Whatever. You're so desperate to be right, so go ahead. Have total authority over all things artificer. I'd done arguing with someone with such a narrow mind.
Kind of funny. The person who wants to restrict this ability is playing the strawman saying that we have a narrow mind for playing the ability RAW, where it is more open.
We're not desperate to be right, @TwoFaceTony, we just are doing what you are, arguing our opinion of this argument. The difference is, we're not calling people narrow minded or bad people for ruling it this way.
I'm willing to continue discuss this if you like, but I haven't done anything to provoke personal attacks from you, so please keep it civil.
Sincerely, me.
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You want to explain what that means at all? Besides that not even counting as a comeback, it's not on topic or civil, so please, elaborate how you feel that you've been wronged by use explaining RAW and what we interpret as RAI.
You may complain about use "silencing" your opinion, but simply, we just don't agree with your interpretation of RAI. People expressing their opinions on a thread isn't silencing anyone, it's just us expressing our opinions in a different way from you. Please, stop doing these one-liners that give you no credibility at all and act maturely if you want to participate in this discussion, please.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
You want to explain what that means at all? Besides that not even counting as a comeback, it's not on topic or civil, so please, elaborate how you feel that you've been wronged by use explaining RAW and what we interpret as RAI.
You may complain about use "silencing" your opinion, but simply, we just don't agree with your interpretation of RAI. People expressing their opinions on a thread isn't silencing anyone, it's just us expressing our opinions in a different way from you. Please, stop doing these one-liners that give you no credibility at all and act maturely if you want to participate in this discussion, please.
There's no point Levi, he's just going to respond in similar fashions. Not sure what happened but all their posts but these last two from them on this thread are gone. Maybe they deleted them. But their stance on this thread has been removed. Maybe they believes you guys "silenced" them or they're trying to frame it that way since their posts are gone.
I'm glad you've established that you know what a strawman argument is, because nobody was arguing that proficiency in carpenter's tools should make an Artificer proficient in Land Vehicles.
People were only stating that because they're Artificers, their training in Land Vehicles counts for more.
Except that I never said that. However, multiple people claimed that being able to build something automatically makes you better at using it than someone who has trained in its use. Which it doesn't.
Remember, tools are some stuff for making/fabricating things, right ??? Then, what if...... tools could be used as weapons ??
Improvised weapons skill ??? mehhh, who needs that when I'm expert with tools ???
There's already rules for using improvised weapons, and at least one feat in the latest UA includes improvised weaponry. You don't need new rules or skills. And those rules don't allow you to use Expertise bonus with attacking like that.
Well my question for tool expertise is, an artificer uses its tools to cast spells, and you need to be proficient in the tool to cast spells (make objects or similar to use the spell) so if someone have expertise in a tool that they are using for casting spells would that entail spell attack and spell save dc having double proficiency?
Well my question for tool expertise is, an artificer uses its tools to cast spells, and you need to be proficient in the tool to cast spells (make objects or similar to use the spell) so if someone have expertise in a tool that they are using for casting spells would that entail spell attack and spell save dc having double proficiency?
Nope, artificers only get expertise on ability checks that use a tool.
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Bark side up, bark side down, it really, truly does not matter.
Isn't spell casting ability an ability check? Besides artificers use a tool for their spell casting to break it down. Wizards read from their spell book, Sorcerers channel magic from themselves, Warlocks go through their patron, Clerics pray to their god, Druids commune with nature, and artificers make objects with tools, to cast spells. So if they are using tools as a way to cast spells wouldn't that equate to them having better proficiency if they have expertise in it.
Fundamentally, there are three types of rolls: Attack Rolls, Ability Checks (which includes tools and skills), and Saving Throws. Attacks never benefit from Expertise, and neither do Saves.
If you're making a spell attack roll, such as by casting Firebolt, that's a type of Attack using your spellcasting ability instead of Strength or Dexterity. If you're casting Fireball, that spell provokes a Saving Throw on part of your enemy. These two are the vast majority of spell-based rolls you will make, and neither will ever benefit from Expertise.
Some spells, specifically Dispel Magic and Counterspell, call for an ability check using your Spellcasting ability - in this case, these spells benefits from Guidance and Jack of All Trades, but you don't get to add in Proficiency Bonus (baring Abjuration Wizards, who have an ability to do so). Certainly, you do not get to add in Expertise above and beyond that for a raw Ability check that doesn't give Proficiency Bonus. As far as I know, those are the only two spells that call for an ability check on the part of the caster.
So if they are using tools as a way to cast spells wouldn't that equate to them having better proficiency if they have expertise in it.
Wizards with Expertise in Arcana get no bonus to their spellcasting. Neither do Bards with Expertise in Perform or their musical instrument.
Now here's something I'm curious about........artificers use tools as their spell casting focus. Does that mean the spell check dispell magic benefits from the tool expertise, being it's a skill check and it does requires tools in order to cast it?
Now here's something I'm curious about........artificers use tools as their spell casting focus. Does that mean the spell check dispell magic benefits from the tool expertise, being it's a skill check and it does requires tools in order to cast it?
That doesn't count as an ability check made with the tools, even if you use your tools as a spellcasting focus. That's a check made for a spell, so it would not benefit from Tool Expertise.
It does require tools or an infused item to cast, as all artificers need that to cast any artificer spell.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Now here's something I'm curious about........artificers use tools as their spell casting focus. Does that mean the spell check dispell magic benefits from the tool expertise, being it's a skill check and it does requires tools in order to cast it?
Tool Expertise applies to ability checks that use your proficiency with a tool. The ability check in dispel magic does not use your proficiency bonus, so even if it did apply 2x0 is still 0.
Playing an Artificer ATM and I plan on dipping into Rogue (Phantom) at some point. Why? Whispers of the Dead. Access to All tools (and skills) proficiency. On a Class that gets Expertise and can make all tools magically.
Playing an Artificer ATM and I plan on dipping into Rogue (Phantom) at some point. Why? Whispers of the Dead. Access to All tools (and skills) proficiency. On a Class that gets Expertise and can make all tools magically.
that is a serious investment in levels for such a tame benefit, yes it is a really nice combo but how useful will you find cunning action, expertise and sneak attack? like if you were already using finesse or ranged weapons and you wanna gain greater mobillity and flexibillity in combat i can see it but i donno
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Playing an Artificer ATM and I plan on dipping into Rogue (Phantom) at some point. Why? Whispers of the Dead. Access to All tools (and skills) proficiency. On a Class that gets Expertise and can make all tools magically.
that is a serious investment in levels for such a tame benefit, yes it is a really nice combo but how useful will you find cunning action, expertise and sneak attack? like if you were already using finesse or ranged weapons and you wanna gain greater mobillity and flexibillity in combat i can see it but i donno
It is but it also does fit the character. Safe cracker/jewel thief Alchemist.
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Kind of funny. The person who wants to restrict this ability is playing the strawman saying that we have a narrow mind for playing the ability RAW, where it is more open.
We're not desperate to be right, @TwoFaceTony, we just are doing what you are, arguing our opinion of this argument. The difference is, we're not calling people narrow minded or bad people for ruling it this way.
I'm willing to continue discuss this if you like, but I haven't done anything to provoke personal attacks from you, so please keep it civil.
Sincerely, me.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You keep telling yourself that.
How to add tooltips on dndbeyond
You want to explain what that means at all? Besides that not even counting as a comeback, it's not on topic or civil, so please, elaborate how you feel that you've been wronged by use explaining RAW and what we interpret as RAI.
You may complain about use "silencing" your opinion, but simply, we just don't agree with your interpretation of RAI. People expressing their opinions on a thread isn't silencing anyone, it's just us expressing our opinions in a different way from you. Please, stop doing these one-liners that give you no credibility at all and act maturely if you want to participate in this discussion, please.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
There's no point Levi, he's just going to respond in similar fashions. Not sure what happened but all their posts but these last two from them on this thread are gone. Maybe they deleted them. But their stance on this thread has been removed. Maybe they believes you guys "silenced" them or they're trying to frame it that way since their posts are gone.
Remember, tools are some stuff for making/fabricating things, right ??? Then, what if...... tools could be used as weapons ??
Improvised weapons skill ??? mehhh, who needs that when I'm expert with tools ???
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
tool expertise specifically applies to ability checks, so no i do not think that could work
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Except that I never said that. However, multiple people claimed that being able to build something automatically makes you better at using it than someone who has trained in its use. Which it doesn't.
Even if the DM would allow, say a carpenter's hammer to be used as a tool it still isn't being used as a tool so the tool exptertise wouldn't apply.
There's already rules for using improvised weapons, and at least one feat in the latest UA includes improvised weaponry. You don't need new rules or skills. And those rules don't allow you to use Expertise bonus with attacking like that.
Well my question for tool expertise is, an artificer uses its tools to cast spells, and you need to be proficient in the tool to cast spells (make objects or similar to use the spell) so if someone have expertise in a tool that they are using for casting spells would that entail spell attack and spell save dc having double proficiency?
Nope, artificers only get expertise on ability checks that use a tool.
Bark side up, bark side down, it really, truly does not matter.
looking back at these posts, i find that i have managed to spell artificer as "atrificer" at least twice. How thrilling.
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Isn't spell casting ability an ability check? Besides artificers use a tool for their spell casting to break it down. Wizards read from their spell book, Sorcerers channel magic from themselves, Warlocks go through their patron, Clerics pray to their god, Druids commune with nature, and artificers make objects with tools, to cast spells. So if they are using tools as a way to cast spells wouldn't that equate to them having better proficiency if they have expertise in it.
No.
Fundamentally, there are three types of rolls: Attack Rolls, Ability Checks (which includes tools and skills), and Saving Throws. Attacks never benefit from Expertise, and neither do Saves.
If you're making a spell attack roll, such as by casting Firebolt, that's a type of Attack using your spellcasting ability instead of Strength or Dexterity. If you're casting Fireball, that spell provokes a Saving Throw on part of your enemy. These two are the vast majority of spell-based rolls you will make, and neither will ever benefit from Expertise.
Some spells, specifically Dispel Magic and Counterspell, call for an ability check using your Spellcasting ability - in this case, these spells benefits from Guidance and Jack of All Trades, but you don't get to add in Proficiency Bonus (baring Abjuration Wizards, who have an ability to do so). Certainly, you do not get to add in Expertise above and beyond that for a raw Ability check that doesn't give Proficiency Bonus. As far as I know, those are the only two spells that call for an ability check on the part of the caster.
Wizards with Expertise in Arcana get no bonus to their spellcasting. Neither do Bards with Expertise in Perform or their musical instrument.
Now here's something I'm curious about........artificers use tools as their spell casting focus. Does that mean the spell check dispell magic benefits from the tool expertise, being it's a skill check and it does requires tools in order to cast it?
That doesn't count as an ability check made with the tools, even if you use your tools as a spellcasting focus. That's a check made for a spell, so it would not benefit from Tool Expertise.
It does require tools or an infused item to cast, as all artificers need that to cast any artificer spell.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Tool Expertise applies to ability checks that use your proficiency with a tool. The ability check in dispel magic does not use your proficiency bonus, so even if it did apply 2x0 is still 0.
Playing an Artificer ATM and I plan on dipping into Rogue (Phantom) at some point. Why? Whispers of the Dead. Access to All tools (and skills) proficiency. On a Class that gets Expertise and can make all tools magically.
that is a serious investment in levels for such a tame benefit, yes it is a really nice combo but how useful will you find cunning action, expertise and sneak attack? like if you were already using finesse or ranged weapons and you wanna gain greater mobillity and flexibillity in combat i can see it but i donno
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
It is but it also does fit the character. Safe cracker/jewel thief Alchemist.