I usually play martial characters. Being a DM who deals with wizards, the last damn thing I want to do as a player, everything else being equal, is deal with finicky wizard crap. When I’m playing, I mostly just want to just hit things- but I’ve changed my tone and elected to play a Goliath div wizard with a dip in twilight cleric for arms and armour (we rolled our stats, I rolled well, and it Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time). Currently wiz4/cle1.
My issue: I’ve read optimization guide upon optimization guide upon optimization guide when it comes to wizards generally and div specifically, and I understand what makes sense from an optimization standpoint. I get the math. I understand the issues, pluses, and minuses from a theoretical and practical perspective.
My problem’s this: it’s no fun. Toll the Dead is great. Fireball is great. Dispel magic is great. Suggestion, as a div wiz, is *excellent*. I have all the basics I need down- I’m just not having as much fun as my third level bladesinger player who picked grease on a lark and for the last three games ha been greasing up every damn enemy in sight.
So, setting aside the optimization guides -and ignoring unhelpful “pick what you think is fun” advice (because duh- and I also have a party to worry about), how do YOU go about picking spells? And while on the topic, what thresholds or markers do you pay attention to to justify spending a spell slot, rather than a cantrip?
At the end of the day, I may just be a martial character guy. Love my half-orc Echo Knight 6/barb 2, along with my bugbear path of the beast barbarian. Unsubtle characters with unsubtle classes and unsubtle races. I want to love my div wiz the same way.
That depends. Play and pick what you thin is fun is a very good advice. Your party will be fine, no matter what you pick.
I mayself play a transmuter at the time, because i really don't care about min-maxing and transmutation is my favorite school of magic, because i like the spells that you find here. The school of Transmutation wizard is cool but not great. Mainly because it doesn't make your transmutation magic any better, which is a sad and unique selling proposition of this "school of ..."--subclass. To feel like a tranmuter i have to pick transmutation-spells. I don't care what the best spells are. I mainly pick from my school when leveling up. Additionally i consider the character i'm playing when i make choices on spell's i'm picking. My character will not pick fly but gaseous form, because that is more the kind of magic that he would use. I can make these decissions pretty easily because i have made a character that i would enjoy playing. Now i only have to play into that character and have a lot of fun.
So long story short: Maybe you should think about your character-choice here. When playing a wizard, was diviner/Cleric really the right choice for you? Maybe a war-mage or bladesinger would fit better, or a shady enchanter, or tricky illusionist would make more fun to play for you.
It looks to me that you essentially have 2 questions:
Help me find a wizard playing style which I can enjoy, and, (more overtly), how do you allocate spell slots as a wizard?
For the former (if I’m incorrect please ignore) I suppose my advice is to have a think about what is fun. I agree, you named some great spells but they are a bit meh in my eyes as well (fully understand others would disagree). So how do you want to contribute to the party, and how do you want to role play the character? For me there is something about a Div-wiz that smacks of Treantmonk’s God Mode wizard: the ability to know enough to be able to just place your finger on the scales of chance by altering reality in the correct way at the correct time. I’d recommend playing around with you divinations and seeing how they can give you, with your particular play style, an advantage, For me that would mean things like Detect Thoughts and Phantasmal force, maybe. Augury (if you have Tasha’s) all the time (I like my ritual caster thing). A bat familiar can be a god send with that blindsight, so maybe spam fog cloud and give a running commentary to your team so they know the movements of the enemy and collaborate effectively. Detect Thoughts can function in a similar way if you’re up against an invisible baddie - “look out Jimmy, he’s right behind you and he’s using poisoned weapons!”. With a second level in twilight you could be in the back row giving the team some fresh temporary HP lovin’, be holding a Detect Thoughts and scanning for intentions while throwing out advice and Mind Sliver spells each round. That’s potentially a massive level of contribution to the combat.
Later things like Arcane Eye will supplement your familiar’s scouting abilities and you may be able to shift the course of a session profoundly. Minor illusion could really play well with being forwarded (I’m thinking of slitting enemies up with sound/ventriloquism but you can probably come up with better uses). But I’m assuming you want to play a type of thematic Div-wiz. Another way, as you hinted at with your comment about suggestion, is to maximise the low portent rolls. Phantasmal force and enemies abound could be good fun here. Would your DM let you play the frost giant who thinks everyone is trying to kill him for a round or two after you cast enemies abound? That might be a laugh and satisfy your blood lust?
I’m just throwing ideas out there, not trying to say you should do this or that. I suppose the point is play round with who you want to be. Then choose your spells.
As you your second question, power to the point. I would always use a cantrip when a cantrip will do. When my slots can be used to achieve more then I would use them - with the obvious one eye looking at how soon I can rest.
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Old time player, who has been following 5e for a while. Started with AD&D, CoC, RuneQuest, T&T, MERP, Role Master and Paranoia. I'm 50 yo at time of writing.
I’m a hardcore optimizer playing in a group of all-in role players, so I often found myself trying to match this perfect balance between effectiveness and characterization. In the end of the day, there’s no point to devote yourself fully to the drama with 8 CON or not getting a single useful spell.
The beauty about Wizards is that even one spell can really change the game and be effective most of the time… like Grease, as you mentioned.
For instance, I recently played a Diviner pacifist who were hilariously naive. I had decided to not select any spell capable of inflicting direct damage — no Firebolt, no Toll the Dead, no Magic Missile, no Fireball. But of course this was not an issue because Wizards have access to the best control spells ever, but how would I justify my clumsy cute Wizard casting Web? He was much more the guy trying to calm things down with some Charm Person, Sleep or something.
So my signature spell became LEVITATE, properly backed by Portent. And it was really fun. “Please, don’t kill this Troll, let’s try to have a conversation!” And the group getting the hell out of the Troll, of course he was beating us really hard as well, Fighter and Rogue went down after DM lucky damage rolls, my character “naively” casted Levitate in order to stop the fighting (me, the player, of course knew that the combat was getting dangerous, so I decided to do something about it). The Troll started flying up, not able to hit us anymore, we managed some healing and the group took him down at range, even figuring out the need of fire and etc. My character was sad and he tried to argue, but the group didn’t listen and killed the Troll ASAP. It was super fun, everyone was happy and all the players acknowledged my Wizard saved our bacon.
In terms of spell selection, despiste anything, I have some table stakes spells that I select regardless of everything. They are:
L1: Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, Shield, Sleep (only T1) L2: Misty Step, Tasha’s Mind Whip, Web L3: Counterspell, Leomund’s Tiny Hut L4: Polymorph
These are the kind of spells that transform a deadly encounter in something more manageable without worrying about play style — and they are super fun.
The decision about going cantrip or burn a spell slot usually goes with estimating how deadly is the encounter, when the next rest will happen and how effective this spell will be. Should I really bet casting my 4th level save-or-suck spell against a creature who has Magic Resistance, Legendary Saves or big saving throw? Resource management is hard, but knowing your enemy is important to not put all eggs in one basket. Cantrips should be used tactically. A vial of Oil + Create Bonfire can cause 1d8 + 5 fire damage over two rounds. By positioning the bonfire accordingly, you can try to make the creature provoke an OA from your Rogue/Paladin/GWM buddy. You just spent 0,25 gp and contributed a lot with DPR.
My current Wizard is all about damage. He is an Evoker. The opposite of the old pacifist. Do you know the spell am I casting most? Dissonant Whispers (from Fey Touched). We have a EK in the party with Booming Blade and Warcaster. It’s our signature party combo. DM saw that we were trivializing melee encounters and thrown some archers against us. I casted Warding Wind and neutralized it completely.
I focus on the roleplay and what makes sense for each character. My spell selection may be sub-optimal, but I leave it until the round I'm casting to try to figure out how to make it work. That might not work for everybody. I've been gaming since the 1980s, so I have a lot of experience to draw upon. I also enjoy being challenged and make things harder on myself on purpose. But, it might work for you.
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Hey errybody.
I usually play martial characters. Being a DM who deals with wizards, the last damn thing I want to do as a player, everything else being equal, is deal with finicky wizard crap. When I’m playing, I mostly just want to just hit things- but I’ve changed my tone and elected to play a Goliath div wizard with a dip in twilight cleric for arms and armour (we rolled our stats, I rolled well, and it Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time). Currently wiz4/cle1.
My issue: I’ve read optimization guide upon optimization guide upon optimization guide when it comes to wizards generally and div specifically, and I understand what makes sense from an optimization standpoint. I get the math. I understand the issues, pluses, and minuses from a theoretical and practical perspective.
My problem’s this: it’s no fun. Toll the Dead is great. Fireball is great. Dispel magic is great. Suggestion, as a div wiz, is *excellent*. I have all the basics I need down- I’m just not having as much fun as my third level bladesinger player who picked grease on a lark and for the last three games ha been greasing up every damn enemy in sight.
So, setting aside the optimization guides -and ignoring unhelpful “pick what you think is fun” advice (because duh- and I also have a party to worry about), how do YOU go about picking spells? And while on the topic, what thresholds or markers do you pay attention to to justify spending a spell slot, rather than a cantrip?
At the end of the day, I may just be a martial character guy. Love my half-orc Echo Knight 6/barb 2, along with my bugbear path of the beast barbarian. Unsubtle characters with unsubtle classes and unsubtle races. I want to love my div wiz the same way.
Thoughts appreciated!
That depends. Play and pick what you thin is fun is a very good advice. Your party will be fine, no matter what you pick.
I mayself play a transmuter at the time, because i really don't care about min-maxing and transmutation is my favorite school of magic, because i like the spells that you find here. The school of Transmutation wizard is cool but not great. Mainly because it doesn't make your transmutation magic any better, which is a sad and unique selling proposition of this "school of ..."--subclass. To feel like a tranmuter i have to pick transmutation-spells. I don't care what the best spells are. I mainly pick from my school when leveling up. Additionally i consider the character i'm playing when i make choices on spell's i'm picking. My character will not pick fly but gaseous form, because that is more the kind of magic that he would use. I can make these decissions pretty easily because i have made a character that i would enjoy playing. Now i only have to play into that character and have a lot of fun.
So long story short: Maybe you should think about your character-choice here. When playing a wizard, was diviner/Cleric really the right choice for you? Maybe a war-mage or bladesinger would fit better, or a shady enchanter, or tricky illusionist would make more fun to play for you.
It looks to me that you essentially have 2 questions:
Help me find a wizard playing style which I can enjoy, and, (more overtly), how do you allocate spell slots as a wizard?
For the former (if I’m incorrect please ignore) I suppose my advice is to have a think about what is fun. I agree, you named some great spells but they are a bit meh in my eyes as well (fully understand others would disagree). So how do you want to contribute to the party, and how do you want to role play the character? For me there is something about a Div-wiz that smacks of Treantmonk’s God Mode wizard: the ability to know enough to be able to just place your finger on the scales of chance by altering reality in the correct way at the correct time. I’d recommend playing around with you divinations and seeing how they can give you, with your particular play style, an advantage, For me that would mean things like Detect Thoughts and Phantasmal force, maybe. Augury (if you have Tasha’s) all the time (I like my ritual caster thing). A bat familiar can be a god send with that blindsight, so maybe spam fog cloud and give a running commentary to your team so they know the movements of the enemy and collaborate effectively. Detect Thoughts can function in a similar way if you’re up against an invisible baddie - “look out Jimmy, he’s right behind you and he’s using poisoned weapons!”. With a second level in twilight you could be in the back row giving the team some fresh temporary HP lovin’, be holding a Detect Thoughts and scanning for intentions while throwing out advice and Mind Sliver spells each round. That’s potentially a massive level of contribution to the combat.
Later things like Arcane Eye will supplement your familiar’s scouting abilities and you may be able to shift the course of a session profoundly. Minor illusion could really play well with being forwarded (I’m thinking of slitting enemies up with sound/ventriloquism but you can probably come up with better uses). But I’m assuming you want to play a type of thematic Div-wiz. Another way, as you hinted at with your comment about suggestion, is to maximise the low portent rolls. Phantasmal force and enemies abound could be good fun here. Would your DM let you play the frost giant who thinks everyone is trying to kill him for a round or two after you cast enemies abound? That might be a laugh and satisfy your blood lust?
I’m just throwing ideas out there, not trying to say you should do this or that. I suppose the point is play round with who you want to be. Then choose your spells.
As you your second question, power to the point. I would always use a cantrip when a cantrip will do. When my slots can be used to achieve more then I would use them - with the obvious one eye looking at how soon I can rest.
Old time player, who has been following 5e for a while. Started with AD&D, CoC, RuneQuest, T&T, MERP, Role Master and Paranoia. I'm 50 yo at time of writing.
I’m a hardcore optimizer playing in a group of all-in role players, so I often found myself trying to match this perfect balance between effectiveness and characterization. In the end of the day, there’s no point to devote yourself fully to the drama with 8 CON or not getting a single useful spell.
The beauty about Wizards is that even one spell can really change the game and be effective most of the time… like Grease, as you mentioned.
For instance, I recently played a Diviner pacifist who were hilariously naive. I had decided to not select any spell capable of inflicting direct damage — no Firebolt, no Toll the Dead, no Magic Missile, no Fireball. But of course this was not an issue because Wizards have access to the best control spells ever, but how would I justify my clumsy cute Wizard casting Web? He was much more the guy trying to calm things down with some Charm Person, Sleep or something.
So my signature spell became LEVITATE, properly backed by Portent. And it was really fun. “Please, don’t kill this Troll, let’s try to have a conversation!” And the group getting the hell out of the Troll, of course he was beating us really hard as well, Fighter and Rogue went down after DM lucky damage rolls, my character “naively” casted Levitate in order to stop the fighting (me, the player, of course knew that the combat was getting dangerous, so I decided to do something about it). The Troll started flying up, not able to hit us anymore, we managed some healing and the group took him down at range, even figuring out the need of fire and etc. My character was sad and he tried to argue, but the group didn’t listen and killed the Troll ASAP. It was super fun, everyone was happy and all the players acknowledged my Wizard saved our bacon.
In terms of spell selection, despiste anything, I have some table stakes spells that I select regardless of everything. They are:
L1: Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, Shield, Sleep (only T1)
L2: Misty Step, Tasha’s Mind Whip, Web
L3: Counterspell, Leomund’s Tiny Hut
L4: Polymorph
These are the kind of spells that transform a deadly encounter in something more manageable without worrying about play style — and they are super fun.
The decision about going cantrip or burn a spell slot usually goes with estimating how deadly is the encounter, when the next rest will happen and how effective this spell will be. Should I really bet casting my 4th level save-or-suck spell against a creature who has Magic Resistance, Legendary Saves or big saving throw? Resource management is hard, but knowing your enemy is important to not put all eggs in one basket. Cantrips should be used tactically. A vial of Oil + Create Bonfire can cause 1d8 + 5 fire damage over two rounds. By positioning the bonfire accordingly, you can try to make the creature provoke an OA from your Rogue/Paladin/GWM buddy. You just spent 0,25 gp and contributed a lot with DPR.
My current Wizard is all about damage. He is an Evoker. The opposite of the old pacifist. Do you know the spell am I casting most? Dissonant Whispers (from Fey Touched). We have a EK in the party with Booming Blade and Warcaster. It’s our signature party combo. DM saw that we were trivializing melee encounters and thrown some archers against us. I casted Warding Wind and neutralized it completely.
Wizards are really fun.
I focus on the roleplay and what makes sense for each character. My spell selection may be sub-optimal, but I leave it until the round I'm casting to try to figure out how to make it work. That might not work for everybody. I've been gaming since the 1980s, so I have a lot of experience to draw upon. I also enjoy being challenged and make things harder on myself on purpose. But, it might work for you.