I am building a pole arm master based paladin/swords bard and I had a thought. if I got the dueling fighting style(from bard) and used a spear/quarterstaff in one hand, would I basically get the effects of two weapon fighting and dueling fighting styles at once? I also have the defense fighting style from paladin, as well as the 7th level oathbreaker feature (for extra cheese).
if I am correct my damage looks something like this (lvl 7 pal/lvl 3 bard assuming 20 str) 2d6 + 1d4 + 36 which is better than a glaive or halberd at 2d10 + 1d4 + 30. plus my armour class would be around 21 compared to 19. for a comparison two weapon fighting (with the feat ) looks like 3d8 + 30 which is the same as the glaive but your armour class is 20 not 19.
correct me if I am wrong, but this looks like a really good build to me, especially when you add in smites.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Dueling specifically says 'When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.'. So this doesn't work, as you are holding another weapon.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
Dueling specifically says 'When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.'. So this doesn't work, as you are holding another weapon.
I am only wielding a spear in one hand. the "twf" is not actually two weapon fighting but the extra attack from the pole arm master feat, which is pretty much the same effect
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
You would need to roll really well on stats to get the +10(+12 with dueling) to damage rolls per attack. Talking two 18's and a race that gives +2 to either strength or charisma.
It is Polearm Master, and you get full benefits from it.
You do get the dueling, because you qualify. (+2 to damage).
The +36 build requires two 20s, which where the overpowerd damage is coming from, nothing else.
Another thing to note, that the cheeseist way to do TWF is to combine the Dual wielding feat with dueling:
Start a round with two 1d8 weapons in you hand, getting the +1 bonus to AC,
Put one away (Free action), make your attacks using Duelling +2 to damage.
Using your second free action (from Dual Wielding) take the weapon out again and get another attack with it. You do not get the +2 dueling damage (as your other hand is not free), but you do get the AC bonus.
Note, this has some flexibility as if you do not need the +1 AC, you can start the round with one weapon out, switch weapons, and get the +2 dueling damages for all attacks. Your choice of whether you want the +1 AC for everyone else's rounds, or the +2 damage to your single bonus action attack.
I am only wielding a spear in one hand. the "twf" is not actually two weapon fighting but the extra attack from the pole arm master feat, which is pretty much the same effect
Repeat after me: "The bonus action attack from the Polearm Master feat is not two-weapon fighting." :-)
They not "pretty much the same"; they are completely different, apart from the use of a bonus action. The Polearm Master bonus action attack lets you add your ability score modifier to damage, and (as you've correctly noted) works fine with the Dueling fighting style, as long as you are wielding the quarterstaff or spear one-handed. It's a good feat.
Neither the Two-Weapon Fighting style nor the Dual Wielder feat apply here.
Note that a somewhat-common houserule is to require the weapon to be used two-handed to take advantage of Polearm Master. Check with your DM.
I'm also not sure I'd assume 20 STR. As a Paladin 7 Bard 3 you will only have one ASI (two if you picked variant human).
The +2 damage from the dueling fighting style as stated only applies if you are wielding a weapon with one hand and are not wielding any other weapons, the Polearm Master feat allows you to make a bonus action attack with the opposite end of the weapon (in this case a spear) using the same attribute as the first attack with said weapon. The question of whether the bonus action attack with the backside of the weapon qualifies for the dueling bonus, it could if said weapon is still being wielded by one hand. Which is up to the DM of the session myself I'd allow it due to rule of cool.
It is Polearm Master, and you get full benefits from it.
You do get the dueling, because you qualify. (+2 to damage).
The +36 build requires two 20s, which where the overpowerd damage is coming from, nothing else.
Another thing to note, that the cheeseist way to do TWF is to combine the Dual wielding feat with dueling:
Start a round with two 1d8 weapons in you hand, getting the +1 bonus to AC,
Put one away (Free action), make your attacks using Duelling +2 to damage.
Using your second free action (from Dual Wielding) take the weapon out again and get another attack with it. You do not get the +2 dueling damage (as your other hand is not free), but you do get the AC bonus.
Note, this has some flexibility as if you do not need the +1 AC, you can start the round with one weapon out, switch weapons, and get the +2 dueling damages for all attacks. Your choice of whether you want the +1 AC for everyone else's rounds, or the +2 damage to your single bonus action attack.
the damage was not the point, it was that it still out damages (if only marginally) a glaive PAM build or a two build. I never stated ( if you actually read the OP ) that It wasn't twf, only that it gave the same benefits AS twf. if it offends you this much, then I will change the name. also the aforementioned build has NO cheese, (except the oathbreaker feature kinda) and you still get less armour class with your build. plus if I really wanted to do a lot of damage I would smite, so can you just calm down? it was mainly to fit the build : a fallen angel (unbeknownst to him) who uses a spear and a shield, who enters combat like a dance, cleaving through rank after rank of enemies.
I am only wielding a spear in one hand. the "twf" is not actually two weapon fighting but the extra attack from the pole arm master feat, which is pretty much the same effect
Repeat after me: "The bonus action attack from the Polearm Master feat is not two-weapon fighting." :-)
They not "pretty much the same"; they are completely different, apart from the use of a bonus action. The Polearm Master bonus action attack lets you add your ability score modifier to damage, and (as you've correctly noted) works fine with the Dueling fighting style, as long as you are wielding the quarterstaff or spear one-handed. It's a good feat.
Neither the Two-Weapon Fighting style nor the Dual Wielder feat apply here.
Note that a somewhat-common houserule is to require the weapon to be used two-handed to take advantage of Polearm Master. Check with your DM.
I'm also not sure I'd assume 20 STR. As a Paladin 7 Bard 3 you will only have one ASI (two if you picked variant human).
The bonus action attack from the Polearm Master feat is not two-weapon fighting. :-)
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
I am only wielding a spear in one hand. the "twf" is not actually two weapon fighting but the extra attack from the pole arm master feat, which is pretty much the same effect
Repeat after me: "The bonus action attack from the Polearm Master feat is not two-weapon fighting." :-)
The bonus action attack from the Polearm Master feat is not two-weapon fighting. :-)
I am only wielding a spear in one hand. the "twf" is not actually two weapon fighting but the extra attack from the pole arm master feat, which is pretty much the same effect
Repeat after me: "The bonus action attack from the Polearm Master feat is not two-weapon fighting." :-)
The bonus action attack from the Polearm Master feat is not two-weapon fighting. :-)
Excellent. Have a cookie. :-)
the cookie tastes of victory
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
As a proud min/maxer, could you please share the math for me on the 2d6+1d4 + THIRTY SIX? Thanks.
I think the OP was a Oathbreaker Paladin 7 Swords Bard 3 with dueling fighting style that somehow got 20 STR and 20 CHA and also had the Polearm Master feat. So you get 2 attacks from a staff or spear dealing 1d6 + 12 (STR mod, CHA mod and +2 from dueling) x2 (Extra Attack). Then you round things off with your Bonus Action attack from Polearm Master doing another 1d4 + 12, resulting in 2d6 + 1d4 + 36.
As a proud min/maxer, could you please share the math for me on the 2d6+1d4 + THIRTY SIX? Thanks.
I think the OP was a Oathbreaker Paladin 7 Swords Bard 3 with dueling fighting style that somehow got 20 STR and 20 CHA and also had the Polearm Master feat. So you get 2 attacks from a staff or spear dealing 1d6 + 12 (STR mod, CHA mod and +2 from dueling) x2 (Extra Attack). Then you round things off with your Bonus Action attack from Polearm Master doing another 1d4 + 12, resulting in 2d6 + 1d4 + 36.
The bard isn't doing a whole lot for him in this math, it'd be easier to pull this together with a single level of Hexblade so you can make it a bit more SAD, then you'd just need the 20 Cha.
Yes Polearm Master and Dueling Fighting Style both can work with a one-handed weapon and shield or other non-weapon object.
It can even be a weapon object so long as it isn't being wielded as one.
What weapon object do you mean? Anything on the weapon table isn't Dueling friendly
You can carry anything in that other hand, you just can't wield whatever that is as a weapon while also getting the bonus. If you're not wielding it, you're fine.
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.
You can be holding/carrying whatever you please. The hand needn't be empty. Just can't be wielding.
I am building a pole arm master based paladin/swords bard and I had a thought. if I got the dueling fighting style(from bard) and used a spear/quarterstaff in one hand, would I basically get the effects of two weapon fighting and dueling fighting styles at once? I also have the defense fighting style from paladin, as well as the 7th level oathbreaker feature (for extra cheese).
if I am correct my damage looks something like this (lvl 7 pal/lvl 3 bard assuming 20 str) 2d6 + 1d4 + 36 which is better than a glaive or halberd at 2d10 + 1d4 + 30. plus my armour class would be around 21 compared to 19. for a comparison two weapon fighting (with the feat ) looks like 3d8 + 30 which is the same as the glaive but your armour class is 20 not 19.
correct me if I am wrong, but this looks like a really good build to me, especially when you add in smites.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
so long as you meet the requirements (dueling means you are only using one weapon)... but what you describe looks like it would work
Dueling specifically says 'When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.'. So this doesn't work, as you are holding another weapon.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
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I am only wielding a spear in one hand. the "twf" is not actually two weapon fighting but the extra attack from the pole arm master feat, which is pretty much the same effect
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
You would need to roll really well on stats to get the +10(+12 with dueling) to damage rolls per attack. Talking two 18's and a race that gives +2 to either strength or charisma.
This is not TWF and you get NO benefit from.
It is Polearm Master, and you get full benefits from it.
You do get the dueling, because you qualify. (+2 to damage).
The +36 build requires two 20s, which where the overpowerd damage is coming from, nothing else.
Another thing to note, that the cheeseist way to do TWF is to combine the Dual wielding feat with dueling:
Start a round with two 1d8 weapons in you hand, getting the +1 bonus to AC,
Put one away (Free action), make your attacks using Duelling +2 to damage.
Using your second free action (from Dual Wielding) take the weapon out again and get another attack with it. You do not get the +2 dueling damage (as your other hand is not free), but you do get the AC bonus.
Note, this has some flexibility as if you do not need the +1 AC, you can start the round with one weapon out, switch weapons, and get the +2 dueling damages for all attacks. Your choice of whether you want the +1 AC for everyone else's rounds, or the +2 damage to your single bonus action attack.
Repeat after me: "The bonus action attack from the Polearm Master feat is not two-weapon fighting." :-)
They not "pretty much the same"; they are completely different, apart from the use of a bonus action. The Polearm Master bonus action attack lets you add your ability score modifier to damage, and (as you've correctly noted) works fine with the Dueling fighting style, as long as you are wielding the quarterstaff or spear one-handed. It's a good feat.
Neither the Two-Weapon Fighting style nor the Dual Wielder feat apply here.
Note that a somewhat-common houserule is to require the weapon to be used two-handed to take advantage of Polearm Master. Check with your DM.
I'm also not sure I'd assume 20 STR. As a Paladin 7 Bard 3 you will only have one ASI (two if you picked variant human).
The +2 damage from the dueling fighting style as stated only applies if you are wielding a weapon with one hand and are not wielding any other weapons, the Polearm Master feat allows you to make a bonus action attack with the opposite end of the weapon (in this case a spear) using the same attribute as the first attack with said weapon. The question of whether the bonus action attack with the backside of the weapon qualifies for the dueling bonus, it could if said weapon is still being wielded by one hand. Which is up to the DM of the session myself I'd allow it due to rule of cool.
the damage was not the point, it was that it still out damages (if only marginally) a glaive PAM build or a two build. I never stated ( if you actually read the OP ) that It wasn't twf, only that it gave the same benefits AS twf. if it offends you this much, then I will change the name. also the aforementioned build has NO cheese, (except the oathbreaker feature kinda) and you still get less armour class with your build. plus if I really wanted to do a lot of damage I would smite, so can you just calm down? it was mainly to fit the build : a fallen angel (unbeknownst to him) who uses a spear and a shield, who enters combat like a dance, cleaving through rank after rank of enemies.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
The bonus action attack from the Polearm Master feat is not two-weapon fighting. :-)
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Excellent. Have a cookie. :-)
the cookie tastes of victory
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
As a proud min/maxer, could you please share the math for me on the 2d6+1d4 + THIRTY SIX? Thanks.
I think the OP was a Oathbreaker Paladin 7 Swords Bard 3 with dueling fighting style that somehow got 20 STR and 20 CHA and also had the Polearm Master feat. So you get 2 attacks from a staff or spear dealing 1d6 + 12 (STR mod, CHA mod and +2 from dueling) x2 (Extra Attack). Then you round things off with your Bonus Action attack from Polearm Master doing another 1d4 + 12, resulting in 2d6 + 1d4 + 36.
Yes Polearm Master and Dueling Fighting Style both can work with a one-handed weapon and shield or other non-weapon object.
It can even be a weapon object so long as it isn't being wielded as one.
I got quotes!
The bard isn't doing a whole lot for him in this math, it'd be easier to pull this together with a single level of Hexblade so you can make it a bit more SAD, then you'd just need the 20 Cha.
I got quotes!
What weapon object do you mean? Anything on the weapon table isn't Dueling friendly
You can carry anything in that other hand, you just can't wield whatever that is as a weapon while also getting the bonus. If you're not wielding it, you're fine.
You can be holding/carrying whatever you please. The hand needn't be empty. Just can't be wielding.
I got quotes!
What rule definition exist for wielding? A character having two weapons in ihands should not gain +2 damage.