Basically, I look at it like this. If you compare Valor and Lore, Cutting Words and Combat Inspiration, Combat Inspiration is more versatile while Cutting Words' benefit is you can use it to defend yourself. Magical Secrets you would get anyways even as a non Lore bard, you just get it earlier. Whereas with Extra Attack, you can only get that otherwise from 5 levels of multiclassing. Then, Lore's capstone is honestly one of the worst capstones in the game.
I would say of the 5 that Whispers is the weakest overall, due to an overabundance of situational abilities.
Magical Secrets is probably one of the most powerful abilities of the bard class in general and Lore bards get to borrow spells from other classes at four various levels instead of three and, critically, they get to do it at level 6 for the first time instead of level 10. An exponentially higher number of groups reach level 6 than they do levels 10 or beyond, so most bard players don't even get to see the default Magical Secrets, but if they pick the College of Lore, they will much more likely get to cherry pick some spells from another class' list. and if they DO play to the higher levels, Magical Secrets just gets better and better, even giving you access to Wish, which is literally the most powerful spell in the game
See the thing about being able to pick spells from any class is that there are some very powerful spells that can be absolute game changers for play style. Consider that Counterspell is not on the bard spell list, but you can pick it up at level 6 if you're a Lore bard. You immediately become a better anti-caster than a wizard of the same level because you get to add half your proficiency to your ability check. Or you could take Spirit Guardians or Fireball and level hordes of creatures as well as any evoker. Haste or Fly offer huge tactical or utility advantages and can be picked up at level 6 as a Lore bard. Conjure Animals can be borderline overpowered because of action economy if you want to be a summoner bard, even Find Steed can be useful in that regards on a more permanent basis.
See the thing is, my current main character is a College of Swords Bard multiclass. I wanted to play a gish character that uses magic to enhance their swordplay, but after about 4th level in bard i realized one thing: bards are full casters. They have the same spell slot progression as wizards, even if their spells lean more toward support and utility rather than the raw power of the wizard list. I realized that the higher I leveled, the more and more my spells would outshine my Blade Flourishes. At 6th level I can hit an enemy an additional time! Yay! But at 5th level I gained access to an ability that can shut down every creature in a 30ft cube. It only gets more pronounced from there. The martial prowess of Swords and Valor bards doesn't really improve that much past 6th level, but at 9th level they can fricking raise the dead! Swords and Valor bards are half martial classes at best, which is why I had to multiclas out of bard, because I didn't actually want a full caster, that wasn't the concept I had in mind when I tried to build my duelist, I wanted minor magics that buffed my ability to duel, rather than some minor swords ability that I could use as a backup after casting some powerful spells.
Mechanically speaking Lore bards lean into the caster role and thus enhance what is the most powerful mechanical aspect of the bard class. It is possible to pick spells that are not as useful, of course. If your bard would rather Create Food and Water or Water Walk that's also fine, but I don't think one should downgrade the sheer game changing nature of being able to say .. Animate Dead.
I don't know what precise criteria you're using for your ratings, so I'm not going to contest them or anything, but I just wanted you to consider just how powerful spellcasting is, just how much of a spellcaster the bard is, and how dramatically it can impact play style to have access to the entire breadth of spells in the game.
Oh, I am aware. I'm probably just more biased since I almost never don't multiclass, and usually play more damage/melee oriented characters. You can utilize spells and still use something like blade flourish, especially if you consider something like multiclassing into sorcerer for quickened spell. Quickened anything, and then two melee attacks.
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Oh, I am aware. I'm probably just more biased since I almost never don't multiclass, and usually play more damage/melee oriented characters. You can utilize spells and still use something like blade flourish, especially if you consider something like multiclassing into sorcerer for quickened spell. Quickened anything, and then two melee attacks.
Ok, but can you see that this might not be the best mindset with which to analyze a full casting class? I mean sure, you could have a section rating the different multiclass options, but on the whole if you're analyzing the bard, shouldn't you analyze it as a class all on its own?
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Yes, but it's also so easy to multiclass yourself in a bad way. It's actually not that easy, especially for a beginner to multiclass well, and in those instance I would say that it is better to just stick to one class. I think you're only thinking of people who know how to optimize.
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Magical secrets is too flexible and great to not be viewed as a top option for the class. Choose any area you are lacking and grab a spell to fill that void. Need a ranged damage spell
I wouldn't say you'd ever need a smite spell, and you have a few ranged damage spells already (as well as you might not really need them as a support character). Shield might be worth it, but I wouldn't say slightly earlier Magical Secrets is all that much stronger than Extra Attack.
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Lordshadowthorn. It sounds like you are making a guide how to multiclass bard into the best possible utility melee fighter possible (with spells of course).
What we’re trying to tell you is that the bard class itself plays more of a full caster, utility, support, fill in the blank class. That is why lore bard is so good and why magical secrets is incredible.
I'm not. I understand just how good those combinations can be, but I also understand the power of full casters. I rate them evenly because they accomplish different goals, and I personally prefer Glamour over Lore in that archetype, especially since Lore has such a godawful capstone. I'm not saying Magical Secrets is bad, it's very good. It just isn't enough to make Lore bards that much better than the other subclasses, especially since normal bards get Magical Secrets anyways (albeit delayed).
I didn't mean to come across as saying bard should only be played as a multiclassed melee utility fighter. It is a very good option for it (The best? Probably not.), but fills a different role than most bards. I'm rating mostly on the individual power of each subclass ability and what it offers to its particular archetype. If extra attack was in Lore or Glamour bard I'd rate it much lower, as those subclasses have no need of it.
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Alright but things I do want to point out with the lore bard:
cutting words: excellent die manipulation. It won’t always come into use but when it does it’s handy. You may be able to prevent the death of a fellow player, protect yourself, or pass a crucial contested check etc. Not only that, but it also uses a reaction instead of a bonus action which is a huge deal for the bard’s action economy and making it that much better.
magical secrets at lvl 6 vs lvl 10: your character becomes the best counterspell caster in the game for 4 whole levels (20% of a campaign) before the other bards finally gain access. Level 6 is a pretty handy level to gain counterspell
Yes the capstone feature really sucks but how often do campaigns play after level 20 and if they do is that enough to dissuade the lore bard from ranking higher than any of the subclasses?
Alright but things I do want to point out with the lore bard:
cutting words: excellent die manipulation. It won’t always come into use but when it does it’s handy. You may be able to prevent the death of a fellow player, protect yourself, or pass a crucial contested check etc. Not only that, but it also uses a reaction instead of a bonus action which is a huge deal for the bard’s action economy and making it that much better.
magical secrets at lvl 6 vs lvl 10: your character becomes the best counterspell caster in the game for 4 whole levels (20% of a campaign) before the other bards finally gain access. Level 6 is a pretty handy level to gain counterspell
Yes the capstone feature really sucks but how often do campaigns play after level 20 and if they do is that enough to dissuade the lore bard from ranking higher than any of the subclasses?
Keep forgetting to reply to this, but there's a few things here.
First off, wizards are still better counterspell casters if they have proficiency in Arcana (which they should). They'll have a better Int bonus and a full proficiency bonus instead of half (Jack of All Trades only grants the half bonus to skills you don't have proficiency in), and they can get it at least one level earlier. Bards are the second best, at least lore bards.
And by capstone feature I mean the Lore bard capstone, which is at level 14 (not 20).
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First off, wizards are still better counterspell casters if they have proficiency in Arcana (which they should). They'll have a better Int bonus and a full proficiency bonus instead of half (Jack of All Trades only grants the half bonus to skills you don't have proficiency in), and they can get it at least one level earlier. Bards are the second best, at least lore bards.
And by capstone feature I mean the Lore bard capstone, which is at level 14 (not 20).
Counterspell uses a straight up Ability check, not an Arcana check, and it also uses your casting ability, not always Intelligence. So the wizard will be using their Intelligence plus nothing while the bard will be using their Charisma plus half proficiency. At level 6, a Lore bard can very easily be a better counterspeller than a wizard, until level 10 when the Abjuration wizard starts adding their full proficiency to that roll. Even then, the bard has access to Enhance Ability which can give then advantage on that roll, which wizards do not have access to, so it's still going to be pretty even. Then at level 14 it goes back to the bard because now they can add an Bardic Inspiration die, which is a d10 at this point, to the roll as well. So a wizard is a better anti-magic caster at level 5, lore bard is better from levels 6 to 9, abjuration wizards are slightly better from 10 to 13, then lore bards are better from 14 to 20.
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Oh, I forgot, once they hit level 15, bards get access to Glibness. When they have that active, they can auto succeed at countering any level spell with only a 3rd level Counterspell.
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Bards can be better counterspellers than any other class in the game and lore bards can start doing it at levels where most people will actually get to play.
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First off, wizards are still better counterspell casters if they have proficiency in Arcana (which they should). They'll have a better Int bonus and a full proficiency bonus instead of half (Jack of All Trades only grants the half bonus to skills you don't have proficiency in), and they can get it at least one level earlier. Bards are the second best, at least lore bards.
And by capstone feature I mean the Lore bard capstone, which is at level 14 (not 20).
Counterspell uses a straight up Ability check, not an Arcana check, and it also uses your casting ability, not always Intelligence. So the wizard will be using their Intelligence plus nothing while the bard will be using their Charisma plus half proficiency. At level 6, a Lore bard can very easily be a better counterspeller than a wizard, until level 10 when the Abjuration wizard starts adding their full proficiency to that roll. Even then, the bard has access to Enhance Ability which can give then advantage on that roll, which wizards do not have access to, so it's still going to be pretty even. Then at level 14 it goes back to the bard because now they can add an Bardic Inspiration die, which is a d10 at this point, to the roll as well. So a wizard is a better anti-magic caster at level 5, lore bard is better from levels 6 to 9, abjuration wizards are slightly better from 10 to 13, then lore bards are better from 14 to 20.
Completely my bad. Not sure why I thought it was an Arcana check, that's what I get for doing things from memory.
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Ah, my bad. I had the general bard capstone and the subclass capstone mixed. Yeah, peerless skill also isn’t very good. The only thing going for the lore bard is it’s focus to being good at skill checks, a full caster (utility, control, and decent damage all in one package) through really good magical secrets, as well as cutting words which enables excellent dice manipulation through cost of a reaction (only portent really beats this out).
Also what’s you’re opinion on being more helpful, cutting words or lucky? Maybe I should make a poll in the bard forum for this...
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Magical Secrets is probably one of the most powerful abilities of the bard class in general and Lore bards get to borrow spells from other classes at four various levels instead of three and, critically, they get to do it at level 6 for the first time instead of level 10. An exponentially higher number of groups reach level 6 than they do levels 10 or beyond, so most bard players don't even get to see the default Magical Secrets, but if they pick the College of Lore, they will much more likely get to cherry pick some spells from another class' list. and if they DO play to the higher levels, Magical Secrets just gets better and better, even giving you access to Wish, which is literally the most powerful spell in the game
See the thing about being able to pick spells from any class is that there are some very powerful spells that can be absolute game changers for play style. Consider that Counterspell is not on the bard spell list, but you can pick it up at level 6 if you're a Lore bard. You immediately become a better anti-caster than a wizard of the same level because you get to add half your proficiency to your ability check. Or you could take Spirit Guardians or Fireball and level hordes of creatures as well as any evoker. Haste or Fly offer huge tactical or utility advantages and can be picked up at level 6 as a Lore bard. Conjure Animals can be borderline overpowered because of action economy if you want to be a summoner bard, even Find Steed can be useful in that regards on a more permanent basis.
See the thing is, my current main character is a College of Swords Bard multiclass. I wanted to play a gish character that uses magic to enhance their swordplay, but after about 4th level in bard i realized one thing: bards are full casters. They have the same spell slot progression as wizards, even if their spells lean more toward support and utility rather than the raw power of the wizard list. I realized that the higher I leveled, the more and more my spells would outshine my Blade Flourishes. At 6th level I can hit an enemy an additional time! Yay! But at 5th level I gained access to an ability that can shut down every creature in a 30ft cube. It only gets more pronounced from there. The martial prowess of Swords and Valor bards doesn't really improve that much past 6th level, but at 9th level they can fricking raise the dead! Swords and Valor bards are half martial classes at best, which is why I had to multiclas out of bard, because I didn't actually want a full caster, that wasn't the concept I had in mind when I tried to build my duelist, I wanted minor magics that buffed my ability to duel, rather than some minor swords ability that I could use as a backup after casting some powerful spells.
Mechanically speaking Lore bards lean into the caster role and thus enhance what is the most powerful mechanical aspect of the bard class. It is possible to pick spells that are not as useful, of course. If your bard would rather Create Food and Water or Water Walk that's also fine, but I don't think one should downgrade the sheer game changing nature of being able to say .. Animate Dead.
I don't know what precise criteria you're using for your ratings, so I'm not going to contest them or anything, but I just wanted you to consider just how powerful spellcasting is, just how much of a spellcaster the bard is, and how dramatically it can impact play style to have access to the entire breadth of spells in the game.
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Oh, I am aware. I'm probably just more biased since I almost never don't multiclass, and usually play more damage/melee oriented characters. You can utilize spells and still use something like blade flourish, especially if you consider something like multiclassing into sorcerer for quickened spell. Quickened anything, and then two melee attacks.
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Ok, but can you see that this might not be the best mindset with which to analyze a full casting class? I mean sure, you could have a section rating the different multiclass options, but on the whole if you're analyzing the bard, shouldn't you analyze it as a class all on its own?
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And I try to, but it's almost always a good idea to multiclass.
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... is it though?
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Yes. In almost every circumstance, at least at higher levels. Even if it’s just a one level dip into fighter or warlock or something.
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That’s true, Lore Bard does well dipping 2 levels into warlock
Yeah, I'm not saying you always have to go 50/50. It's usually better not to, actually.
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Yes, but it's also so easy to multiclass yourself in a bad way. It's actually not that easy, especially for a beginner to multiclass well, and in those instance I would say that it is better to just stick to one class. I think you're only thinking of people who know how to optimize.
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Magical secrets is too flexible and great to not be viewed as a top option for the class. Choose any area you are lacking and grab a spell to fill that void. Need a ranged damage spell
Need the shield spell
Need to smite
Too many good options1
I wouldn't say you'd ever need a smite spell, and you have a few ranged damage spells already (as well as you might not really need them as a support character). Shield might be worth it, but I wouldn't say slightly earlier Magical Secrets is all that much stronger than Extra Attack.
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Lordshadowthorn. It sounds like you are making a guide how to multiclass bard into the best possible utility melee fighter possible (with spells of course).
What we’re trying to tell you is that the bard class itself plays more of a full caster, utility, support, fill in the blank class. That is why lore bard is so good and why magical secrets is incredible.
I'm not. I understand just how good those combinations can be, but I also understand the power of full casters. I rate them evenly because they accomplish different goals, and I personally prefer Glamour over Lore in that archetype, especially since Lore has such a godawful capstone. I'm not saying Magical Secrets is bad, it's very good. It just isn't enough to make Lore bards that much better than the other subclasses, especially since normal bards get Magical Secrets anyways (albeit delayed).
I didn't mean to come across as saying bard should only be played as a multiclassed melee utility fighter. It is a very good option for it (The best? Probably not.), but fills a different role than most bards. I'm rating mostly on the individual power of each subclass ability and what it offers to its particular archetype. If extra attack was in Lore or Glamour bard I'd rate it much lower, as those subclasses have no need of it.
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Alright but things I do want to point out with the lore bard:
cutting words: excellent die manipulation. It won’t always come into use but when it does it’s handy. You may be able to prevent the death of a fellow player, protect yourself, or pass a crucial contested check etc. Not only that, but it also uses a reaction instead of a bonus action which is a huge deal for the bard’s action economy and making it that much better.
magical secrets at lvl 6 vs lvl 10: your character becomes the best counterspell caster in the game for 4 whole levels (20% of a campaign) before the other bards finally gain access. Level 6 is a pretty handy level to gain counterspell
Yes the capstone feature really sucks but how often do campaigns play after level 20 and if they do is that enough to dissuade the lore bard from ranking higher than any of the subclasses?
Keep forgetting to reply to this, but there's a few things here.
First off, wizards are still better counterspell casters if they have proficiency in Arcana (which they should). They'll have a better Int bonus and a full proficiency bonus instead of half (Jack of All Trades only grants the half bonus to skills you don't have proficiency in), and they can get it at least one level earlier. Bards are the second best, at least lore bards.
And by capstone feature I mean the Lore bard capstone, which is at level 14 (not 20).
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Counterspell uses a straight up Ability check, not an Arcana check, and it also uses your casting ability, not always Intelligence. So the wizard will be using their Intelligence plus nothing while the bard will be using their Charisma plus half proficiency. At level 6, a Lore bard can very easily be a better counterspeller than a wizard, until level 10 when the Abjuration wizard starts adding their full proficiency to that roll. Even then, the bard has access to Enhance Ability which can give then advantage on that roll, which wizards do not have access to, so it's still going to be pretty even. Then at level 14 it goes back to the bard because now they can add an Bardic Inspiration die, which is a d10 at this point, to the roll as well. So a wizard is a better anti-magic caster at level 5, lore bard is better from levels 6 to 9, abjuration wizards are slightly better from 10 to 13, then lore bards are better from 14 to 20.
Canto alla vita
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I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
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Oh, I forgot, once they hit level 15, bards get access to Glibness. When they have that active, they can auto succeed at countering any level spell with only a 3rd level Counterspell.
Canto alla vita
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Bards can be better counterspellers than any other class in the game and lore bards can start doing it at levels where most people will actually get to play.
Canto alla vita
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To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Completely my bad. Not sure why I thought it was an Arcana check, that's what I get for doing things from memory.
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Ah, my bad. I had the general bard capstone and the subclass capstone mixed. Yeah, peerless skill also isn’t very good. The only thing going for the lore bard is it’s focus to being good at skill checks, a full caster (utility, control, and decent damage all in one package) through really good magical secrets, as well as cutting words which enables excellent dice manipulation through cost of a reaction (only portent really beats this out).
Also what’s you’re opinion on being more helpful, cutting words or lucky? Maybe I should make a poll in the bard forum for this...