I currently use a +3 battleaxe and +1 shield on my berserker barb. I have a choice between getting a +2 greataxe or +2 greatsword and i'm wondering, which is better overall? considering brutal criticals and i'll eventually have GWF and GWM. I'm building towards a 9 barb / 3 champion fighter (eventually a 16 barb 4 fighter) for better crit range and curious which weapon is better.
+3 battleaxe with a +1 shield, giving D8's on attack(1h) and extra defense for incoming attacks after reckless, also frees up an ASI that i dont have to spend on GWM allowing me to get something else. +2 greatsword with great weapon fighting and great weapon master, 2D6 and D6 dice on brutal critical +2 greataxe with GWF and GWM giving 1D12 damage and D12 brutal criticals.
With GWF from level 1 fighter and rerolling 1-2's i feel a greatsword would be more consistent damage but the top end suffers since brutal crit would only be a D6 not a D12. I don't know how to run the math to see what would be better overall though. Can anyone point me to a thread that might go over this? I wasn't able to find one.
If you're into number-crunching for the optimal build, why not polearm mastery and a +2 polearm? The free bonus attack and more readily available reaction attacks blow most other builds out of the water since rage damage is added to everything.
yeah i thought about just doing that but i'm not just going for pure number crunch i want it to make sense for a berserker. Polearm master wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for a raging berserker to be honest.
Then for damage you'd want the great sword because statistically you roll higher on 2D6 than you do on a 1D12. When you crit (a normal 5% chance or a 10% with the champion's improved critical) you do loose out on that little bit extra damage but in the end you'll do more damage with the 2D6. If you don't care about damage as much then pick whichever weapon you (or your character if they have a preference) like most.
I don't know statistics but I have read that you have a better probability to roll more damage on 2D6 than a 1D12. Only if your crit range is large would it be most beneficial to go with the 1D12 so you get the 2nd D12.
I hope that this answers your question.
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A d6, re-rolling 1s and 2s once only, has 16 possible outcomes. A 1 that becomes 1-6, a 2 that becomes 1-6 and 3-6. Averaging those 16 outcomes, you get 3.75, a slight edge over the 3.5 you get without re-rolling. So base damage of 2d6 is 7.5 on average. Brutal crits would be 5d6, 6d6 and 7d6, with averages of 18.75, 22.5 and 26.25.
A d12, re-rolling 1s and 2s once only, has 34 possible outcomes. A 1 that becomes 1-12, a 2 that becomes 1-12, and 3-12. Averaging those 34 outcomes gets you 6.794..., a slightly bigger edge over the 6.5 you would get without re-rolling. So base damage of 1d12 is 6.8 on average. Brutal crits would be 3d12, 4d12 and 5d12, with averages of 20.4, 27.2 and 34.
From levels 9-12, in order for the greataxe to do more damage than the greatsword, you would need every third hit to be a critical. Not going to happen, greatsword wins.
From levels 13-16, you would need every seventh hit to be a critical. Possible, but probably going to be a wash here. Greatsword or greataxe, difference would be minuscule.
At max level, you would need every twelfth hit to be a critical. Highly likely you will get more crits, at this level the greataxe will outdamage the greatsword.
I did all this just by doing basic averages and excel, I'm far from a statistics kinda guy, so someone may very well have something else to add that disputes this.
A d6, re-rolling 1s and 2s once only, has 16 possible outcomes. A 1 that becomes 1-6, a 2 that becomes 1-6 and 3-6. Averaging those 16 outcomes, you get 3.75, a slight edge over the 3.5 you get without re-rolling. So base damage of 2d6 is 7.5 on average. Brutal crits would be 5d6, 6d6 and 7d6, with averages of 18.75, 22.5 and 26.25.
A d12, re-rolling 1s and 2s once only, has 34 possible outcomes. A 1 that becomes 1-12, a 2 that becomes 1-12, and 3-12. Averaging those 34 outcomes gets you 6.794..., a slightly bigger edge over the 6.5 you would get without re-rolling. So base damage of 1d12 is 6.8 on average. Brutal crits would be 3d12, 4d12 and 5d12, with averages of 20.4, 27.2 and 34.
From levels 9-12, in order for the greataxe to do more damage than the greatsword, you would need every third hit to be a critical. Not going to happen, greatsword wins.
From levels 13-16, you would need every seventh hit to be a critical. Possible, but probably going to be a wash here. Greatsword or greataxe, difference would be minuscule.
At max level, you would need every twelfth hit to be a critical. Highly likely you will get more crits, at this level the greataxe will outdamage the greatsword.
I did all this just by doing basic averages and excel, I'm far from a statistics kinda guy, so someone may very well have something else to add that disputes this.
Is this taking into account just your reckless attack giving advantage or also including the 3 levels of Champion he was planning on picking up?
Champion yes, Reckless Attack no. But neither factored into the math, just how often you would need to crit on average in order for the greataxe to outdamage the greatsword.
Both Champion and Recklass Attack will increase the likelihood of a critical hit, but without getting really into the mathematics of it I'd say that at best it makes the greataxe more useful at the 13-16 Barbarian level range. With Champion being a requirement, that puts the greataxe as being more useful in the final tier of gameplay, character level 16-20, with the levels 16-19 being contingent on the additional, consistent use of Reckless Attack.
Reckless Attack basically doubles how many dice you need to roll before getting the crit. For instance, in the 9-12 levels you need every third hit to be a critical. Well, if each attack is Reckless then that is six rolls compared to the original three. Champion doubles your chance of a crit on each roll, from getting it once every twenty rolls to once every ten rolls. It almost never really averages out that way in practice though, so even though that should make the greataxe assuredly better than the greatsword at levels 13-16, in all likelihood it'll still be close and could vary either way.
For example, not every single attack will be a Reckless Attack. There will be circumstances where your character will not want to provide enemies with advantage, decreasing the odds of getting a critical hit and therefore decreasing the greataxe's utility in comparison to the greatsword.
yeah the math seems to match up with my assumption that greatsword is better average damage but great axe has bigger top end swings. I think i'll go with great sword for now and worst case maybe i can get a great axe later in the campaign. We're doing dungeon of the mad mage and i'm level 7 so i have plenty of time ;)
so i finally had the time to make a spreadsheet and do the math myself and after some testing running 500 rolls at a time the numbers are in...
level 13 stats (20 str with level 13 proficiency(+5), reckless, great weapon master on every attack) Gave myself a +13 to attack minus 5 for GWM putting my total attack bonus at +8. and raging, using a barb 9, fighter 4(champion) build. Also included the bonus die for brutal critical. Can easily adjust the formulas for lower levels
test 1 of 500 rolls using +3 greatsword Crit chance:11.0% average to hit: 21.102 average damage 28.94
test 2 of 500 rolls using +3 greatsword Crit chance:9.2% average to hit: 20.89 average damage 27.82
test 1 of 500 rolls using +3 Great Axe average Crit chance:10% average to hit: 21.224 average damage 24.64
test 2 of 500 rolls using +3 Great Axe Crit chance:13% average to hit: 21.63 average damage 24.8
so even with a slightly more lucky run on the greataxe, having a higher crit chance on their 1000 attacks by a slight margin the damage still averages out in favor of the greatsword :)
Assuming the below is correct, the greatsword will on average out-damage the greataxe, and they both greatly out-damage the battleaxe. Anyway, the greataxe and the greatsword are very close, so I'd choose whichever you enjoy visualizing your character wielding more.
Depends on what you want to go for. Greatsword will provide a slight damage benefit overall, but your damage will also be a lot more consistent, you are less likely to hit for massive damage or very weak attacks. So if you want a sort of go big or go home play MECHANICALLY, then a great axe is better, but if you want what is statistically ideal, then go for a greatsword.
Now you might also get tired of rolling several d6 per attack, but thats a different matter entirely.
I think it would also be worth considering sticking with the battle axe and shield. A +1 shield is a pretty nice boost to your AC, and a +3 Battle axe would be very consistent damage, though your overall DPS would be lower.
Really depends on what you want to go for overall though.
At Level 7, the great sword is better. The great ax evens it out at 9. The difference between the two is fairly negligible unless you can increase your critical range. 3 Levels in fighter for Champion and criticals on 19 push the great axe to be a bit better.
I currently use a +3 battleaxe and +1 shield on my berserker barb. I have a choice between getting a +2 greataxe or +2 greatsword and i'm wondering, which is better overall? considering brutal criticals and i'll eventually have GWF and GWM. I'm building towards a 9 barb / 3 champion fighter (eventually a 16 barb 4 fighter) for better crit range and curious which weapon is better.
+3 battleaxe with a +1 shield, giving D8's on attack(1h) and extra defense for incoming attacks after reckless, also frees up an ASI that i dont have to spend on GWM allowing me to get something else.
+2 greatsword with great weapon fighting and great weapon master, 2D6 and D6 dice on brutal critical
+2 greataxe with GWF and GWM giving 1D12 damage and D12 brutal criticals.
With GWF from level 1 fighter and rerolling 1-2's i feel a greatsword would be more consistent damage but the top end suffers since brutal crit would only be a D6 not a D12. I don't know how to run the math to see what would be better overall though. Can anyone point me to a thread that might go over this? I wasn't able to find one.
If you're into number-crunching for the optimal build, why not polearm mastery and a +2 polearm? The free bonus attack and more readily available reaction attacks blow most other builds out of the water since rage damage is added to everything.
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yeah i thought about just doing that but i'm not just going for pure number crunch i want it to make sense for a berserker. Polearm master wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for a raging berserker to be honest.
Why not? Impaling your enemies is pretty brutal and spears are a staple weapon of "primitive" or "barbarian" (for lack of a better term) cultures.
because i don't like polearm master and think it's an OP/overused feat, that's why it's not part of my actual question.
Then for damage you'd want the great sword because statistically you roll higher on 2D6 than you do on a 1D12. When you crit (a normal 5% chance or a 10% with the champion's improved critical) you do loose out on that little bit extra damage but in the end you'll do more damage with the 2D6. If you don't care about damage as much then pick whichever weapon you (or your character if they have a preference) like most.
I don't know statistics but I have read that you have a better probability to roll more damage on 2D6 than a 1D12. Only if your crit range is large would it be most beneficial to go with the 1D12 so you get the 2nd D12.
I hope that this answers your question.
Remember this is a game and it's suppose to be fun for everybody. Let's all have fun and kill monsters.
A d6, re-rolling 1s and 2s once only, has 16 possible outcomes. A 1 that becomes 1-6, a 2 that becomes 1-6 and 3-6. Averaging those 16 outcomes, you get 3.75, a slight edge over the 3.5 you get without re-rolling. So base damage of 2d6 is 7.5 on average. Brutal crits would be 5d6, 6d6 and 7d6, with averages of 18.75, 22.5 and 26.25.
A d12, re-rolling 1s and 2s once only, has 34 possible outcomes. A 1 that becomes 1-12, a 2 that becomes 1-12, and 3-12. Averaging those 34 outcomes gets you 6.794..., a slightly bigger edge over the 6.5 you would get without re-rolling. So base damage of 1d12 is 6.8 on average. Brutal crits would be 3d12, 4d12 and 5d12, with averages of 20.4, 27.2 and 34.
From levels 9-12, in order for the greataxe to do more damage than the greatsword, you would need every third hit to be a critical. Not going to happen, greatsword wins.
From levels 13-16, you would need every seventh hit to be a critical. Possible, but probably going to be a wash here. Greatsword or greataxe, difference would be minuscule.
At max level, you would need every twelfth hit to be a critical. Highly likely you will get more crits, at this level the greataxe will outdamage the greatsword.
I did all this just by doing basic averages and excel, I'm far from a statistics kinda guy, so someone may very well have something else to add that disputes this.
cool that's kind of what i was looking for i just didnt have time to plug it into a spreadsheet. thanks :)
Is this taking into account just your reckless attack giving advantage or also including the 3 levels of Champion he was planning on picking up?
Champion yes, Reckless Attack no. But neither factored into the math, just how often you would need to crit on average in order for the greataxe to outdamage the greatsword.
Both Champion and Recklass Attack will increase the likelihood of a critical hit, but without getting really into the mathematics of it I'd say that at best it makes the greataxe more useful at the 13-16 Barbarian level range. With Champion being a requirement, that puts the greataxe as being more useful in the final tier of gameplay, character level 16-20, with the levels 16-19 being contingent on the additional, consistent use of Reckless Attack.
Reckless Attack basically doubles how many dice you need to roll before getting the crit. For instance, in the 9-12 levels you need every third hit to be a critical. Well, if each attack is Reckless then that is six rolls compared to the original three. Champion doubles your chance of a crit on each roll, from getting it once every twenty rolls to once every ten rolls. It almost never really averages out that way in practice though, so even though that should make the greataxe assuredly better than the greatsword at levels 13-16, in all likelihood it'll still be close and could vary either way.
For example, not every single attack will be a Reckless Attack. There will be circumstances where your character will not want to provide enemies with advantage, decreasing the odds of getting a critical hit and therefore decreasing the greataxe's utility in comparison to the greatsword.
yeah the math seems to match up with my assumption that greatsword is better average damage but great axe has bigger top end swings. I think i'll go with great sword for now and worst case maybe i can get a great axe later in the campaign. We're doing dungeon of the mad mage and i'm level 7 so i have plenty of time ;)
so i finally had the time to make a spreadsheet and do the math myself and after some testing running 500 rolls at a time the numbers are in...
level 13 stats (20 str with level 13 proficiency(+5), reckless, great weapon master on every attack) Gave myself a +13 to attack minus 5 for GWM putting my total attack bonus at +8. and raging, using a barb 9, fighter 4(champion) build. Also included the bonus die for brutal critical. Can easily adjust the formulas for lower levels
test 1 of 500 rolls using +3 greatsword
Crit chance:11.0%
average to hit: 21.102
average damage 28.94
test 2 of 500 rolls using +3 greatsword
Crit chance:9.2%
average to hit: 20.89
average damage 27.82
test 1 of 500 rolls using +3 Great Axe
average Crit chance:10%
average to hit: 21.224
average damage 24.64
test 2 of 500 rolls using +3 Great Axe
Crit chance:13%
average to hit: 21.63
average damage 24.8
so even with a slightly more lucky run on the greataxe, having a higher crit chance on their 1000 attacks by a slight margin the damage still averages out in favor of the greatsword :)
if anyone would like to look at the sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IyRTm3NlFE19Ru3KlVnYtEJK9HismEeRNdWPboadjUE/edit?usp=sharing
One thing i did not have time to factor in was rerolling 1s and 2's on damage, which would bring the average up a bit overall i think.
Assuming the below is correct, the greatsword will on average out-damage the greataxe, and they both greatly out-damage the battleaxe. Anyway, the greataxe and the greatsword are very close, so I'd choose whichever you enjoy visualizing your character wielding more.
yep thats basically what i saw overall in my sheet too, what app is that?
The app is one I've been slowly developing, and I designed it specifically for questions like this. One of these days I hope to publish it!
cool :)
Depends on what you want to go for. Greatsword will provide a slight damage benefit overall, but your damage will also be a lot more consistent, you are less likely to hit for massive damage or very weak attacks. So if you want a sort of go big or go home play MECHANICALLY, then a great axe is better, but if you want what is statistically ideal, then go for a greatsword.
Now you might also get tired of rolling several d6 per attack, but thats a different matter entirely.
I think it would also be worth considering sticking with the battle axe and shield. A +1 shield is a pretty nice boost to your AC, and a +3 Battle axe would be very consistent damage, though your overall DPS would be lower.
Really depends on what you want to go for overall though.
At Level 7, the great sword is better. The great ax evens it out at 9. The difference between the two is fairly negligible unless you can increase your critical range. 3 Levels in fighter for Champion and criticals on 19 push the great axe to be a bit better.
I agree with the guy who mentioned polearms.
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Guys, pls."