I doubt there is one person out there who would use this exclusively without physical copies of character sheets, a pencil, tablet, and our dice we love so damn much.
I think you'd be VERY surprised by some of the newer generation of gamers, who are not only happy to use entirely digital, but prefer to do so.
I prefer real dice myself, but I wonder how many years before we're in the minority.
PDF's may be old tech, but they are something that won't go away if I save it and not reliant on an internet connection. Curse already went away in it's old form and is now part of Twitch so the likelihood of it going away again isn't far fetched. With pricing, you said it yourself, cheaper on Amazon. If you want to pay more to support your local gaming store (mine isn't very local at all) then by all means, do so. At your table, you have physical books and dice, proving my point.
I doubt there is one person out there who would use this exclusively without physical copies of character sheets, a pencil, tablet, and our dice we love so damn much.
I think you'd be VERY surprised by some of the newer generation of gamers, who are not only happy to use entirely digital, but prefer to do so.
I prefer real dice myself, but I wonder how many years before we're in the minority.
I've been playing since 3.5 and have always had, at the very least, the PHB. We moved while playing 4e, made new friends, got them into D&D, then they moved away. By the time 5e came around, We had nobody to play with, so we never got around to buying any of the books. As of today, all my books are digital, thanks to D&D Beyond. I too prefer real dice, but I'll take what I can get.
Hard drives go bad after several years. Files become corrupted. Also, how many 15-20 year old files do you still actively use? Very few people hold on to data for that long.
I'm not familiar with Curse's "old form", but being under a larger company like Twitch (and subsequently Amazon) would give it more stability than it likely used to have. They also have a working and successful business model. Businesses that are doing well don't just pack up and go away on a whim because they feel like it. This is a bad argument.
My point about brick and mortar stores is that lots of people do pay those prices. I pre-ordered TftYP from Amazon, and was frustrated that most of my friends had it in their hands several weeks before mine was delivered (Amazon doesn't even ship until the release date, meaning even with Prime, that's 2 days later). So the benefit isn't even necessarily supporting a FLGS, as major book retailers also carry the physical books at MSRP. There's nothing wrong with buying from Amazon and saving some money IMO, but you can't say that everyone does that. It's just not true.
I have physical books, but like I said, they never get used. Dice have nothing to do with D&D Beyond. Last time I checked, PDFs don't include dice roller applications either, so I'm not sure I get your point. Also, I do know several people who do use dice roller apps at the table. You made the claim that no one would switch to digital, and again, that is not a true statement.
Should have been more clear in the no one comment, I mean a very very small percentage. Kinda like NOBODY likes PT Cruisers when I'm sure there is some mouth breather out there that loves that steaming pile of crap lol. We old schoolers will always want physical copies of things and real dice. I play on Roll20 a lot and still keep my books at hand and do some manual rolls that are out of combat. If I saw a D&D table where nobody had a physical book, character sheet, pencil, paper for notes, and some dice I would be shocked.
Curse's old form was when it was used for addons for WoW and the like. You had a free version and then the premier version or something where it would keep your setting across platforms and could update more than one addon at a time. Being gobbled up by a bigger company has it's pros and cons. It could be spun off and sold off if it's not a profitable as they like or downsized or just removed altogether. Just playing devils advocate and eventually it will go away. Just like TSR is long gone with D&D, but I still have my books!
This thing is a great concept and I can't wait to get all my characters loaded up and on there as a backup and to tinker with. Still needs work as a lot of archetypes aren't showing but it's getting there. I would just like to see a bit lower pricing or a way to get digital copies of the content in PDF format.
I purchased XGtE from my flgs, paid full price because i didn't want to wait for it. I paid full price for Volo's because it was the special cover. Thus your fact is invalid.
Just because I have a book available at the table doesn't mean that anyone uses it. if i had a PDF, then i have to search through the document to find what i wanted. opps, not in this one, now i have to go look in that other one. here at DDB, i click on a link and it takes me right to the entry. Plus, they are working on an app that can be used when not connected. I see the days of physical copies start to go away except for those of us who like to fill our book shelves and those that just want to have a backup copy in physical form. Dice are just too much fun to roll. if we are at a table, then yes i will use physical, otherwise i will use digital when playing online.
yes, PDF's will go away when there are no longer physical books to scan from.
I dont think we old schoolers need all that stuff at the table. I started playing D&D about 30 years ago and i converted to HeroLabs when my group played PathFinder. My setup right now is DnD beyond for character management and books. Dices i roll because i like the feeling and for me thats one aspect of the game i really like. We use miniatures in fights when we use non-permanent pencils and a erasable map on the table, and we use a pc and screen to show maps with FoW. And as it is right now we have a initiative stick, but waiting for it to get digital. So our group is digital and physical. It works for us.
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I'm not stupid. I'm just unlucky when I'm thinking.
I think I'll echo Stormknight's sentiment saying that you would probably be surprised at the number of people making the move to mostly digital. I do enjoy the feel of real dice, and I'm a mini fanatic (who even invested in a 3D printer for dungeon tiles), so there is definitely an appeal for a physical aspect. In fact, the reason I got back into tabletop gaming after a several year hiatus was because I missed the human interaction and cooperation that was missing from online video gaming. That being said, when it comes to rules and notation, anything I can do to streamline that aspect of the game, I welcome. Digital rules, notes, and character sheets have sped up the action of my game immensely. In these discussions, I often say that if you are a more experienced gamer with a thorough knowledge of the rules cover to cover, I can absolutely see how the features of DDB would be arbitrary at your table, but I'm a far from perfect DM, and I would get nothing done without at very least the spell listings on here. That alone has been worth all the money I've spent. Of course, being able to cross-reference monsters as they appear in adventures and having all of the maps and visual cues included in high-res digital formats has been a great bonus as well. Digital definitely isn't for everyone (as nothing is), but a lot of people are getting a great use out of it. More than you likely suspect.
Regarding a PDF, that's simply not what this service offers. I've used this analogy before, but think of D&D Beyond as a taco stand, and a PDF is a hamburger. There's nothing wrong with wanting a hamburger. It's a fine product on its own. But if you go to the taco stand and try to order a burger, or even try to argue with the cashier that they would get more of your business if they sold burgers, everyone standing in line for tacos is going to be kind of annoyed that you're in the way. Currently, there are no Taco Bell hamburgers, just like there are no D&D PDFs. You may want a Taco Bell hamburger, but it's just not in their business model.
This thing is a great concept and I can't wait to get all my characters loaded up and on there as a backup and to tinker with. Still needs work as a lot of archetypes aren't showing but it's getting there.
Like I said, you can pay full price if you like but you don't need to. It's not an invalid fact, it's a fact. Amazon has some content in physical form that is actually cheaper than on Beyond. With a PDF or some other similar format, you can print out a physical copy if you like of whatever pages you normally use. Print out your class pages as a quick reference, or the monster manual of forms you want to use or things to summon. I think most tables now are a hybrid, not all pen and paper and not complete digital. Its all about getting the information you need quickly and easily so you can just enjoy the game (and roll dice, cuz we like to roll dice).
Just sayin it seems a bit too expensive for content in digital form when the physical is pretty close to the same price or in some cases even cheaper.
What content is less expensive on Amazon? I've never seen an example of this.
You can print anything you want from D&D Beyond as well. In fact, monster statblocks were recently updated to be more printer-friendly, so printing is encouraged by the developers if you want.
I think Xanathar's is cheaper, some of the smaller guide stuff. The only thing more expensive are the core books from what I've seen, everything else is right at the same price or a buck or so less.
I don't remember all the archetypes, but its mostly the base ones in character creation (was loading up my Fighter and EK wasn't in the dropdown). And my data is just observation from seeing games being played, being part of games, and reading what other people are saying. Haven't seen or heard of a 100% digital in person game.
I think Xanathar's is cheaper, some of the smaller guide stuff. The only thing more expensive are the core books from what I've seen, everything else is right at the same price or a buck or so less.
I don't remember all the archetypes, but its mostly the base ones in character creation (was loading up my Fighter and EK wasn't in the dropdown). And my data is just observation from seeing games being played, being part of games, and reading what other people are saying. Haven't seen or heard of a 100% digital in person game.
You do not see all the archetypes because they need to be unlocked with a purchase from the Marketplace.
That is interesting. I can't see what the price for XGtE is because I've already purchased it on here, but it may actually be about $1 cheaper on Amazon...
HOWEVER...
The DDB price includes all of the bonus features that could not be included with the physical book. The cross-referencing, character sheet options, and database listing entries. For just the text and pictures (which is all you would get with the physical book), you can purchase the Compendium Content Only for $19.99 (I assume, as that's normally the price). So for a comparable version to the physical book, it is not cheaper on Amazon. It just depends on which features you want.
I think Xanathar's is cheaper, some of the smaller guide stuff. The only thing more expensive are the core books from what I've seen, everything else is right at the same price or a buck or so less.
I don't remember all the archetypes, but its mostly the base ones in character creation (was loading up my Fighter and EK wasn't in the dropdown). And my data is just observation from seeing games being played, being part of games, and reading what other people are saying. Haven't seen or heard of a 100% digital in person game.
You do not see all the archetypes because they need to be unlocked with a purchase from the Marketplace.
Not talking about all, just the base ones. EK, Champion, and battle master aren't from extra content.
Eldritch Knight and Battle Master are from the Player's Handbook.
Ah, that would explain it. I thought they would give you at least regular content in the PHB but I guess not. I'll be sticking with Forged Anvil for character sheets. Good luck all and enjoy!
Please be aware that, unless officially licensed, any application or character sheet that carries information about classes outside of the SRD/Basic Rules is doing so in contravention of copyright law and may be contacted by Wizards of the Coast legal department.
That sounds exactly like what I said plus adding in the element of the sale.
Except not, because what you are saying is either A) an irrelevant change because you are paying the licensing cost directly to WotC instead of paying it to Curse who then pays it WotC and you end up out the same amount of money and with the same end result of usable goods, or B) absolutely never going to work because you want Curse to pay the licensing cost to WotC - or WotC to not be paid any licensing fees - and neither company to take any money from you to cover the licensing cost.
You might as well be asking for WotC to keep including art in the books but refuse to pay any of the artists for the rights to use their works for all the sense you are making.
But you didn't change anything I said you just added onto it. I still don't see how "designs do not exist independently of the time and effort spent by whoever is building from them" can be true. The license is given by an IP owner to a non-IP owner to allow what the IP would normally restrict. In this case WotC's IP on their content protects copy, distribution and sale. None of those things are done by the consumer. The only way the consumer is involved is they are recipient of the sale. The IP itself creates a barrier around the content making it exist separately.
Are you saying that that sentence is true from the perspective of the consumer? I could see that, or at least that it should be irrelevant to the consumer. Unless the consumer gets confused by the pricing strategy asking himself "why do I have to pay for this again", goes on a forum to read a complicated explanation, gets way to involved with the details and is now jaded with the whole franchise. The separation between design & implementation is definite from the perspective of the designer and the implementer.
Please be aware that, unless officially licensed, any application or character sheet that carries information about classes outside of the SRD/Basic Rules is doing so in contravention of copyright law and may be contacted by Wizards of the Coast legal department.
Aware! Doubt they really care since they give away character sheet PDF's for free so no revenue lost. Don't get me wrong, this app looks great but it's not worth $350 to me on top of what I've already spent. To each his own, just have fun and do whatever blows your hair back.
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D&D Beyond FoundersPun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
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PDF's may be old tech, but they are something that won't go away if I save it and not reliant on an internet connection. Curse already went away in it's old form and is now part of Twitch so the likelihood of it going away again isn't far fetched. With pricing, you said it yourself, cheaper on Amazon. If you want to pay more to support your local gaming store (mine isn't very local at all) then by all means, do so. At your table, you have physical books and dice, proving my point.
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InsidersA dwarf with a canoe on his back? What could go wrong?
Hard drives go bad after several years. Files become corrupted. Also, how many 15-20 year old files do you still actively use? Very few people hold on to data for that long.
I'm not familiar with Curse's "old form", but being under a larger company like Twitch (and subsequently Amazon) would give it more stability than it likely used to have. They also have a working and successful business model. Businesses that are doing well don't just pack up and go away on a whim because they feel like it. This is a bad argument.
My point about brick and mortar stores is that lots of people do pay those prices. I pre-ordered TftYP from Amazon, and was frustrated that most of my friends had it in their hands several weeks before mine was delivered (Amazon doesn't even ship until the release date, meaning even with Prime, that's 2 days later). So the benefit isn't even necessarily supporting a FLGS, as major book retailers also carry the physical books at MSRP. There's nothing wrong with buying from Amazon and saving some money IMO, but you can't say that everyone does that. It's just not true.
I have physical books, but like I said, they never get used. Dice have nothing to do with D&D Beyond. Last time I checked, PDFs don't include dice roller applications either, so I'm not sure I get your point. Also, I do know several people who do use dice roller apps at the table. You made the claim that no one would switch to digital, and again, that is not a true statement.
Should have been more clear in the no one comment, I mean a very very small percentage. Kinda like NOBODY likes PT Cruisers when I'm sure there is some mouth breather out there that loves that steaming pile of crap lol. We old schoolers will always want physical copies of things and real dice. I play on Roll20 a lot and still keep my books at hand and do some manual rolls that are out of combat. If I saw a D&D table where nobody had a physical book, character sheet, pencil, paper for notes, and some dice I would be shocked.
Curse's old form was when it was used for addons for WoW and the like. You had a free version and then the premier version or something where it would keep your setting across platforms and could update more than one addon at a time. Being gobbled up by a bigger company has it's pros and cons. It could be spun off and sold off if it's not a profitable as they like or downsized or just removed altogether. Just playing devils advocate and eventually it will go away. Just like TSR is long gone with D&D, but I still have my books!
This thing is a great concept and I can't wait to get all my characters loaded up and on there as a backup and to tinker with. Still needs work as a lot of archetypes aren't showing but it's getting there. I would just like to see a bit lower pricing or a way to get digital copies of the content in PDF format.
I purchased XGtE from my flgs, paid full price because i didn't want to wait for it. I paid full price for Volo's because it was the special cover. Thus your fact is invalid.
Just because I have a book available at the table doesn't mean that anyone uses it. if i had a PDF, then i have to search through the document to find what i wanted. opps, not in this one, now i have to go look in that other one. here at DDB, i click on a link and it takes me right to the entry. Plus, they are working on an app that can be used when not connected. I see the days of physical copies start to go away except for those of us who like to fill our book shelves and those that just want to have a backup copy in physical form. Dice are just too much fun to roll. if we are at a table, then yes i will use physical, otherwise i will use digital when playing online.
yes, PDF's will go away when there are no longer physical books to scan from.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I'm not stupid. I'm just unlucky when I'm thinking.
I think I'll echo Stormknight's sentiment saying that you would probably be surprised at the number of people making the move to mostly digital. I do enjoy the feel of real dice, and I'm a mini fanatic (who even invested in a 3D printer for dungeon tiles), so there is definitely an appeal for a physical aspect. In fact, the reason I got back into tabletop gaming after a several year hiatus was because I missed the human interaction and cooperation that was missing from online video gaming. That being said, when it comes to rules and notation, anything I can do to streamline that aspect of the game, I welcome. Digital rules, notes, and character sheets have sped up the action of my game immensely. In these discussions, I often say that if you are a more experienced gamer with a thorough knowledge of the rules cover to cover, I can absolutely see how the features of DDB would be arbitrary at your table, but I'm a far from perfect DM, and I would get nothing done without at very least the spell listings on here. That alone has been worth all the money I've spent. Of course, being able to cross-reference monsters as they appear in adventures and having all of the maps and visual cues included in high-res digital formats has been a great bonus as well. Digital definitely isn't for everyone (as nothing is), but a lot of people are getting a great use out of it. More than you likely suspect.
Regarding a PDF, that's simply not what this service offers. I've used this analogy before, but think of D&D Beyond as a taco stand, and a PDF is a hamburger. There's nothing wrong with wanting a hamburger. It's a fine product on its own. But if you go to the taco stand and try to order a burger, or even try to argue with the cashier that they would get more of your business if they sold burgers, everyone standing in line for tacos is going to be kind of annoyed that you're in the way. Currently, there are no Taco Bell hamburgers, just like there are no D&D PDFs. You may want a Taco Bell hamburger, but it's just not in their business model.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
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Like I said, you can pay full price if you like but you don't need to. It's not an invalid fact, it's a fact. Amazon has some content in physical form that is actually cheaper than on Beyond. With a PDF or some other similar format, you can print out a physical copy if you like of whatever pages you normally use. Print out your class pages as a quick reference, or the monster manual of forms you want to use or things to summon. I think most tables now are a hybrid, not all pen and paper and not complete digital. Its all about getting the information you need quickly and easily so you can just enjoy the game (and roll dice, cuz we like to roll dice).
Just sayin it seems a bit too expensive for content in digital form when the physical is pretty close to the same price or in some cases even cheaper.
What content is less expensive on Amazon? I've never seen an example of this.
You can print anything you want from D&D Beyond as well. In fact, monster statblocks were recently updated to be more printer-friendly, so printing is encouraged by the developers if you want.
I think Xanathar's is cheaper, some of the smaller guide stuff. The only thing more expensive are the core books from what I've seen, everything else is right at the same price or a buck or so less.
I don't remember all the archetypes, but its mostly the base ones in character creation (was loading up my Fighter and EK wasn't in the dropdown). And my data is just observation from seeing games being played, being part of games, and reading what other people are saying. Haven't seen or heard of a 100% digital in person game.
That is interesting. I can't see what the price for XGtE is because I've already purchased it on here, but it may actually be about $1 cheaper on Amazon...
HOWEVER...
The DDB price includes all of the bonus features that could not be included with the physical book. The cross-referencing, character sheet options, and database listing entries. For just the text and pictures (which is all you would get with the physical book), you can purchase the Compendium Content Only for $19.99 (I assume, as that's normally the price). So for a comparable version to the physical book, it is not cheaper on Amazon. It just depends on which features you want.
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D&D Beyond FoundersThe 5th edition D&D Basic Rules only include the Champion archetype.
Eldritch Knight and Battle Master are from the Player's Handbook.
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
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D&D Beyond FoundersPlease be aware that, unless officially licensed, any application or character sheet that carries information about classes outside of the SRD/Basic Rules is doing so in contravention of copyright law and may be contacted by Wizards of the Coast legal department.
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊