As a DM, there are certain subclasses that I do have to rejigger because they “lag behind” and I want their players to feel as badass as the rest of the table. I shouldn’t have to rejigger this much.
Well dang, Im not demanding my barbarian have expertise. Just not having disadvantage on all abilitiy checks as the very least cost for using my level 3 ability.
It's not a cost at all if you long rest soon afterwards, or if your party has Greater Restoration, or Enhance Ability, or if you just leave ability checks to someone else. Your problem seems to be that you want everything for free.
I never said it was complicated, just excessively punishing compared to any other ability of any other class or subclass. Its too steep a price to be worthwhile (unless you just enjoy a challenge and want a handicap).
Except that it's only a steep cost when you demand that it have no penalty at all. You make it a steep cost by placing requirements on a class to be good in your view that have nothing to do with what it's geared towards.
The difference is that getting healed of a condition like fear/charm is a problem that comes from outside. Exhaustion is a problem your character causes themselves.
And the party question is just odd when we are considering frenzy anyways, because we could just say "well, if you're depending on a spellcaster to fix you, might as well be a better subclass and have someone cast haste on you."
Going a "better" sub-class won't get you the highest number of attacks of any Barbarian sub-class, or immunity to Charmed/Frightened etc. And relying on other party members is normal for an adventuring party, just as the Wizard benefits from the Barbarian tanking why shouldn't one player expect help or a boost another? The party as a whole benefits by helping the Berserker use their Frenzied Rage as often as possible, because it means more attacks and more damage, more of the time.
But Berserker isn't the only one with access to a third attack. Fighters get it, any melee class can get it with haste cast on them, any one with two weapon fighting along with hex/hunters mark can do it along with similar damage. And none of them get anything like the downside that the Berserker gets. When they get spells cast on them, its to buff them or heal them or remove an effect that enemies gave them, not fix their own self-destruct button.
Fighter doesn't get a third attack until 11th level, and Berserker is the only Barbarian sub-class with a third full attack. As for the rest of your examples, these are all things the Berserker can get as well; you're insisting that Berserkers must operate with no help from anyone ever, yet you're arguing that other martial characters having Haste cast on them invalidates the Berserker? You make one argument one moment, then completely contradict it in the next, exactly as you did on Way of the Kensei.
That is bull. You already admitted that exhaustion is a limited resource, just like the battlemaster dice or spell slots. Eventually your character becomes more and more useless, and then dies.
I also didn't say it was infinite. I'm getting really sick of your bad faith arguing; you refuse to accept an argument, then use precisely the same argument for yourself, and then you just plain make stuff up! You're effectively arguing with yourself at this point.
Well dang, who told me that frenzy is a limited resource to be managed?
Case in point. If you want to argue with yourself, do it offline, I've been very clear in what I'm actually saying if you'd actually bother to read any of it properly.
If you have to depend on greater restoration, you are planning to make your spellcaster weaker by default by limiting what they can do, and even then you have to wait for them to have 5th level spell slots
No, I'm pointing out the options available, of which that is only one, and only required when you need it. I also pointed out numerous others which you've very conspicuously, and no doubt purposefully, ignore. Re-read my posts if you're actually interested in arguing an actual point.
You can't just disregard randomness when a key factor is quantity of attacks, because otherwise your comparison is pointless, which it was, as I tried to explain and you've ignored.
You assume the berserker does have more chances to inflict their brutal critical in the long run. If we ackowledge that exhaustion exists, then assuming 3-4 fights a session, then the berserker only uses their bonus attack 9 times, not use it at all to cool down exhaustion levels, or use it more than more but except that they will be using reckless attack just to avoid disadvantage. Check the math; a weaker bonus attack that is just used in every fight all the time in a session will lead to more damage overall.
You're assuming that damage only matters in aggregate, but if we're talking 3-4 fights then 2-3 of those may be against weaker enemies where a critical makes little real difference. You're absolutely determined to make only the comparisons that make your case, while ignoring any that don't.
Not once have I claimed that the Berserker does the most damage of any Barbarian or martial class over a prolonged period, yet that's the only thing you seem interested in arguing. You also seem to be completely, maybe even physically, incapable of grasping that you don't have to use Frenzied Rage in every fight for it to still be a great ability in the fight(s) that you do use it; your argument is ideological.
Other Barbarian sub-classes do do more damage over a long period, so what? In a battle with a dragon your damage over 50 rounds doesn't matter one bit if you're going to be dead if you can't bring the enemy down in six.
Again, if we are talking outside help, haste is better than frenzy for cheaper.
And again, if we're assuming handing out Haste is fine then Haste + Frenzy is even better. You can't have it both ways. I realise you've only said it to try to trap me into your inevitable response of "but you can't cast Haste and Greater Restoration", to which my answer is; so don't, because you don't have to, and I've already explained why multiple times, you've just ignored it multiple times as well.
But the point stands that with outside help other barbarian subclasses can be made better than the berserker for less cost, and without just fixing what they do to themselves. Without outside help, the berserker is just has 2 trash abilities.
No it doesn't, it has abilities that suit what it is, and they work perfectly fine. And it doesn't require outside assistance, as I have explained multiple times already. If you don't want to accumulate exhaustion, well here's the part that's really going to blow your mind; Frenzied Rage doesn't replace regular Rage, you can choose which one to use! I know right? Stunning, why didn't you realise that sooner? Well now that's an excellent question, because loads of class abilities are best used at the right time, yet apparently Berserker's aren't allowed to use theirs in that way, they must be able to use it every turn at zero cost.
And this seems to be the crux of the problem; for some unknown reason you are incapable of grasping that a Barbarian is already a really good class, and you don't lose anything from it by going a Berserker. In fact you gain abilities that are extremely good when you actually use them properly.
But I'm sick of the bad faith arguments; you've already decided (or been told) to hate the class and that's what you seem determined to do. You've spent more time arguing against yourself than actually arguing any point that I've raised. So exactly as I've had to do on the Way of the Kensei thread all I can do is urge you to actually read what I've written, rather than what you've imagined that I've said, because until you do this going nowhere.
As a DM, there are certain subclasses that I do have to rejigger because they “lag behind” and I want their players to feel as badass as the rest of the table. I shouldn’t have to rejigger this much.
"This much"? One ability? By doing what exactly? Letting the group take a couple of days of downtime after a difficult dungeon?
You must have some serious min-maxing going on with the other players if a Barbarian is lagging behind, because a Barbarian without any sub-class abilities is still good at combat.
Fighter doesn't get a third attack until 11th level, and Berserker is the only Barbarian sub-class with a third full attack. As for the rest of your examples, these are all things the Berserker can get as well; you're insisting that Berserkers must operate with no help from anyone ever, yet you're arguing that other martial characters having Haste cast on them invalidates the Berserker? You make one argument one moment, then completely contradict it in the next, exactly as you did on Way of the Kensei.
Every other barb can just be buffed with one spell to increase how much better they are over the beserker. The beserker needs to have spells used on them to make them be on par with (or somewhat ahead) the other barbs, mecahnically. That is what it comes down to: the beserker needing to be corrected, while other barbs can just be buffed.
I also didn't say it was infinite. I'm getting really sick of your bad faith arguing; you refuse to accept an argument, then use precisely the same argument for yourself, and then you just plain make stuff up! You're effectively arguing with yourself at this point.
"I never said any such thing; you can use Frenzied Rage for ever single Rage if you want to, and are willing to pay the price for it (or can mitigate it)."
Make up your mind: can you use it as much as you want, or is there a hard finite limit? You keep going back and forth on this. Talk about bad faith argument!
No, I'm pointing out the options available, of which that is only one, and only required when you need it. I also pointed out numerous others which you've very conspicuously, and no doubt purposefully, ignore. Re-read my posts if you're actually interested in arguing an actual point.
Ok, then let me respond to the available options, or talk about a scenario where you don't talk a cleric friend into constantly fixing your subclass' harsh drawback. If I talk about the options, you say "but we can layer on more options." If I talk about a scenario stripped of depending on a spellcaster, you go back to the options. Its not convincing anyone, its not a good argument. Its just avoiding the mechanical problems you refuse to address.
I mean you even admit that the beast master hunter has mechanical issues related to the stats of the animal companion and the class' abilities. Why don't you say "but spells can fix the issue!"? Because you know that if you have to actively "fix" a subclass to make it balanced in play, it has issues.
You can't just disregard randomness when a key factor is quantity of attacks, because otherwise your comparison is pointless, which it was, as I tried to explain and you've ignored.
There is no accounting for randomness either, which goes both ways uselessly. My berserker could miss every hit, while your battlerager crits 10 times in a row. We can look at averages, assuming the law of averages will give us a good sense of what would happen. We can't magic up any meaningful calculation for "what if the odds are defied?" Or maybe you are some statistician or engineer, and you can imagine something like that. If so, please let me know. Otherwise, deciding we can't use averages is tantamount to "lets just imagine a perfect enough scenario to justify my point..."
Frenzied Rage doesn't replace regular Rage,
Wow, a point I've not once made, what an honest argument. I agree, there should be some limit to frenzy so its not broken. Frenzy stands in for every other 3rd level ability that other barbs get. On that balance, its trash. It doesn't even do what you and I agree it should do (act as a kind of badass trump card) without a disproportionate cost to any other ability in the entire game in terms of how long it lasts.
...Im done. Go one thinking whatever you want for whatever lack of reason you want.
Fighter doesn't get a third attack until 11th level, and Berserker is the only Barbarian sub-class with a third full attack. As for the rest of your examples, these are all things the Berserker can get as well; you're insisting that Berserkers must operate with no help from anyone ever, yet you're arguing that other martial characters having Haste cast on them invalidates the Berserker? You make one argument one moment, then completely contradict it in the next, exactly as you did on Way of the Kensei.
Every other barb can just be buffed with one spell to increase how much better they are over the beserker. The beserker needs to have spells used on them to make them be on par with (or somewhat ahead) the other barbs, mecahnically. That is what it comes down to: the beserker needing to be corrected, while other barbs can just be buffed.
I also didn't say it was infinite. I'm getting really sick of your bad faith arguing; you refuse to accept an argument, then use precisely the same argument for yourself, and then you just plain make stuff up! You're effectively arguing with yourself at this point.
"I never said any such thing; you can use Frenzied Rage for ever single Rage if you want to, and are willing to pay the price for it (or can mitigate it)."
Make up your mind: can you use it as much as you want, or is there a hard finite limit? You keep going back and forth on this. Talk about bad faith argument!
No, I'm pointing out the options available, of which that is only one, and only required when you need it. I also pointed out numerous others which you've very conspicuously, and no doubt purposefully, ignore. Re-read my posts if you're actually interested in arguing an actual point.
Ok, then let me respond to the available options, or talk about a scenario where you don't talk a cleric friend into constantly fixing your subclass' harsh drawback. If I talk about the options, you say "but we can layer on more options." If I talk about a scenario stripped of depending on a spellcaster, you go back to the options. Its not convincing anyone, its not a good argument. Its just avoiding the mechanical problems you refuse to address.
I mean you even admit that the beast master hunter has mechanical issues related to the stats of the animal companion and the class' abilities. Why don't you say "but spells can fix the issue!"? Because you know that if you have to actively "fix" a subclass to make it balanced in play, it has issues.
You can't just disregard randomness when a key factor is quantity of attacks, because otherwise your comparison is pointless, which it was, as I tried to explain and you've ignored.
There is no accounting for randomness either, which goes both ways uselessly. My berserker could miss every hit, while your battlerager crits 10 times in a row. We can look at averages, assuming the law of averages will give us a good sense of what would happen. We can't magic up any meaningful calculation for "what if the odds are defied?" Or maybe you are some statistician or engineer, and you can imagine something like that. If so, please let me know. Otherwise, deciding we can't use averages is tantamount to "lets just imagine a perfect enough scenario to justify my point..."
Frenzied Rage doesn't replace regular Rage,
Wow, a point I've not once made, what an honest argument. I agree, there should be some limit to frenzy so its not broken. Frenzy stands in for every other 3rd level ability that other barbs get. On that balance, its trash. It doesn't even do what you and I agree it should do (act as a kind of badass trump card) without a disproportionate cost to any other ability in the entire game in terms of how long it lasts.
...Im done. Go one thinking whatever you want for whatever lack of reason you want.
There is so much wrong with this post...
Adding a Haste spell was addressed by the previous poster - Haste + Frenzy > Haste + No Frenzy. Fallacious argument.
Mechanically deficient? So let's take a Bear Totem Barbarian running up against Orc armies without elemental damage. In this scenario, the Berserker AT LEAST has the option to use Frenzy and get more attacks, your Bear Totem Barb is literally a useless 3rd level Feat. By your logic, Bear Totem Barbarians are literally the worst Barbarian class in the game. Of course, then you'd argue "But at higher levels the enemies will have Fireball and elemental damage is more common!" - to which the *standard reply* is "Yeah, just like Fear and Charm become more prevalent later on in the game?" Again, another fallacious argument.
Usage of Frenzy - it is entirely up to the PC how they want to use it. Do they save it for the BBEG? They can. Do they use it once before the BBEG and once during? They can. Do they use it in every battle possible and die quickly? They can. The point is ALWAYS that this is a *choice* for the PC and at it's very *basic* the PC could just decide to NEVER use Frenzy and just be the equivalent of a regular Barbarian from 3-6. Examples that say "OMG They're gonna die!" or "OMG they'll never use it" are extreme edges of that scale and arguments made about them are also fallacious.
Regarding Spellcasting - Greater Restoration has an effect on exhaustion, and Berserkers are the only class that take exhaustion effects. The only argument we've been making is that it is POSSIBLE to reverse the effects and restore the usage of this ability quite easily between Long Rests. No one is claiming that we should be *expecting* or *requiring* it, just that it exists and *can* be affected by it. Arguments that assume anything else are also fallacious.
You can absolutely use stats to make a point. Statistically, the Berserk with Frenzy will do more damage than your Bear Totem without Frenzy. And significantly so. If they don't use Frenzy, they will likely do the same amount of damage. Randomness exists, but so does probability and I don't think you've addressed the actual damage difference at all. If you want to argue stats, choose some class combinations and I'll compare the stats for you.
As a DM, there are certain subclasses that I do have to rejigger because they “lag behind” and I want their players to feel as badass as the rest of the table. I shouldn’t have to rejigger this much.
"This much"? One ability? By doing what exactly? Letting the group take a couple of days of downtime after a difficult dungeon?
You must have some serious min-maxing going on with the other players if a Barbarian is lagging behind, because a Barbarian without any sub-class abilities is still good at combat.
A barbarian with no subclass is better than a Berserker because they don’t have 2-3 levels of exhaustion. Because in my dungeons, every fight is deadly, and they are usually either under a ticking clock, or the random encounters probability is higher, so resting is sometimes almost as risky as pressing forward. That’s why o give XP for everything, I expect them to avoid combat as often as engage in it.
And yes, I houseruled that the PC can make a Con save to avoid the Exhaustion. I don’t have to rejigger any other Barbarians, just these.
Adding a Haste spell was addressed by the previous poster - Haste + Frenzy > Haste + No Frenzy. Fallacious argument.
You misunderstand the conversation.
The comparison isn't frenzy and haste vs generic barb and haste, its frenzy and multiple castings of greater restoration vs. generic barb with haste. If we are going to theory craft layering buffs on a subclass, we would be having a different argument.
One is purely buffed, the other needs a 5th level spell slot to not be punished for using their level 3 ability. And no berserker is getting that greater restoration unless the party has a cleric/druid, and not until level 9, and then just once.
Mechanically deficient? So let's take a Bear Totem Barbarian running up against Orc armies without elemental damage. In this scenario, the Berserker AT LEAST has the option to use Frenzy and get more attacks, your Bear Totem Barb is literally a useless 3rd level Feat. By your logic, Bear Totem Barbarians are literally the worst Barbarian class in the game. Of course, then you'd argue "But at higher levels the enemies will have Fireball and elemental damage is more common!" - to which the *standard reply* is "Yeah, just like Fear and Charm become more prevalent later on in the game?" Again, another fallacious argument.
Ideally, that is how the situation would play out in the very first session that you have access to frenzy, or after just not using your base class ability for a few sessions to rest up exhaustion levels, or in a one shot. But more realistically, my berserker will already have at least one level of exhaustion if they aren't heavily rationing their ability.
Meanwhile, most other barbarians are always just as good in that situation. They don't self-destruct from constantly cripple themselves with their lvl 3 abilities.
The Bear totem is one the exceptions because they trade for a wider resistance to damage, which is on every time the rage, and will almost always find use every session without a penalty like exhaustion hanging over their head. (their level 10 abilities to choose from, while not broken, also aren't a joke.)
Usage of Frenzy - it is entirely up to the PC how they want to use it. Do they save it for the BBEG? They can. Do they use it once before the BBEG and once during? They can. Do they use it in every battle possible and die quickly? They can. The point is ALWAYS that this is a *choice* for the PC and at it's very *basic* the PC could just decide to NEVER use Frenzy and just be the equivalent of a regular Barbarian from 3-6. Examples that say "OMG They're gonna die!" or "OMG they'll never use it" are extreme edges of that scale and arguments made about them are also fallacious.
They can play as though they have no lvl 3 subclass ability... but that makes it a bad subclass.
Using it only for special occasions, also just points out the issue every other barbarian gets to use their level 3 abilities all the time, with no punishment.
And even if the ability is only meant to be saved like that... then why bring in exhaustion at all? Why not make it a limited resource like blade song that comes back on a long rest? It does the same thing, but by imposing exhaustion to force that choice. A debuff so strong, no generic monster even causes it.
You can absolutely use stats to make a point. Statistically, the Berserk with Frenzy will do more damage than your Bear Totem without Frenzy. And significantly so. If they don't use Frenzy, they will likely do the same amount of damage. Randomness exists, but so does probability and I don't think you've addressed the actual damage difference at all. If you want to argue stats, choose some class combinations and I'll compare the stats for you.
The totem warrior trades a lvl 3 damage ability for other benefits, such as resistance to most forms of damage, or giving their allies constant advantage against enemies near them.
If you want to compare the lvl 3 beserker to the lvl 3bear totem, then the beserker gets no constant defensive buff added to their rage. Instantly trash, right? No.
A better comparison is between berserker and other barbarians with damaging lvl 3 abilities. And other subclasses with damaging abilities aren't terribly far behind the beserker, while constantly doing their bonus damage without one of the most debilitating debuffs in the game.
How good does it feel to have saved up your frenzies for the big bad if your party is lower on spell slots or hp, because not having a constant extra cantrip, dagger stab, or free advantage for allies worth of damage each round led to the fight before being harder than it needed to be? How good is Frenzy if you go down halfway through a rage, get back up, and have to decide if you're going to even use it again the whole fight considering you could be knocked right back out of it again with no benefit but more exhaustion?
And again, if it was just are- allotment of when you are doing your damage, frenzy would just be different, just like comparing defensive abilities to offensive abilities. But exhaustion makes it that, but also needlessly punishing.
I never said Berserkers don't get immunity to Fear/charm. If you actually read this thread, I've admitted it several times. Its a good, strong ability. I would agree with Haravik and consider it the main ability of the sub-class, because the 3rd and 10th level abilities are so bad.
And as I already pointed to, Berzerkers only do more damage when they do choose to frenzy with only (about 50% more), but also have a debuff on top of that. Not using their ability every encounter is already more than enough compensation. If we were concerned with who does the most consistent damage over a session, Berserker would lose.
They would be balanced if they got progressing uses of their frenzy over the course of lvls 3-20, from 1 use to something like 3 or 4 at 16. or maybe even just having a hard cut off like blade singer. But the exhaustion on top of that is too much punishment to be balanced. maybe not too much for someone to subjectively decide they want that additional handicap, but comparing the subclasses and the standard WotC established.
Also, side note: the kensei thing you see coming up repeatedly was about a difference of 1-2 points of damage being traded for 2 AC, and how I was told it wouldn't work to just let both of those things happen at the same time because it would make kensei too good of a monk subclass. This discussion is about a subclass potentially losing out on hundreds of points damage dealt a session to reassign a fraction of that to one specific encounter, and being punished on top of that. So like: does balance between subclasses matter at all, or not? I understand subclasses doing different things, but not being objectively worse than one another on balance to this degree.
Thats a good fix. It makes sense given that you get to make a con save to avoid exhaustion when using a powerful magical artifact that rips apart time and space, but that swinging your greatsword a little faster in the space of a minute for the 100th time is just automatic exhaustion.
Thats a good fix. It makes sense given that you get to make a con save to avoid exhaustion when using a powerful magical artifact that rips apart time and space, but that swinging your greatsword a little faster in the space of a minute for the 100th time is just automatic exhaustion.
The comparison isn't frenzy and haste vs generic barb and haste, its frenzy and multiple castings of greater restoration vs. generic barb with haste. If we are going to theory craft layering buffs on a subclass, we would be having a different argument.
One is purely buffed, the other needs a 5th level spell slot to not be punished for using their level 3 ability. And no berserker is getting that greater restoration unless the party has a cleric/druid, and not until level 9, and then just once.
No, I didn't misunderstand anything. I clarified down below about spellcasting and that Frenzy can be negated by Greater Restoration but never needs to be. You keep bringing up the comparison because you want to assume that some Cleric is downing Greater Restoration just to make your argument work. The "punishment" for using Frenzy is merely Ability Check disadvantage. Your Barbarian is often required to do one thing with his skill checks and that's Athletics, which even with disadvantage isn't that big of a heal to overcome. Your assessment that somehow this is gamebreaking to the Barbarian is disingenuous.
Ideally, that is how the situation would play out in the very first session that you have access to frenzy, or after just not using your base class ability for a few sessions to rest up exhaustion levels, or in a one shot. But more realistically, my berserker will already have at least one level of exhaustion if they aren't heavily rationing their ability.
That's the entire point of Frenzy - to heavily ration. It's not a revelation. If you go an entire session without a single elemental attack, your Bear Totem is irrelevant. In contrast, if the team is fighting the BBEG and the Berserker uses Frenzy, he is almost doubling his output in damage over your normal Barbarian.
Your Berserker is poorly played if you're not rationing like you should with this ability.
Meanwhile, most other barbarians are always just as good in that situation. They don't self-destruct from constantly cripple themselves with their lvl 3 abilities.
The Bear totem is one the exceptions because they trade for a wider resistance to damage, which is on every time the rage, and will almost always find use every session without a penalty like exhaustion hanging over their head. (their level 10 abilities to choose from, while not broken, also aren't a joke.)
Again, with your outlandish claims that a Frenzy Barbarian will "self-destruct from constantly cripple themselves". It's like talking to a wall. You addressed above in your own comment about "heavily rationing" the use of Frenzy and that's precisely what a Berserker player does. And disadvantage on Athletics is not crippling. Even Speed Halved might not be crippling, but I'll leave that one out for this discussion.
They can play as though they have no lvl 3 subclass ability... but that makes it a bad subclass.
Using it only for special occasions, also just points out the issue every other barbarian gets to use their level 3 abilities all the time, with no punishment.
And even if the ability is only meant to be saved like that... then why bring in exhaustion at all? Why not make it a limited resource like blade song that comes back on a long rest? It does the same thing, but by imposing exhaustion to force that choice. A debuff so strong, no generic monster even causes it.
They can, but they don't. They use Frenzy on the big baddies just fine. Do you know why there is such a big punishment for this 3rd level feature? Because it's downright overpowered.
From the linked article (if you had read it):
A 2-handed Barb without Rage does 5.8 /6.4 /12.8 average damage from levels 3 to 5.
A 2-handed Barb with Rage and Reckless does 10.1 /10.9 / 21.8 average damage from 3 to 5.
A 2-handed Barb with Frenzy and Reckless does 20.1 / 21.8 / 32.7 average damage from 3 to 5.
Does that make sense? Frenzy almost doubles the damage from regular Rage at level 3 and 4, and adds 50% damage at level 5. At level 6 you become immune to Fear and Charm and you have covered the gap admirably.
Your argument as to "why not make it a limited resource that comes back on a long rest?" Because then you have the option then of actually doing taking it to the limit and using it more than once or twice in a long rest. That's it. In fact, it essentially is currently "Once per Long Rest" already, this just gives you an option to choose to extend it to more than once.
A better comparison is between berserker and other barbarians with damaging lvl 3 abilities. And other subclasses with damaging abilities aren't terribly far behind the beserker, while constantly doing their bonus damage without one of the most debilitating debuffs in the game.
Covered above, in damage comparison. There's a reason it's limited in the way it is. The problem is that at level 6 Berserkers get one of the most fundamental defenses in the game that shore up the entire class' primary weakness - Fear and Charm via Wisdom saves. I think you have to stop thinking of comparing the level 3 abilities in a vaccuum and realize that Berserkers have a better 6th level ribbon than any other archetype, but nobody seems to talk about that one. We just focus on level 3 and disadvantage on a skill check like that's what's going to end this class.
How good does it feel to have saved up your frenzies for the big bad if your party is lower on spell slots or hp, because not having a constant extra cantrip, dagger stab, or free advantage for allies worth of damage each round led to the fight before being harder than it needed to be? How good is Frenzy if you go down halfway through a rage, get back up, and have to decide if you're going to even use it again the whole fight considering you could be knocked right back out of it again with no benefit but more exhaustion?
That's the cost of doubling your damage in one battle.
I never said Berserkers don't get immunity to Fear/charm. If you actually read this thread, I've admitted it several times. Its a good, strong ability. I would agree with Haravik and consider it the main ability of the sub-class, because the 3rd and 10th level abilities are so bad.
We can talk about the Level 10 ability in a different thread.
And as I already pointed to, Berzerkers only do more damage when they do choose to frenzy with only (about 50% more), but also have a debuff on top of that. Not using their ability every encounter is already more than enough compensation. If we were concerned with who does the most consistent damage over a session, Berserker would lose.
Speaking of scenarios: What happens when your Barbarian gets Feared and can't even attack an enemy for a whole minute? Do we count that in the average damage calculation? What about Dominate/Charm? Do we calculate those debuffs into your consistency calculations?
Let's take a look at what causes these effects:
Charm and Fear Rays (Beholders), Dominate (Mind Flayers), Captivating Presence (Demons), Frightful Presence (Dragons), Frightening Gaze and Dreadful Glare (Undead), Hypnotic Gaze (Demons), Dominate Spells (any mage above level 8), Charm spells (Abishai and any mage), Fear spells (any mage above level 4), Suggestion (Drow and any mage above level 2), Fear Aura (Devils), Charm (Vampires), etc, etc, etc...
So yeah, they have a rationed level 3 ability while they get to ignore all of these high-level abilities for the rest of the game. I mean, unless your campaign runs without Demons, Devils, Dragons, Undead, Aboleths, Mages, Drow, Vampires... ?
So like: does balance between subclasses matter at all, or not? I understand subclasses doing different things, but not being objectively worse than one another on balance to this degree.
Yeah, I'd be pissed too if my Barb stood around for 5-10 rounds at high level battles while everyone else was having fun.
If anything, the frustration people are venting about the Berserker is the exact reason I don't play the other archetypes at all - that "cantrip's worth" of damage is useless because their output potential falls off a cliff when they get to 6th level and above, especially as the aforementioned enemies come into play. It's a weak class in general and Berserkers are the only archetype that actually shores up a glaring weakness instead of ignoring it.
A barbarian with no subclass is better than a Berserker because they don’t have 2-3 levels of exhaustion.
The Berserker doesn't start with multiple levels of Exhaustion, they only gain it if/when they choose to Frenzied Rage, it's a very, very simple mechanic. I expect that level of nonsense from Kronzy, but I know you know this. 😝
Because in my dungeons, every fight is deadly, and they are usually either under a ticking clock, or the random encounters probability is higher, so resting is sometimes almost as risky as pressing forward.
That sounds like you've engineered a campaign specifically designed to punish players for needing to rest, or wanting to take downtime, and yet it's somehow the Berserker's fault that you've specifically chosen to limit their access to one of their abilities? The same is true if you build a campaign that denies spellcasters chances to regain spell slots, or throws so much at them that they run out long before they can long rest, or if you don't give a Wizard the opportunity to copy new spells into their spellbook.
And it doesn't change the fact that the Berserker can still choose to conserve their Frenzied Rages to limit Exhaustion if/when they need to. This doesn't make them any worse as a Barbarian, as they can still use the regular, already very good Rage ability, and/or Reckless Attack, IMO two of the best martial abilities in the game (which is why a few levels in Barbarian is so popular in martial multi-classes).
Frenzied Rage is the strongest offensive ability of any Barbarian sub-class against single targets; if it had no drawback it would be overpowered. The fact that people complain so much about the Exhaustion only proves that it's an effective drawback, as it takes an ability that would be an obvious no-brainer on every single use of Rage, to one that you actually have to use at the right time.
It's also the only sub-class that lets you play as a proper Berserker; someone who fights with semi-suicidal ferocity. If you push that too hard it should punish you, because when you use it properly those extra attacks are extremely powerful for bringing down big baddies.
A barbarian with no subclass is better than a Berserker because they don’t have 2-3 levels of exhaustion.
The Berserker doesn't start with multiple levels of Exhaustion, they only gain it if/when they choose to Frenzied Rage, it's a very, very simple mechanic. I expect that level of nonsense from Kronzy, but I know you know this. 😝
I know they don’t start with exhaustion, I’m not an idiot.
It is a simple mechanic: use your core subclass feature and suck at life. It’s poo. It’s the single worst designed game mechanic in all of 5e and whoever wrote it should feel bad.
Because in my dungeons, every fight is deadly, and they are usually either under a ticking clock, or the random encounters probability is higher, so resting is sometimes almost as risky as pressing forward.
That sounds like you've engineered a campaign specifically designed to punish players for needing to rest, or wanting to take downtime, and yet it's somehow the Berserker's fault that you've specifically chosen to limit their access to one of their abilities? The same is true if you build a campaign that denies spellcasters chances to regain spell slots, or throws so much at them that they run out long before they can long rest, or if you don't give a Wizard the opportunity to copy new spells into their spellbook.
Ummm... No. Just no. It can take days of rest to recover from exhaustion. Setting up camp for three days so the Berzerker can sleep it off, just to have one more day of adventuring before another three day weekend so the Barbarian can sleep it off again... That shit slows dungeons down to a crawl. There is a big difference between taking a long rest and then along a three day holiday after every day of adventuring. It’s poo, and whoever wrote it should feel bad.
And it doesn't change the fact that the Berserker can still choose to conserve their Frenzied Rages to limit Exhaustion if/when they need to. This doesn't make them any worse as a Barbarian, as they can still use the regular, already very good Rage ability, and/or Reckless Attack, IMO two of the best martial abilities in the game (which is why a few levels in Barbarian is so popular in martial multi-classes).
Frenzied Rage is the strongest offensive ability of any Barbarian sub-class against single targets; if it had no drawback it would be overpowered. The fact that people complain so much about the Exhaustion only proves that it's an effective drawback, as it takes an ability that would be an obvious no-brainer on every single use of Rage, to one that you actually have to use at the right time.
It's also the only sub-class that lets you play as a proper Berserker; someone who fights with semi-suicidal ferocity. If you push that too hard it should punish you, because when you use it properly those extra attacks are extremely powerful for bringing down big baddies.
I have three words that completely invalidate your entire argument:
I know they don’t start with exhaustion, I’m not an idiot.
It is a simple mechanic: use your core subclass feature and suck at life. It’s poo. It’s the single worst designed game mechanic in all of 5e and whoever wrote it should feel bad.
Except it's not; you can use it once effectively for free (as disadvantage on ability checks is not a big deal for a Barbarian), and even the second use is minor and easily overcome, as I've already pointed out. It's only when you hit the 3rd use that the exhaustion penalty is properly severe, though by that point you should have already finished the dungeon/whatever, and even then you can still go Reckless to counteract it if you absolutely have to.
Honestly the level of hystrionics you're using in place of a proper argument is embarassing.
Ummm... No. Just no. It can take days of rest to recover from exhaustion. Setting up camp for three days so the Berzerker can sleep it off, just to have one more day of adventuring before another three day weekend so the Barbarian can sleep it off again... That shit slows dungeons down to a crawl.
First of all, it doesn't have to take days, as I've made perfectly clear multiple times while listing all the ways how to avoid it. Second of all, travelling and downtime are a thing in any good campaign; the evil lich's castle isn't usually within walking distance of a city, in the time period of D&D it can take days just to get to a nearby town. Adventurers shouldn't be taking on a new quest the moment they end the last one, things take time in a properly paced campaign, and it doesn't slow anything down because you don't have to roleplay every minute spent resting.
A long rest also doesn't have to be sleeping; 24 hours travelling by carriage can constitute three long rests is the length of three long rests, an easy fix, but no, your campaign seems to be about punishing the players for resting or taking downtime.
That doesn't invalidate my argument at all; feats aren't Barbarian sub-class features, DM's are under no obligation to allow players to take them, and if they do allow players to take them then the Berserker can also take it.
In fact an it's absolutely amazing feat for a Berserker to take as it lets them conserve Frenzied Rage more easily, especially against mobs of enemies where you don't really want to frenzy anyway, leaving them free to focus their frenzy on the bigger boss monsters that it's best for. That and while frenzied they can use the -5 to hit/+10 to damage option with all three attacks on every turn for a possible +30-40 damage (two + bonus + possibly reaction).
So rather than invalidating my argument you've only further cemented why Berserkers are great. 😝
I know they don’t start with exhaustion, I’m not an idiot.
It is a simple mechanic: use your core subclass feature and suck at life. It’s poo. It’s the single worst designed game mechanic in all of 5e and whoever wrote it should feel bad.
Except it's not; you can use it once effectively for free (as disadvantage on ability checks is not a big deal for a Barbarian), and even the second use is minor and easily overcome, as I've already pointed out. It's only when you hit the 3rd use that the exhaustion penalty is properly severe, though by that point you should have already finished the dungeon/whatever, and even then you can still go Reckless to counteract it if you absolutely have to.
Honestly the level of hystrionics you're using in place of a proper argument is embarassing.
First off, there are no “histrionics” at all. Your feeble attempts at deflection should be more embarrassing to you than anything I say.
Ummm... No. Just no. It can take days of rest to recover from exhaustion. Setting up camp for three days so the Berzerker can sleep it off, just to have one more day of adventuring before another three day weekend so the Barbarian can sleep it off again... That shit slows dungeons down to a crawl.
First of all, it doesn't have to take days, as I've made perfectly clear multiple times while listing all the ways how to avoid it. Second of all, travelling and downtime are a thing in any good campaign; the evil lich's castle isn't usually within walking distance of a city, in the time period of D&D it can take days just to get to a nearby town. Adventurers shouldn't be taking on a new quest the moment they end the last one, things take time in a properly paced campaign, and it doesn't slow anything down because you don't have to roleplay every minute spent resting.
A long rest also doesn't have to be sleeping; 24 hours travelling by carriage can constitute three long rests.
I’m pretty sure I know how the rules for Long Rests work far, far better than you do:
Long Rest
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity — at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity — the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
At the end of a long rest, a character regains all lost hit points. The character also regains spent Hit Dice, up to a number of dice equal to half of the character's total number of them (minimum of one die). For example, if a character has eight Hit Dice, he or she can regain four spent Hit Dice upon finishing a long rest.
A character can't benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period, and a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits.
So I don’t care if you’re in a tent, a carriage, or your own mother’s loving arms, it still takes 3 days to overcome 3 levels of exhaustion without an abundance of Olisuba Leaf on hand.
Your engaging in a debate about Resting rules when you don’t actually understand them yourself should be far, far more embarrassing to you than my “histrionics.”
That doesn't invalidate my argument at all; feats aren't Barbarian sub-class features, DM's are under no obligation to allow players to take them, and if they do allow players to take them then the Berserker can also take it.
In fact an it's absolutely amazing feat for a Berserker to take as it lets them conserve Frenzied Rage more easily, especially against mobs of enemies where you don't really want to frenzy anyway, leaving them free to focus their frenzy on the bigger boss monsters that it's best for. That and while frenzied they can use the -5 to hit/+10 to damage option with all three attacks on every turn for a possible +30-40 damage (two + bonus + possibly reaction).
So rather than invalidating my argument you've only further cemented why Berserkers are great. 😝
Great Weapon Master practically replaces Frenzied Rage only better. And it’s available to everyone. That means that anyone who take that feat can have a better version of Frenzied Rage than the Berserker gets.
Frenzied Rage is only good against a BBE when there is downtime expected afterwords. That makes it useful about as often as Natural Explorer, only Frenzied Rage actively punishes the player for using it.
No, I didn't misunderstand anything. I clarified down below about spellcasting and that Frenzy can be negated by Greater Restoration but never needs to be. You keep bringing up the comparison because you want to assume that some Cleric is downing Greater Restoration just to make your argument work. The "punishment" for using Frenzy is merely Ability Check disadvantage. Your Barbarian is often required to do one thing with his skill checks and that's Athletics, which even with disadvantage isn't that big of a heal to overcome. Your assessment that somehow this is gamebreaking to the Barbarian is disingenuous.
Ok, so ability checks for role play/adventure just don't matter. And you assume that a berserker that properly saves their trump card will almost never use their frenzy more than once a long rest on average. Lets keep those things in mind.
Your Berserker is poorly played if you're not rationing like you should with this ability.
Yeah, that confirms it; you do believe that the ability isn't meant to be used into the heavier costs of exhaustion. Cool cool, lets keep that baked in assumption then, since it is the only way to play the subclass without it defeating itself.
They can, but they don't. They use Frenzy on the big baddies just fine. Do you know why there is such a big punishment for this 3rd level feature? Because it's downright overpowered.
No wonder it feels like you're talking to a wall, because you simply can't be talking to me. I never said "just let them frenzy every time they rage." That is a strawman argument.
Also, your math still only compares berserker to generic barb without a subclass, not berserker to other barb subclasses with a damage ability. So yeah, when you do get to frenzy for that one time a session, its that much better than if you had no subclass, for that one fight. But the gap between berserker and battlerager, or berserker and wolf totem, etc, is not nearly so large.
So for a 3rd level damaging ability, the berserker has already paid their dues. They trade hundreds of points of damage or other utilities over the course of the session for that sweet momentary damage boost in the one fight. Not a crazy boost over other damage focused barbs (not a full 10 points more a round), but a noteworthy one.
Which even makes me wonder about the strawman you were arguing against; is it a problem for one subclass to be somewhat stronger than other subclasses? You seem to concede that balance between the classes is a thing that is worth considering, and that it would hurt the game if the berserker constantly got that average of 6 or so more damage a turn. Why does that not work in reverse? If that is the benchmark of "too much" then why would the berserker being behind in general not be "too much"?
Your argument as to "why not make it a limited resource that comes back on a long rest?" Because then you have the option then of actually doing taking it to the limit and using it more than once or twice in a long rest. That's it. In fact, it essentially is currently "Once per Long Rest" already, this just gives you an option to choose to extend it to more than once.
Not sure what you are trying to say. You've repeatedly said it should be played as something you can only do once on average, maybe twice. You even say again that it is "essentially 'Once per Long Rest' already." Again, things Im not arguing against! My point is, if that is already true, why also throw on exhaustion? If its too strong to have an entire pool of uses come back per long rest, then just make one use come back per long rest.
There are just better ways to let berserk-er do its thing and still be balanced.
That's the cost of doubling your damage in one battle.
For two levels, and only for one fight a session (if we are doing it right according to you).
We can talk about the Level 10 ability in a different thread.
Then lets be fair and talk about the level 6 ability in a different thread. Because no one is saying mindless rage is bad to begin with. We could talk about whether its worth being the sole class feature for 95% of every session until level 14.
I'll just leave it here, since literally the rest of your comment is just saying how good mindless rage is rather than addressing the faults in the 3rd level ability.
A long rest also doesn't have to be sleeping; 24 hours travelling by carriage can constitute three long rests.
"A character can't benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period, and a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits."
Not according to the basic rules. Also, you'd really need to debate whether or not you can travel and rest with your dm. Sleeping in a moving vehicle isn't exactly regarded as refreshing as sleeping in a bed.
First off, there are no “histrionics” at all. Your feeble attempts at deflection should be more embarrassing to you than anything I say.
You literally described the feature as "poo" like a child, and said that the person who came up with the rule should feel bad, and instead of actually responding to my main point you've decided to be a spelling nazi (though I'm pretty sure hystrionics is also valid as spell-checking didn't flag it).
But thanks for neatly proving that part of my point, though I would have preferred if you'd actually engaged with the other more important part that you instead conspicuously ignored.
So I don’t care if you’re in a tent, a carriage, or your own mother’s loving arms, it still takes 3 days to overcome 3 levels of exhaustion without an abundance of Olisuba Leaf on hand.
Your engaging in a debate about Resting rules when you don’t actually understand them yourself should be far, far more embarrassing to you than my “histrionics.”
I should have been clearer knowing you'd seize on any excuse to ignore the actual point; I didn't mean you can normally take multiple long rests per day, I'm pointing out that 24 hours is three times the length of a long rest, it shouldn't take much imagination for a DM to allow a full day of rest to clear a couple of extra points of exhaustion if it's proving to be such a problem for the purposefully awkward campaign you've apparently designed to punish one specific player. It also doesn't change the fact that they do not need to accumulate that much exhaustion. If you have a Berserker in your unreasonably structured campaign then they shouldn't be taking more than one point unless they're willing to accept the trade off, or they could (and clearly should) find a better DM.
The main point that you ignored was that players should have opportunities to rest for several days here and there, especially after big grueling fights, between quests etc. And yet again, a Berserker doesn't need to accumulate multiple Exhaustion if they don't want to. I have made these points at least a dozen of times by now, though it feels like billions, and I don't know why I bother when clearly neither your nor kronzypantz bother to read them.
I do however realise by now that it is seemingly either beyond your capacity to grasp this, or that because it doesn't fit your argument that Berserkers and the players who like them are "poo" that you're never going to actually engage with it in any kind of reasonable discussion.
Great Weapon Master practically replaces Frenzied Rage only better. And it’s available to everyone. That means that anyone who take that feat can have a better version of Frenzied Rage than the Berserker gets.
Once again, feats are not sub-class features, they have additional costs to take them, if your DM even permits them. And if they do, THE BERSERKER CAN TAKE IT AS WELL AND IT PERFECTLY COMPLEMENTS THEIR FRENZIED RAGE AND PLAY-STYLE TO DO SO. I realise that you thought you had a winning argument, but you only succeeded in highlighting how utterly forced your arguments here really are, and this wasn't even a valid one.
The defining characteristic of anti-Berxers appears to be a total inability to argue in good faith; if you can't argue without ignoring most of the points raised, then don't, because you're not winning, you're only highlighting how utterly vile some people can be when it comes to an irrational desire to spoil something fun for everyone else.
First off, there are no “histrionics” at all. Your feeble attempts at deflection should be more embarrassing to you than anything I say.
You literally described the feature as "poo" like a child, and said that the person who came up with the rule should feel bad, and instead of actually responding to my main point you've tried to be a spelling nazi over a word that I did not spell incorrectly (hint; some words have multiple valid spellings).
But thanks for neatly proving that part of my point, though I would have preferred if you'd actually engaged with the other more important part that you instead conspicuously ignored.
You’re right, I said “poo” as a means of self editing. Would you have preferred I said what I meant? In which case: “Great Galloping Gobs of Greased Goose Shit.” Better?
Yes, whoever wrote that mechanic should feel bad for being bad at their job. It’s a terrible design. If a MacDonalds employee ****ed up their job that bad they would get fired, or at least written up for it.
And I never once said anything about your spelling, I corrected my own spelling. (I wrote a “your” instead of a “you’re.” And My phone autocorrects the word “histrionics” so I had nothing to do with that. So, wtf are you even talking about?!?
If I had recognized you making any valid point I would have addressed it. I saw no valid point to address. If it was there I missed it.
So I don’t care if you’re in a tent, a carriage, or your own mother’s loving arms, it still takes 3 days to overcome 3 levels of exhaustion without an abundance of Olisuba Leaf on hand.
Your engaging in a debate about Resting rules when you don’t actually understand them yourself should be far, far more embarrassing to you than my “histrionics.”
I should have been clearer knowing you'd sieze on any excuse to ignore the actual point; I didn't mean you can normally take multiple long rests per day, I'm pointing out that 24 hours is three times the length of a long rest, it shouldn't take much imagination for a DM to allow a full day of rest to clear a couple of extra points of exhaustion if it's proving to be such a problem for the purposefully awkward campaign you've apparently designed to punish one specific player.
The main point that you ignored was that players should have opportunities to rest for several days here and there, especially after big grueling fights, between quests etc. and a Berserker doesn't need to accumulate multiple Exhaustion if they don't want to. I have literally made these points at least a dozen of times by now, though it feels like billions.
So if I understand your arguments, your main points are:
Players should have plenty of downtime between adventures.
A DM should be willing to go against RAW by houseruling to allow the Berserker to sleep off more levels of exhaustion than normal.
That a Berzerker player doesn’t have to use their subclass feature if they don’t want to.
Okay then, let’s tackle these one at a time for you.
I’m not talking about in between adventures at all, so your point is moot. I’m talking about when the party has faced their 4th deadly encounter for the day and had to use Frenzied Rage more than once that day, but they are still in the middle of the ******* dungeon. Not “in between adventures” but actually smack dab in the middle of the adventure. That’s a point of mine that you seem to keep “conveniently ignoring.”
RAW they could spend all day in that carriage of yourself and still only recover one point of exhaustion. Period. Anything else is a houserule. If the DM has to houserule around a class feature to make it work, it’s a shitty feature. Thank you for proving my point.
Saying that the Player doesn’t have to use their PC’s shitty class feature is not a defense for the shitty class feature. That’s like telling someone who’s complaint about their high property taxes that they can choose to be homeless. That’s not a good argument, it’s not even a bad argument. It’s a non-argument.
If you have a Berserker in your unreasonably structured campaign then they shouldn't be taking more than one point unless they're willing to accept the trade off, or they could (and clearly should) find a better DM.
And yet again, a Berserker doesn't need to accumulate multiple Exhaustion if they don't want to. I have made these points at least a dozen of times by now, though it feels like billions, and I don't know why I bother when clearly neither your nor kronzypantz bother to read them.
I read your “argument” but as I’ve already pointed out, it’s terrible.
I do however realise by now that it is seemingly either beyond your capacity to grasp this, or that because it doesn't fit your argument that Berserkers and the players who like them are "poo" that you're never going to actually engage with it in any kind of reasonable discussion.
Don’t put words in my ******* mouth. I never said “the players who like Berserkers are poo.”
Great Weapon Master practically replaces Frenzied Rage only better. And it’s available to everyone. That means that anyone who take that feat can have a better version of Frenzied Rage than the Berserker gets.
Once again, feats are not sub-class features, they have additional costs to take them, if your DM even permits them. And if they do, THE BERSERKER CAN TAKE IT AS WELL AND IT PERFECTLY COMPLEMENTS THEIR FRENZIED RAGE AND PLAY-STYLE TO DO SO. I realise that you thought you had a winning argument, but you only succeeded in highlighting how utterly forced your arguments here really are, and this wasn't even a valid one.
It is a completely valid argument that GWM makes Frenzied Rage even more useless when taken by a Berzerker.
The defining characteristic of anti-Berxers appears to be a total inability to argue in good faith; if you can't argue without ignoring most of the points raised, then don't, because you're not winning, you're only highlighting how utterly vile some people can be when it comes to an irrational desire to spoil something fun for everyone else.
I am allowed to think that the subclass in question is one of the worst in the whole game. I am allowed to share that opinion as I choose, especially in these forums. I have no desire to spoil anyone else’s idea of fun whatsoever. You’re welcome to disagree with my opinion. But if my voicing my opinion spoils your fun of the berserker, then that says more about how spoilable the Berserker is than it does about my opinion.
I have addressed every point you have made in good faith, but you’re the one devolving this into personal insults by calling me points “histrionics” (sorry “hystrionics”) and insulting my DMing. So this is where I tell you to take your terrible arguments, lube them with a light coating of that greased goose shit, and shove them squarely up your Berserker.
I'm not even going to bother with any of this; you've ignored all of my points again, and invented a bunch I didn't make, all while being as rude and coarse and possible, this has gone full on frothing mouthed vitriol.
If you wanted to discuss the sub-class in good faith you had plenty of opportunity to engage with the points actually being raised, but you haven't; I can respond to you simply by saying "read what I actually said", as until you do you're not participating in a discussion, you're yelling incoherently at the wind.
And your doing that doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the Berserker sub-class, I had a blast playing as one, and a friend in my current main campaign is having a tonne of fun playing it, because we actually know how to use it. And that's what it comes down to; both your and kronzypantz's arguments rely on a player using the class incorrectly just so you can whine about it. Your own star argument is one that fell completely flat, as it requires the taking of a feat that a Berserker can also take (and gets more out of).
Sorry, but it's clear by this point that your objections to the class aren't based on any attempt whatsoever to play it properly; they're purely ideological. Some people just prefer to hate I guess; I prefer to have fun, and do, except in threads like this, which appear to attract the worst of what D&D shouldn't ever be.
As a DM, there are certain subclasses that I do have to rejigger because they “lag behind” and I want their players to feel as badass as the rest of the table. I shouldn’t have to rejigger this much.
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It's not a cost at all if you long rest soon afterwards, or if your party has Greater Restoration, or Enhance Ability, or if you just leave ability checks to someone else. Your problem seems to be that you want everything for free.
Except that it's only a steep cost when you demand that it have no penalty at all. You make it a steep cost by placing requirements on a class to be good in your view that have nothing to do with what it's geared towards.
Going a "better" sub-class won't get you the highest number of attacks of any Barbarian sub-class, or immunity to Charmed/Frightened etc. And relying on other party members is normal for an adventuring party, just as the Wizard benefits from the Barbarian tanking why shouldn't one player expect help or a boost another? The party as a whole benefits by helping the Berserker use their Frenzied Rage as often as possible, because it means more attacks and more damage, more of the time.
Fighter doesn't get a third attack until 11th level, and Berserker is the only Barbarian sub-class with a third full attack. As for the rest of your examples, these are all things the Berserker can get as well; you're insisting that Berserkers must operate with no help from anyone ever, yet you're arguing that other martial characters having Haste cast on them invalidates the Berserker? You make one argument one moment, then completely contradict it in the next, exactly as you did on Way of the Kensei.
I also didn't say it was infinite. I'm getting really sick of your bad faith arguing; you refuse to accept an argument, then use precisely the same argument for yourself, and then you just plain make stuff up! You're effectively arguing with yourself at this point.
Case in point. If you want to argue with yourself, do it offline, I've been very clear in what I'm actually saying if you'd actually bother to read any of it properly.
No, I'm pointing out the options available, of which that is only one, and only required when you need it. I also pointed out numerous others which you've very conspicuously, and no doubt purposefully, ignore. Re-read my posts if you're actually interested in arguing an actual point.
You can't just disregard randomness when a key factor is quantity of attacks, because otherwise your comparison is pointless, which it was, as I tried to explain and you've ignored.
You're assuming that damage only matters in aggregate, but if we're talking 3-4 fights then 2-3 of those may be against weaker enemies where a critical makes little real difference. You're absolutely determined to make only the comparisons that make your case, while ignoring any that don't.
Not once have I claimed that the Berserker does the most damage of any Barbarian or martial class over a prolonged period, yet that's the only thing you seem interested in arguing. You also seem to be completely, maybe even physically, incapable of grasping that you don't have to use Frenzied Rage in every fight for it to still be a great ability in the fight(s) that you do use it; your argument is ideological.
Other Barbarian sub-classes do do more damage over a long period, so what? In a battle with a dragon your damage over 50 rounds doesn't matter one bit if you're going to be dead if you can't bring the enemy down in six.
And again, if we're assuming handing out Haste is fine then Haste + Frenzy is even better. You can't have it both ways. I realise you've only said it to try to trap me into your inevitable response of "but you can't cast Haste and Greater Restoration", to which my answer is; so don't, because you don't have to, and I've already explained why multiple times, you've just ignored it multiple times as well.
No it doesn't, it has abilities that suit what it is, and they work perfectly fine. And it doesn't require outside assistance, as I have explained multiple times already. If you don't want to accumulate exhaustion, well here's the part that's really going to blow your mind; Frenzied Rage doesn't replace regular Rage, you can choose which one to use! I know right? Stunning, why didn't you realise that sooner? Well now that's an excellent question, because loads of class abilities are best used at the right time, yet apparently Berserker's aren't allowed to use theirs in that way, they must be able to use it every turn at zero cost.
And this seems to be the crux of the problem; for some unknown reason you are incapable of grasping that a Barbarian is already a really good class, and you don't lose anything from it by going a Berserker. In fact you gain abilities that are extremely good when you actually use them properly.
But I'm sick of the bad faith arguments; you've already decided (or been told) to hate the class and that's what you seem determined to do. You've spent more time arguing against yourself than actually arguing any point that I've raised. So exactly as I've had to do on the Way of the Kensei thread all I can do is urge you to actually read what I've written, rather than what you've imagined that I've said, because until you do this going nowhere.
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"This much"? One ability? By doing what exactly? Letting the group take a couple of days of downtime after a difficult dungeon?
You must have some serious min-maxing going on with the other players if a Barbarian is lagging behind, because a Barbarian without any sub-class abilities is still good at combat.
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Every other barb can just be buffed with one spell to increase how much better they are over the beserker. The beserker needs to have spells used on them to make them be on par with (or somewhat ahead) the other barbs, mecahnically. That is what it comes down to: the beserker needing to be corrected, while other barbs can just be buffed.
"I never said any such thing; you can use Frenzied Rage for ever single Rage if you want to, and are willing to pay the price for it (or can mitigate it)."
Make up your mind: can you use it as much as you want, or is there a hard finite limit? You keep going back and forth on this. Talk about bad faith argument!
Ok, then let me respond to the available options, or talk about a scenario where you don't talk a cleric friend into constantly fixing your subclass' harsh drawback. If I talk about the options, you say "but we can layer on more options." If I talk about a scenario stripped of depending on a spellcaster, you go back to the options. Its not convincing anyone, its not a good argument. Its just avoiding the mechanical problems you refuse to address.
I mean you even admit that the beast master hunter has mechanical issues related to the stats of the animal companion and the class' abilities. Why don't you say "but spells can fix the issue!"? Because you know that if you have to actively "fix" a subclass to make it balanced in play, it has issues.
There is no accounting for randomness either, which goes both ways uselessly. My berserker could miss every hit, while your battlerager crits 10 times in a row. We can look at averages, assuming the law of averages will give us a good sense of what would happen. We can't magic up any meaningful calculation for "what if the odds are defied?" Or maybe you are some statistician or engineer, and you can imagine something like that. If so, please let me know. Otherwise, deciding we can't use averages is tantamount to "lets just imagine a perfect enough scenario to justify my point..."
Wow, a point I've not once made, what an honest argument. I agree, there should be some limit to frenzy so its not broken. Frenzy stands in for every other 3rd level ability that other barbs get. On that balance, its trash. It doesn't even do what you and I agree it should do (act as a kind of badass trump card) without a disproportionate cost to any other ability in the entire game in terms of how long it lasts.
...Im done. Go one thinking whatever you want for whatever lack of reason you want.
There is so much wrong with this post...
Adding a Haste spell was addressed by the previous poster - Haste + Frenzy > Haste + No Frenzy. Fallacious argument.
Mechanically deficient? So let's take a Bear Totem Barbarian running up against Orc armies without elemental damage. In this scenario, the Berserker AT LEAST has the option to use Frenzy and get more attacks, your Bear Totem Barb is literally a useless 3rd level Feat. By your logic, Bear Totem Barbarians are literally the worst Barbarian class in the game. Of course, then you'd argue "But at higher levels the enemies will have Fireball and elemental damage is more common!" - to which the *standard reply* is "Yeah, just like Fear and Charm become more prevalent later on in the game?" Again, another fallacious argument.
Usage of Frenzy - it is entirely up to the PC how they want to use it. Do they save it for the BBEG? They can. Do they use it once before the BBEG and once during? They can. Do they use it in every battle possible and die quickly? They can. The point is ALWAYS that this is a *choice* for the PC and at it's very *basic* the PC could just decide to NEVER use Frenzy and just be the equivalent of a regular Barbarian from 3-6. Examples that say "OMG They're gonna die!" or "OMG they'll never use it" are extreme edges of that scale and arguments made about them are also fallacious.
Regarding Spellcasting - Greater Restoration has an effect on exhaustion, and Berserkers are the only class that take exhaustion effects. The only argument we've been making is that it is POSSIBLE to reverse the effects and restore the usage of this ability quite easily between Long Rests. No one is claiming that we should be *expecting* or *requiring* it, just that it exists and *can* be affected by it. Arguments that assume anything else are also fallacious.
You can absolutely use stats to make a point. Statistically, the Berserk with Frenzy will do more damage than your Bear Totem without Frenzy. And significantly so. If they don't use Frenzy, they will likely do the same amount of damage. Randomness exists, but so does probability and I don't think you've addressed the actual damage difference at all. If you want to argue stats, choose some class combinations and I'll compare the stats for you.
I find it quite interesting watching people argue against Berserker but rarely consider the evidence that Berserkers with Frenzy do more damage than Totem and Battlerager Barbarian out there... and also get immunity to Fear/Charm. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JIrEV1RFv6yxWEdqG6zP3z-ZONDTacquGyqYj8G-CdE/edit#gid=1769534668
A barbarian with no subclass is better than a Berserker because they don’t have 2-3 levels of exhaustion. Because in my dungeons, every fight is deadly, and they are usually either under a ticking clock, or the random encounters probability is higher, so resting is sometimes almost as risky as pressing forward. That’s why o give XP for everything, I expect them to avoid combat as often as engage in it.
And yes, I houseruled that the PC can make a Con save to avoid the Exhaustion. I don’t have to rejigger any other Barbarians, just these.
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You misunderstand the conversation.
The comparison isn't frenzy and haste vs generic barb and haste, its frenzy and multiple castings of greater restoration vs. generic barb with haste. If we are going to theory craft layering buffs on a subclass, we would be having a different argument.
One is purely buffed, the other needs a 5th level spell slot to not be punished for using their level 3 ability. And no berserker is getting that greater restoration unless the party has a cleric/druid, and not until level 9, and then just once.
Ideally, that is how the situation would play out in the very first session that you have access to frenzy, or after just not using your base class ability for a few sessions to rest up exhaustion levels, or in a one shot. But more realistically, my berserker will already have at least one level of exhaustion if they aren't heavily rationing their ability.
Meanwhile, most other barbarians are always just as good in that situation. They don't self-destruct from constantly cripple themselves with their lvl 3 abilities.
The Bear totem is one the exceptions because they trade for a wider resistance to damage, which is on every time the rage, and will almost always find use every session without a penalty like exhaustion hanging over their head. (their level 10 abilities to choose from, while not broken, also aren't a joke.)
They can play as though they have no lvl 3 subclass ability... but that makes it a bad subclass.
Using it only for special occasions, also just points out the issue every other barbarian gets to use their level 3 abilities all the time, with no punishment.
And even if the ability is only meant to be saved like that... then why bring in exhaustion at all? Why not make it a limited resource like blade song that comes back on a long rest? It does the same thing, but by imposing exhaustion to force that choice. A debuff so strong, no generic monster even causes it.
The totem warrior trades a lvl 3 damage ability for other benefits, such as resistance to most forms of damage, or giving their allies constant advantage against enemies near them.
If you want to compare the lvl 3 beserker to the lvl 3bear totem, then the beserker gets no constant defensive buff added to their rage. Instantly trash, right? No.
A better comparison is between berserker and other barbarians with damaging lvl 3 abilities. And other subclasses with damaging abilities aren't terribly far behind the beserker, while constantly doing their bonus damage without one of the most debilitating debuffs in the game.
How good does it feel to have saved up your frenzies for the big bad if your party is lower on spell slots or hp, because not having a constant extra cantrip, dagger stab, or free advantage for allies worth of damage each round led to the fight before being harder than it needed to be? How good is Frenzy if you go down halfway through a rage, get back up, and have to decide if you're going to even use it again the whole fight considering you could be knocked right back out of it again with no benefit but more exhaustion?
And again, if it was just are- allotment of when you are doing your damage, frenzy would just be different, just like comparing defensive abilities to offensive abilities. But exhaustion makes it that, but also needlessly punishing.
I never said Berserkers don't get immunity to Fear/charm. If you actually read this thread, I've admitted it several times. Its a good, strong ability. I would agree with Haravik and consider it the main ability of the sub-class, because the 3rd and 10th level abilities are so bad.
And as I already pointed to, Berzerkers only do more damage when they do choose to frenzy with only (about 50% more), but also have a debuff on top of that. Not using their ability every encounter is already more than enough compensation. If we were concerned with who does the most consistent damage over a session, Berserker would lose.
They would be balanced if they got progressing uses of their frenzy over the course of lvls 3-20, from 1 use to something like 3 or 4 at 16. or maybe even just having a hard cut off like blade singer. But the exhaustion on top of that is too much punishment to be balanced. maybe not too much for someone to subjectively decide they want that additional handicap, but comparing the subclasses and the standard WotC established.
Also, side note: the kensei thing you see coming up repeatedly was about a difference of 1-2 points of damage being traded for 2 AC, and how I was told it wouldn't work to just let both of those things happen at the same time because it would make kensei too good of a monk subclass. This discussion is about a subclass potentially losing out on hundreds of points damage dealt a session to reassign a fraction of that to one specific encounter, and being punished on top of that. So like: does balance between subclasses matter at all, or not? I understand subclasses doing different things, but not being objectively worse than one another on balance to this degree.
Thats a good fix. It makes sense given that you get to make a con save to avoid exhaustion when using a powerful magical artifact that rips apart time and space, but that swinging your greatsword a little faster in the space of a minute for the 100th time is just automatic exhaustion.
Thank you. I thought so too.
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No, I didn't misunderstand anything. I clarified down below about spellcasting and that Frenzy can be negated by Greater Restoration but never needs to be. You keep bringing up the comparison because you want to assume that some Cleric is downing Greater Restoration just to make your argument work. The "punishment" for using Frenzy is merely Ability Check disadvantage. Your Barbarian is often required to do one thing with his skill checks and that's Athletics, which even with disadvantage isn't that big of a heal to overcome. Your assessment that somehow this is gamebreaking to the Barbarian is disingenuous.
That's the entire point of Frenzy - to heavily ration. It's not a revelation. If you go an entire session without a single elemental attack, your Bear Totem is irrelevant. In contrast, if the team is fighting the BBEG and the Berserker uses Frenzy, he is almost doubling his output in damage over your normal Barbarian.
Your Berserker is poorly played if you're not rationing like you should with this ability.
Again, with your outlandish claims that a Frenzy Barbarian will "self-destruct from constantly cripple themselves". It's like talking to a wall. You addressed above in your own comment about "heavily rationing" the use of Frenzy and that's precisely what a Berserker player does. And disadvantage on Athletics is not crippling. Even Speed Halved might not be crippling, but I'll leave that one out for this discussion.
They can, but they don't. They use Frenzy on the big baddies just fine. Do you know why there is such a big punishment for this 3rd level feature? Because it's downright overpowered.
From the linked article (if you had read it):
A 2-handed Barb without Rage does 5.8 /6.4 /12.8 average damage from levels 3 to 5.
A 2-handed Barb with Rage and Reckless does 10.1 /10.9 / 21.8 average damage from 3 to 5.
A 2-handed Barb with Frenzy and Reckless does 20.1 / 21.8 / 32.7 average damage from 3 to 5.
Does that make sense? Frenzy almost doubles the damage from regular Rage at level 3 and 4, and adds 50% damage at level 5. At level 6 you become immune to Fear and Charm and you have covered the gap admirably.
Your argument as to "why not make it a limited resource that comes back on a long rest?" Because then you have the option then of actually doing taking it to the limit and using it more than once or twice in a long rest. That's it. In fact, it essentially is currently "Once per Long Rest" already, this just gives you an option to choose to extend it to more than once.
Covered above, in damage comparison. There's a reason it's limited in the way it is. The problem is that at level 6 Berserkers get one of the most fundamental defenses in the game that shore up the entire class' primary weakness - Fear and Charm via Wisdom saves. I think you have to stop thinking of comparing the level 3 abilities in a vaccuum and realize that Berserkers have a better 6th level ribbon than any other archetype, but nobody seems to talk about that one. We just focus on level 3 and disadvantage on a skill check like that's what's going to end this class.
That's the cost of doubling your damage in one battle.
We can talk about the Level 10 ability in a different thread.
Speaking of scenarios: What happens when your Barbarian gets Feared and can't even attack an enemy for a whole minute? Do we count that in the average damage calculation? What about Dominate/Charm? Do we calculate those debuffs into your consistency calculations?
Let's take a look at what causes these effects:
Charm and Fear Rays (Beholders), Dominate (Mind Flayers), Captivating Presence (Demons), Frightful Presence (Dragons), Frightening Gaze and Dreadful Glare (Undead), Hypnotic Gaze (Demons), Dominate Spells (any mage above level 8), Charm spells (Abishai and any mage), Fear spells (any mage above level 4), Suggestion (Drow and any mage above level 2), Fear Aura (Devils), Charm (Vampires), etc, etc, etc...
So yeah, they have a rationed level 3 ability while they get to ignore all of these high-level abilities for the rest of the game. I mean, unless your campaign runs without Demons, Devils, Dragons, Undead, Aboleths, Mages, Drow, Vampires... ?
Yeah, I'd be pissed too if my Barb stood around for 5-10 rounds at high level battles while everyone else was having fun.
If anything, the frustration people are venting about the Berserker is the exact reason I don't play the other archetypes at all - that "cantrip's worth" of damage is useless because their output potential falls off a cliff when they get to 6th level and above, especially as the aforementioned enemies come into play. It's a weak class in general and Berserkers are the only archetype that actually shores up a glaring weakness instead of ignoring it.
The Berserker doesn't start with multiple levels of Exhaustion, they only gain it if/when they choose to Frenzied Rage, it's a very, very simple mechanic. I expect that level of nonsense from Kronzy, but I know you know this. 😝
That sounds like you've engineered a campaign specifically designed to punish players for needing to rest, or wanting to take downtime, and yet it's somehow the Berserker's fault that you've specifically chosen to limit their access to one of their abilities? The same is true if you build a campaign that denies spellcasters chances to regain spell slots, or throws so much at them that they run out long before they can long rest, or if you don't give a Wizard the opportunity to copy new spells into their spellbook.
And it doesn't change the fact that the Berserker can still choose to conserve their Frenzied Rages to limit Exhaustion if/when they need to. This doesn't make them any worse as a Barbarian, as they can still use the regular, already very good Rage ability, and/or Reckless Attack, IMO two of the best martial abilities in the game (which is why a few levels in Barbarian is so popular in martial multi-classes).
Frenzied Rage is the strongest offensive ability of any Barbarian sub-class against single targets; if it had no drawback it would be overpowered. The fact that people complain so much about the Exhaustion only proves that it's an effective drawback, as it takes an ability that would be an obvious no-brainer on every single use of Rage, to one that you actually have to use at the right time.
It's also the only sub-class that lets you play as a proper Berserker; someone who fights with semi-suicidal ferocity. If you push that too hard it should punish you, because when you use it properly those extra attacks are extremely powerful for bringing down big baddies.
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I know they don’t start with exhaustion, I’m not an idiot.
It is a simple mechanic: use your core subclass feature and suck at life. It’s poo. It’s the single worst designed game mechanic in all of 5e and whoever wrote it should feel bad.
Ummm... No. Just no. It can take days of rest to recover from exhaustion. Setting up camp for three days so the Berzerker can sleep it off, just to have one more day of adventuring before another three day weekend so the Barbarian can sleep it off again... That shit slows dungeons down to a crawl. There is a big difference between taking a long rest and then along a three day holiday after every day of adventuring. It’s poo, and whoever wrote it should feel bad.
I have three words that completely invalidate your entire argument:
Great Weapon Master
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I don't know about path of the berserker, but path of the totem warrior starts feeling weak/getting diminishing returns after about 7th level.
Except it's not; you can use it once effectively for free (as disadvantage on ability checks is not a big deal for a Barbarian), and even the second use is minor and easily overcome, as I've already pointed out. It's only when you hit the 3rd use that the exhaustion penalty is properly severe, though by that point you should have already finished the dungeon/whatever, and even then you can still go Reckless to counteract it if you absolutely have to.
Honestly the level of hystrionics you're using in place of a proper argument is embarassing.
First of all, it doesn't have to take days, as I've made perfectly clear multiple times while listing all the ways how to avoid it. Second of all, travelling and downtime are a thing in any good campaign; the evil lich's castle isn't usually within walking distance of a city, in the time period of D&D it can take days just to get to a nearby town. Adventurers shouldn't be taking on a new quest the moment they end the last one, things take time in a properly paced campaign, and it doesn't slow anything down because you don't have to roleplay every minute spent resting.
A long rest also doesn't have to be sleeping; 24 hours travelling by carriage
can constitute three long restsis the length of three long rests, an easy fix, but no, your campaign seems to be about punishing the players for resting or taking downtime.That doesn't invalidate my argument at all; feats aren't Barbarian sub-class features, DM's are under no obligation to allow players to take them, and if they do allow players to take them then the Berserker can also take it.
In fact an it's absolutely amazing feat for a Berserker to take as it lets them conserve Frenzied Rage more easily, especially against mobs of enemies where you don't really want to frenzy anyway, leaving them free to focus their frenzy on the bigger boss monsters that it's best for. That and while frenzied they can use the -5 to hit/+10 to damage option with all three attacks on every turn for a possible +30-40 damage (two + bonus + possibly reaction).
So rather than invalidating my argument you've only further cemented why Berserkers are great. 😝
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Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
First off, there are no “histrionics” at all. Your feeble attempts at deflection should be more embarrassing to you than anything I say.
I’m pretty sure I know how the rules for Long Rests work far, far better than you do:
So I don’t care if you’re in a tent, a carriage, or your own mother’s loving arms, it still takes 3 days to overcome 3 levels of exhaustion without an abundance of Olisuba Leaf on hand.
Your engaging in a debate about Resting rules when you don’t actually understand them yourself should be far, far more embarrassing to you than my “histrionics.”
Great Weapon Master practically replaces Frenzied Rage only better. And it’s available to everyone. That means that anyone who take that feat can have a better version of Frenzied Rage than the Berserker gets.
Frenzied Rage is only good against a BBE when there is downtime expected afterwords. That makes it useful about as often as Natural Explorer, only Frenzied Rage actively punishes the player for using it.
Edit: Spelling
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Ok, so ability checks for role play/adventure just don't matter. And you assume that a berserker that properly saves their trump card will almost never use their frenzy more than once a long rest on average. Lets keep those things in mind.
Yeah, that confirms it; you do believe that the ability isn't meant to be used into the heavier costs of exhaustion. Cool cool, lets keep that baked in assumption then, since it is the only way to play the subclass without it defeating itself.
No wonder it feels like you're talking to a wall, because you simply can't be talking to me. I never said "just let them frenzy every time they rage." That is a strawman argument.
Also, your math still only compares berserker to generic barb without a subclass, not berserker to other barb subclasses with a damage ability. So yeah, when you do get to frenzy for that one time a session, its that much better than if you had no subclass, for that one fight. But the gap between berserker and battlerager, or berserker and wolf totem, etc, is not nearly so large.
So for a 3rd level damaging ability, the berserker has already paid their dues. They trade hundreds of points of damage or other utilities over the course of the session for that sweet momentary damage boost in the one fight. Not a crazy boost over other damage focused barbs (not a full 10 points more a round), but a noteworthy one.
Which even makes me wonder about the strawman you were arguing against; is it a problem for one subclass to be somewhat stronger than other subclasses? You seem to concede that balance between the classes is a thing that is worth considering, and that it would hurt the game if the berserker constantly got that average of 6 or so more damage a turn. Why does that not work in reverse? If that is the benchmark of "too much" then why would the berserker being behind in general not be "too much"?
Not sure what you are trying to say. You've repeatedly said it should be played as something you can only do once on average, maybe twice. You even say again that it is "essentially 'Once per Long Rest' already." Again, things Im not arguing against! My point is, if that is already true, why also throw on exhaustion? If its too strong to have an entire pool of uses come back per long rest, then just make one use come back per long rest.
There are just better ways to let berserk-er do its thing and still be balanced.
For two levels, and only for one fight a session (if we are doing it right according to you).
Then lets be fair and talk about the level 6 ability in a different thread. Because no one is saying mindless rage is bad to begin with. We could talk about whether its worth being the sole class feature for 95% of every session until level 14.
I'll just leave it here, since literally the rest of your comment is just saying how good mindless rage is rather than addressing the faults in the 3rd level ability.
"A character can't benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period, and a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits."
Not according to the basic rules. Also, you'd really need to debate whether or not you can travel and rest with your dm. Sleeping in a moving vehicle isn't exactly regarded as refreshing as sleeping in a bed.
You literally described the feature as "poo" like a child, and said that the person who came up with the rule should feel bad, and instead of actually responding to my main point you've decided to be a spelling nazi (though I'm pretty sure hystrionics is also valid as spell-checking didn't flag it).
But thanks for neatly proving that part of my point, though I would have preferred if you'd actually engaged with the other more important part that you instead conspicuously ignored.
I should have been clearer knowing you'd seize on any excuse to ignore the actual point; I didn't mean you can normally take multiple long rests per day, I'm pointing out that 24 hours is three times the length of a long rest, it shouldn't take much imagination for a DM to allow a full day of rest to clear a couple of extra points of exhaustion if it's proving to be such a problem for the purposefully awkward campaign you've apparently designed to punish one specific player. It also doesn't change the fact that they do not need to accumulate that much exhaustion. If you have a Berserker in your unreasonably structured campaign then they shouldn't be taking more than one point unless they're willing to accept the trade off, or they could (and clearly should) find a better DM.
The main point that you ignored was that players should have opportunities to rest for several days here and there, especially after big grueling fights, between quests etc. And yet again, a Berserker doesn't need to accumulate multiple Exhaustion if they don't want to. I have made these points at least a dozen of times by now, though it feels like billions, and I don't know why I bother when clearly neither your nor kronzypantz bother to read them.
I do however realise by now that it is seemingly either beyond your capacity to grasp this, or that because it doesn't fit your argument that Berserkers and the players who like them are "poo" that you're never going to actually engage with it in any kind of reasonable discussion.
Once again, feats are not sub-class features, they have additional costs to take them, if your DM even permits them. And if they do, THE BERSERKER CAN TAKE IT AS WELL AND IT PERFECTLY COMPLEMENTS THEIR FRENZIED RAGE AND PLAY-STYLE TO DO SO. I realise that you thought you had a winning argument, but you only succeeded in highlighting how utterly forced your arguments here really are, and this wasn't even a valid one.
The defining characteristic of anti-Berxers appears to be a total inability to argue in good faith; if you can't argue without ignoring most of the points raised, then don't, because you're not winning, you're only highlighting how utterly vile some people can be when it comes to an irrational desire to spoil something fun for everyone else.
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Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
You’re right, I said “poo” as a means of self editing. Would you have preferred I said what I meant? In which case: “Great Galloping Gobs of Greased Goose Shit.” Better?
Yes, whoever wrote that mechanic should feel bad for being bad at their job. It’s a terrible design. If a MacDonalds employee ****ed up their job that bad they would get fired, or at least written up for it.
And I never once said anything about your spelling, I corrected my own spelling. (I wrote a “your” instead of a “you’re.” And My phone autocorrects the word “histrionics” so I had nothing to do with that. So, wtf are you even talking about?!?
If I had recognized you making any valid point I would have addressed it. I saw no valid point to address. If it was there I missed it.
So if I understand your arguments, your main points are:
Okay then, let’s tackle these one at a time for you.
That’s a point of mine that you seem to keep “conveniently ignoring.”
Thank you for proving my point.
That’s not a good argument, it’s not even a bad argument. It’s a non-argument.
I read your “argument” but as I’ve already pointed out, it’s terrible.
Don’t put words in my ******* mouth. I never said “the players who like Berserkers are poo.”
It is a completely valid argument that GWM makes Frenzied Rage even more useless when taken by a Berzerker.
I am allowed to think that the subclass in question is one of the worst in the whole game. I am allowed to share that opinion as I choose, especially in these forums. I have no desire to spoil anyone else’s idea of fun whatsoever. You’re welcome to disagree with my opinion. But if my voicing my opinion spoils your fun of the berserker, then that says more about how spoilable the Berserker is than it does about my opinion.
I have addressed every point you have made in good faith, but you’re the one devolving this into personal insults by calling me points “histrionics” (sorry “hystrionics”) and insulting my DMing. So this is where I tell you to take your terrible arguments, lube them with a light coating of that greased goose shit, and shove them squarely up your Berserker.
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I'm not even going to bother with any of this; you've ignored all of my points again, and invented a bunch I didn't make, all while being as rude and coarse and possible, this has gone full on frothing mouthed vitriol.
If you wanted to discuss the sub-class in good faith you had plenty of opportunity to engage with the points actually being raised, but you haven't; I can respond to you simply by saying "read what I actually said", as until you do you're not participating in a discussion, you're yelling incoherently at the wind.
And your doing that doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the Berserker sub-class, I had a blast playing as one, and a friend in my current main campaign is having a tonne of fun playing it, because we actually know how to use it. And that's what it comes down to; both your and kronzypantz's arguments rely on a player using the class incorrectly just so you can whine about it. Your own star argument is one that fell completely flat, as it requires the taking of a feat that a Berserker can also take (and gets more out of).
Sorry, but it's clear by this point that your objections to the class aren't based on any attempt whatsoever to play it properly; they're purely ideological. Some people just prefer to hate I guess; I prefer to have fun, and do, except in threads like this, which appear to attract the worst of what D&D shouldn't ever be.
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