Ladies? Let’s all take a powder and simmer down just a bit.
Haravikk: Maybe don’t push Sposta’s well-known berserk button. Anyone who’s talked to him for more’n five posts knows picking at how he runs his games immediately infuriates him, and it shuts off reasonable discussion. He’s a passionate man, and his players keep coming back for more so clearly his games are doing fine. I can say that the pair of folks running the games I’m playing in now tend more towards the Constant Time Pressure trend as well – yes, travel is a thing and there are opportunities to rest, but the world doesn’t stand still and wait conveniently for you to bandage your boo-boos and be fully and completely ready to deal with its shit.
A lot of players like that sort of pressure. For a lot of groups, playing without that pressure feels bad and game-y – it’s that knowledge that the world will do its thing regardless of what you’re up to and if you dilly-dally you’re going to end up in the worst position that makes the game feel exciting. Angry GM codified it in a very elegant manner I am now going to butcher horribly as I paraphrase: “The players should be in a constant state of losing. If the party doesn’t actively work at winning, then they will eventually lose. The evil princess will sacrifice the innocent dragon to the ancient god of accounting; the lich will win his election bid and outlaw vigilante adventuring throughout the kingdom, the evil curse will transform the king into a fluffy bunny. Whatever. Every day the players don’t do something to Win, they slide closer to Losing.”
For groups with that sort of time pressure baked into their game – voluntarily and with the full consent of every player, including the DM – the Berserker needing to eat a week of downtime any time it leans heavily on what is supposed to be its most character-defining trait badly interferes with campaign pacing and will often impose more Losing than any single fight’s Winning can account for. Every other class in D&D resets to Green after a single night’s sleep. The Berserker does not, and while that makes it unique and potentially intriguing, it also means the character requires more buy-in and coddling from the party than any other character archetype save maybe wizards.
Nor is Greater Restoration, which requires the party to burn a 100gp diamond every single time it’s cast, the answer. Three Greater Restos is one Revivify the party doesn’t get to save a beloved character who gets caught by an unexpected crit at the edge of their endurance. A Greater Resto cast to nullify the Berserker’s self-induced lethargy is a GR not cast to clear a Petrification that will end a beloved ally’s adventuring career. The material component cost on Greater Restoration is not insignificant. I know that as a player, I would generally not be willing to use that spell to remove exhaustion from a Berserker without some absolutely fantastic reason why expending that difficult to locate component is required.
Sposta: Haravikk has apparently been putting up with shit arguments from aggravating people for most of this thread. You and I both know how that feels, because we’ve both talked to ***** before. No, that’s not forum censoring – that’s me leaving a rules-abiding blank space to avoid Name-n-Shame violations whilst allowing you to insert any of a dozen names we both know in that space of people who never seem to argue on anything but bad faith and idiocy. We both know Haravikk is normally a good guy. I happen to disagree with him on this one myself – the Berserker eating automatic exhaustion whenever it uses its class-defining, identity-codifying ability sucks, and it does bad things to campaign pacing if he ever does it more than once a day.
But you and I also disagree fiercely on matters such as species-specific ability modifiers or whether players are allowed to fake having conversations with the DM by calling for Charisma die rolls. We manage. Let’s simply assume Haravikk is having a rotten week and got snippy, the way we both know we have in the past ourselves, and restore the peace. Nobody wants to burn a bridge they don’t have to, ne?
On the Berseker (i.e. Actually On Topic): I don’t like the Exhaustion mechanic being tied to Frenzied Rage, but that’s because I feel Exhaustion should be more prevalent in D&D in general and probably even more punishing than it actually is. I believe monsters should be able to inflict Exhaustion, via either spells or abilities. I believe traps should be able to inflict it. I believe there should be certain poisons/drugs the DM can make use of that inflict the ability, and furthermore I believe that there should be much greater interconnection between the exhaustion rules and other pieces of the game. Exhaustion is a fantastic tool for game design in 5e that is criminally under-represented and underutilized, and that pisses me off.
Zee Bashew made an excellent video pointing much of this out, and Angry GM has spoken to it as well. Exhaustion should not be something people have to look up the rules for when it happens once or twice in a campaign – it should be an ever-present looming threat the players have to constantly work to avoid even as the Ticking Clock slides them ever closer to defeat. Exhaustion, especially beyond the first or second stage of it, should be heckin’ scary and something players strive to avoid.
The Berserker upends this entire idea and makes it impossible to toy around with Exhaustion as the much more interesting mechanic it deserves to be, because whenever a party has a Berserker in it the DM has to account for the fact that this stooge is liable to eat three stages of exhaustion in any given day even outside of what the DM might do with it herself, and if she’s not willing to kill this barbarian with Exhaustion and then put up with her players complaining about ‘bullshit PKs, man(!!!)’, she needs to eliminate all other sources of Exhaustion from her game. Which gives all the non-Berserkers in her game a free pass they do NOT deserve just so the Berserker can have his choice of whether to Frenzy or not.
As a DM I don’t like those chains on my own decision-making, and as a player I’m not fond of eating penalties I can do nothing to clear even over the course of several days. Yeah, that means I shouldn’t play a Berserker. And I don’t. That Frenzy attack is just not worth the cost, to either my own play or to the DM’s campaign prep work.
Does that scan?
I'd say that you do the exhaustion the way that you want to from session zero and if a barbarian player is leaning towards berserker remind them that the exhaustion rules tied to berserker stack with other sources for exhaustion. This may mean that the player will not be able to use their frenzy ability as often as they like or they'll incur more exhaustion levels than the rest. If everyone is dealing with exhaustion, then the alternate options for clearing exhaustion become that much more costly. If the player understands that at the beginning and still chooses berserker, then great. If not, choosing the other options should work well enough. Like anything else in the game, the cost associated with any choice is reflected in the resource cost of the feature as well as the opportunity cost for the feature. Just because those costs don't jive for a player doesn't mean that they won't for others. I for one would think that the level of exhaustion incurred by the berserker would make that fight that much more memorable, but I'm of the mind that you appreciate the things that you work hardest for. If it's just given to you, then the meaning attached to it is not as great. That is part of what the story of the berserker means to me as it is written. I fully understand if that means that players are not willing to play the class as such. It seems like all of the subclasses that are asked to give something up to use a feature are much maligned. Berserker, beastmaster, Eldritch Knight (give up extra attacks for the flexibility of casting a spell and make an attack), Sorcerer (spell selection for greater flexibility in ways to cast what you do know), Wild Magic Sorcerer (see above as well as the sacrifice of control) and probably others. The problem isn't the way that the classes/subclasses are designed, the problem is with the expectations that are brought to the class. This may be the biggest inclination that more classes are needed, that people are trying to pigeonhole their character concept onto a class/subclass that isn't a great fit for what they are trying to do with the character.
And yet the Berserker requiring its DM to account for its constant use of Exhaustion essentially eliminates any other usage of Exhaustion the DM may want to employ, since imposing Exhaustion ANY OTHER WAY than the barbarian choosing to Frenzy is taking away the barbarian's ability to Frenzy.
Say I'm planning an adventure in the mountains for my players, as a DM. I want to emphasize the merciless, unforgiving nature of the environment, and the hostile and inhospitable creatures who live in that environment. I've set up mechanics for frequent blizzards that sap the strength from those caught in them unprepared, as well as deciding on methods I'm going to use to track how much exertion a character outputs. Make too many Strength or Constitution checks in this punishing environment and you have to start saving against Exhaustion, as the mountains take their toll. I've created custom monsters like Zee's Marrow Sucker; creatures that deal little physical damage but instead drain the energy-rich marrow from their victims, quickly inflicting debilitating levels of Exhaustion. I've created crag trolls whose icy auras and frozen claws numb the body and sap its reserves. I've built this wonderful grueling adventure where the ever-present threat of losing strength and succumbing to the cold must be weighed against the necessity for speed, as the players race to stop...
Oh. Jim is playing a Berserker barbarian. His core subclass feature, the thing he's relying on to define his character's entire identity, requires him to constantly sustain unavoidable Exhaustion as nothing more than fuel for a handful of bonus attacks in his fights.
I now have to throw out ALL of the work I did on turning Exhaustion into a constant, looming enemy of the party. All of it. Because the Berserker needs space in which to use his Frenzied Rage or he will complain that I'm denying him his class abilities. Because he does not get to use Frenzy without incurring Exhaustion, any Exhaustion I impose from another source is effectively stealing uses of his defining class ability. Especially since it's been well-established in this thread that any use of Frenzy beyond the first stage of Exhaustion is an increasingly godawful self-defeating idea.
The canny, intelligent Berserker you describe who knows exactly when to deploy his abilities would be immensely frustrated by the game I've built because Exhaustion from other sources is interfering with his ability to display that clever battle wit. The derp-ass cheesewheel who Frenzies every single time he fights is frustrated by the game because his dumbass character died in the third session from accruing six stages of Exhaustion. In either case the player is pissed and it's My Fault(TM) as the DM
The mere existence of the Berserker subclass in the game requires the DM to sacrifice any potential use she'd otherwise make of Exhaustion as a game mechanic, because to be Fair To Her Player(C) she has to give that barbarian the freedom to choose when to Frenzy as they like. As a DM, I cannot run games in which Exhaustion features heavily should any player wish to run a Berserker.
No other class does that to me, or to any other DM. Why should the Berserker have an unfair monopoly on a game mechanic with so much potential for enhancing gameplay?
And yet the Berserker requiring its DM to account for its constant use of Exhaustion essentially eliminates any other usage of Exhaustion the DM may want to employ, since imposing Exhaustion ANY OTHER WAY than the barbarian choosing to Frenzy is taking away the barbarian's ability to Frenzy.
Say I'm planning an adventure in the mountains for my players, as a DM. I want to emphasize the merciless, unforgiving nature of the environment, and the hostile and inhospitable creatures who live in that environment. I've set up mechanics for frequent blizzards that sap the strength from those caught in them unprepared, as well as deciding on methods I'm going to use to track how much exertion a character outputs. Make too many Strength or Constitution checks in this punishing environment and you have to start saving against Exhaustion, as the mountains take their toll. I've created custom monsters like Zee's Marrow Sucker; creatures that deal little physical damage but instead drain the energy-rich marrow from their victims, quickly inflicting debilitating levels of Exhaustion. I've created crag trolls whose icy auras and frozen claws numb the body and sap its reserves. I've built this wonderful grueling adventure where the ever-present threat of losing strength and succumbing to the cold must be weighed against the necessity for speed, as the players race to stop...
Oh. Jim is playing a Berserker barbarian. His core subclass feature, the thing he's relying on to define his character's entire identity, requires him to constantly sustain unavoidable Exhaustion as nothing more than fuel for a handful of bonus attacks in his fights.
I now have to throw out ALL of the work I did on turning Exhaustion into a constant, looming enemy of the party. All of it. Because the Berserker needs space in which to use his Frenzied Rage or he will complain that I'm denying him his class abilities. Because he does not get to use Frenzy without incurring Exhaustion, any Exhaustion I impose from another source is effectively stealing uses of his defining class ability. Especially since it's been well-established in this thread that any use of Frenzy beyond the first stage of Exhaustion is an increasingly godawful self-defeating idea.
The canny, intelligent Berserker you describe who knows exactly when to deploy his abilities would be immensely frustrated by the game I've built because Exhaustion from other sources is interfering with his ability to display that clever battle wit. The derp-ass cheesewheel who Frenzies every single time he fights is frustrated by the game because his dumbass character died in the third session from accruing six stages of Exhaustion. In either case the player is pissed and it's My Fault(TM) as the DM
The mere existence of the Berserker subclass in the game requires the DM to sacrifice any potential use she'd otherwise make of Exhaustion as a game mechanic, because to be Fair To Her Player(C) she has to give that barbarian the freedom to choose when to Frenzy as they like. As a DM, I cannot run games in which Exhaustion features heavily should any player wish to run a Berserker.
No other class does that to me, or to any other DM. Why should the Berserker have an unfair monopoly on a game mechanic with so much potential for enhancing gameplay?
Calling it now: someone will argue that its way too punishing to give out exhaustion as the DM (literally what the mechanic was created for), but not for a subclass to do so.
And yet the Berserker requiring its DM to account for its constant use of Exhaustion essentially eliminates any other usage of Exhaustion the DM may want to employ, since imposing Exhaustion ANY OTHER WAY than the barbarian choosing to Frenzy is taking away the barbarian's ability to Frenzy.
Say I'm planning an adventure in the mountains for my players, as a DM. I want to emphasize the merciless, unforgiving nature of the environment, and the hostile and inhospitable creatures who live in that environment. I've set up mechanics for frequent blizzards that sap the strength from those caught in them unprepared, as well as deciding on methods I'm going to use to track how much exertion a character outputs. Make too many Strength or Constitution checks in this punishing environment and you have to start saving against Exhaustion, as the mountains take their toll. I've created custom monsters like Zee's Marrow Sucker; creatures that deal little physical damage but instead drain the energy-rich marrow from their victims, quickly inflicting debilitating levels of Exhaustion. I've created crag trolls whose icy auras and frozen claws numb the body and sap its reserves. I've built this wonderful grueling adventure where the ever-present threat of losing strength and succumbing to the cold must be weighed against the necessity for speed, as the players race to stop...
Oh. Jim is playing a Berserker barbarian. His core subclass feature, the thing he's relying on to define his character's entire identity, requires him to constantly sustain unavoidable Exhaustion as nothing more than fuel for a handful of bonus attacks in his fights.
I now have to throw out ALL of the work I did on turning Exhaustion into a constant, looming enemy of the party. All of it. Because the Berserker needs space in which to use his Frenzied Rage or he will complain that I'm denying him his class abilities. Because he does not get to use Frenzy without incurring Exhaustion, any Exhaustion I impose from another source is effectively stealing uses of his defining class ability. Especially since it's been well-established in this thread that any use of Frenzy beyond the first stage of Exhaustion is an increasingly godawful self-defeating idea.
The canny, intelligent Berserker you describe who knows exactly when to deploy his abilities would be immensely frustrated by the game I've built because Exhaustion from other sources is interfering with his ability to display that clever battle wit. The derp-ass cheesewheel who Frenzies every single time he fights is frustrated by the game because his dumbass character died in the third session from accruing six stages of Exhaustion. In either case the player is pissed and it's My Fault(TM) as the DM
The mere existence of the Berserker subclass in the game requires the DM to sacrifice any potential use she'd otherwise make of Exhaustion as a game mechanic, because to be Fair To Her Player(C) she has to give that barbarian the freedom to choose when to Frenzy as they like. As a DM, I cannot run games in which Exhaustion features heavily should any player wish to run a Berserker.
No other class does that to me, or to any other DM. Why should the Berserker have an unfair monopoly on a game mechanic with so much potential for enhancing gameplay?
Session Zero. "This adventure will test your character's endurance and push their bodies to the limits. Class and Race/Species mechanics that already explore this in a negative way will suffer more from these effects than those that don't. Class and Race/Species mechanics that aid the character in these ways will be extremely beneficial. Consider this when making your choices. " Then for giggles, have a meme ready or printed out that has the Crusader from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade saying, "They chose poorly." if a character dies of self-inflicted exhaustion. Give them fair warning, teach them what they should do, then let them govern themselves.
And yet the Berserker requiring its DM to account for its constant use of Exhaustion essentially eliminates any other usage of Exhaustion the DM may want to employ, since imposing Exhaustion ANY OTHER WAY than the barbarian choosing to Frenzy is taking away the barbarian's ability to Frenzy.
Say I'm planning an adventure in the mountains for my players, as a DM. I want to emphasize the merciless, unforgiving nature of the environment, and the hostile and inhospitable creatures who live in that environment. I've set up mechanics for frequent blizzards that sap the strength from those caught in them unprepared, as well as deciding on methods I'm going to use to track how much exertion a character outputs. Make too many Strength or Constitution checks in this punishing environment and you have to start saving against Exhaustion, as the mountains take their toll. I've created custom monsters like Zee's Marrow Sucker; creatures that deal little physical damage but instead drain the energy-rich marrow from their victims, quickly inflicting debilitating levels of Exhaustion. I've created crag trolls whose icy auras and frozen claws numb the body and sap its reserves. I've built this wonderful grueling adventure where the ever-present threat of losing strength and succumbing to the cold must be weighed against the necessity for speed, as the players race to stop...
Oh. Jim is playing a Berserker barbarian. His core subclass feature, the thing he's relying on to define his character's entire identity, requires him to constantly sustain unavoidable Exhaustion as nothing more than fuel for a handful of bonus attacks in his fights.
Nothing requires a DM to do anything, but if the goal is to have fun then a DM should always consider the player characters and how they fit into the campaign, or make absolutely clear the campaign's theme and additional challenges, and work with players to help them choose characters that will fit well with what you want to do, or make tweaks if they absolutely must play that one character they've been sitting on for ages and can't wait to use.
If you want to run a campaign that's specifically going to be a struggle for the Berseker that one player is thinking of trying, then you can encourage them to hold onto that character for a different campaign, or work with them to make it work anyway (give them one free Frenzied Rage per long rest that doesn't incur exhaustion, set a baseline exhaustion for the group and let them clear up to two levels to get back, swap Frenzied Rage for "ignores exhaustion while raging", there's three options already).
In your frozen wasteland example, I would point out as I have done before that a Wizard would also struggle, as a remote frozen wasteland isn't well known for its access to spells to copy into your spellbook. Likewise a Circle of the Land Druid may have a harder time using Natural Recovery if you consider that RAW it's supposed to involve communing with nature (of which there may not much to commune with in a frozen waste). If it's reasonable to make allowances for either of these then it should be reasonable to make an allowance for the Berserker as well?
More generally, there are other more common cases; a party that doesn't include a Rogue for example could scupper your plans to have cool stealth opportunities, a party without a Bard or other character with good social skills could sink a plan for a campaign with lots of social encounters, and so-on. There is always some way something in the party will screw with a DM's plans, Bersekers aren't unique in that regard.
The reason that campaign/DM'ing arguments don't really work against the Berserker is that a campaign, a DM and a party do not exist in isolation; all of it is a collaborative experience. Now you might argue that one particular mechanic is annoying as a DM, and that's fair enough, but to argue that you can't run a campaign because of it is strange, as you've a no shortage of ways to overcome it and still use exhaustion as a campaign mechanic if you really want to.
It sounds like a really fun idea actually; my group's going to be breaking from our current main campaign to start a Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign soon, and I'm really hoping we have some fun survival mechanics to contend with. I've put Survival proficiency on so many of the my characters, but I never seem to actually get to use it!
The canny, intelligent Berserker you describe who knows exactly when to deploy his abilities would be immensely frustrated by the game I've built because Exhaustion from other sources is interfering with his ability to display that clever battle wit. The derp-ass cheesewheel who Frenzies every single time he fights is frustrated by the game because his dumbass character died in the third session from accruing six stages of Exhaustion. In either case the player is pissed and it's My Fault(TM) as the DM
The canny Berserker who plays their class properly can still do so; knowing they're already suffering from exhaustion doesn't mean they can't still choose to take one extra point compared to everyone else at a crucial moment, it just means that afterwards they'll be suffering more from exhaustion than everyone else and need to find some way to deal with that. If anything it makes that decision more crucial and meaningful than ever, I'd actually love to play that, though not everyone might have it in mind as a Berserker.
The "derp-ass cheesewheel" sounds like someone who was determined to die no matter which campaign they played in, just like that one player who jumps into every pit they see without finding out how deep/spike filled it is first. Actually playing an intentionally short-lived Berserker also sounds like a lot of fun; it lets a group RP around the loss, could be worked out with the DM as intentional (to highlight the danger being faced), and I always have more character ideas than I've campaigns (or time) to play them in. I'd love to play that as well. 😀
Haaaaah, Zee Bashew came back with a video specifically on Berserkers sucking. I linked his video on Exhaustion earlier, but I just saw this and cracked up. Whether you agree or not, it's still an awesome little short. Here y'all go: Zee Bashew: "Berserker Barbarians are trash"
Thanks for ignoring all my points just to deflect onto someone else's arguments instead; I'm not interested in arguing with yet another person.
I've had it with this thread; it seems to bring out the worst in everyone, over a class that is perfectly fun to play and actually works very well. If all you lot care about is hating something, then all I can do is pity you, I'm done trying to actually discuss it.
If any mods are reading, I'd ask that this thread and all threads like it be closed; they seem to be nothing places for people to whine, and then dog-pile anyone who disagrees.
I wasn't deflecting. I just thought it was funny, and a well done piece of animation, that came out at a hilariously topical time. But sure. I'll get back to your arguments when I'm not in a work meeting. Gimme 'bout an hour.
Part of the issue is that I really like Exhaustion. Like I said, I think it’s criminally underutilized and should be a much bigger part of D&D in general. But...it really can’t be, because the primary reason for its entire existence is as a means of limiting the Berserker’s Frenzied Rages. I really freaking hate that, because it becomes an issue that limits campaign design in a way little else does. Parties can manage to work really hard to avoid having the skills you’re expecting them to have, and that sucks.
You can have a party lined up for a game about stopping shadowy cultists from completing their work to release an Ancient Unknowable Evil in the world...where absolutely no one in the entire party has one single Intelligence skill proficiency because Intelligence is a universal dump stat in D&D. That party will be all manner of bull-in-a-china-shop because your entire campaign was supposed to revolve heavily around investigation, history, religion, arcana – all of it. The party is terrible at those checks – but their lack of those things don’t actively work against their own survival in every fight.
Now sure, if I know my players hate raising their Intelligence scores above six (because their IRL Intelligence scores average around 8, huer huer), then I shouldn’t run that game. But I can still put those checks in there, even if they’re not necessarily central to the game, because I enjoy needling my band of Byron Boneskulls that brains are a thing and if they all had even just one to share between them they’d have an easier time.
I just can’t do that with a Berserker, though. If somebody in a game I’m running is dead-set on Berserker, I have to eliminate all Exhaustion from my game. There’s a difference between not investing in something the DM thinks you might maybe should, and actively investing in something you are using as the core identifier of your entire character. If I take that away by never giving the Berserker space to Frenzy, then I’m not simply preying on a lack of investment (which is my god-given right as a DM, mind), but actively nullifying/canceling the investment the party did make. Which is not nearly as okay.
Like you said – you want a chance to use your Survival proficiency. When someone plays a Berserker, they’re not playing a Berserker to not flipp schittes and go into an absolute blood-soaked frothing-mouthed Killtrocity Murder Seizure any time they possibly can. Which means I’m out a tool I really like unless I edit the class to get rid of the Exhaustion. And you’ve spent the last few pages of this thread pointing out why one should never do that.
I've run berserkers and other barbs at various levels. From what I can tell, it's not as bad I initially thought.
Having an additional attack as a bonus action is very nice, especially when you really want something to drop as soon as possible. This competes with TWF, PAM and GWM as they provide bonus action attacks, too. Unlike the others, Frenzy doesn't require the use of an Attack action and attacking with a particular weapon type, although it's often still the best action to take while using Frenzy. Heck, without a drawback or other limit, this would make berserkers completely busted!
Mindless Rage is awesome. No other barb gets this type of protection, and without investing into Resilient or another class for wisdom saves to boot! It also suspends the effect if you start your rage. Dominated and ordered to kill your allies? Rage as normal, then turn on your "master!"
Intimidating Presence is very thematic, but poorly designed. It's a shame, really.
Retaliation is also awesome. Chances are that they'll be getting hit often from using Reckless Attack, so being able to tack on an additional swing makes this subclass very efficient with its action economy.
The most comparable subclass to this would likely be the battlerager, as it does a lot of similar things; bonus action attack at 3rd level (albeit a d4 one), added protection at 6th, utility at 10th and a counterattack at 14th. I feel that one's a bit better against hordes of minions, while berserkers are better boss killers.
As for exhaustion, it's definitely a penalty worth noting, but that's what you sign up for when you pick a berserker, although you can still rage without using Frenzy. You can argue that spellcasters are in the same boat, especially at low levels. Run out of slots? They're dead weight until the next long rest.
I find the arguing rather hilarious. Let’s address a few points:
“oh no, I can’t use exhaustion in my campaign because Berserkers!”
This is just your opinion. Why can’t you? Maybe the problem is your Berserker PC doesn’t understand how to ration his own class features? And if exhaustion is SO BAD... why would you include it in the game as a DM? Of disadvantage on an ability score ruins the game for berserkers in the current environment, then by that nature EVERY player would hate your campaign because you’re using the exhaustion mechanic on everyone.
And exhaustion level 2 takes you from 40ft movement to 20ft movement. Not really a huge sacrifice if you need it.
”But I just use GWM and I’m equal!”
What a load of garbage. Your argument is “But if I add a feat then I’m just as good or better!” Fine, my Barb takes Sentinel. Now you can go compare those two feats. And this also ignores *every single situation I talked about where at level 6+ you can’t even attack because you’re Charmed or Feared*. Do you guys even play beyond level 5? GWM doesn’t add to damage that you cannot actually do.
Besides, a Berserker attacks 3 times per round and can wield a shield - so when the moment calls for defense, they can do it.
I have yet to see a single one of you complain or consider the massive number of monsters that use Fear and Charm. You all seem stuck on this “exhaustion sucks” and comparing things in a vacuum. Let me know when you’re willing to discuss the class as a whole instead of “I don’t like it because level 3...”
I have to be very sparing with my posts these days or The Gods Grow Cross, but I am permitted to continue discussions I had already started/joined prior to that decree. Somewhat. So let’s try one more time, here.
Brewsky: If a DM wants to use Exhaustion in her campaign, but one of her PCs is liable to self-generate anywhere between two to four stages of Exhaustion with their core class feature on any given day, that DM is left with a choice: she can instead redesign her campaign to eliminate Exhaustion, or she can accept that her Berserker is GOING to kill himself with his own Frenzied Rage and she’ll take the fall for it. Because even if the real issue is exactly what you stated – the player doesn’t understand that Frenzy is an emergency option, not a Cool Anime Moment button – it’s still the DM’s fault. How many times do people insist, across every category of this forum, that the DM’s job is to cater to her players and mold the story to them, even at the cost of her own enjoyment and satisfaction as a storyteller?
As I stated – a player who takes the Berserker subclass did not do so because they didn’t want to fly into a frothing-mouthed Tazmanian Devil murdertronic Axenado at the drop of a hat, and a DM is not generally permitted to say “that is a really bad idea in this campaign, I strongly recommend against it, and if you do it anyways I refuse to hear complaints when profligate use of Frenzied Rage kills your character.”
As for the rest of the Berserker subclass? Mindless Rage is indeed an excellent ability and one to be lauded. Much like every other passive protection ability however, it is absolutely worthless at any point where it is not amazing. In a battle against creatures unable to generate either fear or charm effects, Mindless Rage disappears. The Zealot, which is the closest option damage-wise to a Berserker, gains the ability to try again on ANY saving throw, including saves against far deadlier effects than charm or fear. The Storm Herald gains an always-on elemental resistance and useful movement or utility options. Ancestral Guardians can shield their allies from harm. To say nothing of elves and half-elves having advantage against charm, halflings having advantage against fear, and both gnomes and kalashtar having advantage against both as both effects are almost universally Wisdom saving throws. None of those may be ‘traditional’ barbarian races, but they’re certainly not unplayable. Hell, my favorite barbarian is a wood elf formerly-Ancestral Guardian, now-Wild Soul. Try telling Tiger Lily she’s bad at her job. See what she has to say about it.
Many of these are indeed less impactful than Mindless Rage...but then, there is no ability in the entirety of the barbarian class, across all subclasses, as weak as Intimidating Presence, is there? If you wish to discuss the Berserker as a whole because of Mindless Rage, then you cannot ignore the absolute atrocity of an ability that is Intimidating Presence.
An ability which will almost always have a very low DC, an ability that requires your uninterrupted action every single turn, and which the creature can break with one singular Dash action – or a regular move, if it can put a tree, a lamp post, or something else between you and it for just a moment. And if the saving throw succeeds, the ability becomes completely inert for 24 hours. The actual factual best possible use of this ability is to give shopkeepers or other NPCs disadvantage against your other party members’ checks to haggle for better prices or extort information from them, and that’s if they fail a saving throw whose DC is generally going to be 12 or less at best in the first place.
Every other barbarian subclass in the game, including the two UA ones, have better level 10 abilities than the berserker. Every single one. The berserker unequivocally loses that contest, without any room for argument.
Now, the berserker picks up again at 14, where it gets a reaction melee attack it’s quite likely to be able to make very often. Let’s go down the list and compare this to other abilities:
The Ancestral Guardian’s Vengeful Ancestors: VA deals similar damage and prevents the same amount of damage; it’s less likely to happen, but it’s not that much less likely if your party isn’t hanging you out to dry.
The Battlerager’s Spiked Retribution: Spiked Retribution is quite weak – but it’s also automatic and activates without limit, leaving the Rager’s reaction free. It’s not as good as Retribution, I’d say, but there are situations where a Battlerager can rack up more damage, and unlike a Berserker it doesn’t sacrifice its movement-inhibiting attack of opportunity to do it.
The Beast’s Call the Hunt: Assuming the Tasha’s version is somewhere close to this, a Beast barbarian can give every frontliner in their party Reckless Attack. Feel like turning your rogue on for the entire battle? Go ham. Want that paladin to have an awesome time crit fishing? Do it up. The Beast also gains advantage against fear and some temp HP to boot. Each time an ally’s Reckless strike lands an attack that would’ve missed, you’re getting most of the damage of a Retribution reaction attack. Certainly no joke.
The Storm Herald’s Raging Storm: If the Storm Herald is a Sea or Tundra type (the way God bloody intended), they can either knock their target prone with a reaction – making it very difficult for that target to escape the barbarian – or they can eliminate its movement speed entirely. Proning benefits your entire team, and freezing an enemy in place has obvious applications.
The Totem Warrior’s Totemic Attunement: Every single benefit you can choose here is freaking awesome. You can tank like a boss, you can trample a creature flat, you can gain a bonus melee weapon attack just like the Berserker’s by pouncing on it properly, you can just prone a target for free when you hit it with a melee attack, or you can ******* fly. None of these are things any self-respecting barbarian would say no to.
The Wild Soul’s Chaotic Fury: Roll twice on your powerful Wild Surge table, choose the result you want most – with a roughly twelve-ish percent chance to be able to just pick the option you want. This subclass is already super lit and extremely potent; its fourteenth-level ability helps offset the randomness that’s really about the only thing keeping it from being outrageously overtuned.
The Zealot’s Rage Beyond Death: You wanna talk about Badass Anime Moments? Frenzy ain’t got nothing on being Literally Too Angry To Die. A Zealot who’s Raging Beyond Death has effectively limitless hit points, and so long as somebody’s got a Healing Word to spare before the Zealot’s rage ends, she’s no worse for wear. Getting an extra whack per turn on average may end up being more useful overall throughout the life of a campaign. Nobody will ever say it’s more cool than Rage Beyond Death.
So. The Berserker arguably wins at level 6, categorically loses at level 10, and comes in roughly middle of the pack at level 14. Given the fact that Frenzy arguably also loses at 3rd level – arguably, to be sure, but one can absolutely make the argument – it feels disingenuous to claim that the Berserker is Da Bess barbarian, ne?
This is just your opinion. Why can’t you? Maybe the problem is your Berserker PC doesn’t understand how to ration his own class features? And if exhaustion is SO BAD... why would you include it in the game as a DM? Of disadvantage on an ability score ruins the game for berserkers in the current environment, then by that nature EVERY player would hate your campaign because you’re using the exhaustion mechanic on everyone.
Well first off, its hard to rack up exhaustion outside of this barbarian subclass to begin with. It would have to be in a more dedicated survival campaign, because the basic rules avoid giving exhaustion to players.
If the berserker (who already has to ration their frenzy to not be useless) gets exhaustion from any other source, they may as well not have a 3rd level ability at all because of how slowly exhaustion is dealt with.
What a load of garbage. Your argument is “But if I add a feat then I’m just as good or better!”
The point is that feats and other subclasses give bonus action attacks and damage boosts all the time without a punishment for using them. The berserker already gives up having a 3rd level ability for most encounters for the ability to use it where it matters. The class already makes that trade off. Throwing on a punishment mechanic so annoying the game basically never touches it otherwise is just harsh.
I have yet to see a single one of you complain or consider the massive number of monsters that use Fear and Charm.
That the 6th and 14th level abilities are good has already come up several times. No one is saying the subclass is bad because of those abilities.
But a few points:
1. Not every source of charm will allow a berserker to use rage to get out of it. And there are still other effects that the ability doesn't help with at all, so it's use shouldn't be exaggerated. Its good, but worth not using my third level ability for 90% of encounters? Debatable.
2. 3rd level abilities define a subclass, since they are the first tool you get and the one you will have for the longest stretch of play. Its a problem if later abilities need to make up for a main subclass ability because you rarely get to use it.
3. If we are bringing up later abilities, the 10th level ability is a real joke. How many things should the 6th and 14th level abilities make up for? Why shouldn't each ability just feel like an actual contribution to play?
And how much are we going to value abilities from later levels, where campaigns tend to peter out? Some high level abilities are great, but if you only get to play with them for a few sessions, was it really worth walking around with an annoying exhaustion level or two while not using your 3rd level ability for most of the campaign?
4. The exhaustion levels aren't even a cool drawback, like some anime character pushing themselves beyond mortal limits at the cost of some later pain. Its almost impossible to actually die from unless the player actively pursues it so they can get a new character, since using frenzy to 3 levels of exhaustion is self defeating. If I want a character who burns out in a blaze of glory, its not going to be as the guy who has slowly died of exhaustion over the course of days and weeks like an over-worked fast food employee. Even if you think a self-destruction mechanic is a cool idea (and I think it is) you have to admit that exhaustion is the lamest version of that.
I would also point out that by level 15 the exhaustion becomes a non issue with Persistent Rage. Just keep your rage going til the next time you long rest.
Persistent Rage doesn't let you keep raging beyond a minute. It just means that it no longer ends early if yo go around without attacking someone or taking damage.
And once a barbarian gets infinite rages per day, I'd rule that as nothing says that you can burn rages to extend a single rage's duration you're instead just ending the rage and starting a new one, so you get a level of exhaustion each time.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Persistent Rage doesn't let you keep raging beyond a minute. It just means that it no longer ends early if yo go around without attacking someone or taking damage.
And once a barbarian gets infinite rages per day, I'd rule that as nothing says that you can burn rages to extend a single rage's duration you're instead just ending the rage and starting a new one, so you get a level of exhaustion each time.
Each time you frenzy, not each time you rage. Not that you necessarily stated that, but making sure that no one interprets it that way.
Exhaustion accumulates and it is brutal. A LONG rest only gets rid of 1 level of exhaustion. So if you only used Frenzy twice, you wake up with 1 level of exhaustion.
If that day you use it twice again, the next day you wake up with 2 levels.
PAM gives you a bonus attack that only does 3 less damage, and does not punish you at all
There's a lot of back and forth about whether or not exhaustion is too punishing, or whether or not Frenzy is too unreliable since you really are only probably going to use it once per day, as opposed to other mechanics which show up a lot more frequently... but I think those still miss the real problem.
Frenzy is just not really great to begin with. The whole "low floor, high ceiling, limited use" conceit falls apart when the Zealot is right there doing pretty comparable damage and even getting a chance to zoom past the berserker if they have a source of bonus action damage, which isn't exactly hard to get.
A one and done Barbarian subclass that focuses on going all in once per day should at the very least be really good when it does, but the Berserker doesn't even have that.
To be honest, I'm surprised the optional features in TCoE didn't address this.
Given that the primary schtick of the subclass is the bonus action attack, with the charm/frighten immunity, frighten action and reaction attack coming later, you can accomplish all of this using a Conquest Paladin with PAM. And it doesn't involve any dump stats. And you can still cast spells.
Beginning at 15th level, your rage is so fierce that it ends early only if you fall unconscious or if you choose to end it.
I mean.. To quote Bruce Banner: "That's my secret Captain, I'm always angry".
A subclass still gets the main class abilities and the berserker can be immune to charmed and frightened condition and get that 3rd bonus attack all day... while still having resistance from slashing, piercing and bludgeoning constantly, and the added damage from rage along with advantage on strength checks and saves. Yes all barbarians get the later things but the point is that they also gain that extra attack with added damage and can do this all day, they don't need to rest....
Also that conquest paladin can be charmed AND run out of spells.
Actually if you just use the feat for gaining an invocation (the one where you don't need sleep) you can even frenzy forever ;D The rest of the party might have some issues sleeping with the barbarian walking around all pissed off, huffing and puffing around the camp though :p
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I'd say that you do the exhaustion the way that you want to from session zero and if a barbarian player is leaning towards berserker remind them that the exhaustion rules tied to berserker stack with other sources for exhaustion. This may mean that the player will not be able to use their frenzy ability as often as they like or they'll incur more exhaustion levels than the rest. If everyone is dealing with exhaustion, then the alternate options for clearing exhaustion become that much more costly. If the player understands that at the beginning and still chooses berserker, then great. If not, choosing the other options should work well enough. Like anything else in the game, the cost associated with any choice is reflected in the resource cost of the feature as well as the opportunity cost for the feature. Just because those costs don't jive for a player doesn't mean that they won't for others. I for one would think that the level of exhaustion incurred by the berserker would make that fight that much more memorable, but I'm of the mind that you appreciate the things that you work hardest for. If it's just given to you, then the meaning attached to it is not as great. That is part of what the story of the berserker means to me as it is written. I fully understand if that means that players are not willing to play the class as such. It seems like all of the subclasses that are asked to give something up to use a feature are much maligned. Berserker, beastmaster, Eldritch Knight (give up extra attacks for the flexibility of casting a spell and make an attack), Sorcerer (spell selection for greater flexibility in ways to cast what you do know), Wild Magic Sorcerer (see above as well as the sacrifice of control) and probably others. The problem isn't the way that the classes/subclasses are designed, the problem is with the expectations that are brought to the class. This may be the biggest inclination that more classes are needed, that people are trying to pigeonhole their character concept onto a class/subclass that isn't a great fit for what they are trying to do with the character.
And yet the Berserker requiring its DM to account for its constant use of Exhaustion essentially eliminates any other usage of Exhaustion the DM may want to employ, since imposing Exhaustion ANY OTHER WAY than the barbarian choosing to Frenzy is taking away the barbarian's ability to Frenzy.
Say I'm planning an adventure in the mountains for my players, as a DM. I want to emphasize the merciless, unforgiving nature of the environment, and the hostile and inhospitable creatures who live in that environment. I've set up mechanics for frequent blizzards that sap the strength from those caught in them unprepared, as well as deciding on methods I'm going to use to track how much exertion a character outputs. Make too many Strength or Constitution checks in this punishing environment and you have to start saving against Exhaustion, as the mountains take their toll. I've created custom monsters like Zee's Marrow Sucker; creatures that deal little physical damage but instead drain the energy-rich marrow from their victims, quickly inflicting debilitating levels of Exhaustion. I've created crag trolls whose icy auras and frozen claws numb the body and sap its reserves. I've built this wonderful grueling adventure where the ever-present threat of losing strength and succumbing to the cold must be weighed against the necessity for speed, as the players race to stop...
Oh. Jim is playing a Berserker barbarian. His core subclass feature, the thing he's relying on to define his character's entire identity, requires him to constantly sustain unavoidable Exhaustion as nothing more than fuel for a handful of bonus attacks in his fights.
I now have to throw out ALL of the work I did on turning Exhaustion into a constant, looming enemy of the party. All of it. Because the Berserker needs space in which to use his Frenzied Rage or he will complain that I'm denying him his class abilities. Because he does not get to use Frenzy without incurring Exhaustion, any Exhaustion I impose from another source is effectively stealing uses of his defining class ability. Especially since it's been well-established in this thread that any use of Frenzy beyond the first stage of Exhaustion is an increasingly godawful self-defeating idea.
The canny, intelligent Berserker you describe who knows exactly when to deploy his abilities would be immensely frustrated by the game I've built because Exhaustion from other sources is interfering with his ability to display that clever battle wit. The derp-ass cheesewheel who Frenzies every single time he fights is frustrated by the game because his dumbass character died in the third session from accruing six stages of Exhaustion. In either case the player is pissed and it's My Fault(TM) as the DM
The mere existence of the Berserker subclass in the game requires the DM to sacrifice any potential use she'd otherwise make of Exhaustion as a game mechanic, because to be Fair To Her Player(C) she has to give that barbarian the freedom to choose when to Frenzy as they like. As a DM, I cannot run games in which Exhaustion features heavily should any player wish to run a Berserker.
No other class does that to me, or to any other DM. Why should the Berserker have an unfair monopoly on a game mechanic with so much potential for enhancing gameplay?
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Calling it now: someone will argue that its way too punishing to give out exhaustion as the DM (literally what the mechanic was created for), but not for a subclass to do so.
Session Zero. "This adventure will test your character's endurance and push their bodies to the limits. Class and Race/Species mechanics that already explore this in a negative way will suffer more from these effects than those that don't. Class and Race/Species mechanics that aid the character in these ways will be extremely beneficial. Consider this when making your choices. " Then for giggles, have a meme ready or printed out that has the Crusader from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade saying, "They chose poorly." if a character dies of self-inflicted exhaustion. Give them fair warning, teach them what they should do, then let them govern themselves.
Nothing requires a DM to do anything, but if the goal is to have fun then a DM should always consider the player characters and how they fit into the campaign, or make absolutely clear the campaign's theme and additional challenges, and work with players to help them choose characters that will fit well with what you want to do, or make tweaks if they absolutely must play that one character they've been sitting on for ages and can't wait to use.
If you want to run a campaign that's specifically going to be a struggle for the Berseker that one player is thinking of trying, then you can encourage them to hold onto that character for a different campaign, or work with them to make it work anyway (give them one free Frenzied Rage per long rest that doesn't incur exhaustion, set a baseline exhaustion for the group and let them clear up to two levels to get back, swap Frenzied Rage for "ignores exhaustion while raging", there's three options already).
In your frozen wasteland example, I would point out as I have done before that a Wizard would also struggle, as a remote frozen wasteland isn't well known for its access to spells to copy into your spellbook. Likewise a Circle of the Land Druid may have a harder time using Natural Recovery if you consider that RAW it's supposed to involve communing with nature (of which there may not much to commune with in a frozen waste). If it's reasonable to make allowances for either of these then it should be reasonable to make an allowance for the Berserker as well?
More generally, there are other more common cases; a party that doesn't include a Rogue for example could scupper your plans to have cool stealth opportunities, a party without a Bard or other character with good social skills could sink a plan for a campaign with lots of social encounters, and so-on. There is always some way something in the party will screw with a DM's plans, Bersekers aren't unique in that regard.
The reason that campaign/DM'ing arguments don't really work against the Berserker is that a campaign, a DM and a party do not exist in isolation; all of it is a collaborative experience. Now you might argue that one particular mechanic is annoying as a DM, and that's fair enough, but to argue that you can't run a campaign because of it is strange, as you've a no shortage of ways to overcome it and still use exhaustion as a campaign mechanic if you really want to.
It sounds like a really fun idea actually; my group's going to be breaking from our current main campaign to start a Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign soon, and I'm really hoping we have some fun survival mechanics to contend with. I've put Survival proficiency on so many of the my characters, but I never seem to actually get to use it!
The canny Berserker who plays their class properly can still do so; knowing they're already suffering from exhaustion doesn't mean they can't still choose to take one extra point compared to everyone else at a crucial moment, it just means that afterwards they'll be suffering more from exhaustion than everyone else and need to find some way to deal with that. If anything it makes that decision more crucial and meaningful than ever, I'd actually love to play that, though not everyone might have it in mind as a Berserker.
The "derp-ass cheesewheel" sounds like someone who was determined to die no matter which campaign they played in, just like that one player who jumps into every pit they see without finding out how deep/spike filled it is first. Actually playing an intentionally short-lived Berserker also sounds like a lot of fun; it lets a group RP around the loss, could be worked out with the DM as intentional (to highlight the danger being faced), and I always have more character ideas than I've campaigns (or time) to play them in. I'd love to play that as well. 😀
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Haaaaah, Zee Bashew came back with a video specifically on Berserkers sucking. I linked his video on Exhaustion earlier, but I just saw this and cracked up. Whether you agree or not, it's still an awesome little short. Here y'all go:
Zee Bashew: "Berserker Barbarians are trash"
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Thanks for ignoring all my points just to deflect onto someone else's arguments instead; I'm not interested in arguing with yet another person.
I've had it with this thread; it seems to bring out the worst in everyone, over a class that is perfectly fun to play and actually works very well. If all you lot care about is hating something, then all I can do is pity you, I'm done trying to actually discuss it.
If any mods are reading, I'd ask that this thread and all threads like it be closed; they seem to be nothing places for people to whine, and then dog-pile anyone who disagrees.
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I wasn't deflecting. I just thought it was funny, and a well done piece of animation, that came out at a hilariously topical time. But sure. I'll get back to your arguments when I'm not in a work meeting. Gimme 'bout an hour.
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Okay. As promised.
Part of the issue is that I really like Exhaustion. Like I said, I think it’s criminally underutilized and should be a much bigger part of D&D in general. But...it really can’t be, because the primary reason for its entire existence is as a means of limiting the Berserker’s Frenzied Rages. I really freaking hate that, because it becomes an issue that limits campaign design in a way little else does. Parties can manage to work really hard to avoid having the skills you’re expecting them to have, and that sucks.
You can have a party lined up for a game about stopping shadowy cultists from completing their work to release an Ancient Unknowable Evil in the world...where absolutely no one in the entire party has one single Intelligence skill proficiency because Intelligence is a universal dump stat in D&D. That party will be all manner of bull-in-a-china-shop because your entire campaign was supposed to revolve heavily around investigation, history, religion, arcana – all of it. The party is terrible at those checks – but their lack of those things don’t actively work against their own survival in every fight.
Now sure, if I know my players hate raising their Intelligence scores above six (because their IRL Intelligence scores average around 8, huer huer), then I shouldn’t run that game. But I can still put those checks in there, even if they’re not necessarily central to the game, because I enjoy needling my band of Byron Boneskulls that brains are a thing and if they all had even just one to share between them they’d have an easier time.
I just can’t do that with a Berserker, though. If somebody in a game I’m running is dead-set on Berserker, I have to eliminate all Exhaustion from my game. There’s a difference between not investing in something the DM thinks you might maybe should, and actively investing in something you are using as the core identifier of your entire character. If I take that away by never giving the Berserker space to Frenzy, then I’m not simply preying on a lack of investment (which is my god-given right as a DM, mind), but actively nullifying/canceling the investment the party did make. Which is not nearly as okay.
Like you said – you want a chance to use your Survival proficiency. When someone plays a Berserker, they’re not playing a Berserker to not flipp schittes and go into an absolute blood-soaked frothing-mouthed Killtrocity Murder Seizure any time they possibly can. Which means I’m out a tool I really like unless I edit the class to get rid of the Exhaustion. And you’ve spent the last few pages of this thread pointing out why one should never do that.
So...rock and a hard place, ne?
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I've run berserkers and other barbs at various levels. From what I can tell, it's not as bad I initially thought.
Having an additional attack as a bonus action is very nice, especially when you really want something to drop as soon as possible. This competes with TWF, PAM and GWM as they provide bonus action attacks, too. Unlike the others, Frenzy doesn't require the use of an Attack action and attacking with a particular weapon type, although it's often still the best action to take while using Frenzy. Heck, without a drawback or other limit, this would make berserkers completely busted!
Mindless Rage is awesome. No other barb gets this type of protection, and without investing into Resilient or another class for wisdom saves to boot! It also suspends the effect if you start your rage. Dominated and ordered to kill your allies? Rage as normal, then turn on your "master!"
Intimidating Presence is very thematic, but poorly designed. It's a shame, really.
Retaliation is also awesome. Chances are that they'll be getting hit often from using Reckless Attack, so being able to tack on an additional swing makes this subclass very efficient with its action economy.
The most comparable subclass to this would likely be the battlerager, as it does a lot of similar things; bonus action attack at 3rd level (albeit a d4 one), added protection at 6th, utility at 10th and a counterattack at 14th. I feel that one's a bit better against hordes of minions, while berserkers are better boss killers.
As for exhaustion, it's definitely a penalty worth noting, but that's what you sign up for when you pick a berserker, although you can still rage without using Frenzy. You can argue that spellcasters are in the same boat, especially at low levels. Run out of slots? They're dead weight until the next long rest.
I find the arguing rather hilarious. Let’s address a few points:
“oh no, I can’t use exhaustion in my campaign because Berserkers!”
This is just your opinion. Why can’t you? Maybe the problem is your Berserker PC doesn’t understand how to ration his own class features? And if exhaustion is SO BAD... why would you include it in the game as a DM? Of disadvantage on an ability score ruins the game for berserkers in the current environment, then by that nature EVERY player would hate your campaign because you’re using the exhaustion mechanic on everyone.
And exhaustion level 2 takes you from 40ft movement to 20ft movement. Not really a huge sacrifice if you need it.
”But I just use GWM and I’m equal!”
What a load of garbage. Your argument is “But if I add a feat then I’m just as good or better!” Fine, my Barb takes Sentinel. Now you can go compare those two feats. And this also ignores *every single situation I talked about where at level 6+ you can’t even attack because you’re Charmed or Feared*. Do you guys even play beyond level 5? GWM doesn’t add to damage that you cannot actually do.
Besides, a Berserker attacks 3 times per round and can wield a shield - so when the moment calls for defense, they can do it.
I have yet to see a single one of you complain or consider the massive number of monsters that use Fear and Charm. You all seem stuck on this “exhaustion sucks” and comparing things in a vacuum. Let me know when you’re willing to discuss the class as a whole instead of “I don’t like it because level 3...”
I have to be very sparing with my posts these days or The Gods Grow Cross, but I am permitted to continue discussions I had already started/joined prior to that decree. Somewhat. So let’s try one more time, here.
Brewsky: If a DM wants to use Exhaustion in her campaign, but one of her PCs is liable to self-generate anywhere between two to four stages of Exhaustion with their core class feature on any given day, that DM is left with a choice: she can instead redesign her campaign to eliminate Exhaustion, or she can accept that her Berserker is GOING to kill himself with his own Frenzied Rage and she’ll take the fall for it. Because even if the real issue is exactly what you stated – the player doesn’t understand that Frenzy is an emergency option, not a Cool Anime Moment button – it’s still the DM’s fault. How many times do people insist, across every category of this forum, that the DM’s job is to cater to her players and mold the story to them, even at the cost of her own enjoyment and satisfaction as a storyteller?
As I stated – a player who takes the Berserker subclass did not do so because they didn’t want to fly into a frothing-mouthed Tazmanian Devil murdertronic Axenado at the drop of a hat, and a DM is not generally permitted to say “that is a really bad idea in this campaign, I strongly recommend against it, and if you do it anyways I refuse to hear complaints when profligate use of Frenzied Rage kills your character.”
As for the rest of the Berserker subclass? Mindless Rage is indeed an excellent ability and one to be lauded. Much like every other passive protection ability however, it is absolutely worthless at any point where it is not amazing. In a battle against creatures unable to generate either fear or charm effects, Mindless Rage disappears. The Zealot, which is the closest option damage-wise to a Berserker, gains the ability to try again on ANY saving throw, including saves against far deadlier effects than charm or fear. The Storm Herald gains an always-on elemental resistance and useful movement or utility options. Ancestral Guardians can shield their allies from harm. To say nothing of elves and half-elves having advantage against charm, halflings having advantage against fear, and both gnomes and kalashtar having advantage against both as both effects are almost universally Wisdom saving throws. None of those may be ‘traditional’ barbarian races, but they’re certainly not unplayable. Hell, my favorite barbarian is a wood elf formerly-Ancestral Guardian, now-Wild Soul. Try telling Tiger Lily she’s bad at her job. See what she has to say about it.
Many of these are indeed less impactful than Mindless Rage...but then, there is no ability in the entirety of the barbarian class, across all subclasses, as weak as Intimidating Presence, is there? If you wish to discuss the Berserker as a whole because of Mindless Rage, then you cannot ignore the absolute atrocity of an ability that is Intimidating Presence.
An ability which will almost always have a very low DC, an ability that requires your uninterrupted action every single turn, and which the creature can break with one singular Dash action – or a regular move, if it can put a tree, a lamp post, or something else between you and it for just a moment. And if the saving throw succeeds, the ability becomes completely inert for 24 hours. The actual factual best possible use of this ability is to give shopkeepers or other NPCs disadvantage against your other party members’ checks to haggle for better prices or extort information from them, and that’s if they fail a saving throw whose DC is generally going to be 12 or less at best in the first place.
Every other barbarian subclass in the game, including the two UA ones, have better level 10 abilities than the berserker. Every single one. The berserker unequivocally loses that contest, without any room for argument.
Now, the berserker picks up again at 14, where it gets a reaction melee attack it’s quite likely to be able to make very often. Let’s go down the list and compare this to other abilities:
The Ancestral Guardian’s Vengeful Ancestors: VA deals similar damage and prevents the same amount of damage; it’s less likely to happen, but it’s not that much less likely if your party isn’t hanging you out to dry.
The Battlerager’s Spiked Retribution: Spiked Retribution is quite weak – but it’s also automatic and activates without limit, leaving the Rager’s reaction free. It’s not as good as Retribution, I’d say, but there are situations where a Battlerager can rack up more damage, and unlike a Berserker it doesn’t sacrifice its movement-inhibiting attack of opportunity to do it.
The Beast’s Call the Hunt: Assuming the Tasha’s version is somewhere close to this, a Beast barbarian can give every frontliner in their party Reckless Attack. Feel like turning your rogue on for the entire battle? Go ham. Want that paladin to have an awesome time crit fishing? Do it up. The Beast also gains advantage against fear and some temp HP to boot. Each time an ally’s Reckless strike lands an attack that would’ve missed, you’re getting most of the damage of a Retribution reaction attack. Certainly no joke.
The Storm Herald’s Raging Storm: If the Storm Herald is a Sea or Tundra type (the way God bloody intended), they can either knock their target prone with a reaction – making it very difficult for that target to escape the barbarian – or they can eliminate its movement speed entirely. Proning benefits your entire team, and freezing an enemy in place has obvious applications.
The Totem Warrior’s Totemic Attunement: Every single benefit you can choose here is freaking awesome. You can tank like a boss, you can trample a creature flat, you can gain a bonus melee weapon attack just like the Berserker’s by pouncing on it properly, you can just prone a target for free when you hit it with a melee attack, or you can ******* fly. None of these are things any self-respecting barbarian would say no to.
The Wild Soul’s Chaotic Fury: Roll twice on your powerful Wild Surge table, choose the result you want most – with a roughly twelve-ish percent chance to be able to just pick the option you want. This subclass is already super lit and extremely potent; its fourteenth-level ability helps offset the randomness that’s really about the only thing keeping it from being outrageously overtuned.
The Zealot’s Rage Beyond Death: You wanna talk about Badass Anime Moments? Frenzy ain’t got nothing on being Literally Too Angry To Die. A Zealot who’s Raging Beyond Death has effectively limitless hit points, and so long as somebody’s got a Healing Word to spare before the Zealot’s rage ends, she’s no worse for wear. Getting an extra whack per turn on average may end up being more useful overall throughout the life of a campaign. Nobody will ever say it’s more cool than Rage Beyond Death.
So. The Berserker arguably wins at level 6, categorically loses at level 10, and comes in roughly middle of the pack at level 14. Given the fact that Frenzy arguably also loses at 3rd level – arguably, to be sure, but one can absolutely make the argument – it feels disingenuous to claim that the Berserker is Da Bess barbarian, ne?
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Well first off, its hard to rack up exhaustion outside of this barbarian subclass to begin with. It would have to be in a more dedicated survival campaign, because the basic rules avoid giving exhaustion to players.
If the berserker (who already has to ration their frenzy to not be useless) gets exhaustion from any other source, they may as well not have a 3rd level ability at all because of how slowly exhaustion is dealt with.
The point is that feats and other subclasses give bonus action attacks and damage boosts all the time without a punishment for using them. The berserker already gives up having a 3rd level ability for most encounters for the ability to use it where it matters. The class already makes that trade off. Throwing on a punishment mechanic so annoying the game basically never touches it otherwise is just harsh.
That the 6th and 14th level abilities are good has already come up several times. No one is saying the subclass is bad because of those abilities.
But a few points:
1. Not every source of charm will allow a berserker to use rage to get out of it. And there are still other effects that the ability doesn't help with at all, so it's use shouldn't be exaggerated. Its good, but worth not using my third level ability for 90% of encounters? Debatable.
2. 3rd level abilities define a subclass, since they are the first tool you get and the one you will have for the longest stretch of play. Its a problem if later abilities need to make up for a main subclass ability because you rarely get to use it.
3. If we are bringing up later abilities, the 10th level ability is a real joke. How many things should the 6th and 14th level abilities make up for? Why shouldn't each ability just feel like an actual contribution to play?
And how much are we going to value abilities from later levels, where campaigns tend to peter out? Some high level abilities are great, but if you only get to play with them for a few sessions, was it really worth walking around with an annoying exhaustion level or two while not using your 3rd level ability for most of the campaign?
4. The exhaustion levels aren't even a cool drawback, like some anime character pushing themselves beyond mortal limits at the cost of some later pain. Its almost impossible to actually die from unless the player actively pursues it so they can get a new character, since using frenzy to 3 levels of exhaustion is self defeating. If I want a character who burns out in a blaze of glory, its not going to be as the guy who has slowly died of exhaustion over the course of days and weeks like an over-worked fast food employee. Even if you think a self-destruction mechanic is a cool idea (and I think it is) you have to admit that exhaustion is the lamest version of that.
I would also point out that by level 15 the exhaustion becomes a non issue with Persistent Rage. Just keep your rage going til the next time you long rest.
Awww yeah!!!
Persistent Rage doesn't let you keep raging beyond a minute. It just means that it no longer ends early if yo go around without attacking someone or taking damage.
And once a barbarian gets infinite rages per day, I'd rule that as nothing says that you can burn rages to extend a single rage's duration you're instead just ending the rage and starting a new one, so you get a level of exhaustion each time.
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Each time you frenzy, not each time you rage. Not that you necessarily stated that, but making sure that no one interprets it that way.
Short answer: YES
Exhaustion accumulates and it is brutal. A LONG rest only gets rid of 1 level of exhaustion. So if you only used Frenzy twice, you wake up with 1 level of exhaustion.
If that day you use it twice again, the next day you wake up with 2 levels.
PAM gives you a bonus attack that only does 3 less damage, and does not punish you at all
There's a lot of back and forth about whether or not exhaustion is too punishing, or whether or not Frenzy is too unreliable since you really are only probably going to use it once per day, as opposed to other mechanics which show up a lot more frequently... but I think those still miss the real problem.
Frenzy is just not really great to begin with. The whole "low floor, high ceiling, limited use" conceit falls apart when the Zealot is right there doing pretty comparable damage and even getting a chance to zoom past the berserker if they have a source of bonus action damage, which isn't exactly hard to get.
A one and done Barbarian subclass that focuses on going all in once per day should at the very least be really good when it does, but the Berserker doesn't even have that.
To be honest, I'm surprised the optional features in TCoE didn't address this.
Given that the primary schtick of the subclass is the bonus action attack, with the charm/frighten immunity, frighten action and reaction attack coming later, you can accomplish all of this using a Conquest Paladin with PAM. And it doesn't involve any dump stats. And you can still cast spells.
I mean.. To quote Bruce Banner: "That's my secret Captain, I'm always angry".
A subclass still gets the main class abilities and the berserker can be immune to charmed and frightened condition and get that 3rd bonus attack all day... while still having resistance from slashing, piercing and bludgeoning constantly, and the added damage from rage along with advantage on strength checks and saves. Yes all barbarians get the later things but the point is that they also gain that extra attack with added damage and can do this all day, they don't need to rest....
Also that conquest paladin can be charmed AND run out of spells.
Actually if you just use the feat for gaining an invocation (the one where you don't need sleep) you can even frenzy forever ;D The rest of the party might have some issues sleeping with the barbarian walking around all pissed off, huffing and puffing around the camp though :p