No, it's not a bad subclass. Frenzied Rage isn't something intended to be used in every encounter. Neither is Rage, for that matter. The entire barbarian class is built around the idea of risk versus reward. Frenzy is incredibly powerful when invoked. Yes, it costs a point of exhaustion. So do it only once per day unless you have a means of alleviating it.
Let's look at two notable examples from LMoP: the Redbrand Hideout in the basement of Tressendar Manor and Wave Echo Cave. In the former, there are seven possible fights a 2nd-level party can get into. A barbarian running through there can only use Rage a grand total of two times. In the latter, there are multiple scripted encounters independent of random ones. Despite its size and 10-foot squares, it goes by pretty quickly. How many long rests do you think groups take down there?
No, it's not a bad subclass. Frenzied Rage isn't something intended to be used in every encounter. Neither is Rage, for that matter. The entire barbarian class is built around the idea of risk versus reward. Frenzy is incredibly powerful when invoked. Yes, it costs a point of exhaustion. So do it only once per day unless you have a means of alleviating it.
Let's look at two notable examples from LMoP: the Redbrand Hideout in the basement of Tressendar Manor and Wave Echo Cave. In the former, there are seven possible fights a 2nd-level party can get into. A barbarian running through there can only use Rage a grand total of two times. In the latter, there are multiple scripted encounters independent of random ones. Despite its size and 10-foot squares, it goes by pretty quickly. How many long rests do you think groups take down there?
I played a barbarian through LMoP. Yes, it was a zealot, but that's what fit the character story wise. Tresandar Manor I actually raged 3 times, but that's because we backed out to rest. I might have chosen to frenzy twice through there. We long rested twice in Wave Echo Cave, and I wouldn't have chosen to frenzy each time I raged in there. As for not raging every encounter, I only raged once through all of Cragmaw Castle because I just didn't need to do otherwise.
No, it's not a bad subclass. Frenzied Rage isn't something intended to be used in every encounter. Neither is Rage, for that matter. The entire barbarian class is built around the idea of risk versus reward. Frenzy is incredibly powerful when invoked. Yes, it costs a point of exhaustion. So do it only once per day unless you have a means of alleviating it.
Let's look at two notable examples from LMoP: the Redbrand Hideout in the basement of Tressendar Manor and Wave Echo Cave. In the former, there are seven possible fights a 2nd-level party can get into. A barbarian running through there can only use Rage a grand total of two times. In the latter, there are multiple scripted encounters independent of random ones. Despite its size and 10-foot squares, it goes by pretty quickly. How many long rests do you think groups take down there?
I played a barbarian through LMoP. Yes, it was a zealot, but that's what fit the character story wise. Tresandar Manor I actually raged 3 times, but that's because we backed out to rest. I might have chosen to frenzy twice through there. We long rested twice in Wave Echo Cave, and I wouldn't have chosen to frenzy each time I raged in there. As for not raging every encounter, I only raged once through all of Cragmaw Castle because I just didn't need to do otherwise.
Yeah, it's not for every fight. If you're fighting Venomfang at only 3rd-level, maybe. I played him being able to weave through the rafters of the tower as difficult terrain, so he could get height and blast the entire floor with his breath weapon as it recharged.
But when you do break it out, it blows feats like PAM out of the water.
No, it's not a bad subclass. Frenzied Rage isn't something intended to be used in every encounter. Neither is Rage, for that matter. The entire barbarian class is built around the idea of risk versus reward. Frenzy is incredibly powerful when invoked. Yes, it costs a point of exhaustion. So do it only once per day unless you have a means of alleviating it.
Let's look at two notable examples from LMoP: the Redbrand Hideout in the basement of Tressendar Manor and Wave Echo Cave. In the former, there are seven possible fights a 2nd-level party can get into. A barbarian running through there can only use Rage a grand total of two times. In the latter, there are multiple scripted encounters independent of random ones. Despite its size and 10-foot squares, it goes by pretty quickly. How many long rests do you think groups take down there?
I played a barbarian through LMoP. Yes, it was a zealot, but that's what fit the character story wise. Tresandar Manor I actually raged 3 times, but that's because we backed out to rest. I might have chosen to frenzy twice through there. We long rested twice in Wave Echo Cave, and I wouldn't have chosen to frenzy each time I raged in there. As for not raging every encounter, I only raged once through all of Cragmaw Castle because I just didn't need to do otherwise.
Yeah, it's not for every fight. If you're fighting Venomfang at only 3rd-level, maybe. I played him being able to weave through the rafters of the tower as difficult terrain, so he could get height and blast the entire floor with his breath weapon as it recharged.
But when you do break it out, it blows feats like PAM out of the water.
Venomfang is definitely a fight to break it out on. He nearly wiped the party, but we actually managed to defeat him. The DM had him retreat only to land on the roof of part of the building next to the tower and start chewing through to get us. The breath weapon knocked 1 to half HP and knocked out two others. I wasn't in the breath attack radius and neither was the warlock, but the characters needed new shorts after that.
Beginning at 15th level, your rage is so fierce that it ends early only if you fall unconscious or if you choose to end it.
I mean.. To quote Bruce Banner: "That's my secret Captain, I'm always angry".
A subclass still gets the main class abilities and the berserker can be immune to charmed and frightened condition and get that 3rd bonus attack all day... while still having resistance from slashing, piercing and bludgeoning constantly, and the added damage from rage along with advantage on strength checks and saves. Yes all barbarians get the later things but the point is that they also gain that extra attack with added damage and can do this all day, they don't need to rest....
Also that conquest paladin can be charmed AND run out of spells.
Actually if you just use the feat for gaining an invocation (the one where you don't need sleep) you can even frenzy forever ;D The rest of the party might have some issues sleeping with the barbarian walking around all pissed off, huffing and puffing around the camp though :p
Rage has a duration of one minute. Persistent Rage does not change that. Persistent Rage also doesn't change the fact that at 15th level, you can rage fro a grand total of five times per day. That means that you can stay angry for a grand total of five minutes. The idea that Persistent Rage lets you keep raging all day long is wrong. That is not how the ability works.
And even if it did work that way, it's a 15th level ability. Most campaigns end well before then, so it's still not a useful fix for all the Berserkers who are struggling with their self-debuffing class feature at 3rd-14th level.
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No, it's not a bad subclass. Frenzied Rage isn't something intended to be used in every encounter. Neither is Rage, for that matter. The entire barbarian class is built around the idea of risk versus reward. Frenzy is incredibly powerful when invoked. Yes, it costs a point of exhaustion. So do it only once per day unless you have a means of alleviating it.
Let's look at two notable examples from LMoP: the Redbrand Hideout in the basement of Tressendar Manor and Wave Echo Cave. In the former, there are seven possible fights a 2nd-level party can get into. A barbarian running through there can only use Rage a grand total of two times. In the latter, there are multiple scripted encounters independent of random ones. Despite its size and 10-foot squares, it goes by pretty quickly. How many long rests do you think groups take down there?
I played a barbarian through LMoP. Yes, it was a zealot, but that's what fit the character story wise. Tresandar Manor I actually raged 3 times, but that's because we backed out to rest. I might have chosen to frenzy twice through there. We long rested twice in Wave Echo Cave, and I wouldn't have chosen to frenzy each time I raged in there. As for not raging every encounter, I only raged once through all of Cragmaw Castle because I just didn't need to do otherwise.
Yeah, it's not for every fight. If you're fighting Venomfang at only 3rd-level, maybe. I played him being able to weave through the rafters of the tower as difficult terrain, so he could get height and blast the entire floor with his breath weapon as it recharged.
But when you do break it out, it blows feats like PAM out of the water.
Venomfang is definitely a fight to break it out on. He nearly wiped the party, but we actually managed to defeat him. The DM had him retreat only to land on the roof of part of the building next to the tower and start chewing through to get us. The breath weapon knocked 1 to half HP and knocked out two others. I wasn't in the breath attack radius and neither was the warlock, but the characters needed new shorts after that.
I'm personally of the opinion that Venomfang should be saved for after clearing the cave and hopefully picking up Dragonguard. I get why he's an option that early, but it feels like a trap.
If this were true I think the Frenzy barbarian would be a lot more appealing... but it just isn't.
The lack of appeal, as it were, is due to the opportunity cost of invoking the feature. Nobody likes dealing with exhaustion.
Having said that, the ability to invoke a whole other weapon attack, complete with adding your ability modifier to damage and rage bonus, is nothing to scoff at. Frenzied Rage, when invoked, has more raw DPR than any other barbarian subclass. Even factoring in their one-turn delay, they can match the Zealot in 4 rounds at 20th level. And that's without feats. More attacks mean a Berserker can invoke feats like Great Weapon Master for even more damage.
(And when you're that high, we should probably be factoring in their Relatiation. But for the purposes of this thought experiment, I won't.)
And the crazy thing is the Berserker can actually tank. With a decent Charisma modifier, they can invoke Intimidating Presence to reliably leave a foe frightened. And they can still get in a Frenzied Rage attack after doing so; since there's no stipulation they must Attack first. It won't work against every foe, but it's worth noting the Berserker isn't just a dumb brute.
And then there are setting-specific items, like olisuba leaf from EGW, that make it easier to recover from exhaustion.
The people who criticize it just balk at that 3rd-level feature and either scratch their head or, ironically, see red. I pity them.
Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
So the main class ability is just lackluster.
Why wouldn't you use it the first round? Or did you just mean the bonus attack? 'Cause activating frenzy doesn't take extra time.
Also, the good thing about the bonus action attack is that it can be used with a great weapon or whatever you want, so you can do 3 attacks/round with a great weapon dealing full damage. Not like dual wielders who needs both a feat and a weaponstyle to be even close. Even then, just comparing it with a greataxe it would be a d8 vs a d12. In addition you can take the great weapon master and instead of only getting that extra attack when you crit or down someone, you can do it each turn. At level 14 you even get an extra attack as a reaction, for some extra damage again. Now, while this might not be that much more damage than every other subclass, it's still pretty good, but the best thing about this subclass is immunity to charmed and frightened.
It would even work against someone who ambushed the party with a spell like that, because you could just chose to rage-frenzy and ignore the fact that they just charmed you. Dominate person, charm person, fear, hypnotic pattern, phantasmal killer and so on. Things that could take control of another barbarian, or the whole party, or just have them run in terror... Berserker can ignore, even when ambushed by it. That's really powerful. If spells like this never happen in your game, then yeah, sure, it's useless. But then again, barbarian rage is useless against constantly flying creatures only using psychic damage since not even a totem barbarian would resist that damage. Point being, charmed and frightened conditions come from MANY things and it should come up now and then, why wouldn't a necromancer cast fear on the party while his minions surround them?
And, eventually, barbarians get endless rage, by level 15 and onwards it only ends if they want it to. After this point, you can basically go around in a frenzy all the time, until you take the rest action, being immune to charmed and frightened and getting that extra attack all the time.
Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
So the main class ability is just lackluster.
You have to remember that frenzy stacks with GWM in that you can put the power attack on that attack as well. Comparing a GWM zealot with a GWM Berserker first round is in favor of the zealot since you'll have between 2d6+3+10+1d6+1=3d6+14 (average of 24.5) and (2d6+7+10)*2+1d6+10=5d6+44 (average of 61.5) for zealot vs 2d6+13 (average of 20) and 4d6+34 (average of 48).
After the first round, the zealot gets the bonus attack if it kills something or crits for an additional 20-24 damage while the berserker just gets that extra damage all the time during frenzy and can control when the bonus attack shows up at the beginning of the rage whereas the zealot has to potentially change what they are doing to get the bonus.
Brutal Critical also favors Berserker. The Berserker will have 6 chances per turn to roll a crit whereas the zealot may only get 4. This is an even bigger factor with a d12 weapon, since only the 1d6 gets doubled on a crit for zealot and brutal critical doesn't touch the 1d6. The crit also has to happen on the first attack for the 1d6 to get that increase. Granted, for berserker to get the bonus, it has to happen on the bonus attack since everything else is even. This is only a bonus if both builds get non crits on the 1st two attacks and no kills activate the bonus attack.
Further, there is no guarantee that the bonus action from GWM will activate when it can be used or when it's needed most, whereas the berserker can always ensure that the extra attack will be there. In order to get the zealot damage to land where you want and get the bonus attack, you'll sometimes have to apply damage where it's not as expedient to be applied to ensure everything goes where you want it.
Finally, getting GWM and/or PAM to get your bonus attack shoe horns you into using certain weapons whereas Berserker allows you to use whatever weapon you wish. I played as a GWM zealot who got Hew. I constantly had to decide whether to use my Greataxe to apply the power attack or Hew for the increased hit rate. The damage floor was better for Hew, the average damage was the same, and the max damage favored the Greataxe. The bonus action triggered for either weapon, but I still had to make choices that wouldn't have necessarily existed with Berserker if I hadn't taken GWM.
Yes, there are costs associated with taking Berserker, but that's no different than taking any subclass. Zealot can't get the resistances that bear totem can get. Most barbarians must take a feat to get a bonus action attack or be willing to deal a 1d6 damage on that attack unless they take a feat for dual wielder and/or fighting initiate. Doing a dip means no level 20 capstone, which may not be a big cost for most campaigns that never get there, but progression is a cost to factor there and pushing extra attack back a level or going for half the campaign without bonus action damage or with limited bonus action damage is a cost. Having to rely on feats to get that bonus action attack is a cost. Berserker can rely on PAM and GWM for its bonus action attacks most of the time and frenzy when they need that extra oomph or reliability. It does mean that they aren't getting the benefit of the third level ability in the other times, and that is a cost. However, barbarians aren't necessarily always raging either and I don't recall a third level ability that isn't usually a ribbon ability that isn't activated on a rage.
Berserker is fine as is. That doesn't mean that it has to appeal to everyone. Just because it is heavily maligned on threads doesn't mean that it needs to be adjusted since many people who like things don't bother talking about them, but people who don't like things are much more likely to voice their distaste.
If feats are on the table, then a Berserker isn't taking Polearm Master. They don't need it. This means a bigger weapon that, if you're assuming standard loot in a hardcover module, hardly includes any compatible weapons. There's no shortage of greataxes, [Tooltip Not Found], or [Tooltip Not Found], but anything bigger? Congrats, your PAM barbarian is wielding a shield.
It also means the Berserker has a free ASI that can go towards something else.
I think a big disconnect here is people flipping through the DMG, seeing the blurb about 6-8 medium to hard encounters per day, and assuming that means 6-8 medium to hard fights per day. It doesn't, but if that's how you play then, yeah, YMMV. The same can also be said for DMs who don't hand out the estimated 2-3 short rests per adventuring day, either.
People love the Bear Totem because it gives out all these resistances, but none of them matter unless you're taking that damage. Whether they're fighting a pack of ghouls, a manticore, or an orc war band, both barbarian subclasses (at least at 3rd-level) are on even footing. If you have the Wolf Totem, it does nothing unless others are making melee attacks against eligible targets. If everyone else is using ranged weapons, it's worthless. If you're not zipping around the battlefield with the Eagle Totem, then you're not using it. And, let's be honest, such a barbarian probably isn't using Reckless Attacks all that often, either. And since PAM conflicts with their BA Dash, that might be off the table, as well.
My point is there are lots of ways to play a barbarian. It's not all about dealing out damage, but with regards to dealing out damage, you can do a lot worse than the Berserker. Frenzied Rage is stupidly powerful; strong enough to keep up with a GW fighter with 4 attacks. Actually, they can do that just with their Retaliation at 14th-level. At 4 full attacks per turn, no one even comes close without also going nova.
And that's what Frenzied Rage is: a barbarian's nova ability that just also happens to last for up to 9 rounds.
Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
So the main class ability is just lackluster.
Why wouldn't you use it the first round? Or did you just mean the bonus attack? 'Cause activating frenzy doesn't take extra time.
Also, the good thing about the bonus action attack is that it can be used with a great weapon or whatever you want, so you can do 3 attacks/round with a great weapon dealing full damage. Not like dual wielders who needs both a feat and a weaponstyle to be even close. Even then, just comparing it with a greataxe it would be a d8 vs a d12. In addition you can take the great weapon master and instead of only getting that extra attack when you crit or down someone, you can do it each turn. At level 14 you even get an extra attack as a reaction, for some extra damage again. Now, while this might not be that much more damage than every other subclass, it's still pretty good, but the best thing about this subclass is immunity to charmed and frightened.
It would even work against someone who ambushed the party with a spell like that, because you could just chose to rage-frenzy and ignore the fact that they just charmed you. Dominate person, charm person, fear, hypnotic pattern, phantasmal killer and so on. Things that could take control of another barbarian, or the whole party, or just have them run in terror... Berserker can ignore, even when ambushed by it. That's really powerful. If spells like this never happen in your game, then yeah, sure, it's useless. But then again, barbarian rage is useless against constantly flying creatures only using psychic damage since not even a totem barbarian would resist that damage. Point being, charmed and frightened conditions come from MANY things and it should come up now and then, why wouldn't a necromancer cast fear on the party while his minions surround them?
And, eventually, barbarians get endless rage, by level 15 and onwards it only ends if they want it to. After this point, you can basically go around in a frenzy all the time, until you take the rest action, being immune to charmed and frightened and getting that extra attack all the time.
This has been said multiple times, but a rage only lasts one minute.
Persistent Rage
Beginning at 15th level, your rage is so fierce that it ends EARLY only if you fall unconscious or if you choose to end it.
Persistent rage only prevents the rage from ending early, it doesn't prevent it from ending. Further, there would be no point to having unlimited rages at 20 if persistent rage made it so that you only needed to have 1 rage. You actually get your sixth rage at 17th level, why wouldn't you just get unlimited rages at 15 if you only needed 1 most of the time anyway?
As for not using the bonus action attack during the first round that you rage, you can't because you've already used your bonus action to rage. Frenzy doesn't require anything extra, but it still requires that you rage.
If feats are on the table, then a Berserker isn't taking Polearm Master. They don't need it. This means a bigger weapon that, if you're assuming standard loot in a hardcover module, hardly includes any compatible weapons. There's no shortage of greataxes, [Tooltip Not Found], or [Tooltip Not Found], but anything bigger? Congrats, your PAM barbarian is wielding a shield.
It also means the Berserker has a free ASI that can go towards something else.
I think a big disconnect here is people flipping through the DMG, seeing the blurb about 6-8 medium to hard encounters per day, and assuming that means 6-8 medium to hard fights per day. It doesn't, but if that's how you play then, yeah, YMMV. The same can also be said for DMs who don't hand out the estimated 2-3 short rests per adventuring day, either.
People love the Bear Totem because it gives out all these resistances, but none of them matter unless you're taking that damage. Whether they're fighting a pack of ghouls, a manticore, or an orc war band, both barbarian subclasses (at least at 3rd-level) are on even footing. If you have the Wolf Totem, it does nothing unless others are making melee attacks against eligible targets. If everyone else is using ranged weapons, it's worthless. If you're not zipping around the battlefield with the Eagle Totem, then you're not using it. And, let's be honest, such a barbarian probably isn't using Reckless Attacks all that often, either. And since PAM conflicts with their BA Dash, that might be off the table, as well.
My point is there are lots of ways to play a barbarian. It's not all about dealing out damage, but with regards to dealing out damage, you can do a lot worse than the Berserker. Frenzied Rage is stupidly powerful; strong enough to keep up with a GW fighter with 4 attacks. Actually, they can do that just with their Retaliation at 14th-level. At 4 full attacks per turn, no one even comes close without also going nova.
And that's what Frenzied Rage is: a barbarian's nova ability that just also happens to last for up to 9 rounds.
Interesting comp on the nova ability. No one complains about paladins only getting one channel divinity to use per short rest and some of those are very situational. Maybe that's because everyone's smitten with Divine Smite.
Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
So the main class ability is just lackluster.
Why wouldn't you use it the first round? Or did you just mean the bonus attack? 'Cause activating frenzy doesn't take extra time.
Also, the good thing about the bonus action attack is that it can be used with a great weapon or whatever you want, so you can do 3 attacks/round with a great weapon dealing full damage. Not like dual wielders who needs both a feat and a weaponstyle to be even close. Even then, just comparing it with a greataxe it would be a d8 vs a d12. In addition you can take the great weapon master and instead of only getting that extra attack when you crit or down someone, you can do it each turn. At level 14 you even get an extra attack as a reaction, for some extra damage again. Now, while this might not be that much more damage than every other subclass, it's still pretty good, but the best thing about this subclass is immunity to charmed and frightened.
It would even work against someone who ambushed the party with a spell like that, because you could just chose to rage-frenzy and ignore the fact that they just charmed you. Dominate person, charm person, fear, hypnotic pattern, phantasmal killer and so on. Things that could take control of another barbarian, or the whole party, or just have them run in terror... Berserker can ignore, even when ambushed by it. That's really powerful. If spells like this never happen in your game, then yeah, sure, it's useless. But then again, barbarian rage is useless against constantly flying creatures only using psychic damage since not even a totem barbarian would resist that damage. Point being, charmed and frightened conditions come from MANY things and it should come up now and then, why wouldn't a necromancer cast fear on the party while his minions surround them?
And, eventually, barbarians get endless rage, by level 15 and onwards it only ends if they want it to. After this point, you can basically go around in a frenzy all the time, until you take the rest action, being immune to charmed and frightened and getting that extra attack all the time.
This has been said multiple times, but a rage only lasts one minute.
Persistent Rage
Beginning at 15th level, your rage is so fierce that it ends EARLY only if you fall unconscious or if you choose to end it.
Persistent rage only prevents the rage from ending early, it doesn't prevent it from ending. Further, there would be no point to having unlimited rages at 20 if persistent rage made it so that you only needed to have 1 rage. You actually get your sixth rage at 17th level, why wouldn't you just get unlimited rages at 15 if you only needed 1 most of the time anyway?
As for not using the bonus action attack during the first round that you rage, you can't because you've already used your bonus action to rage. Frenzy doesn't require anything extra, but it still requires that you rage.
Oh, yeah, you seem to be right ;D sad times, still you're correct but wrong. It would still have a point because even though you might be able to rage forever it might not always be proper, you could actually want to cast a spell, you could be put to sleep or similar (not the berserker but that ability is in general for all barbarians). You could simply be put down to 0 hitpoints, which, if you go into a frenzy is probably bound to happen sooner or later. So unlimited uses wouldn't be wasted.
Still, seems you're right in that it does only last a minute unfortunately. There goes a fun character idea I wasn't going to play anyways ;) But it still doesn't make it bad, just not as overpowered.
There's an easy way around it though, as long as you're a follower of Purphoros and get his hammer. Immune to exhaustion, easy. ;) Another easy way would be to simply become undead, no problems left in the world.
The people who criticize it just balk at that 3rd-level feature and either scratch their head or, ironically, see red. I pity them.
Yes of course, the people who don't like the subclass and point out its issues are clearly just dumb :> obviously.
I never said they were dumb. That insults both their intelligence and people who are mute.
For every good experience a customer has, they'll tell two people. For every bad experience, they'll tell five. People, by habit, complain and criticize more than they praise. The idiom may say, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease," but it doesn't really apply here. Complaining loudly and often does not mean something is actually wrong...or right. It means you're dissatisfied with how things currently are.
You can't please everybody, but that doesn't mean WotC hasn't been trying. There's a little something for everyone; even if you don't like everything in their books. You play what appeals to you and captures your interest. And finding something uninteresting is not a clarion call for change. Everyone's tastes are different. Let them be, and don't tell them they're wrong for liking something. Don't roll your eyes at what you think is garbage. It doesn't concern you. You wouldn't want any of us snooping through your browser history or watch list on Netflix, would you? Everyone has what someone else might call questionable tastes.
Sometimes the best thing we can do is set aside our own expectations and meeting the other on its terms; rather than our own.
Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
So the main class ability is just lackluster.
Why wouldn't you use it the first round? Or did you just mean the bonus attack? 'Cause activating frenzy doesn't take extra time.
Also, the good thing about the bonus action attack is that it can be used with a great weapon or whatever you want, so you can do 3 attacks/round with a great weapon dealing full damage. Not like dual wielders who needs both a feat and a weaponstyle to be even close. Even then, just comparing it with a greataxe it would be a d8 vs a d12. In addition you can take the great weapon master and instead of only getting that extra attack when you crit or down someone, you can do it each turn. At level 14 you even get an extra attack as a reaction, for some extra damage again. Now, while this might not be that much more damage than every other subclass, it's still pretty good, but the best thing about this subclass is immunity to charmed and frightened.
It would even work against someone who ambushed the party with a spell like that, because you could just chose to rage-frenzy and ignore the fact that they just charmed you. Dominate person, charm person, fear, hypnotic pattern, phantasmal killer and so on. Things that could take control of another barbarian, or the whole party, or just have them run in terror... Berserker can ignore, even when ambushed by it. That's really powerful. If spells like this never happen in your game, then yeah, sure, it's useless. But then again, barbarian rage is useless against constantly flying creatures only using psychic damage since not even a totem barbarian would resist that damage. Point being, charmed and frightened conditions come from MANY things and it should come up now and then, why wouldn't a necromancer cast fear on the party while his minions surround them?
And, eventually, barbarians get endless rage, by level 15 and onwards it only ends if they want it to. After this point, you can basically go around in a frenzy all the time, until you take the rest action, being immune to charmed and frightened and getting that extra attack all the time.
This has been said multiple times, but a rage only lasts one minute.
Persistent Rage
Beginning at 15th level, your rage is so fierce that it ends EARLY only if you fall unconscious or if you choose to end it.
Persistent rage only prevents the rage from ending early, it doesn't prevent it from ending. Further, there would be no point to having unlimited rages at 20 if persistent rage made it so that you only needed to have 1 rage. You actually get your sixth rage at 17th level, why wouldn't you just get unlimited rages at 15 if you only needed 1 most of the time anyway?
As for not using the bonus action attack during the first round that you rage, you can't because you've already used your bonus action to rage. Frenzy doesn't require anything extra, but it still requires that you rage.
Oh, yeah, you seem to be right ;D sad times, still you're correct but wrong. It would still have a point because even though you might be able to rage forever it might not always be proper, you could actually want to cast a spell, you could be put to sleep or similar (not the berserker but that ability is in general for all barbarians). You could simply be put down to 0 hitpoints, which, if you go into a frenzy is probably bound to happen sooner or later. So unlimited uses wouldn't be wasted.
Still, seems you're right in that it does only last a minute unfortunately. There goes a fun character idea I wasn't going to play anyways ;) But it still doesn't make it bad, just not as overpowered.
There's an easy way around it though, as long as you're a follower of Purphoros and get his hammer. Immune to exhaustion, easy. ;) Another easy way would be to simply become undead, no problems left in the world.
I'd hardly call acquiring a legendary artifact unique to one setting "easy". And not every undead is immune to exhaustion. Vampires aren't, and the template for Player Characters doesn't confer it, either. Earlier editions did, but this isn't those editions.
You can't please everybody, but that doesn't mean WotC hasn't been trying. There's a little something for everyone; even if you don't like everything in their books. You play what appeals to you and captures your interest. And finding something uninteresting is not a clarion call for change. Everyone's tastes are different. Let them be, and don't tell them they're wrong for liking something.
That's putting words in people's mouths. Most of the complaints I've seen haven't been about the archetype being uninteresting, but instead about issues with its balance and playability.
Basically, the Berserker's balance is perfectly fine assuming:
1. Your DM does not normally grant exhaustion outside of Frenzy (since it's really only balanced around 1-2 levels of exhaustion, if you already get that before you can use Frenzy, rip).
2. Your not fighting several boss battles back to back with a minute in-between. (Where a normal rage isn't enough)
3. You Frenzy at the boss battle and not against normal minions.
As a 1/LR ability, nearly doubling your DPS for the entire rage is pretty nice. The ability to push yourself and keep it lasting longer is thematic and even nicer, but comes with the huge drawback of "guess we'll either spend a ton of money or call a week off" which is realistic and makes sense. It's perfectly fine as a 1/LR ability anyways.
Edit: minor edits, yeah people generally don't like Berserker to 1/2, but those are campaign-specific and not too bad. If they do happen though, you'd be better off playing a different barbarian I agree.
No, it's not a bad subclass. Frenzied Rage isn't something intended to be used in every encounter. Neither is Rage, for that matter. The entire barbarian class is built around the idea of risk versus reward. Frenzy is incredibly powerful when invoked. Yes, it costs a point of exhaustion. So do it only once per day unless you have a means of alleviating it.
Let's look at two notable examples from LMoP: the Redbrand Hideout in the basement of Tressendar Manor and Wave Echo Cave. In the former, there are seven possible fights a 2nd-level party can get into. A barbarian running through there can only use Rage a grand total of two times. In the latter, there are multiple scripted encounters independent of random ones. Despite its size and 10-foot squares, it goes by pretty quickly. How many long rests do you think groups take down there?
I played a barbarian through LMoP. Yes, it was a zealot, but that's what fit the character story wise. Tresandar Manor I actually raged 3 times, but that's because we backed out to rest. I might have chosen to frenzy twice through there. We long rested twice in Wave Echo Cave, and I wouldn't have chosen to frenzy each time I raged in there. As for not raging every encounter, I only raged once through all of Cragmaw Castle because I just didn't need to do otherwise.
Yeah, it's not for every fight. If you're fighting Venomfang at only 3rd-level, maybe. I played him being able to weave through the rafters of the tower as difficult terrain, so he could get height and blast the entire floor with his breath weapon as it recharged.
But when you do break it out, it blows feats like PAM out of the water.
Venomfang is definitely a fight to break it out on. He nearly wiped the party, but we actually managed to defeat him. The DM had him retreat only to land on the roof of part of the building next to the tower and start chewing through to get us. The breath weapon knocked 1 to half HP and knocked out two others. I wasn't in the breath attack radius and neither was the warlock, but the characters needed new shorts after that.
Rage has a duration of one minute. Persistent Rage does not change that. Persistent Rage also doesn't change the fact that at 15th level, you can rage fro a grand total of five times per day. That means that you can stay angry for a grand total of five minutes. The idea that Persistent Rage lets you keep raging all day long is wrong. That is not how the ability works.
And even if it did work that way, it's a 15th level ability. Most campaigns end well before then, so it's still not a useful fix for all the Berserkers who are struggling with their self-debuffing class feature at 3rd-14th level.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'm personally of the opinion that Venomfang should be saved for after clearing the cave and hopefully picking up Dragonguard. I get why he's an option that early, but it feels like a trap.
If this were true I think the Frenzy barbarian would be a lot more appealing... but it just isn't.
The lack of appeal, as it were, is due to the opportunity cost of invoking the feature. Nobody likes dealing with exhaustion.
Having said that, the ability to invoke a whole other weapon attack, complete with adding your ability modifier to damage and rage bonus, is nothing to scoff at. Frenzied Rage, when invoked, has more raw DPR than any other barbarian subclass. Even factoring in their one-turn delay, they can match the Zealot in 4 rounds at 20th level. And that's without feats. More attacks mean a Berserker can invoke feats like Great Weapon Master for even more damage.
(And when you're that high, we should probably be factoring in their Relatiation. But for the purposes of this thought experiment, I won't.)
And the crazy thing is the Berserker can actually tank. With a decent Charisma modifier, they can invoke Intimidating Presence to reliably leave a foe frightened. And they can still get in a Frenzied Rage attack after doing so; since there's no stipulation they must Attack first. It won't work against every foe, but it's worth noting the Berserker isn't just a dumb brute.
And then there are setting-specific items, like olisuba leaf from EGW, that make it easier to recover from exhaustion.
The people who criticize it just balk at that 3rd-level feature and either scratch their head or, ironically, see red. I pity them.
Frenzy just isn't that strong though. You aren't using it most of the time you are raging, and the fight that you do save it for, you aren't even using it the first round. It might be the strongest 3rd level ability if it was just on for every rage without consequence... but it isn't, and there is a big gap because of that. Compared to other barbarian subclasses gaining an advantage in every combat they rage in, its already a sacrifice to play as though you have no 3rd level ability in 6/7 combats.
The cost of exhaustion after that is just extra punishment beyond having to make limited use of it.
And if we are going to bring up feats, then a bonus action attack is not so impressive. Yes, the full attack will have an average of 4-5 more damage than Pole Arm Master's d4, and more consistency than Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack. But both of those feats are also just always on without a punishment.
So the main class ability is just lackluster.
Why wouldn't you use it the first round? Or did you just mean the bonus attack? 'Cause activating frenzy doesn't take extra time.
Also, the good thing about the bonus action attack is that it can be used with a great weapon or whatever you want, so you can do 3 attacks/round with a great weapon dealing full damage. Not like dual wielders who needs both a feat and a weaponstyle to be even close. Even then, just comparing it with a greataxe it would be a d8 vs a d12. In addition you can take the great weapon master and instead of only getting that extra attack when you crit or down someone, you can do it each turn. At level 14 you even get an extra attack as a reaction, for some extra damage again. Now, while this might not be that much more damage than every other subclass, it's still pretty good, but the best thing about this subclass is immunity to charmed and frightened.
It would even work against someone who ambushed the party with a spell like that, because you could just chose to rage-frenzy and ignore the fact that they just charmed you. Dominate person, charm person, fear, hypnotic pattern, phantasmal killer and so on. Things that could take control of another barbarian, or the whole party, or just have them run in terror... Berserker can ignore, even when ambushed by it. That's really powerful. If spells like this never happen in your game, then yeah, sure, it's useless. But then again, barbarian rage is useless against constantly flying creatures only using psychic damage since not even a totem barbarian would resist that damage. Point being, charmed and frightened conditions come from MANY things and it should come up now and then, why wouldn't a necromancer cast fear on the party while his minions surround them?
And, eventually, barbarians get endless rage, by level 15 and onwards it only ends if they want it to. After this point, you can basically go around in a frenzy all the time, until you take the rest action, being immune to charmed and frightened and getting that extra attack all the time.
You have to remember that frenzy stacks with GWM in that you can put the power attack on that attack as well. Comparing a GWM zealot with a GWM Berserker first round is in favor of the zealot since you'll have between 2d6+3+10+1d6+1=3d6+14 (average of 24.5) and (2d6+7+10)*2+1d6+10=5d6+44 (average of 61.5) for zealot vs 2d6+13 (average of 20) and 4d6+34 (average of 48).
After the first round, the zealot gets the bonus attack if it kills something or crits for an additional 20-24 damage while the berserker just gets that extra damage all the time during frenzy and can control when the bonus attack shows up at the beginning of the rage whereas the zealot has to potentially change what they are doing to get the bonus.
Brutal Critical also favors Berserker. The Berserker will have 6 chances per turn to roll a crit whereas the zealot may only get 4. This is an even bigger factor with a d12 weapon, since only the 1d6 gets doubled on a crit for zealot and brutal critical doesn't touch the 1d6. The crit also has to happen on the first attack for the 1d6 to get that increase. Granted, for berserker to get the bonus, it has to happen on the bonus attack since everything else is even. This is only a bonus if both builds get non crits on the 1st two attacks and no kills activate the bonus attack.
Further, there is no guarantee that the bonus action from GWM will activate when it can be used or when it's needed most, whereas the berserker can always ensure that the extra attack will be there. In order to get the zealot damage to land where you want and get the bonus attack, you'll sometimes have to apply damage where it's not as expedient to be applied to ensure everything goes where you want it.
Finally, getting GWM and/or PAM to get your bonus attack shoe horns you into using certain weapons whereas Berserker allows you to use whatever weapon you wish. I played as a GWM zealot who got Hew. I constantly had to decide whether to use my Greataxe to apply the power attack or Hew for the increased hit rate. The damage floor was better for Hew, the average damage was the same, and the max damage favored the Greataxe. The bonus action triggered for either weapon, but I still had to make choices that wouldn't have necessarily existed with Berserker if I hadn't taken GWM.
Yes, there are costs associated with taking Berserker, but that's no different than taking any subclass. Zealot can't get the resistances that bear totem can get. Most barbarians must take a feat to get a bonus action attack or be willing to deal a 1d6 damage on that attack unless they take a feat for dual wielder and/or fighting initiate. Doing a dip means no level 20 capstone, which may not be a big cost for most campaigns that never get there, but progression is a cost to factor there and pushing extra attack back a level or going for half the campaign without bonus action damage or with limited bonus action damage is a cost. Having to rely on feats to get that bonus action attack is a cost. Berserker can rely on PAM and GWM for its bonus action attacks most of the time and frenzy when they need that extra oomph or reliability. It does mean that they aren't getting the benefit of the third level ability in the other times, and that is a cost. However, barbarians aren't necessarily always raging either and I don't recall a third level ability that isn't usually a ribbon ability that isn't activated on a rage.
Berserker is fine as is. That doesn't mean that it has to appeal to everyone. Just because it is heavily maligned on threads doesn't mean that it needs to be adjusted since many people who like things don't bother talking about them, but people who don't like things are much more likely to voice their distaste.
If feats are on the table, then a Berserker isn't taking Polearm Master. They don't need it. This means a bigger weapon that, if you're assuming standard loot in a hardcover module, hardly includes any compatible weapons. There's no shortage of greataxes, [Tooltip Not Found], or [Tooltip Not Found], but anything bigger? Congrats, your PAM barbarian is wielding a shield.
It also means the Berserker has a free ASI that can go towards something else.
I think a big disconnect here is people flipping through the DMG, seeing the blurb about 6-8 medium to hard encounters per day, and assuming that means 6-8 medium to hard fights per day. It doesn't, but if that's how you play then, yeah, YMMV. The same can also be said for DMs who don't hand out the estimated 2-3 short rests per adventuring day, either.
People love the Bear Totem because it gives out all these resistances, but none of them matter unless you're taking that damage. Whether they're fighting a pack of ghouls, a manticore, or an orc war band, both barbarian subclasses (at least at 3rd-level) are on even footing. If you have the Wolf Totem, it does nothing unless others are making melee attacks against eligible targets. If everyone else is using ranged weapons, it's worthless. If you're not zipping around the battlefield with the Eagle Totem, then you're not using it. And, let's be honest, such a barbarian probably isn't using Reckless Attacks all that often, either. And since PAM conflicts with their BA Dash, that might be off the table, as well.
My point is there are lots of ways to play a barbarian. It's not all about dealing out damage, but with regards to dealing out damage, you can do a lot worse than the Berserker. Frenzied Rage is stupidly powerful; strong enough to keep up with a GW fighter with 4 attacks. Actually, they can do that just with their Retaliation at 14th-level. At 4 full attacks per turn, no one even comes close without also going nova.
And that's what Frenzied Rage is: a barbarian's nova ability that just also happens to last for up to 9 rounds.
This has been said multiple times, but a rage only lasts one minute.
Persistent Rage
Beginning at 15th level, your rage is so fierce that it ends EARLY only if you fall unconscious or if you choose to end it.
Persistent rage only prevents the rage from ending early, it doesn't prevent it from ending. Further, there would be no point to having unlimited rages at 20 if persistent rage made it so that you only needed to have 1 rage. You actually get your sixth rage at 17th level, why wouldn't you just get unlimited rages at 15 if you only needed 1 most of the time anyway?
As for not using the bonus action attack during the first round that you rage, you can't because you've already used your bonus action to rage. Frenzy doesn't require anything extra, but it still requires that you rage.
Interesting comp on the nova ability. No one complains about paladins only getting one channel divinity to use per short rest and some of those are very situational. Maybe that's because everyone's smitten with Divine Smite.
Yes of course, the people who don't like the subclass and point out its issues are clearly just dumb :> obviously.
Oh, yeah, you seem to be right ;D sad times, still you're correct but wrong. It would still have a point because even though you might be able to rage forever it might not always be proper, you could actually want to cast a spell, you could be put to sleep or similar (not the berserker but that ability is in general for all barbarians). You could simply be put down to 0 hitpoints, which, if you go into a frenzy is probably bound to happen sooner or later. So unlimited uses wouldn't be wasted.
Still, seems you're right in that it does only last a minute unfortunately. There goes a fun character idea I wasn't going to play anyways ;) But it still doesn't make it bad, just not as overpowered.
There's an easy way around it though, as long as you're a follower of Purphoros and get his hammer. Immune to exhaustion, easy. ;) Another easy way would be to simply become undead, no problems left in the world.
I never said they were dumb. That insults both their intelligence and people who are mute.
For every good experience a customer has, they'll tell two people. For every bad experience, they'll tell five. People, by habit, complain and criticize more than they praise. The idiom may say, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease," but it doesn't really apply here. Complaining loudly and often does not mean something is actually wrong...or right. It means you're dissatisfied with how things currently are.
You can't please everybody, but that doesn't mean WotC hasn't been trying. There's a little something for everyone; even if you don't like everything in their books. You play what appeals to you and captures your interest. And finding something uninteresting is not a clarion call for change. Everyone's tastes are different. Let them be, and don't tell them they're wrong for liking something. Don't roll your eyes at what you think is garbage. It doesn't concern you. You wouldn't want any of us snooping through your browser history or watch list on Netflix, would you? Everyone has what someone else might call questionable tastes.
Sometimes the best thing we can do is set aside our own expectations and meeting the other on its terms; rather than our own.
I'd hardly call acquiring a legendary artifact unique to one setting "easy". And not every undead is immune to exhaustion. Vampires aren't, and the template for Player Characters doesn't confer it, either. Earlier editions did, but this isn't those editions.
That's putting words in people's mouths. Most of the complaints I've seen haven't been about the archetype being uninteresting, but instead about issues with its balance and playability.
Basically, the Berserker's balance is perfectly fine assuming:
1. Your DM does not normally grant exhaustion outside of Frenzy (since it's really only balanced around 1-2 levels of exhaustion, if you already get that before you can use Frenzy, rip).
2. Your not fighting several boss battles back to back with a minute in-between. (Where a normal rage isn't enough)
3. You Frenzy at the boss battle and not against normal minions.
As a 1/LR ability, nearly doubling your DPS for the entire rage is pretty nice. The ability to push yourself and keep it lasting longer is thematic and even nicer, but comes with the huge drawback of "guess we'll either spend a ton of money or call a week off" which is realistic and makes sense. It's perfectly fine as a 1/LR ability anyways.
Edit: minor edits, yeah people generally don't like Berserker to 1/2, but those are campaign-specific and not too bad. If they do happen though, you'd be better off playing a different barbarian I agree.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.