : excellent but requires a DM that allows it as it isn't a base rule in 2024. If permitted this is #1 source of Adv.
6) Position Advantage : again requires a DM that allows it, and mostly applicable to ranged attacks, requires appropriate terrain & some set-up.
7) Equipment / Magic Items : there's a few ways to e.g. set traps, or certain magic items that can give advantage but they tend to be difficult to set up / difficult to acquire.
General conclusion:
Grappling is decent for a monk, but all other martials have better choices. For Gish-builds Shield Master is probably your best bed since usually you're using a shield anyway.
Resource Free sources of Advantage in order of IMO best to worst:
1) Class features : Steady Aim (Rogue), Reckless Attack (Barbarian), Umbral Sight (Gloomstalker Ranger - this one is situational) - these are by far the most reliable but require the appropriate class.
2) Weapon Masteries : Vex (most likely to succeed & applicable to all enemies), Topple (can grant Adv to multiple members of the party but much less reliable)
3) Grappling : requires a feat for 1 free per turn, otherwise reduces DPR, only applicable to certain enemies depending on size / type, requires a free hand so not compatible with two-weapon fighting or two-handed weapons. Gives some Battlefield control in addition to advantage. Might last more than 1 round.
4) Shield Master Shove : requires a BA and doesn't do any damage, requires using a shield & a feat, but the feat also gives some other nice benefits as well as +2 AC from the shield itself, has same limitations as Grapple and only lasts for 1 round usually but similar to Topple can grant Adv to multiple attackers.
5) Flanking : excellent but requires a DM that allows it as it isn't a base rule in 2024. If permitted this is #1 source of Adv.
6) Position Advantage : again requires a DM that allows it, and mostly applicable to ranged attacks, requires appropriate terrain & some set-up.
7) Equipment / Magic Items : there's a few ways to e.g. set traps, or certain magic items that can give advantage but they tend to be difficult to set up / difficult to acquire.
General conclusion:
Grappling is decent for a monk, but all other martials have better choices. For Gish-builds Shield Master is probably your best bed since usually you're using a shield anyway.
Great breakdown, thank you. I happen to be playing a Monk right now, and so will be trying out grappling.
For Advantage, the best ways, I agree, are class-based, but so they're not an option, neither is Shield Master, which looks much-improved now. No special battlefield rules, so that's out. And don't think I have anyone toppling or casting Fairie Fire or anything, though only a few sessions in yet.
Not relying on that to hit stuff. We do have a couple sources of Bless. But if I want Advantage on a Monk, this is a main option available that seems to go with the grain of unarmed combat. My sublcass Warrior of Mercy can also auto-poison at level 6, which impairs enemies' ability to get out of the grapple.
Interesting combo. Curious: how much success have you had attempting grapples without stunning enemies? I had kind of hoped to use grappling as a resource-less chance to get Advantage.
Once something is stunned anyways, it's often almost wraps for it. Though if it survived the stun, yeah keeping it grappled would preserve Advantage for you and protect others.
A bit less often than I was expecting. The DM is trending towards fewer individual enemies, and to keep up the challenge, they're tending to be stronger, so yeah, they're generally pretty strong or dexterous, or both, and I'm even using a homebrew Magic Item that increases my Grapple DC by 1. (DEX18, normal DC 15, with magic bonus to 16)
I think the rule of thumb is, if you're using your primary attribute to set Save DC, and hitting 20 at 8th level you should be expecting about a 50% chance of foes failing their Saving Throws, vs making about 65% of hits on attack rolls?
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Wondering who’s tried grappling in 2024’s new rules? How consistently do you land your grapples now?
Reference: Instead of a contested Athletics check, it’s now a STR or DEX save against your DC: 8 + STR mod + proficiency bonus. (Monks can use DEX mod).
As for the question, the higher the level, the worse it works.Updated the STR/DEX part, thx.
Yeah I was wondering about effectiveness tapering off over time. Cuz you’re like to max out your main stat early, so the only increase to save DC would be proficiency bonus, which is pretty gradual and paces with save proficiencies of enemies.
As someone playing a Warrior of the Elements Monk, primarily intending to use the playstyle in the Preview Article, i do tend to attempt to Grapple, but only as part of the Punch-and-Grab feature of the Grappler Feat.
It's most often successful when the target auto-fails, which happens in one of the following two situations:
I've also used it to thin out foes that were focusing fire on friendlies, and once, used it to pull a foe into a cloud of Daggers, and to get characters who have hit 0 HP out of the combat situation.
If i was in a combat where I felt I could spare my Reaction on an Opportunity Attack on a foe that didn't decide to Disengage, I'd probably use the Grapple option, but as someone who's fighting normally with a 15 ft reach, that has only happened once, and the creature in question was Huge and ungrapplable by me.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Interesting combo. Curious: how much success have you had attempting grapples without stunning enemies? I had kind of hoped to use grappling as a resource-less chance to get Advantage.
Once something is stunned anyways, it's often almost wraps for it. Though if it survived the stun, yeah keeping it grappled would preserve Advantage for you and protect others.
Grapple is a poor source of advantage, many enemies are too big to grapple, front-line enemies have high STR-saves so will succeed against it, many others are immune to grapple b/c they aren't fully solid.
That's the challenge, yes. Even worse, enemies can choose DEX or STR save to be the grapple I think. That said, how do other resource-free sources of Advantage stack up?
Grappling does more than give Advantage (with Grappler feat), like imposing disadvantage on their attacks vs. others, being able to move them, etc. Grapple attack can be used for free once each turn.
Resource Free sources of Advantage in order of IMO best to worst:
1) Class features : Steady Aim (Rogue), Reckless Attack (Barbarian), Umbral Sight (Gloomstalker Ranger - this one is situational) - these are by far the most reliable but require the appropriate class.
2) Weapon Masteries : Vex (most likely to succeed & applicable to all enemies), Topple (can grant Adv to multiple members of the party but much less reliable)
3) Grappling : requires a feat for 1 free per turn, otherwise reduces DPR, only applicable to certain enemies depending on size / type, requires a free hand so not compatible with two-weapon fighting or two-handed weapons. Gives some Battlefield control in addition to advantage. Might last more than 1 round.
4) Shield Master Shove : requires a BA and doesn't do any damage, requires using a shield & a feat, but the feat also gives some other nice benefits as well as +2 AC from the shield itself, has same limitations as Grapple and only lasts for 1 round usually but similar to Topple can grant Adv to multiple attackers.
5) Flanking : excellent but requires a DM that allows it as it isn't a base rule in 2024. If permitted this is #1 source of Adv.
6) Position Advantage : again requires a DM that allows it, and mostly applicable to ranged attacks, requires appropriate terrain & some set-up.
7) Equipment / Magic Items : there's a few ways to e.g. set traps, or certain magic items that can give advantage but they tend to be difficult to set up / difficult to acquire.
General conclusion:
Grappling is decent for a monk, but all other martials have better choices. For Gish-builds Shield Master is probably your best bed since usually you're using a shield anyway.
Great breakdown, thank you. I happen to be playing a Monk right now, and so will be trying out grappling.
For Advantage, the best ways, I agree, are class-based, but so they're not an option, neither is Shield Master, which looks much-improved now. No special battlefield rules, so that's out. And don't think I have anyone toppling or casting Fairie Fire or anything, though only a few sessions in yet.
Not relying on that to hit stuff. We do have a couple sources of Bless. But if I want Advantage on a Monk, this is a main option available that seems to go with the grain of unarmed combat. My sublcass Warrior of Mercy can also auto-poison at level 6, which impairs enemies' ability to get out of the grapple.
A bit less often than I was expecting. The DM is trending towards fewer individual enemies, and to keep up the challenge, they're tending to be stronger, so yeah, they're generally pretty strong or dexterous, or both, and I'm even using a homebrew Magic Item that increases my Grapple DC by 1. (DEX18, normal DC 15, with magic bonus to 16)
I think the rule of thumb is, if you're using your primary attribute to set Save DC, and hitting 20 at 8th level you should be expecting about a 50% chance of foes failing their Saving Throws, vs making about 65% of hits on attack rolls?
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage