I've always wanted to know what others thought of this debate. Are clerics and paladins similar in D&D? Can a cleric play as a paladin if given access to the paladin spell list?
Early levels they can be quite similar if you play a war cleric as they both have high AC, hit ok, sword and board and have radiant damage.
But I feel they differ as they get more levels as the Paladin will carry on hitting harder where a War Cleric tends to nearly solely use spells (Sacred Flame) from about lvl5. Paladin has his wrathful smite or what ever it is called to do extra damage when they hit.
Even with Paladin spells I dont think a Cleric would be as good at hitting but a good tank or dmg sponge like a paladin
The theme is similar. Holy magic. Smacking evil. (Unless you're a Cleric of an evil deity, of course.)
If you like story and RP, then you can already play a Cleric as a righteous, oath-bound crusader. But mechanically Hartke is right, a Cleric will lean more and more toward spells without the melee capability the Paladin class has.
The theme is similar. Holy magic. Smacking evil. (Unless you're a Cleric of an evil deity, of course.)
If you like story and RP, then you can already play a Cleric as a righteous, oath-bound crusader. But mechanically Hartke is right, a Cleric will lean more and more toward spells without the melee capability the Paladin class has.
This exactly. It's all about how you present yourself. Mechanically they will differ but a Cleric can be just as much a holy crusader and a Paladin can be a pious servant. Utilizing their different abilities in those roles that aren't quite the right fit will make for interesting role-playing and character development.
Agreed, my War Cleric is similar to our Paladin as in both detest undead and people that use that kind of magic, to the point where we both turn into the Hulk upon seeing undead, zombies etc lol We both worship same god so both pursue the same goals in a way
Yea! A lot of the cleric domains gain some sort of damage bonus at level 8 for their weapon attacks. This helps the keep competitive in melee (or ranged!).
It is devotion to spreading the word - a cleric is a priest - they are the ones to spread the word, minister to the faithful, decide on and interpret the word of the gods. The Paladins are the militia arm - the faith militant - yes they have faith but are not about spreading it they go where pointed at by the clerics. Yes they may lead small services but generally to other Paladins - a cleric goes into the badlands to spread the word, they bring a Paladin as back up....
I'd not say "No" to your question, but one big difference to think about is that the Cleric is a Wisdom class, and the Paladin is Charisma based. This spins off a lot of mechanical and role-play differences. Mechanically the Paladin will be generally better at social skills, more of a talker and leader. The Cleric will have better insight, perception, medicine, even survival and be more of thoughtful problem solver. Of course individual builds can run counter to all this, but it is a core difference in the two classes. Think about how Hollywood might cast a role for 'the most charismatic' holy warrior, versus 'the wisest' holy warrior. I think those would tend to be very different, but both interesting, characters!
How well does Spiritual Weapon work out in actual play? I've just started a new campaign (only second we've ever done), and the group wanted something with high AC to help absorb hits, so I was picking between paladin and war cleric (maybe MCing into fighter). I ended up picking cleric for cantrips, bigger spell list, more robust healing, and because Spiritual Weapon sounds (at least on description) like a great source of extra damage. I'm not high enough to start using it yet. Of course it's only for one minute at a time and you could potentially want to use other bonus actions during that minute, but up to 10 rounds of extra scaling damage seemed pretty nice to me.
On a tangential note, if I decide to dip into fighter, it seems like I should either take only one level (for fighting style) or go in for 6 levels since you lose the cleric lvl 19 ASI by going 2 or more, and with 6 I'd get action surge, battle master maneuvers, extra attack, and regain the ASI. That's of course at the cost of lvl 8 and 9 spells. Thoughts there?
It is devotion to spreading the word - a cleric is a priest - they are the ones to spread the word, minister to the faithful, decide on and interpret the word of the gods. The Paladins are the militia arm - the faith militant - yes they have faith but are not about spreading it they go where pointed at by the clerics. Yes they may lead small services but generally to other Paladins - a cleric goes into the badlands to spread the word, they bring a Paladin as back up....
I've literally never seen anyone that thinks of it in these terms before now.
First off: Clerics <> priests (it even says so in the Cleric in the PHB). Clerics are the physical embodiment of their deity's will. They are literally their deity's magical enforcers; using the powers granted to them by the gods to protect or destroy as needed. They aren't out spreading the word like some acolyte in the street. They are out serving their deity's will in their everyday actions. Inspiring by doing, not by teaching. Sure, the guy preaching at the local temple MIGHT be a cleric, but that is in no way the norm. Hell, Clerics don't have to interpret the word of their gods. They can literally cast a spell to ASK their gods whatever they need to know.
A Paladin, on the other hand, has always been more about justice and goodness than about serving a deity or a church. They certainly aren't errand boys for clerics to be pointed to a job like some sort of mercenary. They serve a greater purpose and are given their powers because of that servitude. They are holy knights; the Medieval equivalent to the Japanese Samurai. Their code and honor is the most important thing to them, and to disrespect that code (or Oath in 5e) is to disgrace themselves. Granted, Paladins CAN (and often do) choose to serve a deity or church, but do so only because they see it as a means to an end.
Now, for the OP: In my opinion, Cleric is basically a melee spellcaster while Paladin is a spellcasting warrior. A cleric CAN fight, but a Paladin will always be a better fighter. A Paladin CAN cast spells, but the Cleric is always going to be a better spellcaster.
If we're going by roles; the Cleric is the best healer in the game (except MAYBE a Lore Bard who uses Magical Secrets for healing spells from cleric and paladin). Meanwhile, the paladin is probably the best tank in the game (and a Vengeance Paladin can do some of the highest damage bursts in the game). A cleric CAN be built to be extra tanky and a Paladin CAN be built to be extra healy, but neither is going to be as good as the other when they are focused on what they do best.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Welcome to the world of people with different opinions to you, we are never going to agree please get back to me when you can read the PHB and decide for yourself. Happy gaming.
Welcome to the world of people with different opinions to you, we are never going to agree please get back to me when you can read the PHB and decide for yourself. Happy gaming.
I mean, there's having an opinion and then there's having a factual argument about your opinion using source material.
Your opinion seems to be based on your campaign setting. Which is all well and good for you, but not exactly what the topic was about.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
First line says debate...so I debated. Source material is just that a source. Pathfinder is a very rigid system with lots of rules that people get endlessly obsessed over interpreting... not my idea of fun. 5th ed is excellent some basic rules and your imagination and the world is yours. My opinion (factual or otherwise hard to decide in a made up world) is equally valid. I added my bit to the debate for the flavour.
I do not like the max/mining/ best build threads because they seem to miss the point of the role playing aspect of the game but I leave those threads alone because they are not for me. I have played for many (many) years and still like to hear other's ideas and view's. The book is not the not the absolute law on everything you and your players are, play and enjoy your game do not expect everyone else too abide by your views and options. Offer them up for others to take and run with as they decide it's their game too....
I will preface this by saying I honestly do not have a great deal of actual play experience, but do have some experience with 5e source material.
Mechanically I believe a cleric can function as a paladin if they so choose. By focusing on spells that buff your allies and heal you get the gist of their spells/abilities. I’d say the other major mechanical difference is the divine smite ability. You could get a similar effect by using inflict wounds and asking the DM to change damage from necrotic to radiant. To be better with weapons you could also take two or three levels in fighter.
Thematically it is also possible. While you don't necessarily have to be lawful good as a paladin most of the sacred oaths involve beating back evil or despair and nothing in cleric would prevent you from trying to live that way unless your deity was opposed. To me the difference seems to come from where their power is drawn. A cleric is granted directly by their deity while a paladin draws theirs from adherence to their oath.
I'm liking how distinct Paladins are becoming compared to Clerics. Clerics are distinctly casters while Paladins, despite keeping their magical flavor, have a specific niche in the world of martials. Likewise, keying off Charisma opens up a lot of otherwise different multiclass combinations, like Sorcerer, Rogue, and Warlock. The Cleric's new pal becomes the Monk which is rather fitting now that the Paladin has new friends.
Does cleric have patron deities like the paladins?
In 5e, Paladins no longer require a deity. They just need a cause or take a divine "Oath". Clerics traditionally follow some sort of deity and are "given" power for their faith.
I've always wanted to know what others thought of this debate. Are clerics and paladins similar in D&D? Can a cleric play as a paladin if given access to the paladin spell list?
Early levels they can be quite similar if you play a war cleric as they both have high AC, hit ok, sword and board and have radiant damage.
But I feel they differ as they get more levels as the Paladin will carry on hitting harder where a War Cleric tends to nearly solely use spells (Sacred Flame) from about lvl5. Paladin has his wrathful smite or what ever it is called to do extra damage when they hit.
Even with Paladin spells I dont think a Cleric would be as good at hitting but a good tank or dmg sponge like a paladin
The theme is similar. Holy magic. Smacking evil. (Unless you're a Cleric of an evil deity, of course.)
If you like story and RP, then you can already play a Cleric as a righteous, oath-bound crusader. But mechanically Hartke is right, a Cleric will lean more and more toward spells without the melee capability the Paladin class has.
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My homebrew: [Subclasses] [Races] [Feats] [Discussion Thread]
The Tempest Cleric has a Smite-like feature.
Agreed, my War Cleric is similar to our Paladin as in both detest undead and people that use that kind of magic, to the point where we both turn into the Hulk upon seeing undead, zombies etc lol We both worship same god so both pursue the same goals in a way
Yea! A lot of the cleric domains gain some sort of damage bonus at level 8 for their weapon attacks. This helps the keep competitive in melee (or ranged!).
It is devotion to spreading the word - a cleric is a priest - they are the ones to spread the word, minister to the faithful, decide on and interpret the word of the gods. The Paladins are the militia arm - the faith militant - yes they have faith but are not about spreading it they go where pointed at by the clerics. Yes they may lead small services but generally to other Paladins - a cleric goes into the badlands to spread the word, they bring a Paladin as back up....
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe....
I'd not say "No" to your question, but one big difference to think about is that the Cleric is a Wisdom class, and the Paladin is Charisma based. This spins off a lot of mechanical and role-play differences. Mechanically the Paladin will be generally better at social skills, more of a talker and leader. The Cleric will have better insight, perception, medicine, even survival and be more of thoughtful problem solver. Of course individual builds can run counter to all this, but it is a core difference in the two classes. Think about how Hollywood might cast a role for 'the most charismatic' holy warrior, versus 'the wisest' holy warrior. I think those would tend to be very different, but both interesting, characters!
How well does Spiritual Weapon work out in actual play? I've just started a new campaign (only second we've ever done), and the group wanted something with high AC to help absorb hits, so I was picking between paladin and war cleric (maybe MCing into fighter). I ended up picking cleric for cantrips, bigger spell list, more robust healing, and because Spiritual Weapon sounds (at least on description) like a great source of extra damage. I'm not high enough to start using it yet. Of course it's only for one minute at a time and you could potentially want to use other bonus actions during that minute, but up to 10 rounds of extra scaling damage seemed pretty nice to me.
On a tangential note, if I decide to dip into fighter, it seems like I should either take only one level (for fighting style) or go in for 6 levels since you lose the cleric lvl 19 ASI by going 2 or more, and with 6 I'd get action surge, battle master maneuvers, extra attack, and regain the ASI. That's of course at the cost of lvl 8 and 9 spells. Thoughts there?
First off: Clerics <> priests (it even says so in the Cleric in the PHB). Clerics are the physical embodiment of their deity's will. They are literally their deity's magical enforcers; using the powers granted to them by the gods to protect or destroy as needed. They aren't out spreading the word like some acolyte in the street. They are out serving their deity's will in their everyday actions. Inspiring by doing, not by teaching. Sure, the guy preaching at the local temple MIGHT be a cleric, but that is in no way the norm. Hell, Clerics don't have to interpret the word of their gods. They can literally cast a spell to ASK their gods whatever they need to know.
A Paladin, on the other hand, has always been more about justice and goodness than about serving a deity or a church. They certainly aren't errand boys for clerics to be pointed to a job like some sort of mercenary. They serve a greater purpose and are given their powers because of that servitude. They are holy knights; the Medieval equivalent to the Japanese Samurai. Their code and honor is the most important thing to them, and to disrespect that code (or Oath in 5e) is to disgrace themselves. Granted, Paladins CAN (and often do) choose to serve a deity or church, but do so only because they see it as a means to an end.
In my opinion, Cleric is basically a melee spellcaster while Paladin is a spellcasting warrior. A cleric CAN fight, but a Paladin will always be a better fighter. A Paladin CAN cast spells, but the Cleric is always going to be a better spellcaster.
If we're going by roles; the Cleric is the best healer in the game (except MAYBE a Lore Bard who uses Magical Secrets for healing spells from cleric and paladin). Meanwhile, the paladin is probably the best tank in the game (and a Vengeance Paladin can do some of the highest damage bursts in the game). A cleric CAN be built to be extra tanky and a Paladin CAN be built to be extra healy, but neither is going to be as good as the other when they are focused on what they do best.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Welcome to the world of people with different opinions to you, we are never going to agree please get back to me when you can read the PHB and decide for yourself. Happy gaming.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe....
Your opinion seems to be based on your campaign setting. Which is all well and good for you, but not exactly what the topic was about.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
First line says debate...so I debated. Source material is just that a source. Pathfinder is a very rigid system with lots of rules that people get endlessly obsessed over interpreting... not my idea of fun. 5th ed is excellent some basic rules and your imagination and the world is yours. My opinion (factual or otherwise hard to decide in a made up world) is equally valid. I added my bit to the debate for the flavour.
I do not like the max/mining/ best build threads because they seem to miss the point of the role playing aspect of the game but I leave those threads alone because they are not for me. I have played for many (many) years and still like to hear other's ideas and view's. The book is not the not the absolute law on everything you and your players are, play and enjoy your game do not expect everyone else too abide by your views and options. Offer them up for others to take and run with as they decide it's their game too....
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe....
I will preface this by saying I honestly do not have a great deal of actual play experience, but do have some experience with 5e source material.
Mechanically I believe a cleric can function as a paladin if they so choose. By focusing on spells that buff your allies and heal you get the gist of their spells/abilities. I’d say the other major mechanical difference is the divine smite ability. You could get a similar effect by using inflict wounds and asking the DM to change damage from necrotic to radiant. To be better with weapons you could also take two or three levels in fighter.
Thematically it is also possible. While you don't necessarily have to be lawful good as a paladin most of the sacred oaths involve beating back evil or despair and nothing in cleric would prevent you from trying to live that way unless your deity was opposed. To me the difference seems to come from where their power is drawn. A cleric is granted directly by their deity while a paladin draws theirs from adherence to their oath.
I'm liking how distinct Paladins are becoming compared to Clerics. Clerics are distinctly casters while Paladins, despite keeping their magical flavor, have a specific niche in the world of martials. Likewise, keying off Charisma opens up a lot of otherwise different multiclass combinations, like Sorcerer, Rogue, and Warlock. The Cleric's new pal becomes the Monk which is rather fitting now that the Paladin has new friends.
(Failed watching toddler check. Delete Tool does not work...now I need to post in Bugs thread.)
Does cleric have patron deities like the paladins?
Well... multiclass or War domain.
i like linguistics and, well, d&d, obviously. this bio hadn't been updated for 3 years so i figured i'd do that.