Hello! Thank you for coming! It just came from my curiosity that Warlocks are really cool! (As long you understand how to manage the class. Also, I see too many people picking Hexblade. I find that really silly, I mean what's up with that. (It's just a joke, I know exactly why...))
I had this concept for a Changeling who talks their way through a heavily guarded palace as multiple identities and clothing, playing cunning thief. Then when I obtain the mission treasure, I change into someone what I'd like to describe as The Dashing Masquerade Magician! Using magic for their flashy and grand escape! Which was all inspired by the movie, 'Ocean's Eleven'.
So I was browsing through classes like Sorcerer, which lacked the class lore I'm looking for this type of character. And No, I'm not choosing Bard for the umpteenth time. Then when I laid my eyes on Warlock, my eyes widened at the sight of it all! The Invocation system, the infinite spells I could CAST! I could barely contain my excitement!
So now comes in choosing Subclasses and I went with the Genie Patron, which of the Four Elemental Fiends? I have no clue yet...
But what REALLY matters is which Pact.
I'm not picking up Pact of Blade, cuz that's not related to utility. Pact of Chain wouldn't really blend in with my character's personality.
So it's either Pact of Tome or Pact of Talisman.
Both options I could see myself picking, but I would still be indecisive.
Pact of Tome has Cantrips that I can use to cast stuff like Shillelagh, Guidance, and Thorn Whip for example. Which all fits my character's wit and critical thinking. BIG Problem: I got to have the book in my hand to use these things. So, no infiltrating Palaces as a Palace Guard, holding onto a Book shrouded in Black Magic, it would look awfully suspicious! That is a big break for me, I want to enforce my infiltrating role because Warlocks are not Rouges and thus can't sneak for free. (Unless equipped with the Skill Expert) I want to ensure I have all of the options I can have on hand while infiltrating.
Pact of the Talisman automatically grants me an Invocation, plus I can swap that out. From my understanding, this means, every level, I can swap out two Invocations out at a time! On top of that, it's got great support Invocations for the type of Warlock I'd like to be who doesn't really use much else other than Minor Illusion, Hex (At low Levels), and Eldritch Blast the whole fight. Also, BIG Problem: Everyone's been discussing that Talisman is a fairly weak Pact, being limited on what it can do compared to Tome and Chain. Even though that's a vague reason, it's still enough for me to contemplate if Pact of Tome is the choice to go. (Also, please clarify where the Talisman additional d4 to ability checks thing comes from. I've been reading many sources, some say its in the 3rd initial pick-up, some say it's a 5th Invocation, others say 7th Invocation. Please clarify where this is, so I can better weigh my options, cuz I'd like all the ability check points that I can get, which I also was thinking on picking Patron of the Fiend for this same reason.)
That's all my thoughts I've been pondering about, feel free to give your opinion! No worries if you're going to tell me don't do this entirely and just do a Changeling Rouge... Honesty, goes a long way!
BIG Problem: I got to have the book in my hand to use these things. So, no infiltrating Palaces as a Palace Guard, holding onto a Book shrouded in Black Magic, it would look awfully suspicious!
Depending on your patron your tome doesn't need to look evil, it could just look like an ordinary book (or a salacious erotica novel, why not?). It also doesn't need to be visible, you just need to be able to touch it just need to have it on your person, so you could for example keep it in a satchel with enough room for you to reach a hand inside to touch the book when you need to? backpack etc.?
Pact of the Talisman automatically grants me an Invocation
Unless I've missed something major this isn't right; you don't get a free invocation from this pact.
I think the main reason that people think Talisman is weak is that 99.99% of people online build their Warlocks for damage and little else; personally I think it's a fun option but you're probably going to be building around it, i.e- you're looking to get more of the Talisman specific invocations to really get the most of it, so it's got quite an investment cost. But if you want to add a bit of support/Bard like features without multiclassing into Bard then it's a decent option to have. The main issue with Talisman is that you'll have to choose who you give it to carefully, as you want them to get the most out of having it; if you've got a player who's a natural confidant especially for your character they could work well, and think about which of the Talisman invocations you'll take over time; Rebuke of the Talisman is nice for an ally who could use another way to create space if engaged for example.
Even if warlocks didn't get a pact boon they'd still be good IMO, so I wouldn't worry too much about how "powerful" a pact is; I'm very much of the character first mindset. That said I can't really tell you what to pick; you'll know the character better than I can. 😉
If you're still undecided later though, you could also just pick one, give it a try and if you don't like it ask your DM if you can switch?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Agreed. Pact of the Talisman doesn’t give a free Invocation. But it does give you a 1d4 to ability checks that you can use after you fail the check. Since that applies to Deception, Persuasion, and Stealth it will be very useful based on your character conception and style that you’re describing. Unless you get to 12th level and want to take the Invocation that lets you teleport to the person wearing the Talisman you can wear the Talisman yourself or give it to a friend. Or even trick someone into carrying it into someplace that you’re trying to get into.
I think that Pact of the Talisman is a great choice for your character conception.
Oh, I must've used the wrong source to find out I could get a free Invocation of the bat. I got it from a website called, 'GMBinder'. Must've been an UA source.
Anyway, I didn't know you could swap out Pact Boons! So you could pick up Talisman and swap it out for Tome? That's sick! Well, from what I'm reading from the Tasha's Edition. I'll be using that feature as much as possible then!
Like, I could pick up Tome @ Lvl 3 when the party and I are not sneaking around at that time, then switch directly to Talisman @ Lvl 4. (According to Tasha's: I can either switch out a Cantrip, a Pact Boon, or a Mystic Arcanum each ability score improvement, I hope this works if I picked up a Feat.) Finally, stick with Talisman until I decide if I want Tome or keep Talisman.
Thank you guys! You all gave me a lot of feedback!
I do play a changeling warlock of the tome Genie (Marid) right now. I would recomend either tome for the versatility in cantrips and some of the invocations or you might want to rethink pact of the chain, having a invisible familiar that can scout for you or stand guard would be great for stealth missions. While I don't think the talisman is bad, I see it more as a support version of the warlock. Aside from the d4 you can roll I don't see much use for a roleplay/stealthy character.
I love to see more non-Hexblade, non-minmax warlocks here in the forums, I think warlocks are a great fit for stealthy/social characters.
Lastly I'd like to advertise one of my own creations in one of the throwdowns, they are two a changling warlock and maybe you'll find some nice things you like in there, too.
Yes, reconsider chain, an imp or pixie could really help with the mission impossible style role play, with it being invisible you could just say you are “lucky”. With it scouting ahead you could get a look at the best people to imitate and even send it thru a window to gather laundry for costumes. Listen thru it’s ears and get actor feat to better impersonate, have it ‘help’ when you need advantage on deception or persuasion. The imp can shapechange too so it could be a cat or bird or something inconspicuous if needed.
Wow! More things, more suggestions! Thank you all for the kind comments!
First off, @Sutlo 1st: You picked just about the same build I was going for! I was pondering whether to go Earth or Water Elemental Fiend, but I think the Water Fiend would work so much better. Fog Cloud would probably by the best last resort tool out of all the options there. and 2nd: I saw your link and you suggested on using sleep on a target so we can stow them away somewhere and replace them, THAT'S GENIUS! I'm stealing that for myself!
@TheNemesi You know, after looking long and hard at the feats and the 4 mischief monsters to summon, they're not bad at all! I'd also love to have creatures using the Help action to get successes when I have to make ability checks. I'll really consider into putting use into those little guys!
Though I have made headway into my own research for my toolkit. In general, I'm going to focus on spells to get myself around. Like so
1st level Cantrips: Minor Illusions (Used both OoB and Mid-Battle) and Eld. B (Cuz when you're backed up in a corner, you bring out the guns) 1st Spells: Charm Person (For when I'm the Masquerade and I'm cut off by someone, I can charm them and tell his friends 'he ran this way' and keep running. Only for the thief personality however, cuz if I used it as a civilian, I'm in trouble. But if used as someone who's already a criminal, what's the harm!) Hex (Cuz no uses of Bonus Actions yet) For when I get the Invocations on 2nd, I'll pick of 'Mask of Many Faces' (Cuz that's lit for any Changeling) and 'Misty Visions' (To combo with Minor Illusions to make a visually, speaking imposter Masquerade to trick my pursuers)
I do have spells and Invocations that I'd do like to try out though: Sleep (Cuz I reeeaaally want to pull of that trick myself!)
Gift of Gab (Just in case I let something slip, talking with the BBEG I'm negotiating with, while in a disguised. I think its pretty neat)
Far Step (Though I won't be able to gain this spell until lvl 9, in my eyes this is the best Misty Step for a Warlock, for they can't be spending Pact Slots all whilly-nilly.)
Actor feat. (***Please let me know how exactly this effects a Changeling. From the description of Shapeshift, I replicate voices. So, what does actor really increase in this regard?***)
Armor of Shadows (Mage Armor: I'd be wearing only clothing, unless I find any armor that is invisible.)
Far Scribe (For when I have Tome, communicating to my Party members or anyone who I managed to bleed their ink from a contract, onto my book. So, I can get their names and play tricks on them.)
War Caster (Maybe this will come in handy as Spell Caster? I'm not sure to be honest.)
I have many ideas and concepts brewing, but the more you guys keep inspiring me, the better this character will become over time! Thanks a ton again, Scrub.
I have a similar Warlock. I went with Archfey, however. For the Element, I'd suggest taking a look at Air Genie. It got some nice illusion spells.
For the Pact, anything but Blade would work well with your character. Tome is an all-star and what I picked. Picking Guidance on the Tome is an alternative to Talisman, but doesn't work as reliable. Talisman is generally good, but I didn't get to play it yet. I don't like the Chain lock so I can't say much to that.
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Hello! Thank you for coming! It just came from my curiosity that Warlocks are really cool! (As long you understand how to manage the class. Also, I see too many people picking Hexblade. I find that really silly, I mean what's up with that. (It's just a joke, I know exactly why...))
I had this concept for a Changeling who talks their way through a heavily guarded palace as multiple identities and clothing, playing cunning thief. Then when I obtain the mission treasure, I change into someone what I'd like to describe as The Dashing Masquerade Magician! Using magic for their flashy and grand escape! Which was all inspired by the movie, 'Ocean's Eleven'.
So I was browsing through classes like Sorcerer, which lacked the class lore I'm looking for this type of character. And No, I'm not choosing Bard for the umpteenth time. Then when I laid my eyes on Warlock, my eyes widened at the sight of it all! The Invocation system, the infinite spells I could CAST! I could barely contain my excitement!
So now comes in choosing Subclasses and I went with the Genie Patron, which of the Four Elemental Fiends? I have no clue yet...
But what REALLY matters is which Pact.
I'm not picking up Pact of Blade, cuz that's not related to utility. Pact of Chain wouldn't really blend in with my character's personality.
So it's either Pact of Tome or Pact of Talisman.
Both options I could see myself picking, but I would still be indecisive.
Pact of Tome has Cantrips that I can use to cast stuff like Shillelagh, Guidance, and Thorn Whip for example. Which all fits my character's wit and critical thinking.
BIG Problem: I got to have the book in my hand to use these things. So, no infiltrating Palaces as a Palace Guard, holding onto a Book shrouded in Black Magic, it would look awfully suspicious! That is a big break for me, I want to enforce my infiltrating role because Warlocks are not Rouges and thus can't sneak for free. (Unless equipped with the Skill Expert) I want to ensure I have all of the options I can have on hand while infiltrating.
Pact of the Talisman automatically grants me an Invocation, plus I can swap that out. From my understanding, this means, every level, I can swap out two Invocations out at a time! On top of that, it's got great support Invocations for the type of Warlock I'd like to be who doesn't really use much else other than Minor Illusion, Hex (At low Levels), and Eldritch Blast the whole fight.
Also, BIG Problem: Everyone's been discussing that Talisman is a fairly weak Pact, being limited on what it can do compared to Tome and Chain. Even though that's a vague reason, it's still enough for me to contemplate if Pact of Tome is the choice to go. (Also, please clarify where the Talisman additional d4 to ability checks thing comes from. I've been reading many sources, some say its in the 3rd initial pick-up, some say it's a 5th Invocation, others say 7th Invocation. Please clarify where this is, so I can better weigh my options, cuz I'd like all the ability check points that I can get, which I also was thinking on picking Patron of the Fiend for this same reason.)
That's all my thoughts I've been pondering about, feel free to give your opinion! No worries if you're going to tell me don't do this entirely and just do a Changeling Rouge...
Honesty, goes a long way!
Be nice, Scrub!
Depending on your patron your tome doesn't need to look evil, it could just look like an ordinary book (or a salacious erotica novel, why not?). It also doesn't need to be visible, you
just need to be able to touch itjust need to have it on your person, so you could for example keep it in a satchelwith enough room for you to reach a hand inside to touch the book when you need to?backpack etc.?Unless I've missed something major this isn't right; you don't get a free invocation from this pact.
I think the main reason that people think Talisman is weak is that 99.99% of people online build their Warlocks for damage and little else; personally I think it's a fun option but you're probably going to be building around it, i.e- you're looking to get more of the Talisman specific invocations to really get the most of it, so it's got quite an investment cost. But if you want to add a bit of support/Bard like features without multiclassing into Bard then it's a decent option to have. The main issue with Talisman is that you'll have to choose who you give it to carefully, as you want them to get the most out of having it; if you've got a player who's a natural confidant especially for your character they could work well, and think about which of the Talisman invocations you'll take over time; Rebuke of the Talisman is nice for an ally who could use another way to create space if engaged for example.
Even if warlocks didn't get a pact boon they'd still be good IMO, so I wouldn't worry too much about how "powerful" a pact is; I'm very much of the character first mindset. That said I can't really tell you what to pick; you'll know the character better than I can. 😉
If you're still undecided later though, you could also just pick one, give it a try and if you don't like it ask your DM if you can switch?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Agreed. Pact of the Talisman doesn’t give a free Invocation. But it does give you a 1d4 to ability checks that you can use after you fail the check. Since that applies to Deception, Persuasion, and Stealth it will be very useful based on your character conception and style that you’re describing. Unless you get to 12th level and want to take the Invocation that lets you teleport to the person wearing the Talisman you can wear the Talisman yourself or give it to a friend. Or even trick someone into carrying it into someplace that you’re trying to get into.
I think that Pact of the Talisman is a great choice for your character conception.
Professional computer geek
Oh, I must've used the wrong source to find out I could get a free Invocation of the bat. I got it from a website called, 'GMBinder'. Must've been an UA source.
Anyway, I didn't know you could swap out Pact Boons! So you could pick up Talisman and swap it out for Tome? That's sick! Well, from what I'm reading from the Tasha's Edition. I'll be using that feature as much as possible then!
Like, I could pick up Tome @ Lvl 3 when the party and I are not sneaking around at that time, then switch directly to Talisman @ Lvl 4. (According to Tasha's: I can either switch out a Cantrip, a Pact Boon, or a Mystic Arcanum each ability score improvement, I hope this works if I picked up a Feat.) Finally, stick with Talisman until I decide if I want Tome or keep Talisman.
Thank you guys! You all gave me a lot of feedback!
I do play a changeling warlock of the tome Genie (Marid) right now. I would recomend either tome for the versatility in cantrips and some of the invocations or you might want to rethink pact of the chain, having a invisible familiar that can scout for you or stand guard would be great for stealth missions. While I don't think the talisman is bad, I see it more as a support version of the warlock. Aside from the d4 you can roll I don't see much use for a roleplay/stealthy character.
I love to see more non-Hexblade, non-minmax warlocks here in the forums, I think warlocks are a great fit for stealthy/social characters.
Lastly I'd like to advertise one of my own creations in one of the throwdowns, they are two a changling warlock and maybe you'll find some nice things you like in there, too.
Click me, I'm a link!
Yes, reconsider chain, an imp or pixie could really help with the mission impossible style role play, with it being invisible you could just say you are “lucky”. With it scouting ahead you could get a look at the best people to imitate and even send it thru a window to gather laundry for costumes. Listen thru it’s ears and get actor feat to better impersonate, have it ‘help’ when you need advantage on deception or persuasion. The imp can shapechange too so it could be a cat or bird or something inconspicuous if needed.
Wow! More things, more suggestions! Thank you all for the kind comments!
First off, @Sutlo
1st: You picked just about the same build I was going for! I was pondering whether to go Earth or Water Elemental Fiend, but I think the Water Fiend would work so much better. Fog Cloud would probably by the best last resort tool out of all the options there.
and 2nd: I saw your link and you suggested on using sleep on a target so we can stow them away somewhere and replace them, THAT'S GENIUS! I'm stealing that for myself!
@TheNemesi
You know, after looking long and hard at the feats and the 4 mischief monsters to summon, they're not bad at all! I'd also love to have creatures using the Help action to get successes when I have to make ability checks. I'll really consider into putting use into those little guys!
Though I have made headway into my own research for my toolkit. In general, I'm going to focus on spells to get myself around. Like so
1st level
Cantrips: Minor Illusions (Used both OoB and Mid-Battle) and Eld. B (Cuz when you're backed up in a corner, you bring out the guns)
1st Spells: Charm Person (For when I'm the Masquerade and I'm cut off by someone, I can charm them and tell his friends 'he ran this way' and keep running. Only for the thief personality however, cuz if I used it as a civilian, I'm in trouble. But if used as someone who's already a criminal, what's the harm!)
Hex (Cuz no uses of Bonus Actions yet)
For when I get the Invocations on 2nd, I'll pick of 'Mask of Many Faces' (Cuz that's lit for any Changeling) and 'Misty Visions' (To combo with Minor Illusions to make a visually, speaking imposter Masquerade to trick my pursuers)
I do have spells and Invocations that I'd do like to try out though:
Sleep (Cuz I reeeaaally want to pull of that trick myself!)
Gift of Gab (Just in case I let something slip, talking with the BBEG I'm negotiating with, while in a disguised. I think its pretty neat)
Far Step (Though I won't be able to gain this spell until lvl 9, in my eyes this is the best Misty Step for a Warlock, for they can't be spending Pact Slots all whilly-nilly.)
Actor feat. (***Please let me know how exactly this effects a Changeling. From the description of Shapeshift, I replicate voices. So, what does actor really increase in this regard?***)
Armor of Shadows (Mage Armor: I'd be wearing only clothing, unless I find any armor that is invisible.)
Far Scribe (For when I have Tome, communicating to my Party members or anyone who I managed to bleed their ink from a contract, onto my book. So, I can get their names and play tricks on them.)
War Caster (Maybe this will come in handy as Spell Caster? I'm not sure to be honest.)
I have many ideas and concepts brewing, but the more you guys keep inspiring me, the better this character will become over time!
Thanks a ton again, Scrub.
I have a similar Warlock. I went with Archfey, however. For the Element, I'd suggest taking a look at Air Genie. It got some nice illusion spells.
For the Pact, anything but Blade would work well with your character. Tome is an all-star and what I picked. Picking Guidance on the Tome is an alternative to Talisman, but doesn't work as reliable. Talisman is generally good, but I didn't get to play it yet. I don't like the Chain lock so I can't say much to that.