At third level, the Path of the Beast Barbarian gets Form of the Beast, allowing the player to manifest natural weapons as part of their rage; the Claws option for this ability states that “When you take the Attack action on your turn and make an attack with your claws, you can make one additional attack using your claws as part of the same action.” This is very unclear to me. It could just be that you get the extra attack feature 2 levels early; it could just add an extra attack to the attack action that stacks with the 5th level extra attack feature; or it could mean that whenever you attack with the claws, you get twice as many attacks as you would if you used a different weapon.
I think it adds an attack that stacks with the 5th level Extra attack. I don't think you double your attacks because if they mean that I think they would have said "whenever" you make a claw attack you can make an additional claw attack instead of "When you take the Attack action" which technically only happens once.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It gives you two claw attacks. When you get extra attack, you can use it for any type of attack, but to get the second claw attack from the class feature, you must use the claws to attack at least once.
At third level, the Path of the Beast Barbarian gets Form of the Beast, allowing the player to manifest natural weapons as part of their rage; the Claws option for this ability states that “When you take the Attack action on your turn and make an attack with your claws, you can make one additional attack using your claws as part of the same action.” This is very unclear to me. It could just be that you get the extra attack feature 2 levels early; it could just add an extra attack to the attack action that stacks with the 5th level extra attack feature; or it could mean that whenever you attack with the claws, you get twice as many attacks as you would if you used a different weapon.
The “attack action” is the key wording.
attack action gives you 1. Period. At level 2. It’s still 1 attack action, but you have 2 attacks. With the path of the beast. If you make an attack, during your attack action, with your claws, you get 1 additional attack during the same action.
so it brings you to 3 total there. Or 2 if not yet level 5 for the second attack.
It gives you two claw attacks. When you get extra attack, you can use it for any type of attack, but to get the second claw attack from the class feature, you must use the claws to attack at least once.
an interesting thing of note....is the wording of the claw attacks themselves.
the first attack must be made with your claws. The “bonus” one, says “one additional attack USING your claws” now. RAI. They want you to make the attack with the claws again. But RAW. You can use your claws to swing a great axe. All they had to do to not have this wording loophole/problem/discrepancy, was word the extra one the same as the first one “...attack with your claws..”
“with” and “using” are two different words that do not mean the same thing.
claws can be used to... climb. Pick things up. Hold things...
Sentence one:
”attack WITH the claws”
sentence two: “attack USING your claws” not “with” your claws.
the tweet you’re referencing refers to “grapple” which is not an ATTACK. And “shove” which is not an ATTACK.
so, it is irrelevant to the discussion. As it had nothing to do with what I said.
the first attack must be WITH the claws themselves. The second attack, the claws just need to be used in the attack. (So no biting, kicking, head butting, casting a spell)
A grapple and shove are both attacks as defined in the PHB.
Hist tweet said "it can be an attack with your claws and nothing else". Irrelevant to the grapple question, the statement stands. He did clarify why a grapple and shove don't work, but that sentence still negates what you're trying to interpret.
You can attack with your claws and nothing else. No axe, no sword, no other weapon. Doing any of those is not attacking with your claws which the tweet said is the only attack it can be.
A grapple and shove are both attacks as defined in the PHB.
Hist tweet said "it can be an attack with your claws and nothing else". Irrelevant to the grapple question, the statement stands. He did clarify why a grapple and shove don't work, but that sentence still negates what you're trying to interpret.
You can attack with your claws and nothing else. No axe, no sword, no other weapon. Doing any of those is not attacking with your claws which the tweet said is the only attack it can be.
the attack, still was WITH the claws.
the 2nd part, is separate from the first part, which is the ATTACK, with the claws.
this is basic order of operations... (you know, PEMDAS) stuff.
then the 2nd part, says you make one additional attack USING (not with) your claws. I really don't know how much more I can spell this out without a mod giving me a ban, again. So, I'm done talking with you. As you are being willfully oblivious to the wording.
I think it adds an attack that stacks with the 5th level Extra attack. I don't think you double your attacks because if they mean that I think they would have said "whenever" you make a claw attack you can make an additional claw attack instead of "When you take the Attack action" which technically only happens once.
Viking Eric... notice how Ophidimancer too brings up "they would have said (quote) whenever (quote)..." the wording of things matter.
WITH was used for the initial attack that triggers the bonus 2nd attack. the bonus 2nd attack does NOT use the word USING, it uses "with".
Yes and that's why I asked the designer what he meant by the third attack and he clarified that it can only be "with" claws. What part of "it can be an attack with your claws and nothing else" isn't clear?
I think it adds an attack that stacks with the 5th level Extra attack. I don't think you double your attacks because if they mean that I think they would have said "whenever" you make a claw attack you can make an additional claw attack instead of "When you take the Attack action" which technically only happens once.
Viking Eric... notice how Ophidimancer too brings up "they would have said (quote) whenever (quote)..." the wording of things matter.
WITH was used for the initial attack that triggers the bonus 2nd attack. the bonus 2nd attack does NOT use the word USING, it uses "with".
Later.
For the sake of argument, what weapons could you make an attack where you are only using the claws and nothing else? Remember, not the hands that the claws are attached to, just the claws. Outside of something like silvers for your claws, I don't think that you're adding that much.
Nah, literally adding nothing. All flavor stuff like improvised weapon, or your claws stuck in a piece of wood (a club).
literally adds nothing mechanically. Is all flavor.
But, is worded RAW, that if someone were to want to instead do the flavor improvised thing using their claws, rather than the more effective attack with their claws, raw. They could.
rai. prob not intended. But that’s on them, their editors, and everyone for not just saying with 2x.
Yes and that's why I asked the designer what he meant by the third attack and he clarified that it can only be "with" claws. What part of "it can be an attack with your claws and nothing else" isn't clear?
It’s pretty nice how he doesn’t clarify. What a great clarification post from the guy.
instills a lot of confidence in his decisions that he’s able to clarify it by saying things like “when it was worded using instead of with that was not what was intended for raw or rai. What we meant was...”
but yeah. He gives no explanation. No clarification. Not sure I’d use him as a source to base arguments on in the future when his responses are along the lines of “it just does” or “don’t waste your time with people that disagree” “don’t have intellectual discussions based off of our actual rules...”
Either way, Sage Advice already clarified it as being only with the claws. So he probably, like any reasonable person, doesn't think it needs further clarification after "it can be an attack with your claws and nothing else".
Either way, Sage Advice already clarified it as being only with the claws. So he probably, like any reasonable person, doesn't think it needs further clarification after "it can be an attack with your claws and nothing else".
Sage advice is also rulings. Not rules. And is not raw.
things that are actual rules, and raw, get added as errata.
so, his opinion, is as much effecting the raw as yours or mine. As you insult me and call me unreasonable.
Either way, Sage Advice already clarified it as being only with the claws. So he probably, like any reasonable person, doesn't think it needs further clarification after "it can be an attack with your claws and nothing else".
Sage advice is also rulings. Not rules. And is not raw.
things that are actual rules, and raw, get added as errata.
so, his opinion, is as much effecting the raw as yours or mine. As you insult me and call me unreasonable.
If I was insulting someone, "unreasonable" is not on the list of words I would use.
Ultimately all the rules are just opinions, but he's the designer of the subclass so his opinion and ruling is germane to the question if whether or not you can use the 3rd attack to hit with a weapon instead of the claws. Even if you want to continue using the wording to defend the position, it's pointless.
But to be technical to the nth power, the wording says "your hands transform into claws" not "you grow claws on your hands". So by that wording, you don't have a way to hold a weapon anymore because you now have claws, not hands.
The real problem with the claws is that after a certain level they are outpaced by magic items and other attacks and become useless, a feature you will never use again after level 8-10 or so in most cases. If you do it will just be you actively choosing to do less damage than you could with an actual weapon. The 3rd attack wont make up for it.
This is why IMO around level 10 or so the dmg die should be bumped up to a d8. Doesn't 100% close the gap but it's close enough to make you actually want to keep using your claws rather than ignoring an entire feature of your subclass.
What if the your claw attacks' crit level went to 19-20 and you gained advantage on your claw attacks at 10? The benefit wouldn't apply to any other weapon attacks made by you that round.
I think I'm suffering an error while I was creating a Human Barbarian with 14 STR and 15 CON. If the human race have proficiencies in Light & Medium armor, then why the total AC only counts the normal base 10 plus dex bonus ( even if I'm wearing a Hide armor ) ????????????
Is it supposed to be Hide armor 12 AC plus Dex bonus ????
I think I'm suffering an error while I was creating a Human Barbarian with 14 STR and 15 CON. If the human race have proficiencies in Light & Medium armor, then why the total AC only counts the normal base 10 plus dex bonus ( even if I'm wearing a Hide armor ) ????????????
Is it supposed to be Hide armor 12 AC plus Dex bonus ????
If it's an error, how I can fix it ??
Barbarian has light and medium proficiency. Hide has 12+dex (max of 2). If your dex is 16 or higher, the AC won't increase without a feat. Your Constitution is actually high enough to match the hide armor with unarmored defense (which won't sttack with the hide armor, it's always 10+con mod+dex mod).
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At third level, the Path of the Beast Barbarian gets Form of the Beast, allowing the player to manifest natural weapons as part of their rage; the Claws option for this ability states that “When you take the Attack action on your turn and make an attack with your claws, you can make one additional attack using your claws as part of the same action.” This is very unclear to me. It could just be that you get the extra attack feature 2 levels early; it could just add an extra attack to the attack action that stacks with the 5th level extra attack feature; or it could mean that whenever you attack with the claws, you get twice as many attacks as you would if you used a different weapon.
I think it adds an attack that stacks with the 5th level Extra attack. I don't think you double your attacks because if they mean that I think they would have said "whenever" you make a claw attack you can make an additional claw attack instead of "When you take the Attack action" which technically only happens once.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It gives you two claw attacks. When you get extra attack, you can use it for any type of attack, but to get the second claw attack from the class feature, you must use the claws to attack at least once.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137390-weretouched-beasthide
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137424-weretouched-longtooth
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137431-weretouched-razorclaw
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137461-weretouched-swiftstride
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137646-weretouched-wildhunt
The “attack action” is the key wording.
attack action gives you 1. Period. At level 2. It’s still 1 attack action, but you have 2 attacks. With the path of the beast. If you make an attack, during your attack action, with your claws, you get 1 additional attack during the same action.
so it brings you to 3 total there. Or 2 if not yet level 5 for the second attack.
an interesting thing of note....is the wording of the claw attacks themselves.
the first attack must be made with your claws. The “bonus” one, says “one additional attack USING your claws” now. RAI. They want you to make the attack with the claws again. But RAW. You can use your claws to swing a great axe. All they had to do to not have this wording loophole/problem/discrepancy, was word the extra one the same as the first one “...attack with your claws..”
“with” and “using” are two different words that do not mean the same thing.
Blank
incorrect. "it can be an attack with the claws and nothing else"
"you can make one additional attack using your claws as part of the same action"
https://twitter.com/Dan_Dillon_1/status/1220198359698247680
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137390-weretouched-beasthide
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137424-weretouched-longtooth
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137431-weretouched-razorclaw
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137461-weretouched-swiftstride
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137646-weretouched-wildhunt
You literally repeated exactly what I said.
”using”
claws can be used to... climb. Pick things up. Hold things...
Sentence one:
”attack WITH the claws”
sentence two: “attack USING your claws” not “with” your claws.
the tweet you’re referencing refers to “grapple” which is not an ATTACK. And “shove” which is not an ATTACK.
so, it is irrelevant to the discussion. As it had nothing to do with what I said.
the first attack must be WITH the claws themselves. The second attack, the claws just need to be used in the attack. (So no biting, kicking, head butting, casting a spell)
Blank
A grapple and shove are both attacks as defined in the PHB.
Hist tweet said "it can be an attack with your claws and nothing else". Irrelevant to the grapple question, the statement stands. He did clarify why a grapple and shove don't work, but that sentence still negates what you're trying to interpret.
You can attack with your claws and nothing else. No axe, no sword, no other weapon. Doing any of those is not attacking with your claws which the tweet said is the only attack it can be.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137390-weretouched-beasthide
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137424-weretouched-longtooth
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137431-weretouched-razorclaw
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137461-weretouched-swiftstride
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137646-weretouched-wildhunt
the attack, still was WITH the claws.
the 2nd part, is separate from the first part, which is the ATTACK, with the claws.
this is basic order of operations... (you know, PEMDAS) stuff.
then the 2nd part, says you make one additional attack USING (not with) your claws. I really don't know how much more I can spell this out without a mod giving me a ban, again. So, I'm done talking with you. As you are being willfully oblivious to the wording.
Blank
Viking Eric... notice how Ophidimancer too brings up "they would have said (quote) whenever (quote)..." the wording of things matter.
WITH was used for the initial attack that triggers the bonus 2nd attack. the bonus 2nd attack does NOT use the word USING, it uses "with".
Later.
Blank
Yes and that's why I asked the designer what he meant by the third attack and he clarified that it can only be "with" claws. What part of "it can be an attack with your claws and nothing else" isn't clear?
So I asked for further clarification.
https://twitter.com/VikingWhisky/status/1224742260434182144?s=19
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137390-weretouched-beasthide
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137424-weretouched-longtooth
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137431-weretouched-razorclaw
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137461-weretouched-swiftstride
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137646-weretouched-wildhunt
For the sake of argument, what weapons could you make an attack where you are only using the claws and nothing else? Remember, not the hands that the claws are attached to, just the claws. Outside of something like silvers for your claws, I don't think that you're adding that much.
Nah, literally adding nothing. All flavor stuff like improvised weapon, or your claws stuck in a piece of wood (a club).
literally adds nothing mechanically. Is all flavor.
But, is worded RAW, that if someone were to want to instead do the flavor improvised thing using their claws, rather than the more effective attack with their claws, raw. They could.
rai. prob not intended. But that’s on them, their editors, and everyone for not just saying with 2x.
Blank
It’s pretty nice how he doesn’t clarify. What a great clarification post from the guy.
instills a lot of confidence in his decisions that he’s able to clarify it by saying things like “when it was worded using instead of with that was not what was intended for raw or rai. What we meant was...”
but yeah. He gives no explanation. No clarification. Not sure I’d use him as a source to base arguments on in the future when his responses are along the lines of “it just does” or “don’t waste your time with people that disagree” “don’t have intellectual discussions based off of our actual rules...”
Blank
Either way, Sage Advice already clarified it as being only with the claws. So he probably, like any reasonable person, doesn't think it needs further clarification after "it can be an attack with your claws and nothing else".
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137390-weretouched-beasthide
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137424-weretouched-longtooth
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137431-weretouched-razorclaw
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137461-weretouched-swiftstride
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137646-weretouched-wildhunt
Sage advice is also rulings. Not rules. And is not raw.
things that are actual rules, and raw, get added as errata.
so, his opinion, is as much effecting the raw as yours or mine. As you insult me and call me unreasonable.
Blank
Claws are the part of a an animals paw that are analogous to human fingernails. You can’t use a weapon with your fingernails, you use your hand.
If I was insulting someone, "unreasonable" is not on the list of words I would use.
Ultimately all the rules are just opinions, but he's the designer of the subclass so his opinion and ruling is germane to the question if whether or not you can use the 3rd attack to hit with a weapon instead of the claws. Even if you want to continue using the wording to defend the position, it's pointless.
But to be technical to the nth power, the wording says "your hands transform into claws" not "you grow claws on your hands". So by that wording, you don't have a way to hold a weapon anymore because you now have claws, not hands.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137390-weretouched-beasthide
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137424-weretouched-longtooth
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137431-weretouched-razorclaw
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137461-weretouched-swiftstride
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137646-weretouched-wildhunt
What if the your claw attacks' crit level went to 19-20 and you gained advantage on your claw attacks at 10? The benefit wouldn't apply to any other weapon attacks made by you that round.
I think I'm suffering an error while I was creating a Human Barbarian with 14 STR and 15 CON. If the human race have proficiencies in Light & Medium armor, then why the total AC only counts the normal base 10 plus dex bonus ( even if I'm wearing a Hide armor ) ????????????
Is it supposed to be Hide armor 12 AC plus Dex bonus ????
If it's an error, how I can fix it ??
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Barbarian has light and medium proficiency. Hide has 12+dex (max of 2). If your dex is 16 or higher, the AC won't increase without a feat. Your Constitution is actually high enough to match the hide armor with unarmored defense (which won't sttack with the hide armor, it's always 10+con mod+dex mod).