I am currently playing a Tiefling Bard in Curse of Strahd, we just finished death house and advanced to level 3. Our group consists of a Swashbuckler Rogue, Battlemaster Fighter, Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer, Moon Druid and myself. The party doesn't have a wizard, paladin or cleric because our DM made us roll for the individual ability scores and we weren't allowed to mix and match where we put our rolls.
From my understanding College of Lore would allow for me to fill in, in a way for the classes we are missing in terms of picking up their spells. However Eloquence looks like tons of fun to play. What I am asking is with our parties composition what would the pros and cons of picking up one over the other be, and would one be more helpful in the long run for the group?
Currently playing an Eloquence Bard, almost level 10.
Lore will be a better generalist. You will get 3 extra skill proficiencies and at later level can add bardic inspiration to ability checks, making you a more reliable skill monkey. Cutting Words can help protect your party. Your buddy is about to go down from the next attack? Drop Cutting Words so the next attack misses. The extra 2 Magical Secrets is another win. You can grab counterspell early, which will help if your Sorcerer doesn't pick it up. Shield might be another good pick to boost your survivability.
Eloquence will be better if you have specific build goals. If you want to be a better party face, Eloquence is great. Silver Tongue helps smooth things over so you can't fail too hard, even if you as a player aren't good with words. Unsettling Words is phenomenal if you want to play a debuffer/control style, using a lot of save or suck spells against enemies. The two Bardic Inspiration features are solid too, but bardic inspiration relies a lot on player skill / strategy. Experienced players can make great use of inspiration, but new players might not know when/how to use it well. These features can help so you don't have to worry about 'wasting' inspirations, but your mileage may vary.
Lore is a bit simpler and reliably helpful with a variety of skills. Eloquence is great if you're going to be the party face or want to build debuff/control. Both subclasses are great, you won't be disappointed with either choice. Think about the play style you want to go for and let that inform which one will be better.
Silver Tongue helps smooth things over so you can't fail too hard
I would say that Silver Tongue actually makes it very difficult to fail at all in the first place; if you put expertise into Deception and/or Persuasion then with a +3 Charisma you can have +7 on your rolls at 3rd-level, with a minimum of 10 you can't fail any Moderate or easier check, and you've a pretty good chance of passing a Hard check without any additional bonuses like enhance ability or whatever. Around 10th-level you're probably looking at +11 or better, meaning you automatically pass Hard checks as well. For opposed checks your opponent needs to roll pretty damn high (and if it's a save you can use unsettling words to make it unlikely to beat you).
If yours is a campaign that has/will have a lot of social checks it's definitely worth discussing this with your DM otherwise it's going to feel like putting that aspect of the game into easy mode; personally I've found the best way to run it is with the DM thinking more about degrees of success, i.e- an auto-pass may get you most of what you wanted, but there may be some drawbacks (maybe they take you very literally, slightly twist what you said, or maybe they help you but will be more reluctant in future because you asked a lot, maybe a guard lets you pass but is suspicious enough to have you watched etc.). It's something I like to see in games regardless, i.e- there are good successes and less good successes, bad failures and less bad failures etc.
Both are great for different reasons. Eloquence is by far my favorite subclass, though. If you go with EB make sure you take expertise in Persuasion and Deception, and pump your Charisma as high as you can.
At level 3 you're rolling a minimum of 15 on your Persuasion and Deception checks. At level 5 it's a minimum of 20.
Unsettling Words as a bonus action to prep a Save spell is really powerful. All the other subclass features are great and they all have synergy with each other.
You’ve got a pretty balanced party composition, so both Lore Bard and the Eloquence Bard make for fine choices.
Lore Bard is a great subclass, to me, for getting those two extra spells you absolutely NEED at low levels, while being great with a multitude of skills. “Cutting Words” is a nifty feature for those moments when you need to impose a penalty to an enemy’s attack…interestingly, it can be used on initiative rolls: so you can potentially reduce a particularly nasty enemy’s turn order WAY down, allowing your party to attack them first (as long as your allies did not roll super low). On the other hand, it’s important to note that if an enemy is immune to charm; “Cutting Words” does not work on them…so remember that if you find yourself facing a particularly “charming” boss battle!
Eloquence Bard doubles-down on everything that makes the Bard…you become a silver-tongued master of negotiation…you gain a capacity to communicate in nearly every social encounter, with known languages no longer a huge obstacle…your Bardic Inspiration for your allies will no longer be wasted if they miss their target…but their best feature, in my mind, is their “Unsettling Words”: to be able to impose a penalty to SAVING THROWS, as a BONUS ACTION, with your own Bardic Inspiration dice, is incredibly powerful…some of the most devastating spells require a saving throw; and roughly half the time, if the enemy succeeds on the saving throw, nothing happens, and the spell is wasted. Now the Eloquence Bard can distract their target as a bonus action; then cast their big spell, and have reliable confidence that it will WORK. Add to that, you will be getting those Bardic Inspiration back every time you take a Short Rest, which means you get to use this feature VERY often.
Not to mention, “Unsettling Words” helps set your party up for success…if another caster in your party has a big spell queued up, “Unsettling Words” will work for their “big spells”…likewise, if your Battlemaster Fighter has a maneuver with a saving throw, “Unsettling Words” works for those, as well.
Personally, I would go with Eloquence Bard…you trade versatility for mastery.
Eloquence bard is hand's down my favorite kind of bard, but it basically needs one of two situations to sing.
1. Be in a party that has casters focusing on saving throws; you're ability to penalize saving throws is second to none and you will be able to brute force failure onto the most unlikely of targets via unsettling words and bane; someone effected by both will be looking at a an aveage of 5 or 6 penalty to start and that only gets harder as you level more and more.
2. Socially Eloquence bards are basically able to run the table; with silver tongue and proficiency in Deception and proficiency you might as well be a Bene Jeserit from Dune because as soon as you open your mouth people will believe everything that you say since your minimum roll at level 3 will be a 17 and by level 5 that will become a 20.
The trade off is that while you are amazing at these two things (as well as being obnoxious with your BI going all over the place) you're not really bringing a lot to the table if you aren't in those kinds of situations and that can be a bit of a pill to swallow.
With your party composition I would recommend Lore, with that you can easily fill those few skill gaps your party has and magical secrets can let you fill in those crucial spells your party will need.
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I am currently playing a Tiefling Bard in Curse of Strahd, we just finished death house and advanced to level 3. Our group consists of a Swashbuckler Rogue, Battlemaster Fighter, Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer, Moon Druid and myself. The party doesn't have a wizard, paladin or cleric because our DM made us roll for the individual ability scores and we weren't allowed to mix and match where we put our rolls.
From my understanding College of Lore would allow for me to fill in, in a way for the classes we are missing in terms of picking up their spells. However Eloquence looks like tons of fun to play. What I am asking is with our parties composition what would the pros and cons of picking up one over the other be, and would one be more helpful in the long run for the group?
Currently playing an Eloquence Bard, almost level 10.
Lore will be a better generalist. You will get 3 extra skill proficiencies and at later level can add bardic inspiration to ability checks, making you a more reliable skill monkey. Cutting Words can help protect your party. Your buddy is about to go down from the next attack? Drop Cutting Words so the next attack misses. The extra 2 Magical Secrets is another win. You can grab counterspell early, which will help if your Sorcerer doesn't pick it up. Shield might be another good pick to boost your survivability.
Eloquence will be better if you have specific build goals. If you want to be a better party face, Eloquence is great. Silver Tongue helps smooth things over so you can't fail too hard, even if you as a player aren't good with words. Unsettling Words is phenomenal if you want to play a debuffer/control style, using a lot of save or suck spells against enemies. The two Bardic Inspiration features are solid too, but bardic inspiration relies a lot on player skill / strategy. Experienced players can make great use of inspiration, but new players might not know when/how to use it well. These features can help so you don't have to worry about 'wasting' inspirations, but your mileage may vary.
Lore is a bit simpler and reliably helpful with a variety of skills. Eloquence is great if you're going to be the party face or want to build debuff/control. Both subclasses are great, you won't be disappointed with either choice. Think about the play style you want to go for and let that inform which one will be better.
I would say that Silver Tongue actually makes it very difficult to fail at all in the first place; if you put expertise into Deception and/or Persuasion then with a +3 Charisma you can have +7 on your rolls at 3rd-level, with a minimum of 10 you can't fail any Moderate or easier check, and you've a pretty good chance of passing a Hard check without any additional bonuses like enhance ability or whatever. Around 10th-level you're probably looking at +11 or better, meaning you automatically pass Hard checks as well. For opposed checks your opponent needs to roll pretty damn high (and if it's a save you can use unsettling words to make it unlikely to beat you).
If yours is a campaign that has/will have a lot of social checks it's definitely worth discussing this with your DM otherwise it's going to feel like putting that aspect of the game into easy mode; personally I've found the best way to run it is with the DM thinking more about degrees of success, i.e- an auto-pass may get you most of what you wanted, but there may be some drawbacks (maybe they take you very literally, slightly twist what you said, or maybe they help you but will be more reluctant in future because you asked a lot, maybe a guard lets you pass but is suspicious enough to have you watched etc.). It's something I like to see in games regardless, i.e- there are good successes and less good successes, bad failures and less bad failures etc.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Both are great for different reasons. Eloquence is by far my favorite subclass, though. If you go with EB make sure you take expertise in Persuasion and Deception, and pump your Charisma as high as you can.
At level 3 you're rolling a minimum of 15 on your Persuasion and Deception checks. At level 5 it's a minimum of 20.
Unsettling Words as a bonus action to prep a Save spell is really powerful. All the other subclass features are great and they all have synergy with each other.
You’ve got a pretty balanced party composition, so both Lore Bard and the Eloquence Bard make for fine choices.
Lore Bard is a great subclass, to me, for getting those two extra spells you absolutely NEED at low levels, while being great with a multitude of skills. “Cutting Words” is a nifty feature for those moments when you need to impose a penalty to an enemy’s attack…interestingly, it can be used on initiative rolls: so you can potentially reduce a particularly nasty enemy’s turn order WAY down, allowing your party to attack them first (as long as your allies did not roll super low). On the other hand, it’s important to note that if an enemy is immune to charm; “Cutting Words” does not work on them…so remember that if you find yourself facing a particularly “charming” boss battle!
Eloquence Bard doubles-down on everything that makes the Bard…you become a silver-tongued master of negotiation…you gain a capacity to communicate in nearly every social encounter, with known languages no longer a huge obstacle…your Bardic Inspiration for your allies will no longer be wasted if they miss their target…but their best feature, in my mind, is their “Unsettling Words”: to be able to impose a penalty to SAVING THROWS, as a BONUS ACTION, with your own Bardic Inspiration dice, is incredibly powerful…some of the most devastating spells require a saving throw; and roughly half the time, if the enemy succeeds on the saving throw, nothing happens, and the spell is wasted. Now the Eloquence Bard can distract their target as a bonus action; then cast their big spell, and have reliable confidence that it will WORK. Add to that, you will be getting those Bardic Inspiration back every time you take a Short Rest, which means you get to use this feature VERY often.
Not to mention, “Unsettling Words” helps set your party up for success…if another caster in your party has a big spell queued up, “Unsettling Words” will work for their “big spells”…likewise, if your Battlemaster Fighter has a maneuver with a saving throw, “Unsettling Words” works for those, as well.
Personally, I would go with Eloquence Bard…you trade versatility for mastery.
Eloquence bard is hand's down my favorite kind of bard, but it basically needs one of two situations to sing.
1. Be in a party that has casters focusing on saving throws; you're ability to penalize saving throws is second to none and you will be able to brute force failure onto the most unlikely of targets via unsettling words and bane; someone effected by both will be looking at a an aveage of 5 or 6 penalty to start and that only gets harder as you level more and more.
2. Socially Eloquence bards are basically able to run the table; with silver tongue and proficiency in Deception and proficiency you might as well be a Bene Jeserit from Dune because as soon as you open your mouth people will believe everything that you say since your minimum roll at level 3 will be a 17 and by level 5 that will become a 20.
The trade off is that while you are amazing at these two things (as well as being obnoxious with your BI going all over the place) you're not really bringing a lot to the table if you aren't in those kinds of situations and that can be a bit of a pill to swallow.
With your party composition I would recommend Lore, with that you can easily fill those few skill gaps your party has and magical secrets can let you fill in those crucial spells your party will need.