Sooooooooooooooo I play a Rock Gnome Bard of Lore in a campaign that's been going on for around a year and a half now and the party just hit level 10, and I want to make sure that my bard is filling a nice supporting caster role without being made redundant by the other party members.
My party currently consists of:
Human Paladin of Devotion Half Elf Assassin Rogue Vanilla Tiefling Conjuration Wizard Goblin Monk of the Open Hand Dark Elf Gunslinger Fighter
As a Lore Bard I'd previously taken Eldritch Blast and Fly for my level 6 extracurricular spells, and they both have gotten a lot of use. I have also decided to take Guardian of Faith as one of my 10th level magical secrets already due to lack of concentration required, the ability to strategically place it for offensive and defensive purposes, and the amazing amount of flavor in the description. As for the remaining spell, I've admittedly been a bit torn between deciding what could help my bard continue to be useful to the party.
As another magical secret I was debating between the following spells:
*Beacon of Hope (Aside from the paladin's lay on hands I'm the only character capable of performing magical healing, and I feel like this spell could help me get the most effect out of my spell slots used for healing. Also figuring the maximized healing would also apply to potions, the monk's wholeness of body, and the fighter's second wind... which makes it seem like a very attractive option for using those resources to their fullest potential.)
*Circle of Power (Get the feeling the defensive benefits of this would be amazing, especially if we all stay close to the paladin... also if party members stay close I'll be more likely to be able to use cure wounds in a pinch instead of needing to use healing word.)
*Counterspell (I'm aware jack of all trades allows bards to be the best dispellers/counterspellers, although the wizard also has counterspell and I'm worried about that redundancy.)
*Destructive Wave (I really like how it's flavored as a superthunderwave, but it also requires me to be closer to enemies, which could present other problems, especially since I move more slowly than everybody when not on a mount as a gnome.)
*Steel Wind Strike (I usually suck at combat compared to my fellow party members, although this caught my eye when I noticed that the Fighter has a penchant for using a magic ring to teleport up into an enemy's face and wail on them super hard with a sword in one hand and a pistol in the other. They're both pretty buddy-buddy with eachother so I imagine that if my bard takes this it'd be like he's been getting inspiration from watching his teammates on how to get stronger. Plus the damage is pretty massive, it's especially handy around multiple foes, and provides you with a short range teleport... that puts you right into the enemy's reach... that has me ever so slightly worried.)
*Telekinesis (I think this could be really cool for the environment/subduing enemies by lifting them off the ground. Although I am fully aware that it can only target one thing at a time... which is a bit of a bummer and the only real reason I haven't immediately plugged this spell in as my second.)
*Wall of Force/Wall of Stone (I get the feeling that barrier-spells will be very handy to have, and on the subject of these two I feel rather torn between their unique benefits... with force being completely indestructible so long as you can keep concentration, and stone being able to create permanent walls over time and other structures like crude bridges.)
Any thoughts on the listed spells or other suggestions? I've been suffering from an extreme case of analysis-paralysis on this for a while.
I do understand the utility of Find Greater Steed, though the reason I hadn't included it in my list was because my bard has actually been using a saint bernard doggo as a mount since very early on in the campaign, and I plan on using the Awaken spell on him as soon as I can get my hands on that costly material component.
Counterspell and Telekinesis are two spells that are weaker on the list.
The Destructive Wave is dangerous since you need to be close to enemies.
Don't waste your magical secrets on getting Wall of Force/Wall of Stone. Instead I'd suggest getting plant growth which is a bard spell at 3rd level.
Steel Wind Strike I don't know much about but seeing as how you mentioned up close combat with it I'd say maybe not. Usually bards do more damage with their spells than their combat attacks.
In the end Beacon of Hope and Circle of Power seem like your best options. I don't know you're party nearly as well as you do so I'd say narrow your choices down to those two.
Your biggest considerations are probably going to be what are competing spells. Think back to how often you had different spell levels available - for example, you might blow all your 1st- and 3rd-level slots quickly but stack up 2nd-level slots that mostly get used to tune up 1st-level spells; in this case, you might want to pick up a useful spell like Mirror Image or Spiritual Weapon. You'll want to avoid concentration spells unless you find you're not often concentrating. Don't duplicate any options that your Bard list can handle. Also recommend keeping them lower-level where possible; as your level pushes double digits, 1st-level spells tend to be used less, but Shield can be great all day long; contrarily, taking a slick 5th-level spell seems great until you realize you can only cast it once per day and you have other spells you want to use that slot for.
Counterspell. It doesn't matter if wizard already has it, the character can only do it once a round with a reaction. So in a given round against multiple spellcasters, you having a more effective counterspell could be clutch if you haven't already used your reaction for cutting words or something.
After getting the chance to talk with the wizard I was able to come to a similar opinion regarding Wall of Force, Steel Wind Strike, an Destructive Wave. Steel Wind Strike and Destructive Wave would, more often than not, put my character in an extremely risky position, and I was also able to figure out that the wizard was already taking Wall of Force. Going to update the list at the top accordingly.
My spell trends combat-wise are as follows: a) Using a multi-target buff on the party like Heroism (my go-to spell), Fly (if the terrain is causing movement problems), or Greater Invisibility (which is only single-target, but great for turning the rogue into pointy death incarnate). b) Causing disjunction in enemy ranks with Confusion if my starting position keeps me from touching many of my party members at a time. b) Spreading heals where needed through Healing word/Cure wounds. c) Peppering away at enemies with Eldritch Blast/Vicious Mockery as the situation demands. d) Creating alternative solutions to combats through use of Sleep, Suggestion, or Major Image. e) Utilitarian use of dispel magic.
Outside of combat I've also been able to use Prestidigitation, Mending, Unearthly Chorus, Suggestion, Invisibility, and Fly to decent effect... pretty sure I can use Major Image for lots of things outside of combat too though I have yet to apply it in these ways, mainly looking forward to when I can cast it at 6th level without having to worry about concentration.
Counterspell. It doesn't matter if wizard already has it, the character can only do it once a round with a reaction. So in a given round against multiple spellcasters, you having a more effective counterspell could be clutch if you haven't already used your reaction for cutting words or something.
My dm and 2 of my party members were also recommending counterspell for similar reasons, although I'm unsure how specialized for an anti-caster approach I want to be since counterspell wouldn't have any function outside of combating spellcasters... then again the same would technically go for Circle of Power since the nifty party-bonuses only apply to magical effects... hrm...
Sorry, the way I worded Counterspell made it sound like I thought it was crap. What I meant to say is that it doesn't as much as the top two choices I mentioned in your role as a support/healer bard.
Well for my money Bigby’s Hand, Conjure Animals, and Spirit Guardians would all be excellent options. If you want healing, Healing Spirit would be a great option, excellent in and out of combat, though it does require concentration.
Most DM's let you pick the animals, pick (giant possibly) constrictor snakes for the relatively free advantage to hits etc.
Find Greater Steed and Conjure Elemental at levle 10.
There are few things better than a flying griffon. Mounted you have great mobility, and when you close on the mob and need extra damage, dismount and it gets some good licks in.
Now, use a Reverse Magic circle, Conjure Elemental and Planar Binding to conjure a water elemental who'll fight for you also, without requiring concentration for 30/180/366 days before you need a new gem for a recast.
Use your concentration to cast Conjure Animals, or for extra creativity if you're a canny multiclasser with 2 level of warlock and 6 of Shadow Sorcerer, use a Shadow Hound and Hold Monster/Person to enable every hit that you, your water elemental and your griffon make as a critical on a hold that the mob in't going to get out of.
Hold Person/Monstre route:-
For me that'd be 16d10 + 40 + 48 if curse is free (EB+ and Quickened EB+).
For my Hound of ill Omen add 4d6 + 3.
For my Griffon add 2d8+4d6 + 8.
For my elemental add 8d8 + 8. And if it's Whelming, add 4d8 + 4 on a failed STR save, which with the hound nearby, it's gonna fail.
Total: 16d10 + 14d8 + 8d6 + 111. Average 262 dmg per round once it's all on....
With multiple spells with a 1 hour duration how can this work?
You cast magic circle with 1 hour, then conjure elemental with 1 hour, and then planar binding which has a casting time of one hour... The magic circle would end 1 round before conjure elemental, and conjure elemental would end 1 minute before you were done casting planar binding... I'm not even sure why you're using magic circle as you're already using a summoned creature, is not like it's hostile unless you lose concentration, and you don't cast planar binding in combat... so...
If you regularly find yourself in situations where you are up against creatures who cast spells or use magic (like many games) Dont worry about destruction when you can laugh at the poor enemies - Feast your eyes on paladin 5 circle of power. protect friends, prevent all magic damage (potentially) make a hard fight / series of fights in 10 minutes as simple as beating the pinata till it bursts.
If you want to be the most irritating player ever and chose armour of agathys at level 6, then taking fireshield and Find greater steed at 10th will grants you a 25 hp / 25 damage + fire damage when your hit bard, and horsey combo. Now bladeward, Now deliberately provoke attacks of opportunity. You take half physical damage, horsey takes half physical damage, you both have 25 temp hits and whoever hits you will regret it. when you get 9th level secrets and want to do this like an endboss - take invulnerability, (AoA 8th, (40 damage) FS, cant be hurt for 10 minutes - and the same for horsey, charge the kraken, prepare to laugh.
Arden, magic circle can be upcast, making it last 2 or more hours. You dont need it to cast conjure elemental then planar binding, but some have pointed out that the CE duration is exactly as long as the PB cast time that should start a round later. The queries about this have come back as 'it was intended you could bind the elemental' My work around is to hold your action to begin casting your Conjure elemental after your turn, (when the metronome ticks twice more) then when you finish casting, on your turn begin the binding giving you a nebulous 1 to 2 second cushion. Ta da game fix.
I've been planning on doing this with my paladin but he needs to wait until lvl 17 to get 5th lvl spells buuuut. Find Greater Steed + Destructive Wave.
Part of the text of Greater steed states that any self targeting spell may also be applied to your mount, weeeell Destructive Wave targets self so using it while flying around on your griffon gives you two Destructive Waves for the price of one, then just fly away to safety =)
I've been planning on doing this with my paladin but he needs to wait until lvl 17 to get 5th lvl spells buuuut. Find Greater Steed + Destructive Wave.
Part of the text of Greater steed states that any self targeting spell may also be applied to your mount, weeeell Destructive Wave targets self so using it while flying around on your griffon gives you two Destructive Waves for the price of one, then just fly away to safety =)
Those self spells which affect others, say mob in a certain radius or cone, they sadly don't apply to the self targetted spell feature of find steeders.
With multiple spells with a 1 hour duration how can this work?
You cast magic circle with 1 hour, then conjure elemental with 1 hour, and then planar binding which has a casting time of one hour... The magic circle would end 1 round before conjure elemental, and conjure elemental would end 1 minute before you were done casting planar binding... I'm not even sure why you're using magic circle as you're already using a summoned creature, is not like it's hostile unless you lose concentration, and you don't cast planar binding in combat... so...
Was originally gonig to use it with a summoned fiend, hence the magic circle. But yes, if it's an elemental, it'd wait while I do my thing, without needing magic circle I guess.... although it's a good rhing to have in case my concentration is broken during the process (my DM may throw random mobs at us....).
In terms of the timing of conjure elemental and planar binding, Jeremy Crawford says "s DM, I'd allow you to pair conj. elemental with planar binding if the latter starts when the monster appears."
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Sooooooooooooooo I play a Rock Gnome Bard of Lore in a campaign that's been going on for around a year and a half now and the party just hit level 10, and I want to make sure that my bard is filling a nice supporting caster role without being made redundant by the other party members.
My party currently consists of:
Human Paladin of Devotion
Half Elf Assassin Rogue
Vanilla Tiefling Conjuration Wizard
Goblin Monk of the Open Hand
Dark Elf Gunslinger Fighter
As a Lore Bard I'd previously taken Eldritch Blast and Fly for my level 6 extracurricular spells, and they both have gotten a lot of use. I have also decided to take Guardian of Faith as one of my 10th level magical secrets already due to lack of concentration required, the ability to strategically place it for offensive and defensive purposes, and the amazing amount of flavor in the description. As for the remaining spell, I've admittedly been a bit torn between deciding what could help my bard continue to be useful to the party.
As another magical secret I was debating between the following spells:
*Beacon of Hope (Aside from the paladin's lay on hands I'm the only character capable of performing magical healing, and I feel like this spell could help me get the most effect out of my spell slots used for healing. Also figuring the maximized healing would also apply to potions, the monk's wholeness of body, and the fighter's second wind... which makes it seem like a very attractive option for using those resources to their fullest potential.)
*Circle of Power (Get the feeling the defensive benefits of this would be amazing, especially if we all stay close to the paladin... also if party members stay close I'll be more likely to be able to use cure wounds in a pinch instead of needing to use healing word.)
*Counterspell (I'm aware jack of all trades allows bards to be the best dispellers/counterspellers, although the wizard also has counterspell and I'm worried about that redundancy.)
*Destructive Wave (I really like how it's flavored as a superthunderwave, but it also requires me to be closer to enemies, which could present other problems, especially since I move more slowly than everybody when not on a mount as a gnome.)*Steel Wind Strike (I usually suck at combat compared to my fellow party members, although this caught my eye when I noticed that the Fighter has a penchant for using a magic ring to teleport up into an enemy's face and wail on them super hard with a sword in one hand and a pistol in the other. They're both pretty buddy-buddy with eachother so I imagine that if my bard takes this it'd be like he's been getting inspiration from watching his teammates on how to get stronger. Plus the damage is pretty massive, it's especially handy around multiple foes, and provides you with a short range teleport... that puts you right into the enemy's reach... that has me ever so slightly worried.)*Telekinesis (I think this could be really cool for the environment/subduing enemies by lifting them off the ground. Although I am fully aware that it can only target one thing at a time... which is a bit of a bummer and the only real reason I haven't immediately plugged this spell in as my second.)
*Wall of Force/Wall of Stone (I get the feeling that barrier-spells will be very handy to have, and on the subject of these two I feel rather torn between their unique benefits... with force being completely indestructible so long as you can keep concentration, and stone being able to create permanent walls over time and other structures like crude bridges.)Any thoughts on the listed spells or other suggestions? I've been suffering from an extreme case of analysis-paralysis on this for a while.
I'd strongly suggest greater find steed,unless the paladin will feal you are stepping on his toes
I do understand the utility of Find Greater Steed, though the reason I hadn't included it in my list was because my bard has actually been using a saint bernard doggo as a mount since very early on in the campaign, and I plan on using the Awaken spell on him as soon as I can get my hands on that costly material component.
Counterspell and Telekinesis are two spells that are weaker on the list.
The Destructive Wave is dangerous since you need to be close to enemies.
Don't waste your magical secrets on getting Wall of Force/Wall of Stone. Instead I'd suggest getting plant growth which is a bard spell at 3rd level.
Steel Wind Strike I don't know much about but seeing as how you mentioned up close combat with it I'd say maybe not. Usually bards do more damage with their spells than their combat attacks.
In the end Beacon of Hope and Circle of Power seem like your best options. I don't know you're party nearly as well as you do so I'd say narrow your choices down to those two.
Your biggest considerations are probably going to be what are competing spells. Think back to how often you had different spell levels available - for example, you might blow all your 1st- and 3rd-level slots quickly but stack up 2nd-level slots that mostly get used to tune up 1st-level spells; in this case, you might want to pick up a useful spell like Mirror Image or Spiritual Weapon. You'll want to avoid concentration spells unless you find you're not often concentrating. Don't duplicate any options that your Bard list can handle. Also recommend keeping them lower-level where possible; as your level pushes double digits, 1st-level spells tend to be used less, but Shield can be great all day long; contrarily, taking a slick 5th-level spell seems great until you realize you can only cast it once per day and you have other spells you want to use that slot for.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Counterspell. It doesn't matter if wizard already has it, the character can only do it once a round with a reaction. So in a given round against multiple spellcasters, you having a more effective counterspell could be clutch if you haven't already used your reaction for cutting words or something.
After getting the chance to talk with the wizard I was able to come to a similar opinion regarding Wall of Force, Steel Wind Strike, an Destructive Wave. Steel Wind Strike and Destructive Wave would, more often than not, put my character in an extremely risky position, and I was also able to figure out that the wizard was already taking Wall of Force. Going to update the list at the top accordingly.
My spell trends combat-wise are as follows:
a) Using a multi-target buff on the party like Heroism (my go-to spell), Fly (if the terrain is causing movement problems), or Greater Invisibility (which is only single-target, but great for turning the rogue into pointy death incarnate).
b) Causing disjunction in enemy ranks with Confusion if my starting position keeps me from touching many of my party members at a time.
b) Spreading heals where needed through Healing word/Cure wounds.
c) Peppering away at enemies with Eldritch Blast/Vicious Mockery as the situation demands.
d) Creating alternative solutions to combats through use of Sleep, Suggestion, or Major Image.
e) Utilitarian use of dispel magic.
Outside of combat I've also been able to use Prestidigitation, Mending, Unearthly Chorus, Suggestion, Invisibility, and Fly to decent effect... pretty sure I can use Major Image for lots of things outside of combat too though I have yet to apply it in these ways, mainly looking forward to when I can cast it at 6th level without having to worry about concentration.
My dm and 2 of my party members were also recommending counterspell for similar reasons, although I'm unsure how specialized for an anti-caster approach I want to be since counterspell wouldn't have any function outside of combating spellcasters... then again the same would technically go for Circle of Power since the nifty party-bonuses only apply to magical effects... hrm...
Sorry, the way I worded Counterspell made it sound like I thought it was crap. What I meant to say is that it doesn't as much as the top two choices I mentioned in your role as a support/healer bard.
Well for my money Bigby’s Hand, Conjure Animals, and Spirit Guardians would all be excellent options. If you want healing, Healing Spirit would be a great option, excellent in and out of combat, though it does require concentration.
What did you wind up going with?
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
Flèche - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
Sterling - V. Human Bard 1 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
I am with the counterspell crowd,
That's not the case for Steel Wind Strike, unless the 30ft range is considered too risky.
Magic Circle and Conjure Animals at level 6.
Most DM's let you pick the animals, pick (giant possibly) constrictor snakes for the relatively free advantage to hits etc.
Find Greater Steed and Conjure Elemental at levle 10.
There are few things better than a flying griffon. Mounted you have great mobility, and when you close on the mob and need extra damage, dismount and it gets some good licks in.
Now, use a Reverse Magic circle, Conjure Elemental and Planar Binding to conjure a water elemental who'll fight for you also, without requiring concentration for 30/180/366 days before you need a new gem for a recast.
Use your concentration to cast Conjure Animals, or for extra creativity if you're a canny multiclasser with 2 level of warlock and 6 of Shadow Sorcerer, use a Shadow Hound and Hold Monster/Person to enable every hit that you, your water elemental and your griffon make as a critical on a hold that the mob in't going to get out of.
Hold Person/Monstre route:-
For me that'd be 16d10 + 40 + 48 if curse is free (EB+ and Quickened EB+).
For my Hound of ill Omen add 4d6 + 3.
For my Griffon add 2d8+4d6 + 8.
For my elemental add 8d8 + 8. And if it's Whelming, add 4d8 + 4 on a failed STR save, which with the hound nearby, it's gonna fail.
Total: 16d10 + 14d8 + 8d6 + 111. Average 262 dmg per round once it's all on....
I'm sure I'm overlooking something...
With multiple spells with a 1 hour duration how can this work?
You cast magic circle with 1 hour, then conjure elemental with 1 hour, and then planar binding which has a casting time of one hour... The magic circle would end 1 round before conjure elemental, and conjure elemental would end 1 minute before you were done casting planar binding... I'm not even sure why you're using magic circle as you're already using a summoned creature, is not like it's hostile unless you lose concentration, and you don't cast planar binding in combat... so...
If you regularly find yourself in situations where you are up against creatures who cast spells or use magic (like many games) Dont worry about destruction when you can laugh at the poor enemies - Feast your eyes on paladin 5 circle of power. protect friends, prevent all magic damage (potentially) make a hard fight / series of fights in 10 minutes as simple as beating the pinata till it bursts.
If you want to be the most irritating player ever and chose armour of agathys at level 6, then taking fireshield and Find greater steed at 10th will grants you a 25 hp / 25 damage + fire damage when your hit bard, and horsey combo. Now bladeward, Now deliberately provoke attacks of opportunity. You take half physical damage, horsey takes half physical damage, you both have 25 temp hits and whoever hits you will regret it. when you get 9th level secrets and want to do this like an endboss - take invulnerability, (AoA 8th, (40 damage) FS, cant be hurt for 10 minutes - and the same for horsey, charge the kraken, prepare to laugh.
Arden, magic circle can be upcast, making it last 2 or more hours. You dont need it to cast conjure elemental then planar binding, but some have pointed out that the CE duration is exactly as long as the PB cast time that should start a round later. The queries about this have come back as 'it was intended you could bind the elemental' My work around is to hold your action to begin casting your Conjure elemental after your turn, (when the metronome ticks twice more) then when you finish casting, on your turn begin the binding giving you a nebulous 1 to 2 second cushion. Ta da game fix.
I've been planning on doing this with my paladin but he needs to wait until lvl 17 to get 5th lvl spells buuuut. Find Greater Steed + Destructive Wave.
Part of the text of Greater steed states that any self targeting spell may also be applied to your mount, weeeell Destructive Wave targets self so using it while flying around on your griffon gives you two Destructive Waves for the price of one, then just fly away to safety =)
Those self spells which affect others, say mob in a certain radius or cone, they sadly don't apply to the self targetted spell feature of find steeders.
Was originally gonig to use it with a summoned fiend, hence the magic circle. But yes, if it's an elemental, it'd wait while I do my thing, without needing magic circle I guess.... although it's a good rhing to have in case my concentration is broken during the process (my DM may throw random mobs at us....).
In terms of the timing of conjure elemental and planar binding, Jeremy Crawford says "s DM, I'd allow you to pair conj. elemental with planar binding if the latter starts when the monster appears."