Just wondering what thoughts about this were. If you want my opinion, I'd say Battlerager is worst, and Berserker is second.
Battlerager: Forces you to wear armor, and all subclass damaging features do, like, 4 piercing damage a round. Terrible.
Berserker: Frenzy is actually largely fine, just save it for the toughest battle of the day. Other features are also helpful, just not as good as other subclasses.
Battlerager is underwhelming, but nothing about its features can actively harm your character. And it’s features are at least theoretically on par with other subclasses in terms of damage.
Berserker is worse for me. The 6th level ability is good, but Frenzy is just so limited and the 10th level ability is sad.
Battlerager offers a much less limited bonus action attack than Berserker does. Ultimately, Mindless Rage is the best feature between the two subclasses, which makes it close. I still say Berserker is slightly worse
Yes, it is harmful, because the Spiked Armor limits your character to an AC of 16 for their whole life, where others' ACs increase over time! So, you would be better off, not making use of that 1d4 bonus action attack, which you could get via Polearm Master anyway. Reckless Abandon is bad, because it grants you Temp HP for being attacked with advantage (not when you enter your rage, score a crit or kill an enemy!), Battlerager Charge is useless, because you are a front line fighter anyway and don't really need to dash, and Spiked Resolution is an insult of a capstone! So, this subclass isn't any better than a Barbarian with no subclass and PM. Actually, any other subclass with PM (just reflavor the butt-end-attack to spiked armor), or one level of fighter or Fighting Initiate for the Unarmed Fighting style and Tavern Brawler would make a way better Battlerager.
A battlerager can also use a shield for an AC of 18, and with enchanted armor they can have as high an ac as any barb or better.
That does mean forgoing heavy weapons, but you basically get a bonus action dagger attack each round you rage.
If we bring in feats and minmaxing, it’s never going to be a top tier class. But the worst any of its features do is be less useful, rather than actively being bad. There are no traps like Frenzy that can get the character hamstrung.
Frenzy is good... used sparingly. It still allows you to deal some ridiculous damage while remaining unarmored with 3 attacks per round. Adding a +5 strength modifier, which you are bound to have, you can deal around 34.5 damage per round, assuming your attacks hit. Adding mindless rage (extremely helpful defensive feature) makes you stronger, and intimidating presence lets you frighten enemies. What do battleragers get at 6th (i think) and 10th (i think) levels? Tools for running away and giving enemies advantage. Great, especially since you're a barbarian. At 14th level berserkers get retribution, which is amazing, and battleragers...
they get this:
Starting at 14th level, when a creature within 5 feet of you hits you with a melee attack, the attacker takes 3 piercing damage if you are raging, aren’t incapacitated, and are wearing spiked armor.
I recently played as a battlerager (or at least 3 levels of battlerager as part of a multiclass). Its kit could definitely use some touch ups, which I attempted to do as part of this thread if anyone is interested.
That being said, the spiked armor (even in the base SCAG version) does give a fairly unique ability. It allows you to make a bonus action attack with the spikes. Now, a bonus action attack in and of itself is not particularly unique. There are dozens of similar abilities like the Polearm Master feat, the War Priest feature for War Domain Clerics, or even just base Two Weapon Fighting.
What sets the battlerager's bonus action attack apart is that it does not require you to take the Attack action before making the bonus action attack. This opens up the barbarian to trying unique playstyles or tactics during a fight. Usually, a raging barbarian needs to be taking the Attack action every single turn, not only because of the great damage output but because its the best way to ensure their rage does not end early if the enemies stop attacking them for some reason.
The battlerager's unique bonus action attack option allows the barbarian to use their Action for other things while still having an attack available to keep their rage up. You could drink a healing potion, which goes a long way with your resistances from raging. You could take the Dodge action if you think you are about to be hammered with attacks. You could interact with some part of the environment, like a lever or something else.
Now, Im hyping it up a bit. This ability is by no means game breaking or incredible. Its situational. But it is, in my opinion, a hidden gem that offers a versatility that is not immediately apparent on paper.
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I think this gets to the crux of the matter: all of the battlerager abilities are weak, especially from a min-maxing point of view, but none of them are an active detriment. Now Im kind of interested in building some kind of support battlerager for the lols. Maybe a 3 level dip at least.
Berzerker has a strong level 3 ability in theory, but it can really only be used for one combat a day without stacking punishments. And it has 2 really good abilities at 6 and 14, but its the level 3 ability that is going to be used for most of the campaign.
Something else I'll just add is that people tend to overestimate the Berzerker's mindless rage. If an enemy charms your Berzerker before you rage and basically tells you to sit out the battle, you can't really rage to get out of it when you specifically know that would countermand the order. There are also mind control spells and abilities like Suggestion that do not actually use the charmed condition. It'd be up to the DM to decide if its implied that such abilities should be disrupted by Mindless Rage.
I think this gets to the crux of the matter: all of the battlerager abilities are weak, especially from a min-maxing point of view, but none of them are an active detriment. Now Im kind of interested in building some kind of support battlerager for the lols. Maybe a 3 level dip at least.
Berzerker has a strong level 3 ability in theory, but it can really only be used for one combat a day without stacking punishments. And it has 2 really good abilities at 6 and 14, but its the level 3 ability that is going to be used for most of the campaign.
Something else I'll just add is that people tend to overestimate the Berzerker's mindless rage. If an enemy charms your Berzerker before you rage and basically tells you to sit out the battle, you can't really rage to get out of it when you specifically know that would countermand the order. There are also mind control spells and abilities like Suggestion that do not actually use the charmed condition. It'd be up to the DM to decide if its implied that such abilities should be disrupted by Mindless Rage.
But depending on the type of campaign you’re doing-for example, by brother is playing a berserker in a caveman campaign, and I rarely throw more than two fights per day at them-the extra attack Ability can be awesome. Especially if you use the new exhaustion rules released in the playtests of 1dnd.
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If I haven’t offended you, don’t worry. I’m sure I’ll get to you eventually.
Yeah, the campaign type can really make some classes and subclasses situationally OP. Most games I've played have only been 2-3 hour sessions with only one or two fights. And in that case, the Bezerker is crazy strong.
But the game designers said they made the classes and subclasses around the idea that groups would dedicate enough time for a session with 6-8 small fights and 2 big fights, and still have roleplay involved and only one long rest per session. They also planned for feats to be an optional rule. And when we look at it that way, having a bonus action dagger attack for 2-5 fights a day actually dishes out more overall damage than having a 3rd full attack for just one fight a session.
I think this gets to the crux of the matter: all of the battlerager abilities are weak, especially from a min-maxing point of view, but none of them are an active detriment. Now Im kind of interested in building some kind of support battlerager for the lols. Maybe a 3 level dip at least.
I could see a support Battlerager that focuses on grappling enemies to restrict their movement for the rest of the team. Pick up the unarmed fighting style from either a feat or Fighter multiclass, and then can 1) Grapple the target, dealing 3 damage, 2) Deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage at the start of each of your turns from your fighting style 3) Deal 1d4+Str+Rage damage as a bonus action using your armor spikes. Your action is still free, so you could either wail on them or so can Dash to drag enemies closer to your other front-line fighters.
Heck, since the spikes dont require a free hand you could potentially grapple up to 2 creatures during combat and move them around the battlefield while still attacking at least one of them each round with your spikes to maintain rage. The Unarmed Fighting would also help here since if your hands are occupied you could still kick or headbutt your grappled targets
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Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Re-imagining unpopular subclasses as part of FIFY WotC. Let us know what you think of our changes!
I think a simple fix to a lot of the barbarians problems across the board would be a reduction in bonus action clog from rage and subclass abilities.
The totem warrior, berserker, and battle rager have bonus action options that prevent them from being used the first round that they’re activated.
tashas instinctive pounce optional feature should be replicated in part for this to happen.
”As part of the bonus action you take to enter your rage, you can…”
but also add the piece from the storm herald: “and you can activate the effect again on each of your turns as a bonus action.”
some of the efficacy of a barbarian can be boosted by two weapon rules from the play test. The modifier isn’t added but the rage bonus would be, so long as strength is used. It also boosts those subclass options with bonus actions even further.
I like the battle ranger more than it seems other people do, though I don’t like the dwarf restriction. I think it’s fairly easy for a DM to enhance the armor the subclass seems to focus around. Give adamantine, have armor bonus apply as weapon bonus, increase the damage die, increase the temporary hitpoints gained from attacking recklessly.
I definitely think the ancestral guardian is incredible.
my vote for worst is berserker as of now but the play test seems to be improving it quite a bit.
my next worst is the storm herald. I don’t like the potential for friendly fire, weak though it may be. The options seem under tuned to me as well, even by barbarian standards.
Depends on what you mean by "worst", if all you care about is damage then Battlerager's features are somewhat underpowered (though homebrewing to allow +1, +2 and +3 spiked armor to apply to them helps a lot). A lot of people hate on Berserker but having a third full attack can extremely strong in the right circumstances; a lot of people complain about the exhaustion but this is heavily campaign dependent as in a campaign that considers travel time, downtime etc. it's a lot less of a problem, IMO the Berserker being somewhat strategic in when you actually choose to use frenzied rage is a big part of its appeal. But to me they're both good because they're very characterful and the mechanics encouraging their theme well.
Personally for me the "worst" sub-class is the Zealot, because I just don't like how it functions; getting added damage with no trade-off is simply boring, and being unkillable (but only sort of) is more of a pain in the ass than interesting and so-on. It's fine, and you can absolutely build cool characters with it, but it's the least appealing of the sub-classes to me.
Storm Herald I like though some options definitely could use some rebalancing; as with most things people complain about they're not as underpowered as they can seem, but the fire aura for example is actually a fair amount of damage when correctly used (hitting multiple enemies) but again it's going to be quite campaign dependent whether you face enough hordes to make it properly useful.
I should note i completely respect your opinion. How is zealot the worst? "Being unkillable sort of" How is that a pain in the ass? I don't follow friend. You get psuedo immortality that even gets buffed the next level
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"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
I should note i completely respect your opinion. How is zealot the worst? "Being unkillable sort of" How is that a pain in the ass? I don't follow friend. You get psuedo immortality that even gets buffed the next level
I think they mean it's not fun to play a character who is more or less unkillable, because it takes the danger out of the game.
Just wondering what thoughts about this were. If you want my opinion, I'd say Battlerager is worst, and Berserker is second.
Battlerager: Forces you to wear armor, and all subclass damaging features do, like, 4 piercing damage a round. Terrible.
Berserker: Frenzy is actually largely fine, just save it for the toughest battle of the day. Other features are also helpful, just not as good as other subclasses.
DMing:
The Cataclysm Stadium
Rise of the White Mask
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian.
Battlerager is underwhelming, but nothing about its features can actively harm your character. And it’s features are at least theoretically on par with other subclasses in terms of damage.
Berserker is worse for me. The 6th level ability is good, but Frenzy is just so limited and the 10th level ability is sad.
Battlerager offers a much less limited bonus action attack than Berserker does. Ultimately, Mindless Rage is the best feature between the two subclasses, which makes it close. I still say Berserker is slightly worse
The new 1dnd exhaustion rules do make it a lot better.
If I haven’t offended you, don’t worry. I’m sure I’ll get to you eventually.
Yes, it is harmful, because the Spiked Armor limits your character to an AC of 16 for their whole life, where others' ACs increase over time! So, you would be better off, not making use of that 1d4 bonus action attack, which you could get via Polearm Master anyway. Reckless Abandon is bad, because it grants you Temp HP for being attacked with advantage (not when you enter your rage, score a crit or kill an enemy!), Battlerager Charge is useless, because you are a front line fighter anyway and don't really need to dash, and Spiked Resolution is an insult of a capstone! So, this subclass isn't any better than a Barbarian with no subclass and PM.
Actually, any other subclass with PM (just reflavor the butt-end-attack to spiked armor), or one level of fighter or Fighting Initiate for the Unarmed Fighting style and Tavern Brawler would make a way better Battlerager.
A battlerager can also use a shield for an AC of 18, and with enchanted armor they can have as high an ac as any barb or better.
That does mean forgoing heavy weapons, but you basically get a bonus action dagger attack each round you rage.
If we bring in feats and minmaxing, it’s never going to be a top tier class. But the worst any of its features do is be less useful, rather than actively being bad. There are no traps like Frenzy that can get the character hamstrung.
Frenzy is good... used sparingly. It still allows you to deal some ridiculous damage while remaining unarmored with 3 attacks per round. Adding a +5 strength modifier, which you are bound to have, you can deal around 34.5 damage per round, assuming your attacks hit. Adding mindless rage (extremely helpful defensive feature) makes you stronger, and intimidating presence lets you frighten enemies. What do battleragers get at 6th (i think) and 10th (i think) levels? Tools for running away and giving enemies advantage. Great, especially since you're a barbarian. At 14th level berserkers get retribution, which is amazing, and battleragers...
they get this:
Starting at 14th level, when a creature within 5 feet of you hits you with a melee attack, the attacker takes 3 piercing damage if you are raging, aren’t incapacitated, and are wearing spiked armor.
DMing:
The Cataclysm Stadium
Rise of the White Mask
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian.
Battlerager is no good
sticking out ur gyat for the rizzler
PM me the word TOMATO🍅
I recently played as a battlerager (or at least 3 levels of battlerager as part of a multiclass). Its kit could definitely use some touch ups, which I attempted to do as part of this thread if anyone is interested.
That being said, the spiked armor (even in the base SCAG version) does give a fairly unique ability. It allows you to make a bonus action attack with the spikes. Now, a bonus action attack in and of itself is not particularly unique. There are dozens of similar abilities like the Polearm Master feat, the War Priest feature for War Domain Clerics, or even just base Two Weapon Fighting.
What sets the battlerager's bonus action attack apart is that it does not require you to take the Attack action before making the bonus action attack. This opens up the barbarian to trying unique playstyles or tactics during a fight. Usually, a raging barbarian needs to be taking the Attack action every single turn, not only because of the great damage output but because its the best way to ensure their rage does not end early if the enemies stop attacking them for some reason.
The battlerager's unique bonus action attack option allows the barbarian to use their Action for other things while still having an attack available to keep their rage up. You could drink a healing potion, which goes a long way with your resistances from raging. You could take the Dodge action if you think you are about to be hammered with attacks. You could interact with some part of the environment, like a lever or something else.
Now, Im hyping it up a bit. This ability is by no means game breaking or incredible. Its situational. But it is, in my opinion, a hidden gem that offers a versatility that is not immediately apparent on paper.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Re-imagining unpopular subclasses as part of FIFY WotC. Let us know what you think of our changes!
I think this gets to the crux of the matter: all of the battlerager abilities are weak, especially from a min-maxing point of view, but none of them are an active detriment. Now Im kind of interested in building some kind of support battlerager for the lols. Maybe a 3 level dip at least.
Berzerker has a strong level 3 ability in theory, but it can really only be used for one combat a day without stacking punishments. And it has 2 really good abilities at 6 and 14, but its the level 3 ability that is going to be used for most of the campaign.
Something else I'll just add is that people tend to overestimate the Berzerker's mindless rage. If an enemy charms your Berzerker before you rage and basically tells you to sit out the battle, you can't really rage to get out of it when you specifically know that would countermand the order. There are also mind control spells and abilities like Suggestion that do not actually use the charmed condition. It'd be up to the DM to decide if its implied that such abilities should be disrupted by Mindless Rage.
But depending on the type of campaign you’re doing-for example, by brother is playing a berserker in a caveman campaign, and I rarely throw more than two fights per day at them-the extra attack Ability can be awesome. Especially if you use the new exhaustion rules released in the playtests of 1dnd.
If I haven’t offended you, don’t worry. I’m sure I’ll get to you eventually.
Yeah, the campaign type can really make some classes and subclasses situationally OP. Most games I've played have only been 2-3 hour sessions with only one or two fights. And in that case, the Bezerker is crazy strong.
But the game designers said they made the classes and subclasses around the idea that groups would dedicate enough time for a session with 6-8 small fights and 2 big fights, and still have roleplay involved and only one long rest per session. They also planned for feats to be an optional rule. And when we look at it that way, having a bonus action dagger attack for 2-5 fights a day actually dishes out more overall damage than having a 3rd full attack for just one fight a session.
I could see a support Battlerager that focuses on grappling enemies to restrict their movement for the rest of the team. Pick up the unarmed fighting style from either a feat or Fighter multiclass, and then can 1) Grapple the target, dealing 3 damage, 2) Deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage at the start of each of your turns from your fighting style 3) Deal 1d4+Str+Rage damage as a bonus action using your armor spikes. Your action is still free, so you could either wail on them or so can Dash to drag enemies closer to your other front-line fighters.
Heck, since the spikes dont require a free hand you could potentially grapple up to 2 creatures during combat and move them around the battlefield while still attacking at least one of them each round with your spikes to maintain rage. The Unarmed Fighting would also help here since if your hands are occupied you could still kick or headbutt your grappled targets
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Re-imagining unpopular subclasses as part of FIFY WotC. Let us know what you think of our changes!
I think a simple fix to a lot of the barbarians problems across the board would be a reduction in bonus action clog from rage and subclass abilities.
The totem warrior, berserker, and battle rager have bonus action options that prevent them from being used the first round that they’re activated.
tashas instinctive pounce optional feature should be replicated in part for this to happen.
”As part of the bonus action you take to enter your rage, you can…”
but also add the piece from the storm herald:
“and you can activate the effect again on each of your turns as a bonus action.”
some of the efficacy of a barbarian can be boosted by two weapon rules from the play test. The modifier isn’t added but the rage bonus would be, so long as strength is used. It also boosts those subclass options with bonus actions even further.
I like the battle ranger more than it seems other people do, though I don’t like the dwarf restriction. I think it’s fairly easy for a DM to enhance the armor the subclass seems to focus around. Give adamantine, have armor bonus apply as weapon bonus, increase the damage die, increase the temporary hitpoints gained from attacking recklessly.
I definitely think the ancestral guardian is incredible.
my vote for worst is berserker as of now but the play test seems to be improving it quite a bit.
my next worst is the storm herald. I don’t like the potential for friendly fire, weak though it may be. The options seem under tuned to me as well, even by barbarian standards.
Who voted wild magic?
This is a joke, please spare me.
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
To me the Battlerager is one of the most underwhelming.
Battleranger is not that great.
Depends on what you mean by "worst", if all you care about is damage then Battlerager's features are somewhat underpowered (though homebrewing to allow +1, +2 and +3 spiked armor to apply to them helps a lot). A lot of people hate on Berserker but having a third full attack can extremely strong in the right circumstances; a lot of people complain about the exhaustion but this is heavily campaign dependent as in a campaign that considers travel time, downtime etc. it's a lot less of a problem, IMO the Berserker being somewhat strategic in when you actually choose to use frenzied rage is a big part of its appeal. But to me they're both good because they're very characterful and the mechanics encouraging their theme well.
Personally for me the "worst" sub-class is the Zealot, because I just don't like how it functions; getting added damage with no trade-off is simply boring, and being unkillable (but only sort of) is more of a pain in the ass than interesting and so-on. It's fine, and you can absolutely build cool characters with it, but it's the least appealing of the sub-classes to me.
Storm Herald I like though some options definitely could use some rebalancing; as with most things people complain about they're not as underpowered as they can seem, but the fire aura for example is actually a fair amount of damage when correctly used (hitting multiple enemies) but again it's going to be quite campaign dependent whether you face enough hordes to make it properly useful.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I should note i completely respect your opinion. How is zealot the worst? "Being unkillable sort of" How is that a pain in the ass? I don't follow friend. You get psuedo immortality that even gets buffed the next level
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
I think they mean it's not fun to play a character who is more or less unkillable, because it takes the danger out of the game.
Personally, I've actually never tried Zealot...
DMing:
The Cataclysm Stadium
Rise of the White Mask
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian.