High elf bard level 5. Previous DM allowed her to equip a shield, gain the +2 to AC, and cast spells but disadvantage on ability checks for STR and DEX. New DM says equipping a shield does not give +2 to AC. I have no problem with either DM. I'm just trying to understand the rules. Looked up the below from the PHB.
So reading the below, should our bard be able to equip the bucker, gain +2 to AC, disadvantage on STR/DEX checks, and not be able to cast her spells?
Armor Proficiency. Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor's use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can't cast spells.
RAW, you've basically got it right... even if you're not proficient with Shields, equipping one gives you a +2 to your AC, but without proficiency there are so many downsides it's not worth doing.
If you really want to carry a shield, you have to play as a College of Valor bard... it grants proficiency with Medium Armor and Shields.
or multiclass dip; one of my bards has 1 level of life cleric and so while being college of lore, nevertheless gets proficiency with all armors, and with shields.
OTOH you can homebrew "Buckler" to be different than the standard rules that apply to shields in general. The concept behind a normal shield is that you grip an inner-side strap or handle with your hand in order to hold and control/wield it. Classically, a buckler was instead a much smaller object, so perhaps not as much base AC bonus, but you strap it to your forearm above the wrist, and the point of it was to leave your shield hand free for use. 3e had this distinction, and it should negate the 'can't cast spells' portion of equiping a shield. You probably need to keep the attribute penalties if not proficent, as it still does represent extra weight on your arm that you have to bear aloft all day.
Actually bucklers we’re not strapped to the wrist or forearm they were held in the off hand. So a buckler doesn’t solve the problem of a free hand. I would not allow it a +1 to AC due to its small size as well. The shield master feat wasn’t written with the buckler in mind either that probably calls for it’s own homebrew feat. So a buckler is not a solution for a caster needing to keep a hand free whatever it’s other benefits and problems are.
One interesting possible work around would be to consider the buckler as a musical instrument - the larger cymbal of a pair with the smaller being a thumb cymbal used to beat on the buckler to keep time. Then it could be your musical instrument and arcane focus. Used that way and as a homebrew item I would give it a +1AC, you can use your reaction to deflect 1 attack granting a +4 to your AC for one attack and allow you to use a bonus attack to attack with the buckler as part of two weapon fighting which everyone can do. When used that way I would give it a D4 and either bludgeoning (face) or slashing (edge) damage.
Actually bucklers we’re not strapped to the wrist or forearm they were held in the off hand. So a buckler doesn’t solve the problem of a free hand. I would not allow it a +1 to AC due to its small size as well. The shield master feat wasn’t written with the buckler in mind either that probably calls for it’s own homebrew feat. So a buckler is not a solution for a caster needing to keep a hand free whatever it’s other benefits and problems are.
Try this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckler all the illustrations and descriptions I’ve seen are hand held. Further think about an item strapped to the wrist or forearm and then hit with a sword (or other weapon) - the shield simply rotates on its straps and doesn’t do much in defense, you need some sort of cross brace or fixed hold to use it as a shield.
Try this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckler all the illustrations and descriptions I’ve seen are hand held. Further think about an item strapped to the wrist or forearm and then hit with a sword (or other weapon) - the shield simply rotates on its straps and doesn’t do much in defense, you need some sort of cross brace or fixed hold to use it as a shield.
Well harumph. On the one hand, the definition does say it can be used both ways and 3e did describe it as I have:
Buckler [Shield]
Maximum Dex Bonus:
Armor Check Penalty:
–1
Arcane Spell Failure Chance:
5%
Cost
Armor Bonus
Weight
Speed
(30ft)
(20ft)
15 gp
+1
5 lb.
Description
This small metal shield is strapped to the forearm, allowing it to be worn and still use the hand. A bow or crossbow can be used without penalty. An off-hand weapon can be used, but a -1 penalty on attack rolls is imposed because of the extra weight on your arm. This penalty stacks with those for fighting with the off hand and, if appropriate, for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if a weapon is used in the off-hand, the character doesn't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round.
----
On the other hand, the people I learn about medieval things from, seem to agree that bucklers are fist held items...
I would houserule/homebrew them to be the forearm versions for the sake of the game; with only a +1, I agree; but normal shields are already in the game, and what we are looking for is specifically something that can serve the function of a shield while allowing for the use of a free hand for the more fantastic reason of spellcasting.
I would perhaps imagine that the lack of spellcasting in the real world created a market where the benefits of fist held technique outweigh those of a free hand variety, and so those were more numerous/popular/availalbe/generally used/etc. over the forarm version; but in an economy with spell casters, there would be more demand for production of forarm worn bucklers and they would be found along side fist-held versions in near-equal numbers at armorer shops. Perhaps a version that can be used either way?
What you do in a fantasy game (and DND is definitely a fantasy game) is up to you. I try to base my fantasy off some sort of reality however. So I did a further quick search on bucklers attached to the wrist one of the better sights I found is: https://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15781#.YdtfVi9Om-o
like here it is a back and forth discussion forum for a group of enthusiasts but this time midevial fencing enthusiasts with a far deeper knowledge than I and probably all of us have on this issue. One of the interesting things is the images they posted in one one of the buckler wielders is clearly holding the buckler in his hand while the other is standing so we can’t actually se the grip but we see the buckler laying over the wrist and forearm somewhat giving the initial impression that it might be strapped to the wrist.when I tried positioning my arm like the diagram shows and measuring out possible diameters from a hand grip it was clear to me that it’s gripped in the hand not onto the forearm and is actually a bad perspective drawing. The discussion points out that carrying a buckler could be done on the wrist possibly but in combat normal use was holding it in the hand. As a martial artist and someone who has a little fencing and sword training I understand the theory and a bit of the practice they talk about. A shield is used to block/stop an attack, a buckler doesn’t block it deflects so the attack misses (and hopefully opens the foe to your counter). In many ways the buckler is an offensive weapon not a piece of defensive armor. I gave a suggested homebrew that meets the requirements of the DnD rules that fits with how the buckler was actually used if you want it. also, as someone who actually tried to edit Wikipedia when they found a minor error it turns out you can’t just go up and change it. You have to submit your change for review and or register as an editor providing some documentation that you are a legitimate ( more or less) personage for editorial rights. It turns out that unless you are looking up controversial topics Wikipedia is a very reliable source.
What you do in a fantasy game (and DND is definitely a fantasy game) is up to you. I try to base my fantasy off some sort of reality however. So I did a further quick search on bucklers attached to the wrist one of the better sights I found is: https://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15781#.YdtfVi9Om-o
like here it is a back and forth discussion forum for a group of enthusiasts but this time midevial fencing enthusiasts with a far deeper knowledge than I and probably all of us have on this issue. One of the interesting things is the images they posted in one one of the buckler wielders is clearly holding the buckler in his hand while the other is standing so we can’t actually se the grip but we see the buckler laying over the wrist and forearm somewhat giving the initial impression that it might be strapped to the wrist.when I tried positioning my arm like the diagram shows and measuring out possible diameters from a hand grip it was clear to me that it’s gripped in the hand not onto the forearm and is actually a bad perspective drawing. The discussion points out that carrying a buckler could be done on the wrist possibly but in combat normal use was holding it in the hand. As a martial artist and someone who has a little fencing and sword training I understand the theory and a bit of the practice they talk about. A shield is used to block/stop an attack, a buckler doesn’t block it deflects so the attack misses (and hopefully opens the foe to your counter). In many ways the buckler is an offensive weapon not a piece of defensive armor. I gave a suggested homebrew that meets the requirements of the DnD rules that fits with how the buckler was actually used if you want it. also, as someone who actually tried to edit Wikipedia when they found a minor error it turns out you can’t just go up and change it. You have to submit your change for review and or register as an editor providing some documentation that you are a legitimate ( more or less) personage for editorial rights. It turns out that unless you are looking up controversial topics Wikipedia is a very reliable source.
So basically with your homebrew a buckler's AC mod would be represented by the +1 AC bonus two weapon fighting proficiency gains, since it's sounding like "realistically" we're talking about a different style of fighting from traditional shield use anyway. That's kinda cool. What damage did your buckler do or am I misinterpreting your homebrew? That's sort of the make or break of the build is its standing within two weapon fighting (which in 5e just seems two easy to me under semblance of realism thinking).
I do prefer this line of thinking to the line of thinking of the buckler as a "gimme" AC bonus for Bards.
One interesting possible work around would be to consider the buckler as a musical instrument - the larger cymbal of a pair with the smaller being a thumb cymbal used to beat on the buckler to keep time. Then it could be your musical instrument and arcane focus. Used that way and as a homebrew item I would give it a +1AC, you can use your reaction to deflect 1 attack granting a +4 to your AC for one attack and allow you to use a bonus attack to attack with the buckler as part of two weapon fighting which everyone can do. When used that way I would give it a D4 and either bludgeoning (face) or slashing (edge) damage.
This was my initial post of the homebrew. +1 AC all the time, use your reaction to add +4 to AC for 1 attack, use your bonus action to make a second attack ( or third after L5) doing 1D4 damage - your option each such attack to have it be bludgeoning (using the broad face of the buckler) or slashing ( using the edge). And yes the reaction deflection could be a missile arrack not just a melee attack. If used with the thumb cymbal to create an instrument it could also function as a spell focus for a bard allowing them to cast while holding the buckler.
I've read historical text that had some buckler or small shield called targe that were strapped to the forearm. There is also game reference to it in D&D but if a DM prefer to have buckler as only hand held, it sure can.
Targe (from Old Franconian *targa "shield", Proto-Germanic *targo "border") was a general word for shield in late Old English. Its diminutive, target, came to mean an object to be aimed at in the 18th century. The term refers to various types of shields used by infantry troops from the 13th to 16th centuries, or earlier. More specifically, a targe was a concave shield fitted with enarmes on the inside, one adjustable by a buckle, to be attached to the forearm, and the other fixed as a grip for the left hand. These shields were mostly made of iron or iron-plated wood. From the 15th century, the term could also refer to special shields used for jousting.
...
A Highlander was usually armed with a broadsword or dagger in one hand and targe on his other arm for close combat. It was also common for a dirk to be held in the targe hand, with the blade extending below the targe.
Find me a primary source of people strapping a buckler to their forearm... I've never seen one but I'd be interested if there was an illustration that showed it. Having fenced with a buckler for a very long time, I doubt any real practical use of such a shield strapped to your forearm.
A solid modern example of a targe. My problem with such forearm and wrist straps is that they allow the shield to rotate around the arm when hit with a strong blow limiting their effectiveness. A hand grip instead of the wrist grip solves that problem but it is still bulky and limited in range and coverage compared to a hand held shield half to 2/3 that size.
Yeah, those are Targes. I don't know that I would categorize it as a buckler, but I suppose we're splitting hairs here. D&D doesn't care - a shield is a shield.
High elf bard level 5. Previous DM allowed her to equip a shield, gain the +2 to AC, and cast spells but disadvantage on ability checks for STR and DEX. New DM says equipping a shield does not give +2 to AC. I have no problem with either DM. I'm just trying to understand the rules. Looked up the below from the PHB.
So reading the below, should our bard be able to equip the bucker, gain +2 to AC, disadvantage on STR/DEX checks, and not be able to cast her spells?
Armor Proficiency. Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor's use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can't cast spells.
Well it will depend what a buckler actually do if it's an homebrew item.
For a regular shield, Bards don't start with proficiency but some College can grant it at L3.
Equipping a shield occupy a hand and does the following;
Proficient: +2 AC
Not Proficient: +2 AC, disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can't cast spells
RAW, you've basically got it right... even if you're not proficient with Shields, equipping one gives you a +2 to your AC, but without proficiency there are so many downsides it's not worth doing.
If you really want to carry a shield, you have to play as a College of Valor bard... it grants proficiency with Medium Armor and Shields.
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or multiclass dip; one of my bards has 1 level of life cleric and so while being college of lore, nevertheless gets proficiency with all armors, and with shields.
OTOH you can homebrew "Buckler" to be different than the standard rules that apply to shields in general. The concept behind a normal shield is that you grip an inner-side strap or handle with your hand in order to hold and control/wield it. Classically, a buckler was instead a much smaller object, so perhaps not as much base AC bonus, but you strap it to your forearm above the wrist, and the point of it was to leave your shield hand free for use. 3e had this distinction, and it should negate the 'can't cast spells' portion of equiping a shield. You probably need to keep the attribute penalties if not proficent, as it still does represent extra weight on your arm that you have to bear aloft all day.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Actually bucklers we’re not strapped to the wrist or forearm they were held in the off hand. So a buckler doesn’t solve the problem of a free hand. I would not allow it a +1 to AC due to its small size as well. The shield master feat wasn’t written with the buckler in mind either that probably calls for it’s own homebrew feat. So a buckler is not a solution for a caster needing to keep a hand free whatever it’s other benefits and problems are.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
One interesting possible work around would be to consider the buckler as a musical instrument - the larger cymbal of a pair with the smaller being a thumb cymbal used to beat on the buckler to keep time. Then it could be your musical instrument and arcane focus. Used that way and as a homebrew item I would give it a +1AC, you can use your reaction to deflect 1 attack granting a +4 to your AC for one attack and allow you to use a bonus attack to attack with the buckler as part of two weapon fighting which everyone can do. When used that way I would give it a D4 and either bludgeoning (face) or slashing (edge) damage.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Bucklers could be both actually. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/buckler#
Try this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckler
all the illustrations and descriptions I’ve seen are hand held. Further think about an item strapped to the wrist or forearm and then hit with a sword (or other weapon) - the shield simply rotates on its straps and doesn’t do much in defense, you need some sort of cross brace or fixed hold to use it as a shield.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Wiki may be unreliable being editable by anyone. The Oxford Language also describe bucklers as shield that can be worn on the forearm. https://www.google.com/search?q=buckler&rlz=1C1GCEU_enCA821CA821&oq=buckler&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j0i512l3j69i60l2.4970j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Well harumph. On the one hand, the definition does say it can be used both ways and 3e did describe it as I have:
Bonus
----
On the other hand, the people I learn about medieval things from, seem to agree that bucklers are fist held items...
An introduction to the buckler (aka the "puny" mini-shield) - YouTube
The most iconic SHIELD types of history - YouTube
I would houserule/homebrew them to be the forearm versions for the sake of the game; with only a +1, I agree; but normal shields are already in the game, and what we are looking for is specifically something that can serve the function of a shield while allowing for the use of a free hand for the more fantastic reason of spellcasting.
I would perhaps imagine that the lack of spellcasting in the real world created a market where the benefits of fist held technique outweigh those of a free hand variety, and so those were more numerous/popular/availalbe/generally used/etc. over the forarm version; but in an economy with spell casters, there would be more demand for production of forarm worn bucklers and they would be found along side fist-held versions in near-equal numbers at armorer shops. Perhaps a version that can be used either way?
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
What you do in a fantasy game (and DND is definitely a fantasy game) is up to you. I try to base my fantasy off some sort of reality however. So I did a further quick search on bucklers attached to the wrist one of the better sights I found is: https://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15781#.YdtfVi9Om-o
like here it is a back and forth discussion forum for a group of enthusiasts but this time midevial fencing enthusiasts with a far deeper knowledge than I and probably all of us have on this issue. One of the interesting things is the images they posted in one one of the buckler wielders is clearly holding the buckler in his hand while the other is standing so we can’t actually se the grip but we see the buckler laying over the wrist and forearm somewhat giving the initial impression that it might be strapped to the wrist.when I tried positioning my arm like the diagram shows and measuring out possible diameters from a hand grip it was clear to me that it’s gripped in the hand not onto the forearm and is actually a bad perspective drawing. The discussion points out that carrying a buckler could be done on the wrist possibly but in combat normal use was holding it in the hand. As a martial artist and someone who has a little fencing and sword training I understand the theory and a bit of the practice they talk about. A shield is used to block/stop an attack, a buckler doesn’t block it deflects so the attack misses (and hopefully opens the foe to your counter). In many ways the buckler is an offensive weapon not a piece of defensive armor. I gave a suggested homebrew that meets the requirements of the DnD rules that fits with how the buckler was actually used if you want it.
also, as someone who actually tried to edit Wikipedia when they found a minor error it turns out you can’t just go up and change it. You have to submit your change for review and or register as an editor providing some documentation that you are a legitimate ( more or less) personage for editorial rights. It turns out that unless you are looking up controversial topics Wikipedia is a very reliable source.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
So basically with your homebrew a buckler's AC mod would be represented by the +1 AC bonus two weapon fighting proficiency gains, since it's sounding like "realistically" we're talking about a different style of fighting from traditional shield use anyway. That's kinda cool. What damage did your buckler do or am I misinterpreting your homebrew? That's sort of the make or break of the build is its standing within two weapon fighting (which in 5e just seems two easy to me under semblance of realism thinking).
I do prefer this line of thinking to the line of thinking of the buckler as a "gimme" AC bonus for Bards.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
This was my initial post of the homebrew. +1 AC all the time, use your reaction to add +4 to AC for 1 attack, use your bonus action to make a second attack ( or third after L5) doing 1D4 damage - your option each such attack to have it be bludgeoning (using the broad face of the buckler) or slashing ( using the edge). And yes the reaction deflection could be a missile arrack not just a melee attack. If used with the thumb cymbal to create an instrument it could also function as a spell focus for a bard allowing them to cast while holding the buckler.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I've read historical text that had some buckler or small shield called targe that were strapped to the forearm. There is also game reference to it in D&D but if a DM prefer to have buckler as only hand held, it sure can.
If you look at Targe - Wikipedia ;
Find me a primary source of people strapping a buckler to their forearm... I've never seen one but I'd be interested if there was an illustration that showed it. Having fenced with a buckler for a very long time, I doubt any real practical use of such a shield strapped to your forearm.
A solid modern example of a targe. My problem with such forearm and wrist straps is that they allow the shield to rotate around the arm when hit with a strong blow limiting their effectiveness. A hand grip instead of the wrist grip solves that problem but it is still bulky and limited in range and coverage compared to a hand held shield half to 2/3 that size.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Such shield may be less effective, hence the lower bonus AC +1 rather than +2 ☺
There's also the kalkan shield or Ottoman used in Turkey and Poland in the XV-XVII century by archers that could be attached to the forearm. http://bearwayarchery.blogspot.com/2016/08/use-of-kalkan-shield-or-teenage-mutant.html
Yeah, those are Targes. I don't know that I would categorize it as a buckler, but I suppose we're splitting hairs here. D&D doesn't care - a shield is a shield.
This is an Italian targe -