Not to cast but i understand why they would not bonus spell known , all other classes with get them as bonus spell known that have a expanded spell list, it would add flavor the patron, and the number of spells a warlock can cast remands the same i don't see how it unbalance the class any
I love playing warlocks, and giving warlocks those spells as known spells instead of as options that they can learn would definitely over power warlocks. One of the limitations of warlocks is how few spells they know and you're suggesting doubling the number of spells that a warlock would know until they hit 10th level. That's a huge power bump! Even the Celestial Pact warlock's 2 bonus cantrips is a large power bump until higher levels, adding 2 more spells known at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level would definitely over power a warlock compared to other classes.
I love playing warlocks, and giving warlocks those spells as known spells instead of as options that they can learn would definitely over power warlocks. One of the limitations of warlocks is how few spells they know and you're suggesting doubling the number of spells that a warlock would know until they hit 10th level. That's a huge power bump! Even the Celestial Pact warlock's 2 bonus cantrips is a large power bump until higher levels, adding 2 more spells known at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level would definitely over power a warlock compared to other classes.
i may be missing something , but how will knowing more spell overpower them with being able to cast more spells?
At 1st level a wizard with an intelligence of 16 can prepare 4 spells and a warlock has 2 spells known. You’re proposing giving warlocks the same number of spells known at 1st level that a wizard can prepare. At 5th level a wizard with an intelligence of 18 can prepare 9 spells and a warlock has 6 known spells. You’re proposing giving warlocks more spells known than a wizard can prepare at 5th level! And as both classes increase in level your proposal makes warlocks much more flexible than wizards are which unbalances both classes.
I’ve played both classes and I love both classes. But your proposal would make me never play a wizard again because it would make warlocks better arcane spell casters than wizards are.
Now let's not pretend that a warlock can still cast a huge amount of spells in every battle. They still do not have access to the sheer quantity of spells that wizards can get. They do not have the same kind of access to high level spells that a wizard has. Better arcane caster? Not even close. A few extra known spells is irrelevant.
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Yeah warlocks are meant to play like a combination of fighter and wizard. They know less spells than pretty much every other caster because they have Eldritch blast damage to compensate. If they know too many spells they become more flexible and honestly warlocks are not weak by any means
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At 1st level a wizard with an intelligence of 16 can prepare 4 spells and a warlock has 2 spells known. You’re proposing giving warlocks the same number of spells known at 1st level that a wizard can prepare. At 5th level a wizard with an intelligence of 18 can prepare 9 spells and a warlock has 6 known spells. You’re proposing giving warlocks more spells known than a wizard can prepare at 5th level! And as both classes increase in level your proposal makes warlocks much more flexible than wizards are which unbalances both classes.
I’ve played both classes and I love both classes. But your proposal would make me never play a wizard again because it would make warlocks better arcane spell casters than wizards are.
a wizard has no max to it's spell known and you are taking into account the key point here the number of spell that can be cast. also the power of the wizard is in it's strategic flexibility.
Wizards do have a limit on how many spells they can prepare. They can prepare their level plus their intelligence modifier spells. Yes they can know more spells but they are limited to only preparing a very limited number of spells. The same way every spell casting class is limited to how many spells they can have prepared (Cleric, Druid, and Wizard) or known (Arcane Trickster, Bard, Eldritch Knight, Sorcerer, Warlock, and a couple of other sub classes) at a time. Those limits are part of the balance between the classes.
You're acting like you’re trying to convince your DM to let you make your warlock over powered compared to the other spell casting classes by having more known spells than any other class can have prepared at a time. Sorry, that makes a warlock incredibly over powered.
I definitely agree that letting warlocks get free known spells would unbalance things. The game designers know what their doing (usually) and warlocks are not meant to primarily casting leveled spells. Their weird spell slot system is part of it, but having access to more spells known makes you much more versatile, and versatility is powerful in a game where you have little idea what kind of challenge you’ll be facing while choosing your abilities. Look at wizards vs sorcerers, pretty much the only important thing that the base wizard class gets over sorcerer (besides arcane recovery, which is kind of offset by the pool of sorcery points that can be traded for extra spell slots) is access to a larger spell list and getting to prepare more spells than the sorcerer gets to know, while sorcerers get to do crap like twinning and quickening spells. Despite getting way better action economy and more spell damage, lot of people think that sorcerer is weak compared to wizard, because of versatility. I kind of rambled but the point is that warlocks don’t need a power buff like that.
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Rumors of my awesomeness have been greatly unexaggerated.
"It is our choices ... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." — Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.
About 50% of my brain power is devoted to thinking up eloquent speeches that I’ll probably never use.
There would also be no point in eldritch invocations. They're all about extra spells and little bonuses.
Invocactions gives you acces to Spells that your class would NOT have at all...(and half of it are shit, or use a spell slot and can be cast only once per LR)
The extended spell list are spells you have acces, but need to swap.
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
This thread touches on the main issue but does not come to the logical conclusion. The primary issue is why do we think it is balanced that Clerics and Druids have more spells available to them at any given time than Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock. That's even despite the fact that both Cleric and Druid also typically get abilities that provide substantial martial combat benefits on top of the larger available to cast at a moment list than the people who literally devote themselves entirely to the arcane. Hell even Rangers get bonus spells known.
Too many on this thread are saying "Warlocks can't get bonus known spells, otherwise they will be stronger than Wizard/Sorcerer" but that's looking at it the wrong way. Warlock, Wizard and Sorcerer SHOULD ALL be getting bonus spells known based on subclass.
I’ve played a cleric, I know from experience and just in general that 1. The bonus spells aren’t a big deal because clerics don’t have a good spell list. I would end preparing spells like remove curse that I never even used. On the other hand, wizard have a lot more options that could make a big impact if they could prepare of them, and 2. It’s not like “yay, I get to pick ten extra spells, some of them from other spell lists!” A war cleric can make good use of getting spiritual weapon without preparing it, but divine favor? How many clerics are going to spend concentration to get one or two d4’s per turn of extra melee damage, especially when they get spirit guardians as concentration, and it does 3d8 a turn to several creatures.
Druids only get extra spells from the circle of the land, which is the more spell based circle, coincidently considered a subclass. As for rangers, the base archetypes don’t get the extra spells, that’s something the Xanathar’s ones get because they thought the ranger needed a buff. Paladins do get oath spells, but let’s be honest, how many Paladins actually cast spells that often when you have divine smite? If a wizard or sorcerer got free spells prepared/known, it wouldn’t be gamebreaking, but the wizard is already powerful enough that they don’t a buff, and as for sorcerer, there actually are ua subclasses with that, but personally I think that that would be an unnecessary buff.
I see people complaining because “it’s not fair that some classes have a feature that works differently” but the classes shouldn’t be mechanically the exact same, and they are balanced in other ways.
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Rumors of my awesomeness have been greatly unexaggerated.
"It is our choices ... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." — Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.
About 50% of my brain power is devoted to thinking up eloquent speeches that I’ll probably never use.
"How many clerics are going to spend concentration to get one or two d4’s per turn of extra melee damage"
Because one is a 1st level spell and 1 is a 3rd level spell and multi-classing is a thing. Take one level of War Cleric on a level 5 TW Fighter and their average damage with Divine Favor has jumped 7.5 hp per round. Think about that on a Monk with Flurry of Blows as well. Those are just examples from 1 subclass. It's not whether or not it is OP on that one subclass cause they might have a better concentration spell. You have to think about the impact across the suite of balance.
All subclasses since the PHB have been more powerful for the most part than the base PHB subclasses. That's a silly argument.
Paladins never casting the spells is more an indictment of how out of balance Divine Smite is than a valid critique of spells known.
Druids as you rightfully point out are getting it because they are focusing all their talents and energies to wielding spells. Oh wait kinda like Warlocks, Sorcerers and Wizards do all the time. Yes Hexblade is a thing and Bladesinging is a thing. Maybe it make sense for THOSE subclasses not to have bonus spells known. But how many melee sorcerers do you know?
At the end of the day stating the extra spells known are ineffective or never used is not a valid argument for WHY the classes dedicated to magic don't have this mechanic.
If you want to cast more spells, play something besides a Warlock. The entire Warlock thing is other magical stuff instead of spell slots.
You get so many other magical stuff, THAT is why you do not get more slots. Get the invocations that let you do something 1/day, or better yet, unlimited times.
If you want to cast more spells, play something besides a Warlock. The entire Warlock thing is other magical stuff instead of spell slots.
You get so many other magical stuff, THAT is why you do not get more slots. Get the invocations that let you do something 1/day, or better yet, unlimited times.
Especially because you can buy a pearl of power.
Maybe actually read the thread. Literally no one has mentioned the number of spell slots. The discussion is why it make sense that the 3 primary caster classes should have more spells known. Literally nothing to do with anything you said.....
I don’t think anyone here who is arguing for warlocks knowing their pact spells has come up with a reason other than “other classes get it, why shouldn’t warlocks.” The whole point of having different classes is so that they have different feature that make characters distinct. Furthermore, I don’t think that clerics or land druids are OP op for having free spells (Paladins are kinda OP but Oath spells isn’t why) or that warlocks and wizards are underpowered because they don’t have that. There’s really no point for anything to change.
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Rumors of my awesomeness have been greatly unexaggerated.
"It is our choices ... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." — Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.
About 50% of my brain power is devoted to thinking up eloquent speeches that I’ll probably never use.
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Not to cast but i understand why they would not bonus spell known , all other classes with get them as bonus spell known that have a expanded spell list, it would add flavor the patron, and the number of spells a warlock can cast remands the same i don't see how it unbalance the class any
I love playing warlocks, and giving warlocks those spells as known spells instead of as options that they can learn would definitely over power warlocks. One of the limitations of warlocks is how few spells they know and you're suggesting doubling the number of spells that a warlock would know until they hit 10th level. That's a huge power bump! Even the Celestial Pact warlock's 2 bonus cantrips is a large power bump until higher levels, adding 2 more spells known at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level would definitely over power a warlock compared to other classes.
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i may be missing something , but how will knowing more spell overpower them with being able to cast more spells?
As they can just zoom through spell slots then have a quick nap. Then do it again.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
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Pact of the Tome/Book of Ancient secrets gives you extra ritual spells
Cedo nulli, Calcanda semel via leti.
Parvi sed magni.
At 1st level a wizard with an intelligence of 16 can prepare 4 spells and a warlock has 2 spells known. You’re proposing giving warlocks the same number of spells known at 1st level that a wizard can prepare. At 5th level a wizard with an intelligence of 18 can prepare 9 spells and a warlock has 6 known spells. You’re proposing giving warlocks more spells known than a wizard can prepare at 5th level! And as both classes increase in level your proposal makes warlocks much more flexible than wizards are which unbalances both classes.
I’ve played both classes and I love both classes. But your proposal would make me never play a wizard again because it would make warlocks better arcane spell casters than wizards are.
Professional computer geek
Now let's not pretend that a warlock can still cast a huge amount of spells in every battle. They still do not have access to the sheer quantity of spells that wizards can get. They do not have the same kind of access to high level spells that a wizard has. Better arcane caster? Not even close. A few extra known spells is irrelevant.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
There would also be no point in eldritch invocations. They're all about extra spells and little bonuses.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I'll worldbuild for your DnD games!
Just a D&D enjoyer, check out my fiverr page if you need any worldbuilding done for ya!
Yeah warlocks are meant to play like a combination of fighter and wizard. They know less spells than pretty much every other caster because they have Eldritch blast damage to compensate. If they know too many spells they become more flexible and honestly warlocks are not weak by any means
Rumors of my awesomeness have been greatly unexaggerated.
"It is our choices ... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." — Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.
About 50% of my brain power is devoted to thinking up eloquent speeches that I’ll probably never use.
A wizard will quickly get more spell and be able to cast more
a wizard has no max to it's spell known and you are taking into account the key point here the number of spell that can be cast. also the power of the wizard is in it's strategic flexibility.
Wizards do have a limit on how many spells they can prepare. They can prepare their level plus their intelligence modifier spells. Yes they can know more spells but they are limited to only preparing a very limited number of spells. The same way every spell casting class is limited to how many spells they can have prepared (Cleric, Druid, and Wizard) or known (Arcane Trickster, Bard, Eldritch Knight, Sorcerer, Warlock, and a couple of other sub classes) at a time. Those limits are part of the balance between the classes.
You're acting like you’re trying to convince your DM to let you make your warlock over powered compared to the other spell casting classes by having more known spells than any other class can have prepared at a time. Sorry, that makes a warlock incredibly over powered.
Professional computer geek
I definitely agree that letting warlocks get free known spells would unbalance things. The game designers know what their doing (usually) and warlocks are not meant to primarily casting leveled spells. Their weird spell slot system is part of it, but having access to more spells known makes you much more versatile, and versatility is powerful in a game where you have little idea what kind of challenge you’ll be facing while choosing your abilities. Look at wizards vs sorcerers, pretty much the only important thing that the base wizard class gets over sorcerer (besides arcane recovery, which is kind of offset by the pool of sorcery points that can be traded for extra spell slots) is access to a larger spell list and getting to prepare more spells than the sorcerer gets to know, while sorcerers get to do crap like twinning and quickening spells. Despite getting way better action economy and more spell damage, lot of people think that sorcerer is weak compared to wizard, because of versatility. I kind of rambled but the point is that warlocks don’t need a power buff like that.
Rumors of my awesomeness have been greatly unexaggerated.
"It is our choices ... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." — Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.
About 50% of my brain power is devoted to thinking up eloquent speeches that I’ll probably never use.
While nothing brought up has led me to think it would overpowered, however my original reason for thinking that warlock should Expanded Spell list automatically known, was that all other classes with a expanded spell list got them for free, was incorrect . After this thread and two on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/gkygrw/why_is_a_warlocks_expanded_spells_not_bouns_spells/ )(https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/gkyg4i/why_is_a_warlocks_expanded_spells_not_bouns_spells/) i think it would be more appropriate to an added as part of the pact of the tome or invocation with a prerequisite of pact of the tome.
Invocactions gives you acces to Spells that your class would NOT have at all...(and half of it are shit, or use a spell slot and can be cast only once per LR)
The extended spell list are spells you have acces, but need to swap.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
This thread touches on the main issue but does not come to the logical conclusion. The primary issue is why do we think it is balanced that Clerics and Druids have more spells available to them at any given time than Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock. That's even despite the fact that both Cleric and Druid also typically get abilities that provide substantial martial combat benefits on top of the larger available to cast at a moment list than the people who literally devote themselves entirely to the arcane. Hell even Rangers get bonus spells known.
Too many on this thread are saying "Warlocks can't get bonus known spells, otherwise they will be stronger than Wizard/Sorcerer" but that's looking at it the wrong way. Warlock, Wizard and Sorcerer SHOULD ALL be getting bonus spells known based on subclass.
I’ve played a cleric, I know from experience and just in general that 1. The bonus spells aren’t a big deal because clerics don’t have a good spell list. I would end preparing spells like remove curse that I never even used. On the other hand, wizard have a lot more options that could make a big impact if they could prepare of them, and 2. It’s not like “yay, I get to pick ten extra spells, some of them from other spell lists!” A war cleric can make good use of getting spiritual weapon without preparing it, but divine favor? How many clerics are going to spend concentration to get one or two d4’s per turn of extra melee damage, especially when they get spirit guardians as concentration, and it does 3d8 a turn to several creatures.
Druids only get extra spells from the circle of the land, which is the more spell based circle, coincidently considered a subclass. As for rangers, the base archetypes don’t get the extra spells, that’s something the Xanathar’s ones get because they thought the ranger needed a buff. Paladins do get oath spells, but let’s be honest, how many Paladins actually cast spells that often when you have divine smite? If a wizard or sorcerer got free spells prepared/known, it wouldn’t be gamebreaking, but the wizard is already powerful enough that they don’t a buff, and as for sorcerer, there actually are ua subclasses with that, but personally I think that that would be an unnecessary buff.
I see people complaining because “it’s not fair that some classes have a feature that works differently” but the classes shouldn’t be mechanically the exact same, and they are balanced in other ways.
Rumors of my awesomeness have been greatly unexaggerated.
"It is our choices ... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." — Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.
About 50% of my brain power is devoted to thinking up eloquent speeches that I’ll probably never use.
"How many clerics are going to spend concentration to get one or two d4’s per turn of extra melee damage"
Because one is a 1st level spell and 1 is a 3rd level spell and multi-classing is a thing. Take one level of War Cleric on a level 5 TW Fighter and their average damage with Divine Favor has jumped 7.5 hp per round. Think about that on a Monk with Flurry of Blows as well. Those are just examples from 1 subclass. It's not whether or not it is OP on that one subclass cause they might have a better concentration spell. You have to think about the impact across the suite of balance.
All subclasses since the PHB have been more powerful for the most part than the base PHB subclasses. That's a silly argument.
Paladins never casting the spells is more an indictment of how out of balance Divine Smite is than a valid critique of spells known.
Druids as you rightfully point out are getting it because they are focusing all their talents and energies to wielding spells. Oh wait kinda like Warlocks, Sorcerers and Wizards do all the time. Yes Hexblade is a thing and Bladesinging is a thing. Maybe it make sense for THOSE subclasses not to have bonus spells known. But how many melee sorcerers do you know?
At the end of the day stating the extra spells known are ineffective or never used is not a valid argument for WHY the classes dedicated to magic don't have this mechanic.
If you want to cast more spells, play something besides a Warlock. The entire Warlock thing is other magical stuff instead of spell slots.
You get so many other magical stuff, THAT is why you do not get more slots. Get the invocations that let you do something 1/day, or better yet, unlimited times.
Especially because you can buy a pearl of power.
Maybe actually read the thread. Literally no one has mentioned the number of spell slots. The discussion is why it make sense that the 3 primary caster classes should have more spells known. Literally nothing to do with anything you said.....
I don’t think anyone here who is arguing for warlocks knowing their pact spells has come up with a reason other than “other classes get it, why shouldn’t warlocks.” The whole point of having different classes is so that they have different feature that make characters distinct. Furthermore, I don’t think that clerics or land druids are OP op for having free spells (Paladins are kinda OP but Oath spells isn’t why) or that warlocks and wizards are underpowered because they don’t have that. There’s really no point for anything to change.
Rumors of my awesomeness have been greatly unexaggerated.
"It is our choices ... that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." — Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.
About 50% of my brain power is devoted to thinking up eloquent speeches that I’ll probably never use.