The overreactions to this ability are just crazy. People talk about how great it is then conjure up super easy fights, assume the monsters behave in a stupid way and spread damage out, and point out that this "breaks" the game. No it doesn't. :\
They're sane, and measured. Some even backed by numbers instead of hyperbole.
People talk about how great it is then conjure up super easy fights,
The ability varies between useful -to- broken OP depending on the encounter. You find it odd that when discussing how broken it is people discuss the situations it goes well and truly off the rails? Name one situation it isn't powerful in.
assume the monsters behave in a stupid way and spread damage out,
It doesn't require this behavior to be OP, but it does enter into ludicrous levels of OP is this behavior does present itself.
and point out that this "breaks" the game. No it doesn't. :\
It does. Most DMs who have some experience under their belt can and will fix the game, adjusting encounters, behaviors, and enemy composition to accommodate for such a powerfully OP ability. but the very fact they had to adjust their game in this way is definitive proof the ability is broken.
People talk about how great it is then conjure up super easy fights,
The ability varies between useful -to- broken OP depending on the encounter. You find it odd that when discussing how broken it is people discuss the situations it goes well and truly off the rails? Name one situation it isn't powerful in. ...
Yep, Twilight Sanctuary is directly useful in all the many situations where the threat is to the health of the party. On top of that, it's indirectly useful in other situations because the cleric will have less need to burn through spell slots to dole out healing and, as the cleric can have increased general confidence in the party health, s/he will be better able to take spell options other than, say, aid, cure wounds, prayer of healing etc.
The ability might become bonkers in the perhaps less likely event that your party has both a cleric and a druid at 7th level or in the perhaps more economical event that you have a cleric2/druid7. A 7th level druid can cast conjure animals to summon 8 wolves or giant bats (or equivalent DM chosen beasts from CR1/4) and the twilight cleric can give the temp HP to all of them. HP of CR 1/4 beasts are: Axe Beak 19, Boar 11, Constrictor Snake 13, Draft Horse 19, Elk 13, Giant Badger 13, Giant Bat 22 (wow), Giant Centipede 4 (but with poison attack), ... The use of the cleric ability and the casting of the druid spell would just need to coincide and they'd all get a buff of 1d6+7 hp from a 7th level twilight cleric. Less powerfully, a 3rd level Wizard/Warlock could cast flock of familiars which, if the bonus action can work with the three familiars consecutively, could give reasonably secure advantage to three melee combatants. Advantage can equate to +5 on a roll. That's typically better than combat advantage of bless and, if the familiars survive, it lasts for an hour.
and point out that this "breaks" the game. No it doesn't. :\
It does. Most DMs who have some experience under their belt can and will fix the game, adjusting encounters, behaviors, and enemy composition to accommodate for such a powerfully OP ability. but the very fact they had to adjust their game in this way is definitive proof the ability is broken.
I understand what you mean. And partly you're right. But i don't think this is a proof that the ability is broken. I think the ability works the way it should, and that is one of the reasons why TC is tremendously competent. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. This force the DM to think out of the box, and it forces him to change his usual tactics. In the end, that makes the game more varied and fun, as players will have to adapt to new challenges as well. I don't see the bad side of it anywhere. What breaks the game are things that don't make sense, players who play their characters without following their class rules (like a cleric who don't care about his god), imposible builds that are narratively ridiculous, rules that in RAW don't work the way they should, etc .
TC don't break anything, It's just a subclass that works very well. And that's good for the game.
TC don't break anything, It's just a subclass that works very well. And that's good for the game.
I strongly disagree. From the perspective of game balance, player experience, and DM experience, I feel that TC is, in fact, really bad for the game.
This subclass is working so very well, it makes (almost?) all other subclasses of the cleric pale in comparison. In addition, TC also steps on the toe of feats, spells, and subclass traits. Heck, every game feature offering temporary hit points is outclassed and obsoleted when you compare it directly; and there are quite a lot. Why play a glamour bard (their special inspiration)? Glory paladin (their most powerful channel divinity)? Artillerist (their most powerful turret)? Why take Inspiring Leader feat? Why ever use False Life or Heroism? These are all strictly inferior when compared to TC. A "clear winner" takes choices away from the players. That's bad.
As a player, I might enjoy being neigh invulnerable when running with a twilight cleric, right to the point where the adventure becomes boring. I had made this experience in person by now: Curse of Strahd is now mildly challenging instead of terrifyingly lethal. A bunch of vampire spawns had difficulties to penetrate the TC barrier of a level 4 cleric, which turned the famous "TPK" encounter into a fairly manageable fight. Felt a bit like cheating. If you do a CR calculation for the players' party, you will find that it raises it by 2 levels. That's bad.
As a DM, it makes it harder to design challenging encounters. A good DM has ways to challenge the group anyway? Yes, I know how to send in wave after wave of enemies to make players spend all their resources. I know how to alpha-strike-focus-fire player characters. I know how to turn every second enemy into a spellcaster that can attempt to control the cleric. I know how to upgrade monsters to absurd levels in order to create a worthy challenge. And these things have the potential make fights tedius, antagonize players, or turn a theater of the mind into a min-maxed combat simulation. D&D 5 is already considered "too easy". There are already subclasses (and multi-class combination) and spells and feats that work "very well", in fact too well. Why add an even more powerful features? How does this make the game better?
That said, I like the Twilight cleric from the flavor perspective. But mechanically, TC (and the other traits as well, just not as badly) are too powerful.
Maybe try it out and see for yourself.
I have had TC at my table as a DM and have had no problem posing interesting challenges to my players. Nothing has been broken.
To your question about why to play other things while the twilight cleric exists, my answer is very simple: Because you want to play it, because you want to play that specific role. I understand that we have different ways of playing and understanding this game. That's fine, but understand that then the problem is not in the subclass design. The subclass is very well designed, and it does what it's supposed to do. It perfectly fulfills its role.
To finish, I have never understood that something unbalanced the game. Do you really think at this point that D&D intends to be balanced? It only takes a look at the design of the races to see that this is not the case. And nothing happens, the game is still fun. The balance is not important, the important thing is that the subclasses fulfill their role well. Something, by the way, that they don't always get. The TC does it, and then the complaints come. One man's meat is another man's poison, i suppose.
TC don't break anything, It's just a subclass that works very well. And that's good for the game.
I strongly disagree. From the perspective of game balance, player experience, and DM experience, I feel that TC is, in fact, really bad for the game.
This subclass is working so very well, it makes (almost?) all other subclasses of the cleric pale in comparison. In addition, TC also steps on the toe of feats, spells, and subclass traits. Heck, every game feature offering temporary hit points is outclassed and obsoleted when you compare it directly; and there are quite a lot. Why play a glamour bard (their special inspiration)? Glory paladin (their most powerful channel divinity)? Artillerist (their most powerful turret)? Why take Inspiring Leader feat? Why ever use False Life or Heroism? These are all strictly inferior when compared to TC. A "clear winner" takes choices away from the players. That's bad.
As a player, I might enjoy being neigh invulnerable when running with a twilight cleric, right to the point where the adventure becomes boring. I had made this experience in person by now: Curse of Strahd is now mildly challenging instead of terrifyingly lethal. A bunch of vampire spawns had difficulties to penetrate the TC barrier of a level 4 cleric, which turned the famous "TPK" encounter into a fairly manageable fight. Felt a bit like cheating. If you do a CR calculation for the players' party, you will find that it raises it by 2 levels. That's bad.
As a DM, it makes it harder to design challenging encounters. A good DM has ways to challenge the group anyway? Yes, I know how to send in wave after wave of enemies to make players spend all their resources. I know how to alpha-strike-focus-fire player characters. I know how to turn every second enemy into a spellcaster that can attempt to control the cleric. I know how to upgrade monsters to absurd levels in order to create a worthy challenge. And these things have the potential make fights tedius, antagonize players, or turn a theater of the mind into a min-maxed combat simulation. D&D 5 is already considered "too easy". There are already subclasses (and multi-class combination) and spells and feats that work "very well", in fact too well. Why add an even more powerful features? How does this make the game better?
That said, I like the Twilight cleric from the flavor perspective. But mechanically, TC (and the other traits as well, just not as badly) are too powerful.
Maybe try it out and see for yourself.
I have had TC at my table as a DM and have had no problem posing interesting challenges to my players. Nothing has been broken.
To your question about why to play other things while the twilight cleric exists, my answer is very simple: Because you want to play it, because you want to play that specific role. I understand that we have different ways of playing and understanding this game. That's fine, but understand that then the problem is not in the subclass design. The subclass is very well designed, and it does what it's supposed to do. It perfectly fulfills its role.
To finish, I have never understood that something unbalanced the game. Do you really think at this point that D&D intends to be balanced? It only takes a look at the design of the races to see that this is not the case. And nothing happens, the game is still fun. The balance is not important, the important thing is that the subclasses fulfill their role well. Something, by the way, that they don't always get. The TC does it, and then the complaints come. One man's meat is another man's poison, i suppose.
Since WotC responded to criticisms or the PHb's Beast Master Ranger and brought out Tasha's modifications of Beast Master Companions, I think it's possible that, while they may have some thoughts on balance in the game, they're just generally pretty bad at it.
I disagree that people want to play it because they want to play that specific role. In some cases, this may be the case but more often I suspect it's because it's for the more general role of a more effective character. I prefer the role of the character with 300 ft of darkvision over the role of the character without darkvision. I prefer the role of the cleric that can Channel Divinity to generate a powerful sphere of healing. This has little to do with roleplaying, say, getting excited about a fall of twilight but about gaining specific and powerfully rated character abilities.
I agree that Twilight Clerics fulfil their role well. Many would say that Twilight clerics do so disproportionately well while other subclasses may do so disproportionately poorly.
Yes, an unbalanced game can be fun, but so can a balanced game, and each DM can decide on their personal response and views in regard to the current situation.
I don't think I am that atypical but the majorty of thre people I know that play the game like powerful characters. This varies from the pure powergamer looking for obscure feature combinations to players who when looking through class and sub class features want something that is both interesting and effective. When a sub class is weak (e.g. beastmaster ranger pre Tasha's) few few people played it although it was the classically popular character with a pet.
Conversely if a subclass is much stronger than others most player's will gravitate to it. I remember seeing a post asking for advice for magic items for a druid and most of the replies assumed the player would be in wild shape during combat which I take ot mean they assumed there were circle of the moon.
I think WotC do try to balance classes and subclasses but recognise it is extremely complex and impossible to get perfect parity. Beast master was buffed in Tasha's to make it more viable. Stars and Spores provide alternative druid subclasses that are roughly the same effectiveness as moon.
With Twilight and indeed peace cleric I think they made a mistake, pre Tasha's there were a lot of cleric subclasses available to the player who considered power as a signifcant factor in deciding character builds since Tasha's nearly everyone who goes cleric goes Twilight. A lot of the remainder go peace (peace domain is insane for a dip, When my level 19 monk hit 20 peace domain gave him the ability to give 7 characters a 1d4 to saving throws ability checks and attacks for 10 minutes 7 times a day (enough to be virtually permanent),and it stacks with bless / guidance (which was generally his best use for spell slots).
After a recent session one of the other players advised me to get my wizard "Rime's binding ice" as a second level spell as it does the same damage as shatter and the equivalent de-buffing effect as web but not needing concentration. Nothing about whether it would fit my character concept, just if it flat out better than the alternatives (and to be honest while I don't have Fizban's yet I will probably buy at least the spell)
Ok, I think there is a misunderstanding here. Maybe it is because of my limited command of English (I'm not a native speaker).
Anyway, I am going to clarify some points of my argument. I am not saying that there are not people who want to play TC because it is good, but when asked: why would someone play something else (glamor bard, Glory paladin, Artillerist, and the other examples)? My answer is self-evident. Because they don't want to play a TC, they want to play something else. If someone wants to play TC because it seems very powerful, that's fine with me. Let everyone play the character they want. I don't see anything bad in it.. The game offers enough variety to suit different tastes.
In second place, the Beast Master example gives me the opportunity to explain something else that has not yet been clear. The beast master was poorly designed, but not because it was not balanced but because it did not fulfill its role. He was not doing well what he was supposed to do, and that is a problem. If behind the redesign there is a will to balance, I do not know. I am not in the head of the designers. But of course it now fulfills its function much better, without being the wet dream of a power gamer. I mean, they fixed it. Now works, and does the job. But I don't think it's a power gamer's first choice. Then the problem, at least for me, was not the balance, but a design that prevented playing it as it was supposed to be played.
And finally, I have no data. But in my games I still see other clerics who are not of twilight or peace. For example, I am playing one in which there is one of life. And in another that I am DM, I have a player with one of the forge. I suppose it will depend on the table, but my impression is that other cleric subclasses are played without problem. And they are good subclasses too. I think that here it's being a little bit of exagerated.
In second place, the Beast Master example gives me the opportunity to explain something else that has not yet been clear. The beast master was poorly designed, but not because it was not balanced but because it did not fulfill its role. He was not doing well what he was supposed to do, and that is a problem. If behind the redesign there is a will to balance, I do not know. I am not in the head of the designers. But of course it now fulfills its function much better, without being the wet dream of a power gamer. I mean, they fixed it. Now works, and does the job. But I don't think it's a power gamer's first choice. Then the problem, at least for me, was not the balance, but a design that prevented playing it as it was supposed to be played.
This is sorta the issue with TC but in reverse. It does what it does so well, that it is the very best at it, and it does it so effortlessly, that it also gets to do someone else's job on top of being the best at its own job.
A Twilight cleric isn't just providing unparalleled THP protection, condition removals, utility etc. It is also entirely free to use its spellcasting and other abilities offensively. Because why not? THP is pre-healing people, and TS doesn't require any involvement after you start it up, you have a Action and Bonus action to use every round still, so start nuking. Toss guiding bolts, throw out spiritual weapons, summon the spirit guardians and wade into the thick of it, out dps other players they'll love you for it.
Why do 1 character's job when you can do 2? That's the twilight cleric.
In second place, the Beast Master example gives me the opportunity to explain something else that has not yet been clear. The beast master was poorly designed, but not because it was not balanced but because it did not fulfill its role. He was not doing well what he was supposed to do, and that is a problem. If behind the redesign there is a will to balance, I do not know. I am not in the head of the designers. But of course it now fulfills its function much better, without being the wet dream of a power gamer. I mean, they fixed it. Now works, and does the job. But I don't think it's a power gamer's first choice. Then the problem, at least for me, was not the balance, but a design that prevented playing it as it was supposed to be played.
This is sorta the issue with TC but in reverse. It does what it does so well, that it is the very best at it, and it does it so effortlessly, that it also gets to do someone else's job on top of being the best at its own job.
A Twilight cleric isn't just providing unparalleled THP protection, condition removals, utility etc. It is also entirely free to use its spellcasting and other abilities offensively. Because why not? THP is pre-healing people, and TS doesn't require any involvement after you start it up, you have a Action and Bonus action to use every round still, so start nuking. Toss guiding bolts, throw out spiritual weapons, summon the spirit guardians and wade into the thick of it, out dps other players they'll love you for it.
Why do 1 character's job when you can do 2? That's the twilight cleric.
For me that's not a problem. A good character can have, and maybe must have, more than one role. For example, the Genius Warlock can be an excelent blaster and infiltrator. Thats good and fun. Now, my job as DM is to think interesting challenges for this character (and the rest of the party). Make him shine, but also take him out of his comfort zone. And, in the end, tell a good story with that group.
But anyway, that's what I think. That the TC doesn't break anything, it's a great subclass design. He does what he has to do very well, and is a top tier support. And hopefully more well-designed subclasses will come out. I don't want to see subclasses that don't work.
In second place, the Beast Master example gives me the opportunity to explain something else that has not yet been clear. The beast master was poorly designed, but not because it was not balanced but because it did not fulfill its role. He was not doing well what he was supposed to do, and that is a problem. If behind the redesign there is a will to balance, I do not know. I am not in the head of the designers. But of course it now fulfills its function much better, without being the wet dream of a power gamer. I mean, they fixed it. Now works, and does the job. But I don't think it's a power gamer's first choice. Then the problem, at least for me, was not the balance, but a design that prevented playing it as it was supposed to be played.
This is sorta the issue with TC but in reverse. It does what it does so well, that it is the very best at it, and it does it so effortlessly, that it also gets to do someone else's job on top of being the best at its own job.
A Twilight cleric isn't just providing unparalleled THP protection, condition removals, utility etc. It is also entirely free to use its spellcasting and other abilities offensively. Because why not? THP is pre-healing people, and TS doesn't require any involvement after you start it up, you have a Action and Bonus action to use every round still, so start nuking. Toss guiding bolts, throw out spiritual weapons, summon the spirit guardians and wade into the thick of it, out dps other players they'll love you for it.
Why do 1 character's job when you can do 2? That's the twilight cleric.
This is the point that really gets it for me....
It's an ability that requires no concentration and no action economy so you can do all sorts of extra stuff with your concentration and action.
You can top off people who get solo'd including yourself....
You can just Cure Wounds yourself if the DM wants to target you or one of several concentration based defensive spells that the cleric gets.
You can even just run in and Dodge as an action and keep Spirit Guardians up to inflict a good deal of guaranteed damage.
You just took something that was already on the powerful side (base cleric) and gave it something that it didn't need to be useful.
One of the biggest issues with twilight sanctuary is temporary HP don't stack so characters with other sources of temporary HP suddenly feel underwelming.
The player with a vhuman charisma caster who took inspiring leader as a feat suddenly finds a twilight cleric is in the group and his feat is almost useless
The player starting as druid and planning to go shepherd with one of the biggest draws being the bear totem who thinks they really need ot take another subclass at level 2
The sorcerer who took false life as one of his spells and immediately plans to drop it when he levels up.
.....
Because twilight sanctuary is so much better than any other source of temporary hit points and it can give them to the whole party any other character who has a feature that provides temporary hit points finds them completly useless when TS is active (and in many campaigns TS can be up for nearly every combat at least from level 6), this makes the game less fun for those players or, at best, forces them to change their character once they find in session 0 that there is a twilight cleric in the group.
I'd imagine that War Domain Clerics, in particular, could have a real hatred for and envy of Twilight Domain Clerics. If it came to war, they just can't compete.
Heroes Feast is a comparable 6th lev spell for a Cler/Dru 11. It gives twelve creatures immunity to poison and being frightened, advantage on Wisdom saving throws 2d10 (11) temp hit points for 24 hours (but requires 1,000 gp materials).
With Twilight Sanctuary, an 11th lev cleric on a horse can either give 1d6+11 THP to 10 lots of creatures within a 30 ft radius or remove charmed or frightened condition (as of 6th lev they can do it twice per rest and they can do it for free). Even if you're not moving, you can just shout, say, 'sanctuary' and your THP needing allies can try to move close.
War domain clerics get a couple of +10s to hit and do an extra d8 damage on a hit each round. They're more battle clerics. Twilight Clerics would be far better in war.
I'd imagine that War Domain Clerics, in particular, could have a real hatred for and envy of Twilight Domain Clerics. If it came to war, they just can't compete.
Heroes Feast is a comparable 6th lev spell for a Cler/Dru 11. It gives twelve creatures immunity to poison and being frightened, advantage on Wisdom saving throws 2d10 (11) temp hit points for 24 hours (but requires 1,000 gp materials).
With Twilight Sanctuary, an 11th lev cleric on a horse can either give 1d6+11 THP to 10 lots of creatures within a 30 ft radius or remove charmed or frightened condition (as of 6th lev they can do it twice per rest and they can do it for free). Even if you're not moving, you can just shout, say, 'sanctuary' and your THP needing allies can try to move close.
War domain clerics get a couple of +10s to hit and do an extra d8 damage on a hit each round. They're more battle clerics. Twilight Clerics would be far better in war.
Heroes Feast actually increases hit point maximum so it stacks with temporary hit points from twilight sanctuary (or anything else)
I'd imagine that War Domain Clerics, in particular, could have a real hatred for and envy of Twilight Domain Clerics. If it came to war, they just can't compete.
Heroes Feast is a comparable 6th lev spell for a Cler/Dru 11. It gives twelve creatures immunity to poison and being frightened, advantage on Wisdom saving throws 2d10 (11) temp hit points for 24 hours (but requires 1,000 gp materials).
With Twilight Sanctuary, an 11th lev cleric on a horse can either give 1d6+11 THP to 10 lots of creatures within a 30 ft radius or remove charmed or frightened condition (as of 6th lev they can do it twice per rest and they can do it for free). Even if you're not moving, you can just shout, say, 'sanctuary' and your THP needing allies can try to move close.
War domain clerics get a couple of +10s to hit and do an extra d8 damage on a hit each round. They're more battle clerics. Twilight Clerics would be far better in war.
Heroes Feast actually increases hit point maximum so it stacks with temporary hit points from twilight sanctuary (or anything else)
lovely, and still with the more generally impressive and wide-ranging part of the potential stack coming from Twilight Sanctuary (as long as it's not competing with other temp HP providers).
Why do 1 character's job when you can do 2? That's the twilight cleric.
For me that's not a problem. A good character can have, and maybe must have, more than one role. For example, the Genius Warlock can be an excelent blaster and infiltrator. Thats good and fun.
No no. Not that they capable of doing 2 different jobs, more that they're simultaneously and actively doing 2 jobs. Genie warlocks can't simultaneously be a blaster and an infiltrator. That... It'd be like giving your genie warlock Greater Invisibility at L2 so they can simultaneously be a blaster and an infiltrator.
Now, my job as DM is to think interesting challenges for this character (and the rest of the party). Make him shine, but also take him out of his comfort zone. And, in the end, tell a good story with that group.
There isn't a place they're not in their comfort zone though.
But anyway, that's what I think. That the TC doesn't break anything, it's a great subclass design. He does what he has to do very well, and is a top tier support. And hopefully more well-designed subclasses will come out. I don't want to see subclasses that don't work.
It is absolutely horrible design. He does what he's meant to do so well it is genuinely effortless, and now he can also take someone else's job too. Playing one, it feels like having more than one character in combat. One that is focused on keeping everyone safe, like a pocket healer, the other actually fighting the fight, like a blaster, or buff and fighting, even.
I'd imagine that War Domain Clerics, in particular, could have a real hatred for and envy of Twilight Domain Clerics. If it came to war, they just can't compete.
Heroes Feast is a comparable 6th lev spell for a Cler/Dru 11. It gives twelve creatures immunity to poison and being frightened, advantage on Wisdom saving throws 2d10 (11) temp hit points for 24 hours (but requires 1,000 gp materials).
With Twilight Sanctuary, an 11th lev cleric on a horse can either give 1d6+11 THP to 10 lots of creatures within a 30 ft radius or remove charmed or frightened condition (as of 6th lev they can do it twice per rest and they can do it for free). Even if you're not moving, you can just shout, say, 'sanctuary' and your THP needing allies can try to move close.
War domain clerics get a couple of +10s to hit and do an extra d8 damage on a hit each round. They're more battle clerics. Twilight Clerics would be far better in war.
Yeah if you had 2 sides of a conflict fighting one another, one lead by a War Cleric and the other side lead by a Twilight cleric, but were otherwise equal forces, standard low level warriors and whatnot. Hands down, without the slightest doubt in my mind the Twilight Cleric wins that conflict 99+% of the time. AOE Temp HP would protect so many of his troops that it'd swing the scales so dramatically they'd simply outlast the other side. So twilight is better at actual war than a cleric of war. It is sad.
One of the biggest issues with twilight sanctuary is temporary HP don't stack so characters with other sources of temporary HP suddenly feel underwelming.
The player with a vhuman charisma caster who took inspiring leader as a feat suddenly finds a twilight cleric is in the group and his feat is almost useless
Your other ones were on point, they'd be made truly and completely redundant and unusable if a TC was in the party. But this one, from my experience, is actually still helpful. The Inspiring Leader pops this ability during the morning or whatever and gets the whole party blanketed with THP, so the cleric doesn't need to burn their channel divinity early.
Now, could the cleric just use their TS and assume combat wont start for the next hour over breakfast while it SR refreshes? Yeah, probably. And will their TS give a slight couple more THP on average? Yeah, probably. But you don't have to ruin the guy's day and let him know that. He did use an entire feat so you didn't have to start carrying the team before you had your morning coffee.
This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
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This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
Twilight Sanctuary says "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." and that "... and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light." Nothing is said about a reduction to other sources of light and the Twilight Cleric can be interpreted to simply overlay their "sphere of twilight".
They're sane, and measured. Some even backed by numbers instead of hyperbole.
Numbers that are pretty slanted to make the point they're trying to make.
People talk about how great it is then conjure up super easy fights,
The ability varies between useful -to- broken OP depending on the encounter. You find it odd that when discussing how broken it is people discuss the situations it goes well and truly off the rails? Name one situation it isn't powerful in.
Signature abilities should be powerful. Powerful does not equal broken. We may just have different definitions of what "broken" is, but I see "broken" as something that consistently allows a party to trivialize encounters that should be above their weight class. Conjure woodland beings into pixies, into a bunch of flying t-rexes? That one is broken. That makes a double to triple deadly encounter pretty easy. Twilight Sanctuary is strong, but doesn't come even close to that.
That said, any situation where there is focused fire or even just one creature dealing substantial damage and this ability isn't saving the day. Will it still be useful as a level 4 party fighting a catoblepas? Sure, it should be useful. It's not going to save someone from dying if they fail badly against a death ray.
and point out that this "breaks" the game. No it doesn't. :\
It does. Most DMs who have some experience under their belt can and will fix the game, adjusting encounters, behaviors, and enemy composition to accommodate for such a powerfully OP ability. but the very fact they had to adjust their game in this way is definitive proof the ability is broken.
Yeah, we definitely have different definitions of what "broken" means.
TC don't break anything, It's just a subclass that works very well. And that's good for the game.
I strongly disagree. From the perspective of game balance, player experience, and DM experience, I feel that TC is, in fact, really bad for the game.
Player experience? In my experience players enjoy not dying, and a lot of people who traditionally love healers have been bummed out by the really lackluster options 5th edition has for that style. Now there's a real option for providing serious healing as a cleric, the class that is supposed to do that. I don't tend to play clerics, but it's nice seeing them back on top as the edition's best healing (at least in combat, under certain circumstances, druids are still better out of combat).
This subclass is working so very well, it makes (almost?) all other subclasses of the cleric pale in comparison. In addition, TC also steps on the toe of feats, spells, and subclass traits. Heck, every game feature offering temporary hit points is outclassed and obsoleted when you compare it directly; and there are quite a lot. Why play a glamour bard (their special inspiration)? Glory paladin (their most powerful channel divinity)? Artillerist (their most powerful turret)? Why take Inspiring Leader feat? Why ever use False Life or Heroism? These are all strictly inferior when compared to TC. A "clear winner" takes choices away from the players. That's bad.
I'm not convinced by this argument. Some options in the game are better than others, some are good, and some are really bad. That's why optimization and character guides exist. Why take the inspiring leader feat if you have a twilight cleric? Don't. Don't take that feat. A feat is cleared up, pick something else. Seems like a win to me.
This is something people did when they poo-pooed healing spirit (which was overtuned, but not "broken"), they pointed to a lot of subpar options that existed that optimizers would know better than to take, and assume because there was finally something in the role that an optimizer might want, that that made the ability broken. Healing spirit blew cure wounds out of the water, no contest, in post-battle healing. Does that make it broken? I mean, a little, but the comparison was always a bit silly because casting cure wounds out of combat (or even prayer of healing) is just kind of wasteful and rarely done if the party is comprised of people with a thorough understanding of the system. Healing in 5th edition was just pretty bad at launch, and that sucks for people who want to play a dedicated healer. Any fix they put in now is necessarily going to step on the toes of previously released subclasses, but them's the breaks.
As a player, I might enjoy being neigh invulnerable when running with a twilight cleric, right to the point where the adventure becomes boring. I had made this experience in person by now: Curse of Strahd is now mildly challenging instead of terrifyingly lethal. A bunch of vampire spawns had difficulties to penetrate the TC barrier of a level 4 cleric, which turned the famous "TPK" encounter into a fairly manageable fight. Felt a bit like cheating. If you do a CR calculation for the players' party, you will find that it raises it by 2 levels. That's bad.
I've actually never played any of the officially released modules, so I cannot speak from experience, but my understanding from a lot of people I've talked to is that they're pretty easy? My impression is that WotC designs those adventures for parties that are new to the game.
As a DM, it makes it harder to design challenging encounters. A good DM has ways to challenge the group anyway? Yes, I know how to send in wave after wave of enemies to make players spend all their resources. I know how to alpha-strike-focus-fire player characters. I know how to turn every second enemy into a spellcaster that can attempt to control the cleric. I know how to upgrade monsters to absurd levels in order to create a worthy challenge. And these things have the potential make fights tedius, antagonize players, or turn a theater of the mind into a min-maxed combat simulation. D&D 5 is already considered "too easy". There are already subclasses (and multi-class combination) and spells and feats that work "very well", in fact too well. Why add an even more powerful features? How does this make the game better?
I'd suggest to you that this is not a problem with the twilight cleric, but 5th edition's "adventuring day" more generally. People assume that the group is supposed to fight 6-8 medium fights a day (which I've heard Crawford say is a misreading of the DMG, I forget where he said that, one of the Sage Advice interviews). 6-8 medium fights a day definitely makes the twilight cleric stronger than I've experienced them, but most groups I've run into don't actually run 6-8 encounters. They run 2-4 harder encounters, and that favors twilight clerics far less.
That said, I like the Twilight cleric from the flavor perspective. But mechanically, TC (and the other traits as well, just not as badly) are too powerful.
Maybe try it out and see for yourself.
I have both DMed for and played a twilight cleric. Felt totally fine. I also play in pretty optimization-heavy groups, so that might explain it, but twilight cleric is just another good build along with lots of other good builds, and the cleric has its combat healing crown back.
The overreactions to this ability are just crazy. People talk about how great it is then conjure up super easy fights, assume the monsters behave in a stupid way and spread damage out, and point out that this "breaks" the game. No it doesn't. :\
They're sane, and measured. Some even backed by numbers instead of hyperbole.
The ability varies between useful -to- broken OP depending on the encounter. You find it odd that when discussing how broken it is people discuss the situations it goes well and truly off the rails? Name one situation it isn't powerful in.
It doesn't require this behavior to be OP, but it does enter into ludicrous levels of OP is this behavior does present itself.
It does. Most DMs who have some experience under their belt can and will fix the game, adjusting encounters, behaviors, and enemy composition to accommodate for such a powerfully OP ability. but the very fact they had to adjust their game in this way is definitive proof the ability is broken.
I got quotes!
Yep, Twilight Sanctuary is directly useful in all the many situations where the threat is to the health of the party.
On top of that, it's indirectly useful in other situations because the cleric will have less need to burn through spell slots to dole out healing and, as the cleric can have increased general confidence in the party health, s/he will be better able to take spell options other than, say, aid, cure wounds, prayer of healing etc.
The ability might become bonkers in the perhaps less likely event that your party has both a cleric and a druid at 7th level or in the perhaps more economical event that you have a cleric2/druid7.
A 7th level druid can cast conjure animals to summon 8 wolves or giant bats (or equivalent DM chosen beasts from CR1/4) and the twilight cleric can give the temp HP to all of them. HP of CR 1/4 beasts are: Axe Beak 19, Boar 11, Constrictor Snake 13, Draft Horse 19, Elk 13, Giant Badger 13, Giant Bat 22 (wow), Giant Centipede 4 (but with poison attack), ... The use of the cleric ability and the casting of the druid spell would just need to coincide and they'd all get a buff of 1d6+7 hp from a 7th level twilight cleric. Less powerfully, a 3rd level Wizard/Warlock could cast flock of familiars which, if the bonus action can work with the three familiars consecutively, could give reasonably secure advantage to three melee combatants. Advantage can equate to +5 on a roll. That's typically better than combat advantage of bless and, if the familiars survive, it lasts for an hour.
I understand what you mean. And partly you're right. But i don't think this is a proof that the ability is broken. I think the ability works the way it should, and that is one of the reasons why TC is tremendously competent. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. This force the DM to think out of the box, and it forces him to change his usual tactics. In the end, that makes the game more varied and fun, as players will have to adapt to new challenges as well. I don't see the bad side of it anywhere. What breaks the game are things that don't make sense, players who play their characters without following their class rules (like a cleric who don't care about his god), imposible builds that are narratively ridiculous, rules that in RAW don't work the way they should, etc .
TC don't break anything, It's just a subclass that works very well. And that's good for the game.
I have had TC at my table as a DM and have had no problem posing interesting challenges to my players. Nothing has been broken.
To your question about why to play other things while the twilight cleric exists, my answer is very simple: Because you want to play it, because you want to play that specific role. I understand that we have different ways of playing and understanding this game. That's fine, but understand that then the problem is not in the subclass design. The subclass is very well designed, and it does what it's supposed to do. It perfectly fulfills its role.
To finish, I have never understood that something unbalanced the game. Do you really think at this point that D&D intends to be balanced? It only takes a look at the design of the races to see that this is not the case. And nothing happens, the game is still fun. The balance is not important, the important thing is that the subclasses fulfill their role well. Something, by the way, that they don't always get. The TC does it, and then the complaints come. One man's meat is another man's poison, i suppose.
Since WotC responded to criticisms or the PHb's Beast Master Ranger and brought out Tasha's modifications of Beast Master Companions, I think it's possible that, while they may have some thoughts on balance in the game, they're just generally pretty bad at it.
I disagree that people want to play it because they want to play that specific role. In some cases, this may be the case but more often I suspect it's because it's for the more general role of a more effective character. I prefer the role of the character with 300 ft of darkvision over the role of the character without darkvision. I prefer the role of the cleric that can Channel Divinity to generate a powerful sphere of healing. This has little to do with roleplaying, say, getting excited about a fall of twilight but about gaining specific and powerfully rated character abilities.
I agree that Twilight Clerics fulfil their role well. Many would say that Twilight clerics do so disproportionately well while other subclasses may do so disproportionately poorly.
Yes, an unbalanced game can be fun, but so can a balanced game, and each DM can decide on their personal response and views in regard to the current situation.
I don't think I am that atypical but the majorty of thre people I know that play the game like powerful characters. This varies from the pure powergamer looking for obscure feature combinations to players who when looking through class and sub class features want something that is both interesting and effective. When a sub class is weak (e.g. beastmaster ranger pre Tasha's) few few people played it although it was the classically popular character with a pet.
Conversely if a subclass is much stronger than others most player's will gravitate to it. I remember seeing a post asking for advice for magic items for a druid and most of the replies assumed the player would be in wild shape during combat which I take ot mean they assumed there were circle of the moon.
I think WotC do try to balance classes and subclasses but recognise it is extremely complex and impossible to get perfect parity. Beast master was buffed in Tasha's to make it more viable. Stars and Spores provide alternative druid subclasses that are roughly the same effectiveness as moon.
With Twilight and indeed peace cleric I think they made a mistake, pre Tasha's there were a lot of cleric subclasses available to the player who considered power as a signifcant factor in deciding character builds since Tasha's nearly everyone who goes cleric goes Twilight. A lot of the remainder go peace (peace domain is insane for a dip, When my level 19 monk hit 20 peace domain gave him the ability to give 7 characters a 1d4 to saving throws ability checks and attacks for 10 minutes 7 times a day (enough to be virtually permanent),and it stacks with bless / guidance (which was generally his best use for spell slots).
After a recent session one of the other players advised me to get my wizard "Rime's binding ice" as a second level spell as it does the same damage as shatter and the equivalent de-buffing effect as web but not needing concentration. Nothing about whether it would fit my character concept, just if it flat out better than the alternatives (and to be honest while I don't have Fizban's yet I will probably buy at least the spell)
Ok, I think there is a misunderstanding here. Maybe it is because of my limited command of English (I'm not a native speaker).
Anyway, I am going to clarify some points of my argument. I am not saying that there are not people who want to play TC because it is good, but when asked: why would someone play something else (glamor bard, Glory paladin, Artillerist, and the other examples)? My answer is self-evident. Because they don't want to play a TC, they want to play something else. If someone wants to play TC because it seems very powerful, that's fine with me. Let everyone play the character they want. I don't see anything bad in it.. The game offers enough variety to suit different tastes.
In second place, the Beast Master example gives me the opportunity to explain something else that has not yet been clear. The beast master was poorly designed, but not because it was not balanced but because it did not fulfill its role. He was not doing well what he was supposed to do, and that is a problem. If behind the redesign there is a will to balance, I do not know. I am not in the head of the designers. But of course it now fulfills its function much better, without being the wet dream of a power gamer. I mean, they fixed it. Now works, and does the job. But I don't think it's a power gamer's first choice. Then the problem, at least for me, was not the balance, but a design that prevented playing it as it was supposed to be played.
And finally, I have no data. But in my games I still see other clerics who are not of twilight or peace. For example, I am playing one in which there is one of life. And in another that I am DM, I have a player with one of the forge. I suppose it will depend on the table, but my impression is that other cleric subclasses are played without problem. And they are good subclasses too. I think that here it's being a little bit of exagerated.
This is sorta the issue with TC but in reverse. It does what it does so well, that it is the very best at it, and it does it so effortlessly, that it also gets to do someone else's job on top of being the best at its own job.
A Twilight cleric isn't just providing unparalleled THP protection, condition removals, utility etc. It is also entirely free to use its spellcasting and other abilities offensively. Because why not? THP is pre-healing people, and TS doesn't require any involvement after you start it up, you have a Action and Bonus action to use every round still, so start nuking. Toss guiding bolts, throw out spiritual weapons, summon the spirit guardians and wade into the thick of it, out dps other players they'll love you for it.
Why do 1 character's job when you can do 2? That's the twilight cleric.
I got quotes!
For me that's not a problem. A good character can have, and maybe must have, more than one role. For example, the Genius Warlock can be an excelent blaster and infiltrator. Thats good and fun. Now, my job as DM is to think interesting challenges for this character (and the rest of the party). Make him shine, but also take him out of his comfort zone. And, in the end, tell a good story with that group.
But anyway, that's what I think. That the TC doesn't break anything, it's a great subclass design. He does what he has to do very well, and is a top tier support. And hopefully more well-designed subclasses will come out. I don't want to see subclasses that don't work.
This is the point that really gets it for me....
It's an ability that requires no concentration and no action economy so you can do all sorts of extra stuff with your concentration and action.
You can top off people who get solo'd including yourself....
You can just Cure Wounds yourself if the DM wants to target you or one of several concentration based defensive spells that the cleric gets.
You can even just run in and Dodge as an action and keep Spirit Guardians up to inflict a good deal of guaranteed damage.
You just took something that was already on the powerful side (base cleric) and gave it something that it didn't need to be useful.
One of the biggest issues with twilight sanctuary is temporary HP don't stack so characters with other sources of temporary HP suddenly feel underwelming.
Because twilight sanctuary is so much better than any other source of temporary hit points and it can give them to the whole party any other character who has a feature that provides temporary hit points finds them completly useless when TS is active (and in many campaigns TS can be up for nearly every combat at least from level 6), this makes the game less fun for those players or, at best, forces them to change their character once they find in session 0 that there is a twilight cleric in the group.
I'd imagine that War Domain Clerics, in particular, could have a real hatred for and envy of Twilight Domain Clerics. If it came to war, they just can't compete.
Heroes Feast is a comparable 6th lev spell for a Cler/Dru 11. It gives twelve creatures immunity to poison and being frightened, advantage on Wisdom saving throws 2d10 (11) temp hit points for 24 hours (but requires 1,000 gp materials).
With Twilight Sanctuary, an 11th lev cleric on a horse can either give 1d6+11 THP to 10 lots of creatures within a 30 ft radius or remove charmed or frightened condition (as of 6th lev they can do it twice per rest and they can do it for free). Even if you're not moving, you can just shout, say, 'sanctuary' and your THP needing allies can try to move close.
War domain clerics get a couple of +10s to hit and do an extra d8 damage on a hit each round. They're more battle clerics. Twilight Clerics would be far better in war.
Heroes Feast actually increases hit point maximum so it stacks with temporary hit points from twilight sanctuary (or anything else)
lovely, and still with the more generally impressive and wide-ranging part of the potential stack coming from Twilight Sanctuary (as long as it's not competing with other temp HP providers).
No no. Not that they capable of doing 2 different jobs, more that they're simultaneously and actively doing 2 jobs. Genie warlocks can't simultaneously be a blaster and an infiltrator. That... It'd be like giving your genie warlock Greater Invisibility at L2 so they can simultaneously be a blaster and an infiltrator.
There isn't a place they're not in their comfort zone though.
It is absolutely horrible design. He does what he's meant to do so well it is genuinely effortless, and now he can also take someone else's job too. Playing one, it feels like having more than one character in combat. One that is focused on keeping everyone safe, like a pocket healer, the other actually fighting the fight, like a blaster, or buff and fighting, even.
Yeah if you had 2 sides of a conflict fighting one another, one lead by a War Cleric and the other side lead by a Twilight cleric, but were otherwise equal forces, standard low level warriors and whatnot. Hands down, without the slightest doubt in my mind the Twilight Cleric wins that conflict 99+% of the time. AOE Temp HP would protect so many of his troops that it'd swing the scales so dramatically they'd simply outlast the other side. So twilight is better at actual war than a cleric of war. It is sad.
Your other ones were on point, they'd be made truly and completely redundant and unusable if a TC was in the party. But this one, from my experience, is actually still helpful. The Inspiring Leader pops this ability during the morning or whatever and gets the whole party blanketed with THP, so the cleric doesn't need to burn their channel divinity early.
Now, could the cleric just use their TS and assume combat wont start for the next hour over breakfast while it SR refreshes? Yeah, probably. And will their TS give a slight couple more THP on average? Yeah, probably. But you don't have to ruin the guy's day and let him know that. He did use an entire feat so you didn't have to start carrying the team before you had your morning coffee.
I got quotes!
This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
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Twilight Sanctuary says "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." and that "... and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light." Nothing is said about a reduction to other sources of light and the Twilight Cleric can be interpreted to simply overlay their "sphere of twilight".
Numbers that are pretty slanted to make the point they're trying to make.
Signature abilities should be powerful. Powerful does not equal broken. We may just have different definitions of what "broken" is, but I see "broken" as something that consistently allows a party to trivialize encounters that should be above their weight class. Conjure woodland beings into pixies, into a bunch of flying t-rexes? That one is broken. That makes a double to triple deadly encounter pretty easy. Twilight Sanctuary is strong, but doesn't come even close to that.
That said, any situation where there is focused fire or even just one creature dealing substantial damage and this ability isn't saving the day. Will it still be useful as a level 4 party fighting a catoblepas? Sure, it should be useful. It's not going to save someone from dying if they fail badly against a death ray.
Yeah, we definitely have different definitions of what "broken" means.
Player experience? In my experience players enjoy not dying, and a lot of people who traditionally love healers have been bummed out by the really lackluster options 5th edition has for that style. Now there's a real option for providing serious healing as a cleric, the class that is supposed to do that. I don't tend to play clerics, but it's nice seeing them back on top as the edition's best healing (at least in combat, under certain circumstances, druids are still better out of combat).
I'm not convinced by this argument. Some options in the game are better than others, some are good, and some are really bad. That's why optimization and character guides exist. Why take the inspiring leader feat if you have a twilight cleric? Don't. Don't take that feat. A feat is cleared up, pick something else. Seems like a win to me.
This is something people did when they poo-pooed healing spirit (which was overtuned, but not "broken"), they pointed to a lot of subpar options that existed that optimizers would know better than to take, and assume because there was finally something in the role that an optimizer might want, that that made the ability broken. Healing spirit blew cure wounds out of the water, no contest, in post-battle healing. Does that make it broken? I mean, a little, but the comparison was always a bit silly because casting cure wounds out of combat (or even prayer of healing) is just kind of wasteful and rarely done if the party is comprised of people with a thorough understanding of the system. Healing in 5th edition was just pretty bad at launch, and that sucks for people who want to play a dedicated healer. Any fix they put in now is necessarily going to step on the toes of previously released subclasses, but them's the breaks.
I've actually never played any of the officially released modules, so I cannot speak from experience, but my understanding from a lot of people I've talked to is that they're pretty easy? My impression is that WotC designs those adventures for parties that are new to the game.
I'd suggest to you that this is not a problem with the twilight cleric, but 5th edition's "adventuring day" more generally. People assume that the group is supposed to fight 6-8 medium fights a day (which I've heard Crawford say is a misreading of the DMG, I forget where he said that, one of the Sage Advice interviews). 6-8 medium fights a day definitely makes the twilight cleric stronger than I've experienced them, but most groups I've run into don't actually run 6-8 encounters. They run 2-4 harder encounters, and that favors twilight clerics far less.
I have both DMed for and played a twilight cleric. Felt totally fine. I also play in pretty optimization-heavy groups, so that might explain it, but twilight cleric is just another good build along with lots of other good builds, and the cleric has its combat healing crown back.