Ok, so lets say that you can get the physical book from Amazon at $30, and the digital book here for $20, would that work for you? I mean, it does add up to the cost of what it would be for the Physical if you were to buy it at retail price after all.
That's a bit of curious logic... so basically, if anyone anywhere ever sells anything at a discount, instead of viewing that as a discount and being happy to have received it, you are saying you view that as the "normal" price and will then ask for even more of a discount because you need "a little more encouragement."
Because you are basically saying that paying $6 on Burger King's 2 for $6 mix and match deal is "paying double" for your whoppers, even though the normal price is actually like $4, so double would be $8 - which means you are actually only paying a little more, and you are getting more (in the case of buying a book on Amazon, then buying it here, you are looking at $60 total compared to the actual normal price of $50, so you are only paying %20 more, and in exchange you are getting a whole lot more than double).
Maybe if you unskewed your perception so that you can see massive discounts as massive discounts, rather than as "normal price", you'd feel like you were getting a better deal?
Personally, I don't see paying $30 on Amazon as a discount. The books are $30 on Amazon because Amazon basically cuts out all middle-man markup. The way I see it, if I buy the book in a brick-and-mortar store, I'm buying it for $30, and donating $20 to the store for the convenience. I mean, the fact that Amazon consistently has the books available for $30 means that that's what Wizards is actually looking to get for them and everything on top of that is gravy for them.
Which makes the $30 for the digital content all the more ridiculous to me. Physical goods have a marginal cost. It takes real money to produce and ship books. And they're pretty dense, so I imagine shipping is a pain. Digital stuff, though? No marginal cost. You make something once, and it doesn't matter if you make ten, or ten thousand sales. (There are obviously concerns about scaling servers to match customer needs but they're not remotely on par with the marginal cost of a physical product.)
This is also why basically every single PDF that you can buy for every other tabletop game costs somewhere from $10 to $20 less than the physical version. Not to mention if you buy the physical book online you can often get the PDF totally free.
Personally, I don't see paying $30 on Amazon as a discount.
Then that's you having a sight problem as what you are seeing does not line up to reality.
Digital stuff, though? No marginal cost.
Nonsense. Different costs? Yes. Lesser costs? Maybe.
This is also why basically every single PDF that you can buy for every other tabletop game costs somewhere from $10 to $20 less than the physical version.
It's not, actually.
The digital version and the physical version of a product outside of the table-top RPG book/PDF paradigm are often identical in price. See video games (buying a disc in-store vs. downloading, a PS4 game like Dissidia Final Fantasy NT is going to be $59.99, baring special sales promotions), or movies (new release is ~$20, whether I get the disc or just the movie). Why the book/PDF pricing is often (but not actually always) different comes down to a unique thing among the table-top RPG community - the "prospective customers" started loudly complaining that they were somehow getting less of a thing when they buy the digital version than if they had the book.
People loudly discounted all the advantages of digital (easier to search/navigate, easier to replace and also less likely to damage or "lose", makes it super convenient to carry your entire library of books, etc.) and loudly exaggerated the qualities of a physical book (how much of the price they pay is because of materials, how much they still would use it even if they had the digital version, etc.)... and the folks at some company somewhere decided to listen to these loud claims and offered a lower price on the digital version of a product. Then the rest of the industry had to follow suite or get loudly complained at and about for being "greedy" or the like.
So now, the actual practical value and functionality of the digital product is regarded as the least important consideration for setting the price, regardless of the fact that it makes an already hard to profit and prosper in industry even harder to profit and prosper in.
Then that's you having a sight problem as what you are seeing does not line up to reality.
I mean... It's that price, perpetually. That's not a discount, just like retail stores perpetually marking all of their inventory at 90% off isn't a discount.
Nonsense. Different costs? Yes. Lesser costs? Maybe.
We're talking about a completely different order of magnitude of marginal cost. Software is trivial to duplicate- data even more so. A heavy user is going to use up maybe a dollar of bandwidth using the site over the course of a few years.
It's not, actually.
The digital version and the physical version of a product outside of the table-top RPG book/PDF paradigm are often identical in price. See video games (buying a disc in-store vs. downloading, a PS4 game like Dissidia Final Fantasy NT is going to be $59.99, baring special sales promotions), or movies (new release is ~$20, whether I get the disc or just the movie). Why the book/PDF pricing is often (but not actually always) different comes down to a unique thing among the table-top RPG community - the "prospective customers" started loudly complaining that they were somehow getting less of a thing when they buy the digital version than if they had the book.
First off, I was specifically talking about tabletop RPG conventions, so I don't find comparisons to other products particularly compelling. regardless, these are bad comparisons. The marginal cost of production for games and movies is really low. Like, a few dollars per disc. Hardcover, full color books are a lot more expensive per unit. Probably something like $20 each based on quotes I could find. Not to mention, for games and movies, it makes sense to keep all your prices the same, because the user is ultimately getting the same thing. A disc and a download are just two different ways of transferring data to your playback device. If one is cheaper than the other, there's basically no reason for someone to go after the more expensive one. A book and a PDF are inherently different in how you can operate them. People will buy them for different reasons, maybe even both.
People loudly discounted all the advantages of digital (easier to search/navigate, easier to replace and also less likely to damage or "lose", makes it super convenient to carry your entire library of books, etc.) and loudly exaggerated the qualities of a physical book (how much of the price they pay is because of materials, how much they still would use it even if they had the digital version, etc.)... and the folks at some company somewhere decided to listen to these loud claims and offered a lower price on the digital version of a product. Then the rest of the industry had to follow suite or get loudly complained at and about for being "greedy" or the like.
I mean, as someone who uses both PDFs and physical books, there's a huge appeal to me for having both. I use PDFs when I'm doing prep and character creation, and I use physical books at the table where I prefer not to have electronics. But I'm still intelligent enough to know that the costs for providing me with one vs the other are totally different, and I think that giving someone the PDF when they buy the physical book really ought to be the default.
So now, the actual practical value and functionality of the digital product is regarded as the least important consideration for setting the price, regardless of the fact that it makes an already hard to profit and prosper in industry even harder to profit and prosper in.
But in the case of a PDF, it's not like a major cost went into making it. They already had it as a prerequisite for making the physical book. The only additional work goes into adding bookmarks, assuming it didn't already have that for the sake of development. And any added practical value and functionality comes from something like Adobe Reader, not the PDF itself.
At the end of the day, I spend money based on what I feel a company has earned from me. If I feel like I'm being ripped off, I'm just not going to spend money to begin with.
It's not a specific price perpetually - even though it is perpetually less than MSRP, the price varies over time for reasons other than the usual it's older now so it's gotten less expensive.
It's not like one of those stores that sell only their own products so its up to them to set the prices and they have all their price tags say the price that they are always selling the item for is a special discount and some higher price that literally no one has ever actually been asked to pay because there is no other seller to buy the product from is crossed out to trick customers into "Ooh, it's on sale, I should buy this." purchases.
OK calm down. ...there is no need to get defensive on DDB's behalf.
Don't do that. You are assigning emotion to my statements made in a format which does not convey emotion, and that is only useful as a tool by which to attack me as a person rather than my arguments. It is not a way to have a civil discussion. And ascribing to me the motive of being "defensive on DDB's behalf" is similarly non-civil. Saying I'm doing something other than expressing my opinions just the same as you is an attempt to paint me as doing something I'm not supposed to be doing.
Text can convey emotion just fine. There is more than enough context by which to infer defensiveness on your part.
"Hey I think this kind of deal would be neat"
"Why can't you be happy with what you can get now? You need to unskew your perception."
Maybe it's your perception that is skewed? I'm pretty new to these forums, but since these posts I've read some other threads on the topic and it seems like you and some others have been having similar discussions with people for quite a while. Some of the arguments presented by those people are not arguments I would agree with, but it feels like I'm being lumped in with them. I do not feel entitled to any free stuff, and there is no reason I can think of why my suggestion of a bundle deal would prompt the kind of indignant reaction it has.
...I would argue that you are not getting "a whole lot more than double" the value.
Then I would ask that quantify exactly how much more benefit you do feel is gained, since you are rejecting my assessment of the situation as Object A) a readable source of game content, and Object B) a readable source of game content, digitally searchable, aids in character generation to the point of even filling out a sheet, filterable and reorganize-able, with more functionality to come, and also incorporates errata alterations into the game content instead of having to go without or find those separately. Which is "more than double" because two of Object A (read: two of the same book) would be exactly double.
If you don't think that's an exact translation to whoppers for some reason, just imagine that you are looking at the $2 for 6 deal when you aren't actually positive that you're hungry enough to eat both whoppers, since that should put you in roughly the same frame of mind as not seeing a second copy of a book you already have as being as useful as the first copy.
OK, so what if Burger King decided to start charging $8 for a Whopper? Would you say that's a bad deal? Why, when you can go to another restaurant and buy a burger for $15. That's almost half price! You should be happy getting such a great deal and stop complaining.
I can't "quantify exactly" how much more benefit is gained, obviously. How would I even begin? To play D&D, you need to know the rules. If you're interested in anything beyond what's in the SRD, you need to purchase something. You can satisfy this by purchasing a book physically or by going the DDB route. I would argue that access to this information and a facilitation of gameplay is the primary benefit of both options. Having the physical book allows you to use it when you don't have internet access, allows you to loan it to friends, will never run out of battery charge like your tablet or phone can, allows you to enjoy flipping through the pages the old-fashioned way (which yes, some of us enjoy), etc. The DDB route gives you the benefits you describe. How each of these benefits is weighted is up to each individual, of course, but as the primary function of both options is the same, you don't get that benefit twice when purchasing both. It doesn't stack. If I were to put some (extremely basic and unsophisticated) numbers on it, it would be like this:
Book: Access to rules + Book Conveniences DDB: Access to rules + Electronic Conveniences
Book + DDB: Access to rules + Access to rules + Book Conveniences + Electronic Conveniences Book + DDB: Access to rules + Book Conveniences + Electronic Conveniences
So, I guess...33% more benefit? Like I said, though, everyone values specifics differently. If you value one or more of the DDB benefits so highly that it causes you to view DDB as more than twice as good as a physical book, then more power to you. I do not see it that way.
...a possible way to get a win for everyone.
For a quantity of "everyone" that does not include anyone who is supposed to be getting a pay check from the work they put into which ever part of this whole D&D deal you feel should be eating the losses caused by lowering the price even more because you want a "win" you can't see you already have in the multiple ways to get your D&D stuff ~40% off actual price (yes, that is way less than double, sorry if you don't see it that way: 0.6+0.6 = 1.2, not 2).
Who would not be getting paid? Both Curse and WotC would be making money off of this. If I chose to go the DDB route, then WotC would be making $0 off me. If I go the book route, Curse makes $0. If they offered a package deal, they'd both be making money, and I'd be getting to eat my cake and have it too. Would their profit margin be slightly less? Sure, but that's how sales work. A smaller profit margin on a sale is better than no sale.
And you're treating the Amazon price as this amazing deal I'm receiving. The Amazon price IS the "actual price" of the book as far as I'm concerned. It's not a sale, not a coupon. Just like knowing that a restaurant will serve me a burger for $15 doesn't mean the base price of every burger is $15, I don't care what I would be paying if I deliberately chose to buy from someone who charged more. If a friend offered to sell me a PHB for $300 that doesn't mean that all of a sudden Amazon is offering me a 90% discount.
Text can also be read assuming whatever emotion you want to of the author and it come out making just as much sense as if you'd chosen some other emotional state of the writer to assume. So unless someone assigns emotion to their text, it's not actually a safe assumption no matter what emotional state you assume them to be in.
OK, so what if Burger King decided to start charging $8 for a Whopper? Would you say that's a bad deal?
Yes - just like I would consider it a bad deal for WotC to start trying to sell D&D books for $99.90 instead of the $49.95 they currently do. There is such a thing as fair market value; it's not unreasonable for a fast food joint to ask a $4 price for a burger because that's a competitive price for burger of that quality, just as it's not unreasonable for a game publisher to ask a $50 price for their game book because that's a competitive price for a full-color art-laden game book of that quality - but if either start asking significantly more, they are no longer competitive prices, and no longer reasonable either.
Book Conveniences
I'm curious what those are, and how they aren't completely out-weighed by what I know digital conveniences to be.
Who would not be getting paid? Both Curse and WotC would be making money off of this. If I chose to go the DDB route, then WotC would be making $0 off me. If I go the book route, Curse makes $0. If they offered a package deal, they'd both be making money...
The situation as is is actually more that if you choose to go the DDB route, Curse makes enough money to pay their employees, keep their business prospering, and pay their licensing fees to WotC, so WotC makes more than $0 off your DDB purchase. Which is why when you said that the book plus the DDB stuff together should be cheaper than it already is, I was talking about that meaning an inherent decrease in the amount of money that would be felt somewhere - such as in Curse not prospering as well, or not being able to afford as many or as competent staff.
It's not a sale..
It literally is a sale. Also, are you familiar with the term MSRP?
Ok, so lets say that you can get the physical book from Amazon at $30, and the digital book here for $20, would that work for you? I mean, it does add up to the cost of what it would be for the Physical if you were to buy it at retail price after all.
Yeah I think that would be a pretty decent deal.
Then fantastic, do I have a deal for you! When you look at the digital book here on DDB, Find the book you want (seems to be only on source books, not adventure's which kinda makes sense) go to pricing options and scroll down to the "Compendium Content Only" section and purchase that. For the main 3 and at least XGtE, it is only $19.99. This is a digital copy of the book and covers licensing fee to WOTC. It will be an exact usefullness of the physical book in your hands.
Purchasing this bundle unlocks the Xanathar's Guide to Everything book in digital format in the game compendium with all the artwork and maps, cross-linking, and tooltips.
The Compendium Content bundle does not grant access to all the content’s options in the rest of the toolset, such as the searchable listings, character builder, or digital sheet.
All those extra features of being able to use it for character creation and such is the added value by Curse, and if you want that, you would have to pay for it. Plus, i still think you getting way more than what a PDF would give you with the cross linking and tool tips.
Also as for the cost of a PDF vs DDB. yes, a PDF is mainly once and done. maybe go back and fix a few things. but you miss out on a lot of features that DDB has put in. Cross-linking, tool-tips, searchable listings (though i can search within a PDF as well but only that one PDF), character creation, campaign management, legal content sharing (I would assume that sharing your PDF would be a no-no and violation of the terms of use). All of this is continuously updated and content added. Your PDF will not have that.
IMO, there should be an option to unlock the books if we have physical copies of them instead of having to also buy a digital copy. That to me is greed from their end. They've made a great thing with D&DBeyond but i can't justify using it, if i have to re-buy everything digitally.
IMO, there should be an option to unlock the books if we have physical copies of them instead of having to also buy a digital copy. That to me is greed from their end. They've made a great thing with D&DBeyond but i can't justify using it, if i have to re-buy everything digitally.
-Would you make the same argument about buying a second copy of the physical books?
-If it worked this way, how would the staff at Curse get paid for all their work of building the tools, morphing the content into the database behind the tools, creating the tags/tooltips, etc? [Remember, DnD Beyond is owned by Curse, not WOTC]
Note that if you have the time and inclination, you can now enter nearly all the character related content into your private homebrew and use the tools for free. The biggest exception to that is subclasses can't yet be homebrewed, but that's coming.
No worries if you decide the cost isn't worth it for you; that's absolutely your right to decide. But I object to accusing Curse of greed for making economically sound decisions. (If they were greedy, they wouldn't allow folks to purchase individual items, or to homebrew official content for private use, or to share content)
IMO, there should be an option to unlock the books if we have physical copies of them instead of having to also buy a digital copy. That to me is greed from their end. They've made a great thing with D&DBeyond but i can't justify using it, if i have to re-buy everything digitally.
Great, I guess we won't be seeing you around. Happy gaming.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
IMO, there should be an option to unlock the books if we have physical copies of them instead of having to also buy a digital copy. That to me is greed from their end. They've made a great thing with D&DBeyond but i can't justify using it, if i have to re-buy everything digitally.
If you could, please share your thoughts with how you propose to validate your physical book purchase. I'm sure many here would enjoy a solution.
As a proof of purchase, mail to DDB the first page of each book where title and author credits appear? Then get the rebate coupon(s) by email. 50% would be a deal breaker.
WotC, in future paper edition, add a 50% rebate coupon in each copy. I would like so muh to have both paper and DDB w/o paying twice.
This problem is to be discuted WotC and Twitch, because it is also in WotC interest to keep their existing (paper) customers happy and the current deal/system does not provide that. Such a waste...
As a proof of purchase, mail to DDB the first page of each book where title and author credits appear? Then get the rebate coupon(s) by email. 50% would be a deal breaker.
And how do they verify that you didn't copy the first page from a friend's copy, or a copy in the library, or a copy at the store?
WotC, in future paper edition, add a 50% rebate coupon in each copy. I would like so muh to have both paper and DDB w/o paying twice.
Again, easy to falsify (just make a copy of the coupon). Using something that isn't easy to falsify means adding staff and a whole verification process. (Actually, even the easily copied coupon does that; more verification means more costs). So those costs get added to the price of physical books, meaning that those buying physical books who don't want digital access are subsidizing digital access for those that do.
Does rebate apply only to DDB? What about Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds?
This problem is to be discuted WotC and Twitch, because it is also in WotC interest to keep their existing (paper) customers happy and the current deal/system does not provide that.
That's a pretty universal statement. I'm an "existing (paper) customer" and I'm happy with the current situation. I know from reading the forums there are plenty of other "existing (paper) customers" who are also happy with the current reality. I don't have any way of knowing what the overall split is between happy/unhappy/don't care (paper) customers is on this issue, and I doubt that you do, either.
I understand the logic in the argument "WOTC needs to do ______". But you do understand, that you're asking WOTC to incur costs that would diminish their profits and license sales, yes? How does anyone pitch an idea to a board of directors where the result is allotting free merchandise?
They don't give you a free 2nd physical copy at the gaming store after purchasing one, why would they give you a 2nd book here? Is the work of the Curse team dimissed because it is digital in nature? Is less value placed upon the coding and programming work they've performed to make these tools available? At what point is Curse, a 3rd party retailer, compensated for their time and efforts?
It's easy to expect free items or even feel entitled to them. Unfortunately, that's not how business or capitalism works. The game store isn't giving you additional free copies because you purchased one from them, and Curse surely isn't giving you free copies because you purchased from someone else. Asking WOTC to spend the resources to develop an authentication system or print coupons so that they can lose margins is a hard sell. I believe Curse is doing well for what they've offered and WOTC is happy with current results.
Is the work of the Curse team dimissed because it is digital in nature? Is less value placed upon the coding and programming work they've performed to make these tools available?
Yes, absolutely. I say this as someone who works in software. Beyond is not pushing the boundaries of web development. It's drop-down menus, forms, and tooltips. Recouping the cost of development could've been done with a flat entry cost, or a subscription to get all the content. Charging users for each piece of content individually ensures that after a certain point, each new D&D book is just free money for Curse, and presumably Wizards as well.
Is the work of the Curse team dimissed because it is digital in nature? Is less value placed upon the coding and programming work they've performed to make these tools available?
Yes, absolutely. I say this as someone who works in software. Beyond is not pushing the boundaries of web development. It's drop-down menus, forms, and tooltips. Recouping the cost of development could've been done with a flat entry cost, or a subscription to get all the content. Charging users for each piece of content individually ensures that after a certain point, each new D&D book is just free money for Curse, and presumably Wizards as well.
Unfortunately I don't share this opinion at all. Just use XGtE as example, giving support to the new subclasses on the existing tools required many and many hours of development. Even if it is just a monster book, you have to populate the database with the monster data and make all the tooltips for all the entries available. To have an idea of the work just think how much time take you just to read and understand a full D&D book. Even the curse dev team is not that big, so each extra feature counts towards the dev time. Also you are not considering other parts of the dev that are financed by those purchases but offered for free. Like the mobile app and UA support now.
Is the work of the Curse team dimissed because it is digital in nature? Is less value placed upon the coding and programming work they've performed to make these tools available?
Yes, absolutely. I say this as someone who works in software. Beyond is not pushing the boundaries of web development. It's drop-down menus, forms, and tooltips. Recouping the cost of development could've been done with a flat entry cost, or a subscription to get all the content. Charging users for each piece of content individually ensures that after a certain point, each new D&D book is just free money for Curse, and presumably Wizards as well.
Unfortunately I don't share this opinion at all. Just use XGtE as example, giving support to the new subclasses on the existing tools required many and many hours of development. Even if it is just a monster book, you have to populate the database with the monster data and make all the tooltips for all the entries available. To have an idea of the work just think how much time take you just to read and understand a full D&D book. Even the curse dev team is not that big, so each extra feature counts towards the dev time. Also you are not considering other parts of the dev that are financed by those purchases but offered for free. Like the mobile app and UA support now.
Yes, obviously entering the data from a new book costs time. It does not cost $30 per user time.
This is very upsetting! I have every book ever released for 5e and I might seem old fashioned, but to me the physical books remain my favourite way to consult the content. If there would be a way to unlock content appart from buying it a second time, it would be much more appealing. Even a monthly subscription could be a great and easy fix. This only makes me search for other sources of electronic content and does not incite me to buy further products.
Then that's you having a sight problem as what you are seeing does not line up to reality.
Nonsense. Different costs? Yes. Lesser costs? Maybe.
It's not, actually.The digital version and the physical version of a product outside of the table-top RPG book/PDF paradigm are often identical in price. See video games (buying a disc in-store vs. downloading, a PS4 game like Dissidia Final Fantasy NT is going to be $59.99, baring special sales promotions), or movies (new release is ~$20, whether I get the disc or just the movie). Why the book/PDF pricing is often (but not actually always) different comes down to a unique thing among the table-top RPG community - the "prospective customers" started loudly complaining that they were somehow getting less of a thing when they buy the digital version than if they had the book.
People loudly discounted all the advantages of digital (easier to search/navigate, easier to replace and also less likely to damage or "lose", makes it super convenient to carry your entire library of books, etc.) and loudly exaggerated the qualities of a physical book (how much of the price they pay is because of materials, how much they still would use it even if they had the digital version, etc.)... and the folks at some company somewhere decided to listen to these loud claims and offered a lower price on the digital version of a product. Then the rest of the industry had to follow suite or get loudly complained at and about for being "greedy" or the like.
So now, the actual practical value and functionality of the digital product is regarded as the least important consideration for setting the price, regardless of the fact that it makes an already hard to profit and prosper in industry even harder to profit and prosper in.
I mean... It's that price, perpetually. That's not a discount, just like retail stores perpetually marking all of their inventory at 90% off isn't a discount.
First off, I was specifically talking about tabletop RPG conventions, so I don't find comparisons to other products particularly compelling. regardless, these are bad comparisons. The marginal cost of production for games and movies is really low. Like, a few dollars per disc. Hardcover, full color books are a lot more expensive per unit. Probably something like $20 each based on quotes I could find. Not to mention, for games and movies, it makes sense to keep all your prices the same, because the user is ultimately getting the same thing. A disc and a download are just two different ways of transferring data to your playback device. If one is cheaper than the other, there's basically no reason for someone to go after the more expensive one. A book and a PDF are inherently different in how you can operate them. People will buy them for different reasons, maybe even both.
I mean, as someone who uses both PDFs and physical books, there's a huge appeal to me for having both. I use PDFs when I'm doing prep and character creation, and I use physical books at the table where I prefer not to have electronics. But I'm still intelligent enough to know that the costs for providing me with one vs the other are totally different, and I think that giving someone the PDF when they buy the physical book really ought to be the default.
It's not a specific price perpetually - even though it is perpetually less than MSRP, the price varies over time for reasons other than the usual it's older now so it's gotten less expensive.
It's not like one of those stores that sell only their own products so its up to them to set the prices and they have all their price tags say the price that they are always selling the item for is a special discount and some higher price that literally no one has ever actually been asked to pay because there is no other seller to buy the product from is crossed out to trick customers into "Ooh, it's on sale, I should buy this." purchases.
Text can convey emotion just fine. There is more than enough context by which to infer defensiveness on your part.
"Hey I think this kind of deal would be neat"
"Why can't you be happy with what you can get now? You need to unskew your perception."
Maybe it's your perception that is skewed? I'm pretty new to these forums, but since these posts I've read some other threads on the topic and it seems like you and some others have been having similar discussions with people for quite a while. Some of the arguments presented by those people are not arguments I would agree with, but it feels like I'm being lumped in with them. I do not feel entitled to any free stuff, and there is no reason I can think of why my suggestion of a bundle deal would prompt the kind of indignant reaction it has.
OK, so what if Burger King decided to start charging $8 for a Whopper? Would you say that's a bad deal? Why, when you can go to another restaurant and buy a burger for $15. That's almost half price! You should be happy getting such a great deal and stop complaining.
I can't "quantify exactly" how much more benefit is gained, obviously. How would I even begin? To play D&D, you need to know the rules. If you're interested in anything beyond what's in the SRD, you need to purchase something. You can satisfy this by purchasing a book physically or by going the DDB route. I would argue that access to this information and a facilitation of gameplay is the primary benefit of both options. Having the physical book allows you to use it when you don't have internet access, allows you to loan it to friends, will never run out of battery charge like your tablet or phone can, allows you to enjoy flipping through the pages the old-fashioned way (which yes, some of us enjoy), etc. The DDB route gives you the benefits you describe. How each of these benefits is weighted is up to each individual, of course, but as the primary function of both options is the same, you don't get that benefit twice when purchasing both. It doesn't stack. If I were to put some (extremely basic and unsophisticated) numbers on it, it would be like this:
Book: Access to rules + Book Conveniences
DDB: Access to rules + Electronic Conveniences
Book + DDB: Access to rules +
Access to rules +Book Conveniences + Electronic ConveniencesBook + DDB: Access to rules + Book Conveniences + Electronic Conveniences
So, I guess...33% more benefit? Like I said, though, everyone values specifics differently. If you value one or more of the DDB benefits so highly that it causes you to view DDB as more than twice as good as a physical book, then more power to you. I do not see it that way.
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D&D Beyond FoundersPlease remember - attack the argument, not the person.
Please let's not see any further discussion on guessing emotions or motives of other users.
It doesn't contribute to a healthy debate.
Thank you. :)
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
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"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Text can also be read assuming whatever emotion you want to of the author and it come out making just as much sense as if you'd chosen some other emotional state of the writer to assume. So unless someone assigns emotion to their text, it's not actually a safe assumption no matter what emotional state you assume them to be in.
Yes - just like I would consider it a bad deal for WotC to start trying to sell D&D books for $99.90 instead of the $49.95 they currently do. There is such a thing as fair market value; it's not unreasonable for a fast food joint to ask a $4 price for a burger because that's a competitive price for burger of that quality, just as it's not unreasonable for a game publisher to ask a $50 price for their game book because that's a competitive price for a full-color art-laden game book of that quality - but if either start asking significantly more, they are no longer competitive prices, and no longer reasonable either.
I'm curious what those are, and how they aren't completely out-weighed by what I know digital conveniences to be.
The situation as is is actually more that if you choose to go the DDB route, Curse makes enough money to pay their employees, keep their business prospering, and pay their licensing fees to WotC, so WotC makes more than $0 off your DDB purchase. Which is why when you said that the book plus the DDB stuff together should be cheaper than it already is, I was talking about that meaning an inherent decrease in the amount of money that would be felt somewhere - such as in Curse not prospering as well, or not being able to afford as many or as competent staff.
It literally is a sale. Also, are you familiar with the term MSRP?All those extra features of being able to use it for character creation and such is the added value by Curse, and if you want that, you would have to pay for it. Plus, i still think you getting way more than what a PDF would give you with the cross linking and tool tips.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
IMO, there should be an option to unlock the books if we have physical copies of them instead of having to also buy a digital copy. That to me is greed from their end. They've made a great thing with D&DBeyond but i can't justify using it, if i have to re-buy everything digitally.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
As a proof of purchase, mail to DDB the first page of each book where title and author credits appear?
Then get the rebate coupon(s) by email. 50% would be a deal breaker.
WotC, in future paper edition, add a 50% rebate coupon in each copy. I would like so muh to have both paper and DDB w/o paying twice.
This problem is to be discuted WotC and Twitch, because it is also in WotC interest to keep their existing (paper) customers happy and the current deal/system does not provide that.
Such a waste...
And how do they verify that you didn't copy the first page from a friend's copy, or a copy in the library, or a copy at the store?
Again, easy to falsify (just make a copy of the coupon). Using something that isn't easy to falsify means adding staff and a whole verification process. (Actually, even the easily copied coupon does that; more verification means more costs). So those costs get added to the price of physical books, meaning that those buying physical books who don't want digital access are subsidizing digital access for those that do.
Does rebate apply only to DDB? What about Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds?
That's a pretty universal statement. I'm an "existing (paper) customer" and I'm happy with the current situation. I know from reading the forums there are plenty of other "existing (paper) customers" who are also happy with the current reality. I don't have any way of knowing what the overall split is between happy/unhappy/don't care (paper) customers is on this issue, and I doubt that you do, either.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
Check your entitlements here. | Support Ticket LInk
I understand the logic in the argument "WOTC needs to do ______". But you do understand, that you're asking WOTC to incur costs that would diminish their profits and license sales, yes? How does anyone pitch an idea to a board of directors where the result is allotting free merchandise?
They don't give you a free 2nd physical copy at the gaming store after purchasing one, why would they give you a 2nd book here? Is the work of the Curse team dimissed because it is digital in nature? Is less value placed upon the coding and programming work they've performed to make these tools available? At what point is Curse, a 3rd party retailer, compensated for their time and efforts?
It's easy to expect free items or even feel entitled to them. Unfortunately, that's not how business or capitalism works. The game store isn't giving you additional free copies because you purchased one from them, and Curse surely isn't giving you free copies because you purchased from someone else. Asking WOTC to spend the resources to develop an authentication system or print coupons so that they can lose margins is a hard sell. I believe Curse is doing well for what they've offered and WOTC is happy with current results.
Just my 2¢ though, as everyone has their own.
And I cast Heroism on the community.
This is very upsetting! I have every book ever released for 5e and I might seem old fashioned, but to me the physical books remain my favourite way to consult the content. If there would be a way to unlock content appart from buying it a second time, it would be much more appealing. Even a monthly subscription could be a great and easy fix. This only makes me search for other sources of electronic content and does not incite me to buy further products.