They're sane, and measured. Some even backed by numbers instead of hyperbole.
Numbers that are pretty slanted to make the point they're trying to make.
People talk about how great it is then conjure up super easy fights,
The ability varies between useful -to- broken OP depending on the encounter. You find it odd that when discussing how broken it is people discuss the situations it goes well and truly off the rails? Name one situation it isn't powerful in.
Signature abilities should be powerful. Powerful does not equal broken. We may just have different definitions of what "broken" is, but I see "broken" as something that consistently allows a party to trivialize encounters that should be above their weight class. Conjure woodland beings into pixies, into a bunch of flying t-rexes? That one is broken. That makes a double to triple deadly encounter pretty easy. Twilight Sanctuary is strong, but doesn't come even close to that.
That said, any situation where there is focused fire or even just one creature dealing substantial damage and this ability isn't saving the day. Will it still be useful as a level 4 party fighting a catoblepas? Sure, it should be useful. It's not going to save someone from dying if they fail badly against a death ray.
and point out that this "breaks" the game. No it doesn't. :\
It does. Most DMs who have some experience under their belt can and will fix the game, adjusting encounters, behaviors, and enemy composition to accommodate for such a powerfully OP ability. but the very fact they had to adjust their game in this way is definitive proof the ability is broken.
Yeah, we definitely have different definitions of what "broken" means.
TC don't break anything, It's just a subclass that works very well. And that's good for the game.
I strongly disagree. From the perspective of game balance, player experience, and DM experience, I feel that TC is, in fact, really bad for the game.
Player experience? In my experience players enjoy not dying, and a lot of people who traditionally love healers have been bummed out by the really lackluster options 5th edition has for that style. Now there's a real option for providing serious healing as a cleric, the class that is supposed to do that. I don't tend to play clerics, but it's nice seeing them back on top as the edition's best healing (at least in combat, under certain circumstances, druids are still better out of combat).
This subclass is working so very well, it makes (almost?) all other subclasses of the cleric pale in comparison. In addition, TC also steps on the toe of feats, spells, and subclass traits. Heck, every game feature offering temporary hit points is outclassed and obsoleted when you compare it directly; and there are quite a lot. Why play a glamour bard (their special inspiration)? Glory paladin (their most powerful channel divinity)? Artillerist (their most powerful turret)? Why take Inspiring Leader feat? Why ever use False Life or Heroism? These are all strictly inferior when compared to TC. A "clear winner" takes choices away from the players. That's bad.
I'm not convinced by this argument. Some options in the game are better than others, some are good, and some are really bad. That's why optimization and character guides exist. Why take the inspiring leader feat if you have a twilight cleric? Don't. Don't take that feat. A feat is cleared up, pick something else. Seems like a win to me.
This is something people did when they poo-pooed healing spirit (which was overtuned, but not "broken"), they pointed to a lot of subpar options that existed that optimizers would know better than to take, and assume because there was finally something in the role that an optimizer might want, that that made the ability broken. Healing spirit blew cure wounds out of the water, no contest, in post-battle healing. Does that make it broken? I mean, a little, but the comparison was always a bit silly because casting cure wounds out of combat (or even prayer of healing) is just kind of wasteful and rarely done if the party is comprised of people with a thorough understanding of the system. Healing in 5th edition was just pretty bad at launch, and that sucks for people who want to play a dedicated healer. Any fix they put in now is necessarily going to step on the toes of previously released subclasses, but them's the breaks.
As a player, I might enjoy being neigh invulnerable when running with a twilight cleric, right to the point where the adventure becomes boring. I had made this experience in person by now: Curse of Strahd is now mildly challenging instead of terrifyingly lethal. A bunch of vampire spawns had difficulties to penetrate the TC barrier of a level 4 cleric, which turned the famous "TPK" encounter into a fairly manageable fight. Felt a bit like cheating. If you do a CR calculation for the players' party, you will find that it raises it by 2 levels. That's bad.
I've actually never played any of the officially released modules, so I cannot speak from experience, but my understanding from a lot of people I've talked to is that they're pretty easy? My impression is that WotC designs those adventures for parties that are new to the game.
As a DM, it makes it harder to design challenging encounters. A good DM has ways to challenge the group anyway? Yes, I know how to send in wave after wave of enemies to make players spend all their resources. I know how to alpha-strike-focus-fire player characters. I know how to turn every second enemy into a spellcaster that can attempt to control the cleric. I know how to upgrade monsters to absurd levels in order to create a worthy challenge. And these things have the potential make fights tedius, antagonize players, or turn a theater of the mind into a min-maxed combat simulation. D&D 5 is already considered "too easy". There are already subclasses (and multi-class combination) and spells and feats that work "very well", in fact too well. Why add an even more powerful features? How does this make the game better?
I'd suggest to you that this is not a problem with the twilight cleric, but 5th edition's "adventuring day" more generally. People assume that the group is supposed to fight 6-8 medium fights a day (which I've heard Crawford say is a misreading of the DMG, I forget where he said that, one of the Sage Advice interviews). 6-8 medium fights a day definitely makes the twilight cleric stronger than I've experienced them, but most groups I've run into don't actually run 6-8 encounters. They run 2-4 harder encounters, and that favors twilight clerics far less.
That said, I like the Twilight cleric from the flavor perspective. But mechanically, TC (and the other traits as well, just not as badly) are too powerful.
Maybe try it out and see for yourself.
I have both DMed for and played a twilight cleric. Felt totally fine. I also play in pretty optimization-heavy groups, so that might explain it, but twilight cleric is just another good build along with lots of other good builds, and the cleric has its combat healing crown back.
Yeah, I don't much like the terminology "broken". I just think that Twilight Domain is so disproportionately powerful (situationally) that (in those situations) it severely disrupts the balance of the game.
In situations in which there are just perhaps 3 characters heading out adventuring and, even then, Twilight Domain would still be great.
In a situation in which there are 6 or more characters, maybe some added NPCs, maybe familiars or pets, maybe some conjured allies... and the subclass gets completely nuts.
Conjure woodland beings says that you can: ... Choose one of the following options for what appears:
...
Eight fey creatures of challenge rating 1/4 or lower
... The GM has the creatures' statistics. You can see some sample creatures below.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using certain higher-level spell slots, you choose one of the summoning options above, and more creatures appear: twice as many with a 6th-level slot and three times as many with an 8th-level slot.
This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
Twilight Sanctuary says "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." and that "... and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light." Nothing is said about a reduction to other sources of light and the Twilight Cleric can be interpreted to simply overlay their "sphere of twilight".
Right, so because the area around you is filled with dim light, thats enough for a Shadow monk to use its teleportation ability.
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This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
Twilight Sanctuary says "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." and that "... and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light." Nothing is said about a reduction to other sources of light and the Twilight Cleric can be interpreted to simply overlay their "sphere of twilight".
Right, so because the area around you is filled with dim light, thats enough for a Shadow monk to use its teleportation ability.
IF the area wasn't already filled with enough light that a further addition of dim light would make bright light, yes. I wouldn't interpret a shadow monk's abilities necessarily being enabled by more light being added.
The actual light in bright light is a lovely open question. It reads that it is dim light. It does not qualify how it interacts with bright light, darkness, magical darkness, etc. It is a very specific statment/rule. As written it could easily be argued it does what it says it does in bright light, darkness, and possibly magical darkness.
While we usually think of this from a standard character making the darkness dim light, imagine the same power but from someone like a drow's perspective. Wouldn't their deity be more interested in turning bright light into dim light?
Personally after long discussion with fellow DM's we ruled that it does what it says it does. It fills the area with dim light. In bright light, in darkness. The only exception we made was magical darkness where we decided that as channel divinity was something you get before 2nd level spells it would not invalidate magic darkness.
This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
Twilight Sanctuary says "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." and that "... and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light." Nothing is said about a reduction to other sources of light and the Twilight Cleric can be interpreted to simply overlay their "sphere of twilight".
Right, so because the area around you is filled with dim light, thats enough for a Shadow monk to use its teleportation ability.
IF the area wasn't already filled with enough light that a further addition of dim light would make bright light, yes. I wouldn't interpret a shadow monk's abilities necessarily being enabled by more light being added.
I interpret their ability as only ever being filled with dim light and that it totally replaces what was naturally present, not that there is an additive property.
The actual light in bright light is a lovely open question. It reads that it is dim light. It does not qualify how it interacts with bright light, darkness, magical darkness, etc. It is a very specific statment/rule. As written it could easily be argued it does what it says it does in bright light, darkness, and possibly magical darkness.
While we usually think of this from a standard character making the darkness dim light, imagine the same power but from someone like a drow's perspective. Wouldn't their deity be more interested in turning bright light into dim light?
Personally after long discussion with fellow DM's we ruled that it does what it says it does. It fills the area with dim light. In bright light, in darkness. The only exception we made was magical darkness where we decided that as channel divinity was something you get before 2nd level spells it would not invalidate magic darkness.
Thats about how I see it. Only ever filled with dim light. That beings said the question of how it interacts with magical darkness is a strange one
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This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
Twilight Sanctuary says "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." and that "... and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light." Nothing is said about a reduction to other sources of light and the Twilight Cleric can be interpreted to simply overlay their "sphere of twilight".
Right, so because the area around you is filled with dim light, thats enough for a Shadow monk to use its teleportation ability.
IF the area wasn't already filled with enough light that a further addition of dim light would make bright light, yes. I wouldn't interpret a shadow monk's abilities necessarily being enabled by more light being added.
I interpret their ability as only ever being filled with dim light and that it totally replaces what was naturally present, not that there is an additive property.
Yeah I wish they would clarify one way or the other....it would be odd it would dim existing light but definitely makes sense thematically.
If it doesn't then brightening darkness to dim light makes more sense but is less fun IMO.
This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
Twilight Sanctuary says "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." and that "... and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light." Nothing is said about a reduction to other sources of light and the Twilight Cleric can be interpreted to simply overlay their "sphere of twilight".
Right, so because the area around you is filled with dim light, thats enough for a Shadow monk to use its teleportation ability.
IF the area wasn't already filled with enough light that a further addition of dim light would make bright light, yes. I wouldn't interpret a shadow monk's abilities necessarily being enabled by more light being added.
I interpret their ability as only ever being filled with dim light and that it totally replaces what was naturally present, not that there is an additive property.
But what you are suggesting is a potentially reductive property potentially able to reduce the presence of light.
Vision and Light ... In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
I find it difficult to imagine that a Twilight Sanctuary would function to place a cleric's allies at disadvantage.
This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
Twilight Sanctuary says "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." and that "... and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light." Nothing is said about a reduction to other sources of light and the Twilight Cleric can be interpreted to simply overlay their "sphere of twilight".
Right, so because the area around you is filled with dim light, thats enough for a Shadow monk to use its teleportation ability.
IF the area wasn't already filled with enough light that a further addition of dim light would make bright light, yes. I wouldn't interpret a shadow monk's abilities necessarily being enabled by more light being added.
I interpret their ability as only ever being filled with dim light and that it totally replaces what was naturally present, not that there is an additive property.
But what you are suggesting is a potentially reductive property potentially able to reduce the presence of light.
Vision and Light ... In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
I find it difficult to imagine that a Twilight Sanctuary would function to place a cleric's allies at disadvantage.
The way I view it is the cleric creates a bubble area of effect. Within that bubble their allies get temp HP and the lighting is dim light. Whatever lighting was in that area beforehand is overridden by this dim light because it is magically produced. So not additive and not reductive. Just a replacement by a magical source.
Also, it would only be disadvantage on perception checks and only within the area, not outside of it. So your allies can perceive enemies outside of this area just fine. It may help enemies to be stealthier if they are nearby, but its the same for your allies so at that point its a zero sum
This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
Twilight Sanctuary says "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." and that "... and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light." Nothing is said about a reduction to other sources of light and the Twilight Cleric can be interpreted to simply overlay their "sphere of twilight".
Right, so because the area around you is filled with dim light, thats enough for a Shadow monk to use its teleportation ability.
IF the area wasn't already filled with enough light that a further addition of dim light would make bright light, yes. I wouldn't interpret a shadow monk's abilities necessarily being enabled by more light being added.
I interpret their ability as only ever being filled with dim light and that it totally replaces what was naturally present, not that there is an additive property.
But what you are suggesting is a potentially reductive property potentially able to reduce the presence of light.
Vision and Light ... In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
I find it difficult to imagine that a Twilight Sanctuary would function to place a cleric's allies at disadvantage.
The way I view it is the cleric creates a bubble area of effect. Within that bubble their allies get temp HP and the lighting is dim light. Whatever lighting was in that area beforehand is overridden by this dim light because it is magically produced. So not additive and not reductive. Just a replacement by a magical source.
Also, it would only be disadvantage on perception checks and only within the area, not outside of it. So your allies can perceive enemies outside of this area just fine. It may help enemies to be stealthier if they are nearby, but its the same for your allies so at that point its a zero sum
Maybe but this might leave characters to potentially respond, "Shit Cleric! It's been ~8 rounds since you gave us the extra 'hit points'. Can't you let our torches, lanterns, light and daylight spells, sun start working again?"
This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
Twilight Sanctuary says "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." and that "... and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light." Nothing is said about a reduction to other sources of light and the Twilight Cleric can be interpreted to simply overlay their "sphere of twilight".
Right, so because the area around you is filled with dim light, thats enough for a Shadow monk to use its teleportation ability.
IF the area wasn't already filled with enough light that a further addition of dim light would make bright light, yes. I wouldn't interpret a shadow monk's abilities necessarily being enabled by more light being added.
I interpret their ability as only ever being filled with dim light and that it totally replaces what was naturally present, not that there is an additive property.
But what you are suggesting is a potentially reductive property potentially able to reduce the presence of light.
Vision and Light ... In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
I find it difficult to imagine that a Twilight Sanctuary would function to place a cleric's allies at disadvantage.
The way I view it is the cleric creates a bubble area of effect. Within that bubble their allies get temp HP and the lighting is dim light. Whatever lighting was in that area beforehand is overridden by this dim light because it is magically produced. So not additive and not reductive. Just a replacement by a magical source.
Also, it would only be disadvantage on perception checks and only within the area, not outside of it. So your allies can perceive enemies outside of this area just fine. It may help enemies to be stealthier if they are nearby, but its the same for your allies so at that point its a zero sum
Maybe but this might leave characters to potentially respond, "Shit Cleric! It's been ~8 rounds since you gave us the extra 'hit points'. Can't you let our torches, lanterns, light and daylight spells, sun start working again?"
Maybe, but the same could be said for a wizard casting Darkness at an inopportune time or place. Either way, the allies can always leave the "bubble" when the please to take advantage of different lighting and then either be followed by the cleric on their turn or dip back to the cleric's position on a different turn.
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There are already long threads about whether it is or isn't filled with Dim light. This thread is about the Twilight Cleric power level generally, and if you wanna switch topics to whether or not TS fills its area with dim light or not, head on over to any one of those other topics. They're basically any thread about twilight clerics eventually devolves into this question for 8 pages.
Even if the Grumpy Smurf complains again about the light issue being talked about, I will give my opinion. RAW says "fills", so it's pretty clear to me that it "overwrites" any other light in the sphere. It doesn't say that "emits" dim light. That's the key for me.
Anyway, you can create dim light by simply blocking a bright light source (shading, actually). So i don't think you need to multiclass only for this. A Shadow Monk can simple use a cape or something like that. The problem is that you have to see the shadow you are going to, which can be tricky with this tactic. Still, it doesn't seem like a big deal to multiclass for that. What is interesting is if another partner can benefit from dim light (for example with a Shadow Blade).
Regarding the discussion of whether the twilight cleric is broken, I am more on the side of those who think not. It's one of the best cleric subclasses. That's indisputable. But from there to say that it breaks the game, i don't know. It depends on the skill of the DM, actually. But, like other builds, it can stand out too much if the DM doesn't have experience. If not, it's another excelent build like many others.
This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
Twilight Sanctuary says "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." and that "... and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light." Nothing is said about a reduction to other sources of light and the Twilight Cleric can be interpreted to simply overlay their "sphere of twilight".
Right, so because the area around you is filled with dim light, thats enough for a Shadow monk to use its teleportation ability.
IF the area wasn't already filled with enough light that a further addition of dim light would make bright light, yes. I wouldn't interpret a shadow monk's abilities necessarily being enabled by more light being added.
I interpret their ability as only ever being filled with dim light and that it totally replaces what was naturally present, not that there is an additive property.
But what you are suggesting is a potentially reductive property potentially able to reduce the presence of light.
Vision and Light ... In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
I find it difficult to imagine that a Twilight Sanctuary would function to place a cleric's allies at disadvantage.
The way I view it is the cleric creates a bubble area of effect. Within that bubble their allies get temp HP and the lighting is dim light. Whatever lighting was in that area beforehand is overridden by this dim light because it is magically produced. So not additive and not reductive. Just a replacement by a magical source.
Also, it would only be disadvantage on perception checks and only within the area, not outside of it. So your allies can perceive enemies outside of this area just fine. It may help enemies to be stealthier if they are nearby, but its the same for your allies so at that point its a zero sum
Maybe but this might leave characters to potentially respond, "Shit Cleric! It's been ~8 rounds since you gave us the extra 'hit points'. Can't you let our torches, lanterns, light and daylight spells, sun start working again?"
Maybe, but the same could be said for a wizard casting Darkness at an inopportune time or place. Either way, the allies can always leave the "bubble" when the please to take advantage of different lighting and then either be followed by the cleric on their turn or dip back to the cleric's position on a different turn.
Maybe but this might leave characters to potentially respond, "Shit Cleric! Thanks for all those extra 'hit points' and all... but can you just stop following us and let our torches, lanterns, light and daylight spells, sun start working again?"
The Twilight Domain tells us of: The twilit transition from light into darkness often brings calm and even joy, as the day’s labors end and the hours of rest begin. The darkness can also bring terrors, but the gods of twilight guard against the horrors of the night.
Clerics who serve these deities—examples of which appear on the Twilight Deities table—bring comfort to those who seek rest and protect them by venturing into the encroaching darkness to ensure that the dark is a comfort, not a terror.
I don't see that this fits well with a situation where allied "creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight".
Quote from GergKyae>>I don't see that this fits well with a situation where allied "creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight".
The converse side of this is it protects the party by enabling perception checks that rely on sight against the party to have disadvantage. Any perception checks by the party to see things more than 30ft away from the cleric are not affected by TS.
Quote from GergKyae>>I don't see that this fits well with a situation where allied "creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight".
The converse side of this is it protects the party by enabling perception checks that rely on sight against the party to have disadvantage. Any perception checks by the party to see things more than 30ft away from the cleric are not affected by TS.
Good point, but a 60 ft sphere "being filled with dim light ... that ... totally replaces what was naturally present" could potentially be an attention grabber. The cleric comes within 30 ft and the lights go out.
Everything about it is strong in its own way, but the best feature is Twilight Sanctuary. Grants temporary hit points at every turn. The spell list is strong to. I mean, faerie fire, see invisibility, circle of power, aura of life, and greater invisibility. Vigilant Blessing can ensure that no enemy would get a jump on any one member of the party. Use it on the party member with the lowest initiative, or the character that could benefit from initiative the most.
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This is a tangent, but since Twilight Domain cleric's CD produces dim light, does that mean if you were playing a Way of Shadow monk with a 2-level cleric dip, you could effectively carry around a teleportation circle for yourself while your CD is active? Its by no means the most effective use of this CD, but it is an interesting combo in my opinion. You still have to find the other shadow you pop to, but you are always guaranteed to be able to pop from whatever position you are at since youre always encompassed by dim light.
Twilight Sanctuary says "You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight." and that "... and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light." Nothing is said about a reduction to other sources of light and the Twilight Cleric can be interpreted to simply overlay their "sphere of twilight".
Right, so because the area around you is filled with dim light, thats enough for a Shadow monk to use its teleportation ability.
IF the area wasn't already filled with enough light that a further addition of dim light would make bright light, yes. I wouldn't interpret a shadow monk's abilities necessarily being enabled by more light being added.
I interpret their ability as only ever being filled with dim light and that it totally replaces what was naturally present, not that there is an additive property.
But what you are suggesting is a potentially reductive property potentially able to reduce the presence of light.
Vision and Light ... In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
I find it difficult to imagine that a Twilight Sanctuary would function to place a cleric's allies at disadvantage.
The way I view it is the cleric creates a bubble area of effect. Within that bubble their allies get temp HP and the lighting is dim light. Whatever lighting was in that area beforehand is overridden by this dim light because it is magically produced. So not additive and not reductive. Just a replacement by a magical source.
Also, it would only be disadvantage on perception checks and only within the area, not outside of it. So your allies can perceive enemies outside of this area just fine. It may help enemies to be stealthier if they are nearby, but its the same for your allies so at that point its a zero sum
Maybe but this might leave characters to potentially respond, "Shit Cleric! It's been ~8 rounds since you gave us the extra 'hit points'. Can't you let our torches, lanterns, light and daylight spells, sun start working again?"
Maybe, but the same could be said for a wizard casting Darkness at an inopportune time or place. Either way, the allies can always leave the "bubble" when the please to take advantage of different lighting and then either be followed by the cleric on their turn or dip back to the cleric's position on a different turn.
Maybe but this might leave characters to potentially respond, "Shit Cleric! Thanks for all those extra 'hit points' and all... but can you just stop following us and let our torches, lanterns, light and daylight spells, sun start working again?"
The Twilight Domain tells us of: The twilit transition from light into darkness often brings calm and even joy, as the day’s labors end and the hours of rest begin. The darkness can also bring terrors, but the gods of twilight guard against the horrors of the night.
Clerics who serve these deities—examples of which appear on the Twilight Deities table—bring comfort to those who seek rest and protect them by venturing into the encroaching darkness to ensure that the dark is a comfort, not a terror.
I don't see that this fits well with a situation where allied "creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight".
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I mean.. nothing really stops the cleric from just giving the party 300 ft of [darkvision] with Eyes of the night right?
I don't see that this fits well with a situation where allied "creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight".
/
I mean.. nothing really stops the cleric from just giving the party 300 ft of [darkvision] with Eyes of the night right?
Yeah it works great. You can always ensure your crew can see fine and without penalty, and situationally impose penalties to enemies who don't have darkvision or other special senses. It is super useful and powerful, and barely mentioned because of how much the THP overshadows it. (pun intended)
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Yeah, I don't much like the terminology "broken". I just think that Twilight Domain is so disproportionately powerful (situationally) that (in those situations) it severely disrupts the balance of the game.
In situations in which there are just perhaps 3 characters heading out adventuring and, even then, Twilight Domain would still be great.
In a situation in which there are 6 or more characters, maybe some added NPCs, maybe familiars or pets, maybe some conjured allies... and the subclass gets completely nuts.
Conjure woodland beings says that you can:
...
Choose one of the following options for what appears:
...
The GM has the creatures' statistics. You can see some sample creatures below.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using certain higher-level spell slots, you choose one of the summoning options above, and more creatures appear: twice as many with a 6th-level slot and three times as many with an 8th-level slot.
Sample Creatures
...
The typical interpretation is that the DM makes the choice in regarding the type of fey summoned.
I'd suggest that a DM that opted for pixies was broken.
Right, so because the area around you is filled with dim light, thats enough for a Shadow monk to use its teleportation ability.
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IF the area wasn't already filled with enough light that a further addition of dim light would make bright light, yes. I wouldn't interpret a shadow monk's abilities necessarily being enabled by more light being added.
The actual light in bright light is a lovely open question. It reads that it is dim light. It does not qualify how it interacts with bright light, darkness, magical darkness, etc. It is a very specific statment/rule. As written it could easily be argued it does what it says it does in bright light, darkness, and possibly magical darkness.
While we usually think of this from a standard character making the darkness dim light, imagine the same power but from someone like a drow's perspective. Wouldn't their deity be more interested in turning bright light into dim light?
Personally after long discussion with fellow DM's we ruled that it does what it says it does. It fills the area with dim light. In bright light, in darkness. The only exception we made was magical darkness where we decided that as channel divinity was something you get before 2nd level spells it would not invalidate magic darkness.
I interpret their ability as only ever being filled with dim light and that it totally replaces what was naturally present, not that there is an additive property.
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Thats about how I see it. Only ever filled with dim light. That beings said the question of how it interacts with magical darkness is a strange one
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Yeah I wish they would clarify one way or the other....it would be odd it would dim existing light but definitely makes sense thematically.
If it doesn't then brightening darkness to dim light makes more sense but is less fun IMO.
But alas we will have to wait for Errata!
But what you are suggesting is a potentially reductive property potentially able to reduce the presence of light.
Vision and Light
... In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
I find it difficult to imagine that a Twilight Sanctuary would function to place a cleric's allies at disadvantage.
The way I view it is the cleric creates a bubble area of effect. Within that bubble their allies get temp HP and the lighting is dim light. Whatever lighting was in that area beforehand is overridden by this dim light because it is magically produced. So not additive and not reductive. Just a replacement by a magical source.
Also, it would only be disadvantage on perception checks and only within the area, not outside of it. So your allies can perceive enemies outside of this area just fine. It may help enemies to be stealthier if they are nearby, but its the same for your allies so at that point its a zero sum
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Maybe but this might leave characters to potentially respond, "Shit Cleric! It's been ~8 rounds since you gave us the extra 'hit points'. Can't you let our torches, lanterns, light and daylight spells, sun start working again?"
Maybe, but the same could be said for a wizard casting Darkness at an inopportune time or place. Either way, the allies can always leave the "bubble" when the please to take advantage of different lighting and then either be followed by the cleric on their turn or dip back to the cleric's position on a different turn.
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There are already long threads about whether it is or isn't filled with Dim light. This thread is about the Twilight Cleric power level generally, and if you wanna switch topics to whether or not TS fills its area with dim light or not, head on over to any one of those other topics. They're basically any thread about twilight clerics eventually devolves into this question for 8 pages.
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Maybe but this might leave characters to potentially respond, "Shit Cleric! Thanks for all those extra 'hit points' and all... but can you just stop following us and let our torches, lanterns, light and daylight spells, sun start working again?"
The Twilight Domain tells us of:
The twilit transition from light into darkness often brings calm and even joy, as the day’s labors end and the hours of rest begin. The darkness can also bring terrors, but the gods of twilight guard against the horrors of the night.
Clerics who serve these deities—examples of which appear on the Twilight Deities table—bring comfort to those who seek rest and protect them by venturing into the encroaching darkness to ensure that the dark is a comfort, not a terror.
I don't see that this fits well with a situation where allied "creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight".
The converse side of this is it protects the party by enabling perception checks that rely on sight against the party to have disadvantage. Any perception checks by the party to see things more than 30ft away from the cleric are not affected by TS.
Good point, but a 60 ft sphere "being filled with dim light ... that ... totally replaces what was naturally present" could potentially be an attention grabber. The cleric comes within 30 ft and the lights go out.
Post this in R&GM:
Not exactly Sage Advice, but from one of the designers, Dan Dillon, when it was only a UA class:
https://twitter.com/Dan_Dillon_1/status/1179861283429990400
Everything about it is strong in its own way, but the best feature is Twilight Sanctuary. Grants temporary hit points at every turn. The spell list is strong to. I mean, faerie fire, see invisibility, circle of power, aura of life, and greater invisibility. Vigilant Blessing can ensure that no enemy would get a jump on any one member of the party. Use it on the party member with the lowest initiative, or the character that could benefit from initiative the most.
Brains over brawn? Mind over matter? These canny warriors rightly answer, "Why not both?" - Tasha
My Homebrews: Monsters, Magic Items, Spells, Races
Rhulg- Hobgoblin Gunsmith
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I mean.. nothing really stops the cleric from just giving the party 300 ft of [darkvision] with Eyes of the night right?
Yeah it works great. You can always ensure your crew can see fine and without penalty, and situationally impose penalties to enemies who don't have darkvision or other special senses. It is super useful and powerful, and barely mentioned because of how much the THP overshadows it. (pun intended)
I got quotes!