So I am currently playing a Knowledge Cleric 9/Divination Wizard 3 (just joined a group at 12th level) and I initially choose this combination so I could still have the ability to cast 9th level spells (once I hit 20th level).
After playing my PC a bit I started to do some reading of 9th level cleric spells. So there are only four (4) in the entire game! The spells are Astral Projection, Gate, Mass Heal, and True Resurrection. Three of these spells have some hefty material component costs. So it started me to wonder...wouldn't I be better off with two more levels of Wizard then those levels of Cleric? As a Cleric 15/Wizard 5 I would still have a 9th level spell slot. I would still be able to do plenty with that slot. Sure I might not be casting Meteor Swarm but I could do a pretty hefty 14d6 Fireball with a 9th level slot. Or a heal for 7d8+WIS with Mass Cure Wounds.
Really the only spell which gives me pause is Mass Heal. Is that one 9th level spell worth it? Maybe I could just sport a scroll with Mass Heal instead?
9th-level cleric spells are not the reason you want to hit cleric level 17. Your 17th-level domain feature is the reason you want to hit cleric level 17.
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At 12th level, you won't be able to cast 9th level spells at all, regardless of what levels you have in cleric and wizard. Furthermore, material costs are generally a moot point once you get to the level where you can actually cast those spells (at 17th level, when most characters get access to their highest spell slots, individual monster treasure is anywhere from 5000 to 10000 gold, and treasure hoards are much higher). These spells are also extremely potent, and allow your character to perform actions others couldn't possibly attempt. True Resurrection in particular is expensive precisely because it is so powerful. Not only does it not need a body to work, it removes any negative effects that could have been attached at time of death, has no drawbacks to its use, and restores a person to full vitality. Astral Projection and Gate are more for extraplanar movement, but both have their own quirks, and are extremely potent tools. If it helps, look at the lesser versions of the spell and compare them to the 9th level version. Mass Cure Wounds at 9th level, with a WIS mod of +5, can heal 6 creatures 61 points. Mass Heal can 700 points total, divided up among as many creatures you want at double the range of Mass Cure Wounds. All of this aside, you are correct that there is not quite as many spells for clerics at high level as for the more arcane focused classes, so if you want to put more levels into wizard, then you will definitely gain a bit more flexibility in regards to offensive options.
9th-level cleric spells are not the reason you want to hit cleric level 17. Your 17th-level domain feature is the reason you want to hit cleric level 17.
Good point but the knowledge domain ability at 17th is kinda weak. It allows a PC to read objects or areas and see into the past week...not too pivotal. Especially at that level. I'd say it really depends on the type of campaign you are playing in whether it would even ever come into play.
On the other hand, increasing Wizard to 5th would give me access to Counterspell. That spell alone I would happily trade out for object reading.
At 12th level, you won't be able to cast 9th level spells at all, regardless of what levels you have in cleric and wizard.
Well, I meant that to mean that I would still have access to 9th level spells once I hit max level (as a 17th level cleric and 3rd level wizard). Rereading my OP I can see the confusion.
Furthermore, material costs are generally a moot point once you get to the level where you can actually cast those spells (at 17th level, when most characters get access to their highest spell slots, individual monster treasure is anywhere from 5000 to 10000 gold, and treasure hoards are much higher).
I disagree with this statement. I've never played in a game where opponents burst into a shower of gp once defeated but I have played in high level campaigns where you spend a good portion of your wealth purchasing better magic items and fortifying a home base. Even if a DM keeps up with the gp scale for end game encounters I would be hard pressed to keep a stash of gold to use these 9th level cleric spells. Astral Projection has a cost between 1100gp through 9900gp, Gate runs 5000gp a cast, and True Resurrection is a massive 25000gp. All 3 of these spells are so situational that I could just keep a scroll handy and use my portent ability (divination school) to make sure I could cast them in that one time of need.
For me this really focuses on Mass Heal. This is the one 9th level cleric spell I feel that you would always prepare if you had access to it. So the decision is will the party need this specific spell when we hit cap level? Or can we live without it?
I'm thinking most campaigns would be fine without 9th level cleric spells.
So since this came up I thought I would review all the 9th level spells. Looks like cleric and druid are at the bottom of the heap with four 9th level spells. Bard and warlock are next with six spells available. Then Sorcerer with seven. And, of course, wizard leds the pack with fifteen 9th level spells.
What's more embarrassing is the bard gets Power Word Heal while the cleric does not. A 18th level bard can already snatch spells like Wish or Time Stop using their magical secrets feature but bards also have access to one of the most powerful healing spells in the game. If any class should have only four available 9th level spells it should be the bard. It really seems like the cleric (maybe the druid too) is loosing out.
I think I may try to talk my DM into adding a couple of spells to the cleric list for 9th level. Anyone have any suggestions as to what to add? I looked over the homebrew 9th level spells and a few of them are interesting. If I don't come up with a homebrew spell then I think Foresight and Power Word Heal are likely additions to the cleric list.
Disclaimer: I have only ever ran or played in 15th plus level games using 2nd and 3.5 editions. I am not sure how balance is at those levels with 5E but I'm happy to find out.
Not sure but a Cleric gains access to all those level spells, I know a wizard has to go buy,study before they get more spells. Is that the same for other classes?
Clerics might just get less because they are powerful and you get them off the bat where other classes can only choose one or have to go buy or study in game time to get them.
Not sure but a Cleric gains access to all those level spells, I know a wizard has to go buy,study before they get more spells. Is that the same for other classes?
Clerics might just get less because they are powerful and you get them off the bat where other classes can only choose one or have to go buy or study in game time to get them.
Wizards only need to buy/study spells they add outside of levelling up. When they level up they get 2 spells of their choice from the Wizard spell list added to their spellbook instantly and for free. When you reach level 17, for example, a Wizard can add 2 level 9 spells instantly and for free. And another 2 at level 18 and another 2 at level 19 and another 2 at level 20. It would be fruitless to get so many level 9 spells because you can only cast 1 per day.
However, Clerics have powerful features and a lot of options - a cleric of any domain can switch between melee fighting to range casting and can even fight and cast at same time due to so many bonus spells
It would be unwise to think "cleric = healer". They are not "the healer class" in 5th Edition. They can do a lot of healing, but as a class they can focus entirely on damage if the wanted or utility. They have considerable versatility. For this reason their level 9 options are limited.
For example, at end level all Clerics get to auto-succeed at Divine Intervention which is like a limited Wish spell you can cast once per week for free.
Bards can only change out their spells when they level up, so when you get to those higher levels, you have to pick really carefully about what all you might need until your next level. Or what you want to keep 'forever' at level 20.
However, Clerics have powerful features and a lot of options - a cleric of any domain can switch between melee fighting to range casting and can even fight and cast at same time due to so many bonus spells
Clerics do have some powerful features but it's pretty hard for them to switch between a fighting role and a caster role. It's really dependent on magic items and general build. My character is built more like a wizard so I have a high wisdom and intelligence. I am definitely regulated to support as there is not much I can do in melee with my +1 mace. I also created a monk/cleric for the same campaign who was much more of a melee fighter (unfortunately he got his soul trapped by a unlucky draw for a Deck of Many Things). Both characters had different stats and played very differently.
For example, at end level all Clerics get to auto-succeed at Divine Intervention which is like a limited Wish spell you can cast once per week for free.
A good point. Improved Divine Intervention might be just good enough to go all 20 levels as cleric. Too late for this character but something to think about regarding the next one. The problem I have with this feature is how dependent it is on the DM. With some DM's it might be a good replacement for the lack of 9th level spells. With others...not so much.
Bards can only change out their spells when they level up, so when you get to those higher levels, you have to pick really carefully about what all you might need until your next level. Or what you want to keep 'forever' at level 20.
Not sure that this is that big a disadvantage. Bard's get an extra spell known at 17th and 18th levels plus two spells thru magical secrets at 18th. A bard could easily pick two or three 9th level spells and they would all be more useful than the cleric's very limited options at that level. Personally, I feel that the cleric 9th level spells are more oversight than anything. D&D rarely gets played at these upper levels so I don't think the designers spent a ton of time on it.
Clerics do have some powerful features but it's pretty hard for them to switch between a fighting role and a caster role. It's really dependent on magic items and general build. My character is built more like a wizard so I have a high wisdom and intelligence. I am definitely regulated to support as there is not much I can do in melee with my +1 mace. I also created a monk/cleric for the same campaign who was much more of a melee fighter (unfortunately he got his soul trapped by a unlucky draw for a Deck of Many Things). Both characters had different stats and played very differently.
It does depend on build and options but you can say that about most classes and such. My experience with Clerics is limited to one character I play, one I made and have not played and some I read about. My character is strictly cleric, no multiclass, 9th level and the only magic items are a bag of holding and a pearl of power. Yet, she easily switches between melee and ranged. I geared her more for range but she's actually most powerful in melee. I can get the AC up to 17 but could, if wanted, push to 19 with a shield and 21 with shield of faith spell. Base damage output per round is 1d6+1d8+4 which is an average of 11 damage on attack. Not the best, but hey this is all basic and is the same either up close or at range. Typically I use the holy weapon spell to bump this to 1d6+3d8+4 or 19. If I can get an enemy under Hold Person spell I can just go in and Inflict Wounds 4th level for 12d10 damage (because against people paralysed by Hold Person if you land a hit, which is made with advantage, it's an autocrit) which is average 60 damage and I can bump this with a channel divinity to 83 damage. Not counting the Spiritual Weapon, also melee, which I usually always throw up in a fight using a 2nd level slot. Against a paralysed target that's advantage and auto-crit for 2d8+5 which is average 13. That's 96 average damage in one round and if they fail to break hold person then why not do it again? Oh, I still have a 4th level slot and they still did not break the hold so all again... When they do break the hold use other 2nd level and 3rd level slots to add again. Even without the spells an attack every turn from a shortsword or hand crossbow is helpful.
My character is a variant human death cleric focusing in Dexterity and Wisdom and for the variant human bonus feat I chose Magic Initiate Sorcerer to get once per day Mage Armour for an AC of 13 + Dex when not wearing armour which works out superior to any medium armour. The Dex adds to skills, AC, Initiative and finesse weapons. As a Death cleric I get proficiency with all weapons. The death cleric's channel divinity adds to any melee attack and Divine Strike lets you add 1d8 to weapon damage. The Holy Weapon 5th level spell lets you add 2d8 to weapons to wear the opponent down and then you can switch your concentration to Hold Person and burn those 4th level slots for Inflict Wounds bumped by channel divinity and using your bonus action on spiritual weapon attacks. It's an effective combo. Especially when your entourage of zombies are slamming the opponent as well because as a death cleric with always-prepped Animate Dead you should have zombies.
Don't like death cleric? How about life domain with heavy armour proficiency or maybe war domain with martial weapon proficiency, heavy armour proficiency, ability to add +10 bonus to attacks, 1d8 per attack extra damage on weapon attacks and eventually resistances. Can easily go melee or ranged as needed.
Sure the lack of Extra Attack is severely hampering your damage output but you do get to dish out damage and can make a cleric that is quite adaptable to combat and switching from ranged/melee easily. Unlike other spellcasters a cleric is perfectly capable of going direct into the fray. If you combine them right your spells can more than make up for the lack of extra attack. If you make the right choices having a cleric than is capable of melee, ranged and also support is certainly achievable and in this regard is probably one of the most readily combat-adaptive classes. You chose a domain that is not geared for combat and so in a combat situation you will be a bit less effective than the other combat-focused domains. Even so, you do have incredible versatility and this potential went into deciding what spells you could do.
A good point. Improved Divine Intervention might be just good enough to go all 20 levels as cleric. Too late for this character but something to think about regarding the next one. The problem I have with this feature is how dependent it is on the DM. With some DM's it might be a good replacement for the lack of 9th level spells. With others...not so much.
I do agree with you and mileage may vary by DM but Divine Intervention does say “The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate.” You can work with the DM and consider it similar to wish in that it replicates a spell at a level you could have cast. At auto-success it means the DM really should always be doing something to help you out, after all you only get this once every seven days. If the DM is wasting this feature on something small talk to them because they're either ignorant of the feature intention or being a dick. This feature is granted once per week which should indicate the help must be darn good.
You also need to realise that the availability of things like 9th level spells must take into account what you can do with those slots with lower level spells. Unlike Sorcs and Wizards who have no real decent melee attacks they can combine for 9th level spell slots the Cleric can use a Hold Person and use the melee spell Inflict Wounds. This is an advantage-to-hit attack that, being melee, is auto-crit on success so for 9th level slot would be 22d10 damage. Now consider Spiritual Weapon, a variety of other bonus action spells, channel divinities, and so on... This is why the options are limited, there is no oversight. They also have to consider multiclassing into account.
The spells themselves have such costs because you can otherwise abuse them. Astral Projection is safe way to explore other realms and you can stay in the astral sea as long as you want. You could, for example, use Astral Projection, find a portal to a target realm, camp near it, recover your 9th level spell slot then move on to appear in the realm pulling to it your original bodies and you therefore arrive having basically travelled to another dimension with all your spell slots and hit points intact. And the material cost is 1100gp per creature, which is actually not that much. A single fight against an adult or ancient dragon can easily fund this for your entire party, for example. And Gate is even better. You choose the location and you open a gate to it and you can even make it wide enough to fit a small army through or even a ship. Or you can use this to summon any creature to you that was on another plane. This is great if summoning an enemy into a trap. The 5,000 gp component is small potatoes at this level and it's completely reusable. It's something you pay only once and then have it always, not per cast. True Resurrection is costly, but considering it basically means you can bring back to life anyone you want who died within the last 2 centuries, don't even need a body. It's worth the price tag. Mass Heal is amazing. 700 hit points of healing to divvy up as you want to any one you want within 60 feet range? “Oh, four team mates just dropped unconscious, darn, well I use Mass Heal and now they're all up and nearly full health again”. This is a battle-changer and no material cost involved.
I personally feel that all things considered the spell options for level 9 is balanced and sufficient in my opinion. Admittedly, my experience in clerics has been limited but from I've played so far and read up on it's definitely one of those classes that is best to not multiclass in Just my two pence for what it is worth.
It does depend on build and options but you can say that about most classes and such. My experience with Clerics is limited to one character I play, one I made and have not played and some I read about. My character is strictly cleric, no multiclass, 9th level and the only magic items are a bag of holding and a pearl of power. Yet, she easily switches between melee and ranged. I geared her more for range but she's actually most powerful in melee. I can get the AC up to 17 but could, if wanted, push to 19 with a shield and 21 with shield of faith spell. Base damage output per round is 1d6+1d8+4 which is an average of 11 damage on attack. Not the best, but hey this is all basic and is the same either up close or at range. Typically I use the holy weapon spell to bump this to 1d6+3d8+4 or 19. If I can get an enemy under Hold Person spell I can just go in and Inflict Wounds 4th level for 12d10 damage (because against people paralysed by Hold Person if you land a hit, which is made with advantage, it's an autocrit) which is average 60 damage and I can bump this with a channel divinity to 83 damage. Not counting the Spiritual Weapon, also melee, which I usually always throw up in a fight using a 2nd level slot. Against a paralysed target that's advantage and auto-crit for 2d8+5 which is average 13. That's 96 average damage in one round and if they fail to break hold person then why not do it again? Oh, I still have a 4th level slot and they still did not break the hold so all again... When they do break the hold use other 2nd level and 3rd level slots to add again. Even without the spells an attack every turn from a shortsword or hand crossbow is helpful.
Ok, so this could be a really interesting conversation about builds but ultimately I don't see anything uber about the cleric that couldn't be matched by another class to a greater or lesser degree. A wizard or sorcerer could simply cast 2 fireballs instead of hold person/inflict wounds and lay waste to the whole battlefield. The barbarian, fighter, monk, paladin and ranger would get 4 attacks in the time it takes for that combo plus all their other special abilities. Meanwhile, the rogue could very likely get two sneak attacks. Even better is when the cleric holds person while the rest of the party goes to town. My party recently taught our DM a hard lesson regarding having the BBEG show up all by himself. I think that 5E is by far the most balanced edition of D&D and there is really only small differences between classes. Especially in the sweet spot levels of 8th thru 12th.
The spells themselves have such costs because you can otherwise abuse them. Astral Projection is safe way to explore other realms and you can stay in the astral sea as long as you want. You could, for example, use Astral Projection, find a portal to a target realm, camp near it, recover your 9th level spell slot then move on to appear in the realm pulling to it your original bodies and you therefore arrive having basically travelled to another dimension with all your spell slots and hit points intact. And the material cost is 1100gp per creature, which is actually not that much. A single fight against an adult or ancient dragon can easily fund this for your entire party, for example. And Gate is even better. You choose the location and you open a gate to it and you can even make it wide enough to fit a small army through or even a ship. Or you can use this to summon any creature to you that was on another plane. This is great if summoning an enemy into a trap. The 5,000 gp component is small potatoes at this level and it's completely reusable. It's something you pay only once and then have it always, not per cast. True Resurrection is costly, but considering it basically means you can bring back to life anyone you want who died within the last 2 centuries, don't even need a body. It's worth the price tag. Mass Heal is amazing. 700 hit points of healing to divvy up as you want to any one you want within 60 feet range? “Oh, four team mates just dropped unconscious, darn, well I use Mass Heal and now they're all up and nearly full health again”. This is a battle-changer and no material cost involved.
I personally feel that all things considered the spell options for level 9 is balanced and sufficient in my opinion. Admittedly, my experience in clerics has been limited but from I've played so far and read up on it's definitely one of those classes that is best to not multiclass in Just my two pence for what it is worth.
Not sure how abuseable Astral Projection is. This is a spell that only comes into play if the party has a need to visit another plane. Something that could be accomplished with Plane Shift or through DM fiat if the campaign requires the travel. In addition, the party bard, warlock or wizard could also cast it.
Gate could be a potential game changer depending on what comes through but that depends on what the DM is willing to allow. And again the traveling to another plane can be handled with 250gp and Plane Shift. AND the party wizard could cast this if it was really needed.
True Resurrection is indeed a mighty spell but very situational. I can only think of a few things (disintegrate) which destroy the body along with killing the character. For the vast amount of PC deaths Raise Dead and Resurrection are more than adequate.
Mass Heal is the key 9th level cleric spell. Possibly the best healing spell in the game and if a person were to play a 17th plus level cleric it would most certainly be prepared. As you have previously pointed out a cleric is not always the healer (or only healer) and isn't always going to burn his 9th level spell on a heal.
So far in this thread I feel the major reasons to go to 17th -20th level cleric have less to due with the 9th level spell selection and more to do with the 17th level domain ability and the capstone 20th level ability of Improved Divine Intervention. I still think that the cleric 9th level spell list is weak (8th level too but that's another topic) but I see more reasons to play a cleric 1st-20th.
For Gate your hand-waive reasons are by comparing it to Plane Shift. So, some things to consider:
~ A 5k diamond is easier to get than a fork of any cost specifically attuned to a different dimension. With Plane Shift you need to get a fork for each plane you want to go to. The spell itself does not grant you a fork to any plane not even to Material Plane. So, if you do manage to get a fork magically attuned to the Elemental Plane of Fire great you can now just go there. However, unless you also obtained such a fork for the Material Plane you can't use this spell to return home. The diamond for Gate is just a diamond. No attunements and it goes anywhere you want. Plane Shift is not specific you give location in general terms so you can say "City of Brass of the Elemental Plane of Fire" and the spell will take you to it and that's as specific you can be. With Gate you can say "Mr Grant's basement on the street of coals in the City of Brass along on the wall that faces those ghastly stairs" and that's precisely where the portal goes to.
~ Plane Shift is just you and a few creatures you touch at the time of casting. Bamf, there. With Gate you create a portal 20 feet wide for 1 minute. With that you could easily transport a couple hundred people rushing through. Or even a small ship. So this is amazing if you're in a disastrous situation where many people are in danger - thanks to Gate you can save them all but with Plane Shift you will have to let people die.
~ The big bad enemy is here. Oh crap it's monsterous. The room is small, there's no escape. The DM says this monsterous undead behemoth is going... Wait did they say Undead? Oh fantastic. Thanks to Gate you just instantly win. Cast Gate above it to the Sea of Tranquility or whatever it's called - where there's infinite sea of holy water. Watch in glee as the behemoth receives several hundred radiant damage per second.
And all for a one-time investment of 5k diamond you probably could have gotten sick of finding by level 12 unless your DM is extremely stingy.
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Astral Projection is again good for planar travel and in that is weaker than Gate. However, it's slower you could take a nice easy long rest in between so when you arrive at the new plane you're full health and have all your spells including your 9th which you may have chosen to swap out for a different one like Mass Heal. It's also a nice way to travel the Astral Sea knowing you're safe no matter what happens as the things that cut that silver cord are extremely few. Beyond that, you need not worry as at worst you just wake up in your body in the material world. Also, you could stay in the Astral Sea as long as you want - while there your body cannot age, starve or die of thirst. So, hide your body somewhere, maybe even underwater or something, and go spend as long as you want there. It's like a vacation. It's a great RP opportunity. You get to go explore a whole new realm full of wonder and mystery and do so while staying safe and sound. How is that not fun?
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-DM: "So, Steve's character, Bob, just got eaten whole." -Steve: "Oh no, Dave, have your character, Jim bring me back. He's a Cleric." -Dave:" Sure, and I have the component. I ca-" -DM: "There's no body, it's gone. -"Steve + Dave: "****."
Now replace "eaten whole" with: disintegrated, burnt to ash, reduced to blood smear (blood =/= body), ground to paste (paste =/= body), slipped into sphere of annhilation, turned to goop, fallen into lava, fallen into acid... Oh the many ways that resurrection would not work but true resurrection could. Now apply the complications of curses and other things.. It would be good to have true resurrection in the back pocket should it ever be needed.
Perhaps you face a situation where this hero of lore who has been dead for 150 years is the only one who knows the way to defeat some big bad evil it once defeated and has now come back. So you cast speak with dead and zone of truth for good measure and it turns out only this hero can do it. True Res him then!
Sure, it is situational but the situations where it is needed do occur and the risks (like disintegrate, lava) of such situations arising will be ever increasing. Nothing is more dismaying than realising you could have true-res your ally who just failed a roll and has now melted into nothing in a river of lava if you had just taken 3 levels of multiclass instead of the 4 denying yourself from ever getting access to 9th level spells. You, and that player, will know they have to roll a new character because you didn't want 9th level cleric spells thinking them not worth it. Well it was worth it to Bob but now Bob's gone forever!
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My point about clerics in combat is not about how they are in such compared to other classes. The reason why clerics get less higher end spells is because of the versaility clerics have from earlier spells class features and domain features. Sure, a fighter can deal damage more effectively but fighters generally lack versatility. They hit things hard and that's it. They will never have a 9th level spell, not even eldritch knight. A cleric however gets to use weapons, armour multiple class features, multiple domain features and are full casters. That is more categories and boxes ticked than any other class. That is why the selection is bit weaker compared to other spellcasting classes. Compared to what you also get as a Cleric and that at 17th level you get a domain feature, 18th you get extra use of Channel Divinity per short rest, 19th you get an ASI and 20th you get auto-success on Divine Intervention which is arguably one of the most powerful non-spell features (very arguable, but certainly up there). You also get, at 20th level, a second 7th level spell slot too.
I think, given what you also get, the 9th level spells are worth it in my opinion. It adds to the package of high-level cleric and for me is enough of a reason to not multiclass. Of course it will also depend on you, the player, and the campaign.
Ultimately only you can decide if you find it worth it, I'm just here to explain why I do because I know with my character, playstyle, and campaign it would be badass and fun.
Ultimately only you can decide if you find it worth it, I'm just here to explain why I do because I know with my character, playstyle, and campaign it would be badass and fun.
I am beginning to agree that playing a cleric all the way to 20th level would indeed be badass and fun. Still think you'd be jealous of your fellow spell casters more badass 9th level spells.
For Gate your hand-waive reasons are by comparing it to Plane Shift. So, some things to consider:
~ A 5k diamond is easier to get than a fork of any cost specifically attuned to a different dimension. With Plane Shift you need to get a fork for each plane you want to go to. The spell itself does not grant you a fork to any plane not even to Material Plane. So, if you do manage to get a fork magically attuned to the Elemental Plane of Fire great you can now just go there. However, unless you also obtained such a fork for the Material Plane you can't use this spell to return home. The diamond for Gate is just a diamond. No attunements and it goes anywhere you want. Plane Shift is not specific you give location in general terms so you can say "City of Brass of the Elemental Plane of Fire" and the spell will take you to it and that's as specific you can be. With Gate you can say "Mr Grant's basement on the street of coals in the City of Brass along on the wall that faces those ghastly stairs" and that's precisely where the portal goes to.
~ Plane Shift is just you and a few creatures you touch at the time of casting. Bamf, there. With Gate you create a portal 20 feet wide for 1 minute. With that you could easily transport a couple hundred people rushing through. Or even a small ship. So this is amazing if you're in a disastrous situation where many people are in danger - thanks to Gate you can save them all but with Plane Shift you will have to let people die.
~ The big bad enemy is here. Oh crap it's monsterous. The room is small, there's no escape. The DM says this monsterous undead behemoth is going... Wait did they say Undead? Oh fantastic. Thanks to Gate you just instantly win. Cast Gate above it to the Sea of Tranquility or whatever it's called - where there's infinite sea of holy water. Watch in glee as the behemoth receives several hundred radiant damage per second.
And all for a one-time investment of 5k diamond you probably could have gotten sick of finding by level 12 unless your DM is extremely stingy.
Eh, not so sure Gate would allow atmospheric conditions to pass through. I wouldn't allow it and I doubt my DM would either. If so you could win almost any encounter by Gating lava on the baddies heads.
To my mind a more important feature of Gate is the ability to call forth a planer being. I'd expect a high level cleric to prepare for this by RP'ing and getting to know a servant of their deity. Possibly a Planetar or Solar. If a DM would let you use Gate to dependably summon a CR 16 or higher creature it might just be worth keeping Gate handy. IF the DM would be open to it. And the bad guys can use this tactic as well.
The tuning forks for Plane Shift have a specified cost - 250gp. Sure you have to do your research and gather the forks for the planes you want to visit but how many planes are you planning on traveling to? One for the material plane, one for Sigil and one for your deities home plane? Maybe a few others? And UNLIKE Gate you can use Plane Shift to force an opponent to another plane (keep that Plane of Fire tuning fork handy).
Sure you can use Gate to run an army to another plane but how often are you expecting to do this? You planning on invading a plane with a undead army? And how often are you going to need to arrive at just the perfect spot? Any enemy that would be worth doing this to would have a countermeasure set up.
Astral Projection is again good for planar travel and in that is weaker than Gate. However, it's slower you could take a nice easy long rest in between so when you arrive at the new plane you're full health and have all your spells including your 9th which you may have chosen to swap out for a different one like Mass Heal. It's also a nice way to travel the Astral Sea knowing you're safe no matter what happens as the things that cut that silver cord are extremely few. Beyond that, you need not worry as at worst you just wake up in your body in the material world. Also, you could stay in the Astral Sea as long as you want - while there your body cannot age, starve or die of thirst. So, hide your body somewhere, maybe even underwater or something, and go spend as long as you want there. It's like a vacation. It's a great RP opportunity. You get to go explore a whole new realm full of wonder and mystery and do so while staying safe and sound. How is that not fun?
Astral Projection is a joke. Transport yourself and 8 hapless individuals to the Astral plane where each of you now has a instant kill button on your back. Don't kid yourself. Your DM will make sure you encounter a few creatures capable of cutting a silver cord. And if the caster dies the remaining PC's are stuck running a cage match to kill each other in order to end the spell! Or you could just cast Plane Shift and save yourself the 1100gp per person casting cost.
-DM: "So, Steve's character, Bob, just got eaten whole." -Steve: "Oh no, Dave, have your character, Jim bring me back. He's a Cleric." -Dave:" Sure, and I have the component. I ca-" -DM: "There's no body, it's gone. -"Steve + Dave: "****."
Now replace "eaten whole" with: disintegrated, burnt to ash, reduced to blood smear (blood =/= body), ground to paste (paste =/= body), slipped into sphere of annhilation, turned to goop, fallen into lava, fallen into acid... Oh the many ways that resurrection would not work but true resurrection could. Now apply the complications of curses and other things.. It would be good to have true resurrection in the back pocket should it ever be needed.
Perhaps you face a situation where this hero of lore who has been dead for 150 years is the only one who knows the way to defeat some big bad evil it once defeated and has now come back. So you cast speak with dead and zone of truth for good measure and it turns out only this hero can do it. True Res him then!
Sure, it is situational but the situations where it is needed do occur and the risks (like disintegrate, lava) of such situations arising will be ever increasing. Nothing is more dismaying than realising you could have true-res your ally who just failed a roll and has now melted into nothing in a river of lava if you had just taken 3 levels of multiclass instead of the 4 denying yourself from ever getting access to 9th level spells. You, and that player, will know they have to roll a new character because you didn't want 9th level cleric spells thinking them not worth it. Well it was worth it to Bob but now Bob's gone forever!
So True Resurrection is one of those spells that seems like its better to have and not need than to NOT have and need but lets think this through. How much playing are you planning on doing at 17th plus level? In that time how often are you going to run into a situation where you need a True Resurrection? And of those times how many times are you not going to be able to find a NPC to cast it for you? Why not just Plane Shift to your deities plane and beseech him/her to cast it for you? Sure a NPC or deity might require something extra in return but that is really just more opportunity for adventure.
My point about clerics in combat is not about how they are in such compared to other classes. The reason why clerics get less higher end spells is because of the versaility clerics have from earlier spells class features and domain features. Sure, a fighter can deal damage more effectively but fighters generally lack versatility. They hit things hard and that's it. They will never have a 9th level spell, not even eldritch knight. A cleric however gets to use weapons, armour multiple class features, multiple domain features and are full casters. That is more categories and boxes ticked than any other class. That is why the selection is bit weaker compared to other spellcasting classes. Compared to what you also get as a Cleric and that at 17th level you get a domain feature, 18th you get extra use of Channel Divinity per short rest, 19th you get an ASI and 20th you get auto-success on Divine Intervention which is arguably one of the most powerful non-spell features (very arguable, but certainly up there). You also get, at 20th level, a second 7th level spell slot too.
I think, given what you also get, the 9th level spells are worth it in my opinion. It adds to the package of high-level cleric and for me is enough of a reason to not multiclass. Of course it will also depend on you, the player, and the campaign.
At this point I am just debating you because I am enjoying the conversation. I agree that running a cleric to 20th level would indeed be pretty fun and I may try it with my next character. Still not 100% happy on the upper level spells but there are a lot of other options that balance that out.
Eh, not so sure Gate would allow atmospheric conditions to pass through. I wouldn't allow it and I doubt my DM would either. If so you could win almost any encounter by Gating lava on the baddies heads.
The spell description does state "Travel through the portal is possible only by moving through its front. Anything that does so is instantly transported to the other plane, appearing in the unoccupied space nearest to the portal." I would take this to mean anything of substance like water, lava, etc. I know my DM would too because he loves creative uses of spells and welcomes the challenge. It would probably mean more fire-immune non-fiend/undead enemies or more encounters in small boxed in areas that would make such use of Gate more difficult or even dangerous. But not everything is combat. I mean, want to fill a swimming pool quickly? Gate to plane of water or the sea of tranquility and you've got that pool filled in moments.
You can position the portal however you please and you are not alone so perhaps you're being chased by enemies. You know they are going to arrive so you have maybe 1 round before they turn the corner and storm toward you. So, you cast Gate on the floor where they will have to tread and an ally casts an illusion over it to make it look like it isn't there. In come the enemies and away they go to drown in the elemental plane of water or a river of lava on the elemental plane of fire or just really high in endless sky in the elemental plane of air. The ones at the back might stop themselves in time but those few at the front won't. Bye bye they go. And hey, there are spells to pull enemies a bit closer forcing them into the portal.
The tuning forks for Plane Shift have a specified cost - 250gp. Sure you have to do your research and gather the forks for the planes you want to visit but how many planes are you planning on traveling to? One for the material plane, one for Sigil and one for your deities home plane? Maybe a few others? And UNLIKE Gate you can use Plane Shift to force an opponent to another plane (keep that Plane of Fire tuning fork handy).
Very campaign dependent but generally 17+ level adventures are typically earth-shaking events that could have the group trying to save the world or even the whole multiverse. Planar travel is very common for high-level adventures. Plus, if you had the option to go to any plane and are the type to seek adventure why would you not want to go to any plane you can? The tuning forks have a cost but that cost is not including the time it takes to track such a thing down or researching it. The DMG, page 46, describes getting a single tuning fork to basically be an adventure in and of itself due to how rare they are. How realistic is it that the common people are going to want tuning forks for travel to some lower plane of Hell? Uh, not very. But, you might need one to stop that Rakshasa coming after you again and again. Can't plane shift there without the tuning fork and such a fork will rarely be made because the authorities in Hell will want that tuning knowledge secret so it can more easily control the "authorised" planar portals which will be guarded. Plane Shift also cannot get you into that Lich's demiplane where it stores its phylactery, ah, but Gate can.
Now, sure, if you have the tuning fork and you and a few friends want to go visit a plane then of course Plane Shift! Because that spells is intended as a more general small-group means of travel, and best to use. It can also let you use it against an enemy. But it does have limitations. It only transports creatures and, we assume because the spell doesn't say, the clothing and objects they wear and carry. But it doesn't let you target any other objects. Say you need to bring a wagon or something large and heavy? Say you just raided some place and have more gold and items than you can carry even if each character had a bag of holding (which carries a lot less than you think, we keep seeing this used like a portable warehouse but it's capacity is a lot less: the same volume of space as a 4ft cube). You cannot Plane Shift any of that, but you could open a Gate on the floor and shove it all through. Let's say you only need to go to that other plane for like 30 seconds to deliver an item. Gate allows you to go there, deliver the item, and get back with one spell slot and within 1 minute. With Plane Shift this would be two spell slots and probably take a couple of hours (more on why a bit later).
Plane Shift has 2 situations where it can be used: one way small group travel to another plane and to banish one creature to another plane. Gate can be used for large group travel, taking a lot of stuff with you (moving home to a new plane? Plane shift won't help), a minute where you can back and forth between planes with ease, access to resources (elemental planes, good positions, watch the sand/stone, water, lava, air, etc all fall through because the spell description does allow anything to pass through), can easily access any plane you know of without going on an adventure to get an appropiate fork for each new plane, can be used as a trap to potentially get multiple enemies into a dangerous area in a plane of choice - even easier with allies who can use illusions, levitation, telekinesis, push/shove, suggestion, etc., summon an enemy into a trap, make the Gate in front of you, forward facing, so ranged attacks can't hit you from that direction which is useful if you're holding a choke point... And probably more I cannot think of at gone 7 am.
Sure you can use Gate to run an army to another plane but how often are you expecting to do this? You planning on invading a plane with a undead army? And how often are you going to need to arrive at just the perfect spot? Any enemy that would be worth doing this to would have a countermeasure set up.
You seem to be constantly thinking in "combat" terms. Is that all you do in your sessions, just go on one battle after another? Oh, dear, I pity you. But if that is the case, yes, these spells would not help you. Multiclass into fighter and whack-away. **patronisingly pats your head**
Plane Shift cannot be specific beyond, maybe a landmark or a city. So, you can say City of Brass but can't really specify which building, street, area or whatever within. The arrival is "in the vacinity" but otherwise random. So you could end up just on the outskirts of the City or in a random street with several hostiles who will get spooked and attack you immediately or you could appear atop a very tall (instant-death fall height) building with no roof access. So, let's say you went to this place once and had to complete a quest for somebody there which involved going to some other plane, fetching something or doing something, and now you have to go back. The first time you plane shifted you ended up in a street miles from the person and had to navigate your way through, carefully, trying to avoid encounters. Now you use plane shift and end up even further away just outside the city and the city guards are having a mood and won't let you in. So, you've got to find a way in or have a battle then you're back to having to travel those streets again just to go meet the person. That's a lot when you can just use Gate to go instantly to the guy. Or how about you know there's an artifact in a specific room of a specific tower in a specific plane and you've even seen it in book pictures or maybe you got the chance to scry multidimensionally and see it. You could Plane Shift nearby, maybe a couple of miles from the tower and fight your way to it. Or you could Gate there, grab it and Plane Shift back before anyone can do anything about it to stop you.
The precision of Gate can allow you to avoid obstacles and travel you would be forced to make by the randomness of Plane Shift and ensures you do not end up bamfing into a dangerous situation because you can target a safe place you know of. If you need a face-to-face with a contact there you can use the "summon" aspect to summon them and remember when you use this summon part the portal they are brought through remains open so you summon, talk briefly or hand them the package or whatever, and they can step back through the portal to whereever they were. This is useful if you might not know whether they actually were because using Gate this way you don't need to know, you just need to know their name.
You really do not seem to understand just how versatile this spell actually is if you think creatively.
Astral Projection is a joke. Transport yourself and 8 hapless individuals to the Astral plane where each of you now has a instant kill button on your back. Don't kid yourself. Your DM will make sure you encounter a few creatures capable of cutting a silver cord. And if the caster dies the remaining PC's are stuck running a cage match to kill each other in order to end the spell! Or you could just cast Plane Shift and save yourself the 1100gp per person casting cost.
In terms of "getting from A to B" yes, it's weaker than plane shift and gate. The problem here is that - this is not what the spell is designed for. Both Gate and Plane Shift require you to know about the specific destination and have enough awareness to target there. The spell is about exploration not direct travel. It's there to find hidden portals and ways to the planes that might not be known and therefore won't be watched and planes may have deities or rulers that block unsanctioned portals from opening so Gate also becomes useless and they may be forbidden any attunement so no attunement forks. Rare, situational, but possible and Astral Projection can still be a way in. But, it's an adventure in and of itself rather than just "getting there" it gives you the opportunity to enjoy the travel.
Any DM who takes this as an opportunity to throw lots of enemies who "just so happen" to have the means to cut silver cords which is actually intended by designers to be one of the rarest things in all D&D (in previous editions before Gith races there were NO enemies, items, spells or anything except a Psychic Storm that could ever pose a risk to the silver cord) then your DM is a Grade A dick. The whole point of this spell is provide a safer way to travel. You also have to remember that with the exception of Arcana Domain, a Cleric has no same-plane long-distance teleport spells for easy travel. So, if you want to travel from one side of the world to other you either have to burn two high-level slots for two castings of Plane Shift / Gate or you can burn just 1 slot for Astral Projection. It's not instantaneous but it's safer and faster than travelling by foot/horse/ship/etc. And neither gate nor plane shift let you explore and find new places in the Outer Planes and there are some areas of the Outer Planes that cannot be reached by any means except Astral Projection.
It is also worth noting that the means of silvering the silver cord is pretty restricted to very random and exceedingly rare encounters in the Astral Plane. Don't forget you have an oh-shit button because when you do encounter such events rather than risking the cord severance you can just use your action to dismiss the spell and just like that you wake up safe and sound back in your bodies. As per the DMG such encounters should only be occurring after extended stays (multiple days) in the Astral Plane which will be unlikely. If you travel to an Outer Plane via Astral Projection instead of a direct-transport spell like Plane Shift or Gate, you can choose to not teleport your real body and use your astral body instead because the Outer Planes are as much a place of thought and spirit (astral form) as they are physical (physical form). In other words, even after leaving the Astral Plane, the only place with things that can sever the Silver Cord, you can wander those Outer Planes with your Astral Body which means no instant-death and even if you drop to instantly negative 6-million HP, no death at all because you will just wake up in your body. This is covered in the planes information on page 47 of the DMG which has a specific section on Astral Projection detailing this safety feature as why some travellers may prefer Astral Projection over other more direct means.
Also consider we're reviewing the spells here as a package because it's not like you have to pick between them. You can prepare any of them and only for the days you think you may need them. It's not as important of a factor as say for a Sorcerer who can only pick so many spells to know. Even if this spell will never be used in your campaign you can find uses for the other spells. Even if you don't want to prepare any of the spells, the levels 17+ get you a 7th, 8th and 9th level slot you can use to cast lower spells through these higher level slots - multi-target hold person? 8th level spiritual weapon? 9th level inflict wounds? These should also be considered. You're not just getting new spells you have to realise you basically get higher level versions of spells you already have that you may find very useful. But the chances are you will find uses for some of those 9th level spells and being able to use them is a great benefit even if it is only situational. If your ally got disintegrated, well, you have 200 years to come up with the coin for the diamonds and holy water to true res them and that player can play a temp character until you get what you need. If the story arc is over and you're in downtime you can do a time-skip and just say you found the coin (which should be easy for 17+level because the standard gold for an easy-medium encounter for that level is about 7.5k-10.5k gp. More for dragons who are specifically gold hoarders. So, this is why people say components are not much of an issue at high level because it's easy to amass coins from encounters. If you are not getting this then you need to speak with your DM because the component value is based on these standards which your DM is ignoring and therefore should be adjusting the component costs as well to reflect this and maintain balance.
Finally, not all spells need to have super special reasoning and purpose. Sometimes, it's nice to have a spell you can just have fun with. I mean if you feel like a battle royale why you can Astral Project, and there you can battle each other to death without it being actual death - they just wake up in their bodies. If the last one standing is not the caster they just stab themselves in the head - instant success drop to 0 hp. And voila, a completely in-canon battle-to-"death" PVP battle royale. Also a good way to settle disputes between two lug-headed warriors. Also a great way to train in safety.
So True Resurrection is one of those spells that seems like its better to have and not need than to NOT have and need but lets think this through. How much playing are you planning on doing at 17th plus level? In that time how often are you going to run into a situation where you need a True Resurrection? And of those times how many times are you not going to be able to find a NPC to cast it for you? Why not just Plane Shift to your deities plane and beseech him/her to cast it for you? Sure a NPC or deity might require something extra in return but that is really just more opportunity for adventure.
I've known, but was not playing in, one campaign where they spent a couple of years at 17+ level - the entire campaign lasted over 12 years with weekly to bi-weekly play. Some people do play the long games and I do hope I get to. The DM I currently play with hopes to do so as well. As for the situation well, in one campaign (which I did not stay in very long due to the DM being utterly useless and some players being super ****ery) we were in an underground cave with lava flows and crossing over them involving a check and if you failed you fell in - due to the distance and abundance and flow of lava this would be instant-ash death. We were level 1. At pretty much any encounter you may face trolls or gnolls or goblins or ogres or kobolds or more that on killing you will not stop and would eat you then use your bones for soup. These encounters can occur from level 1 to 20. So it is entirely possible to face these "no body" situations at any level. As for checking with your deity yes it is possible a deity could assist in return for something but treating this as positive "just more opportunity for adventure" instead of just performing the true res and getting the result more directly yourself is a bit odd considering your considerable dislike of Astral Projection which is also "less direct way in favour of more opportunity for adventure". So you're giving mixed-messages here. There's also the possibility the deity will refuse or you fail the mission they give and will now not help you in this request. Some deities are more about you testing and proving yourself worthy of such reward and gaining it where appropriate and may refuse if they do not feel you have grown in your faith enough (i.e. not high enough level) for such reward (i.e. access to true resurrection). A cleric's level progression is not really about their individual skill but rather about their deity rewarding their progress with more power and may not see reason to give you power, not even a single use, until you have progressed enough. Because quite frankly, if a level-reward can be so accessed without gaining those levels then what the fluffing point is there to levelling up? Now, sure, many DMs may find some adventure RP fluff reason to find a way to get a true res for the ally but incur some penalty beyond just the component cost like perhaps you sought somebody who did this for you but you did not realise they are evil and their version of the ceremony allowed them to not just bring back your friend but take over their mind as well, unbeknownst to you so your ally is now working in secret for this evil person and may be forced to betray you at some point. Or perhaps instead of a true res it will be a modified reincarnate bringing them back as a different race or even gender. Or maybe the penalty will be something going wrong and the character brought back loses a level or two similar to resurrections in previous editions. Really, a good DM would seize the opportunity to find some way to make you not want to go through this again because giving you access to 17+ level cleric things when you are not and might never be a 17+ level cleric should have considerable consequences beyond an adventure the dead character's player cannot take part in and some coin for components.
At this point I am just debating you because I am enjoying the conversation. I agree that running a cleric to 20th level would indeed be pretty fun and I may try it with my next character. Still not 100% happy on the upper level spells but there are a lot of other options that balance that out.
And I appreciate the debate and enjoy this too. Mostly because I'm an argumentative bastage but also because I love talking about this stuff and my ego wanting to be "right" (not that you really can be when considering personal opinions) prompts me to think of creative things. I defend Astral Projection trying to think of creative uses when honestly, I also would probably never use this spell. It's just fun to come up with the ideas and talk about it, though.
I've been enjoying reading the discussion as well. Cyb3rM1nd, you make some excellent points about the straightforward, and more creative, ways to use the spells in the Clerics 9th level list. I hope that I get to try some of those things when my Cleric gets to those high levels.
However, I definitely have a similar feeling as Slain000 when looking at the top tier Cleric spells. They are extremely powerful spells, don't get me wrong, but they just aren't "destination" or "signature" spells. I'm not going to choose to play a Cleric for the 8th and 9th level spells. I would choose to play a Druid for Shapechange, which, by chance, also gets me True Res.
They are all highly situational spells that, frankly, just aren't that fun to cast. I give that drowning an undead BBEG in holy water is an amazing use of Gate, but if your DM's homebrew story setting doesn't support a lot of Plane hopping, then literally half of a Cleric's 9th level spells are effectively useless. Not to mention that you have to have a particularly strong reason to need a True Res.
Yes, I know that resurrecting a dear friend, family member, epic hero, etc. is an amazing ability. When I say they aren't that fun to cast, I mean that I can't just go into an encounter and drop a Meteor Storm on a dragon, or Shapechange/Polymorph into a giant or dragon, or roll a Tsunami over the battlefield, or Dominate a Monster to do my bidding, or Polymorph my entire team into dolphins for some sea-based shenanigans. Even if the RP is great, with lots of planning and tears and hand-wringing, to go into a True Res, etc. you ultimately have a ritual spell that you can MAYBE use once in a campaign.
I think that if each Domain could gain one appropriate spell at the 6th - 9th levels, or even just one capstone 9th level spell, it would go a long way to satisfy this perceived "boringness." For example, why wouldn't a 17th level Tempest Cleric gain access to Storm of Vengeance?
For example:
Arcana: Wish
Death: Power Word Kill
Forge:
Grave: Invulnerability
Knowledge: Foresight
Life: Power Word Heal
Light: Meteor Storm
Nature: Shapechange
Order: Imprisonment
Tempest: Storm of Vengeance
Trickery: Time Stop
War: Prismatic Wall
The Forge Domain is the only Domain for which I can't think up a capstone 9th level spell from the existing list of spells. It would be easy enough to come up with a new weapon or armor based 9th level spell, though.
As a Cleric 15/Wizard 5 I would still have a 9th level spell slot. I would still be able to do plenty with that slot. Sure I might not be casting Meteor Swarm but I could do a pretty hefty 14d6 Fireball with a 9th level slot. Or a heal for 7d8+WIS with Mass Cure Wounds.
Is that how multiclass spell slots work? Pretty amazing.
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9th-level cleric spells are not the reason you want to hit cleric level 17. Your 17th-level domain feature is the reason you want to hit cleric level 17.
This is true. decide if you want to play someone with a couple of low level wizarding mixed in, or if you want to play someone who has some really powerful cleric abilities.
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So I am currently playing a Knowledge Cleric 9/Divination Wizard 3 (just joined a group at 12th level) and I initially choose this combination so I could still have the ability to cast 9th level spells (once I hit 20th level).
After playing my PC a bit I started to do some reading of 9th level cleric spells. So there are only four (4) in the entire game! The spells are Astral Projection, Gate, Mass Heal, and True Resurrection. Three of these spells have some hefty material component costs. So it started me to wonder...wouldn't I be better off with two more levels of Wizard then those levels of Cleric? As a Cleric 15/Wizard 5 I would still have a 9th level spell slot. I would still be able to do plenty with that slot. Sure I might not be casting Meteor Swarm but I could do a pretty hefty 14d6 Fireball with a 9th level slot. Or a heal for 7d8+WIS with Mass Cure Wounds.
Really the only spell which gives me pause is Mass Heal. Is that one 9th level spell worth it? Maybe I could just sport a scroll with Mass Heal instead?
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
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9th-level cleric spells are not the reason you want to hit cleric level 17. Your 17th-level domain feature is the reason you want to hit cleric level 17.
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At 12th level, you won't be able to cast 9th level spells at all, regardless of what levels you have in cleric and wizard. Furthermore, material costs are generally a moot point once you get to the level where you can actually cast those spells (at 17th level, when most characters get access to their highest spell slots, individual monster treasure is anywhere from 5000 to 10000 gold, and treasure hoards are much higher). These spells are also extremely potent, and allow your character to perform actions others couldn't possibly attempt. True Resurrection in particular is expensive precisely because it is so powerful. Not only does it not need a body to work, it removes any negative effects that could have been attached at time of death, has no drawbacks to its use, and restores a person to full vitality. Astral Projection and Gate are more for extraplanar movement, but both have their own quirks, and are extremely potent tools. If it helps, look at the lesser versions of the spell and compare them to the 9th level version. Mass Cure Wounds at 9th level, with a WIS mod of +5, can heal 6 creatures 61 points. Mass Heal can 700 points total, divided up among as many creatures you want at double the range of Mass Cure Wounds. All of this aside, you are correct that there is not quite as many spells for clerics at high level as for the more arcane focused classes, so if you want to put more levels into wizard, then you will definitely gain a bit more flexibility in regards to offensive options.
Good point but the knowledge domain ability at 17th is kinda weak. It allows a PC to read objects or areas and see into the past week...not too pivotal. Especially at that level. I'd say it really depends on the type of campaign you are playing in whether it would even ever come into play.
On the other hand, increasing Wizard to 5th would give me access to Counterspell. That spell alone I would happily trade out for object reading.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
Well, I meant that to mean that I would still have access to 9th level spells once I hit max level (as a 17th level cleric and 3rd level wizard). Rereading my OP I can see the confusion.
I disagree with this statement. I've never played in a game where opponents burst into a shower of gp once defeated but I have played in high level campaigns where you spend a good portion of your wealth purchasing better magic items and fortifying a home base. Even if a DM keeps up with the gp scale for end game encounters I would be hard pressed to keep a stash of gold to use these 9th level cleric spells. Astral Projection has a cost between 1100gp through 9900gp, Gate runs 5000gp a cast, and True Resurrection is a massive 25000gp. All 3 of these spells are so situational that I could just keep a scroll handy and use my portent ability (divination school) to make sure I could cast them in that one time of need.
For me this really focuses on Mass Heal. This is the one 9th level cleric spell I feel that you would always prepare if you had access to it. So the decision is will the party need this specific spell when we hit cap level? Or can we live without it?
I'm thinking most campaigns would be fine without 9th level cleric spells.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
So since this came up I thought I would review all the 9th level spells. Looks like cleric and druid are at the bottom of the heap with four 9th level spells. Bard and warlock are next with six spells available. Then Sorcerer with seven. And, of course, wizard leds the pack with fifteen 9th level spells.
What's more embarrassing is the bard gets Power Word Heal while the cleric does not. A 18th level bard can already snatch spells like Wish or Time Stop using their magical secrets feature but bards also have access to one of the most powerful healing spells in the game. If any class should have only four available 9th level spells it should be the bard. It really seems like the cleric (maybe the druid too) is loosing out.
I think I may try to talk my DM into adding a couple of spells to the cleric list for 9th level. Anyone have any suggestions as to what to add? I looked over the homebrew 9th level spells and a few of them are interesting. If I don't come up with a homebrew spell then I think Foresight and Power Word Heal are likely additions to the cleric list.
Disclaimer: I have only ever ran or played in 15th plus level games using 2nd and 3.5 editions. I am not sure how balance is at those levels with 5E but I'm happy to find out.
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Not sure but a Cleric gains access to all those level spells, I know a wizard has to go buy,study before they get more spells. Is that the same for other classes?
Clerics might just get less because they are powerful and you get them off the bat where other classes can only choose one or have to go buy or study in game time to get them.
Wizards only need to buy/study spells they add outside of levelling up. When they level up they get 2 spells of their choice from the Wizard spell list added to their spellbook instantly and for free. When you reach level 17, for example, a Wizard can add 2 level 9 spells instantly and for free. And another 2 at level 18 and another 2 at level 19 and another 2 at level 20. It would be fruitless to get so many level 9 spells because you can only cast 1 per day.
However, Clerics have powerful features and a lot of options - a cleric of any domain can switch between melee fighting to range casting and can even fight and cast at same time due to so many bonus spells
It would be unwise to think "cleric = healer". They are not "the healer class" in 5th Edition. They can do a lot of healing, but as a class they can focus entirely on damage if the wanted or utility. They have considerable versatility. For this reason their level 9 options are limited.
For example, at end level all Clerics get to auto-succeed at Divine Intervention which is like a limited Wish spell you can cast once per week for free.
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Bards can only change out their spells when they level up, so when you get to those higher levels, you have to pick really carefully about what all you might need until your next level. Or what you want to keep 'forever' at level 20.
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Clerics do have some powerful features but it's pretty hard for them to switch between a fighting role and a caster role. It's really dependent on magic items and general build. My character is built more like a wizard so I have a high wisdom and intelligence. I am definitely regulated to support as there is not much I can do in melee with my +1 mace. I also created a monk/cleric for the same campaign who was much more of a melee fighter (unfortunately he got his soul trapped by a unlucky draw for a Deck of Many Things). Both characters had different stats and played very differently.
A good point. Improved Divine Intervention might be just good enough to go all 20 levels as cleric. Too late for this character but something to think about regarding the next one. The problem I have with this feature is how dependent it is on the DM. With some DM's it might be a good replacement for the lack of 9th level spells. With others...not so much.
Not sure that this is that big a disadvantage. Bard's get an extra spell known at 17th and 18th levels plus two spells thru magical secrets at 18th. A bard could easily pick two or three 9th level spells and they would all be more useful than the cleric's very limited options at that level. Personally, I feel that the cleric 9th level spells are more oversight than anything. D&D rarely gets played at these upper levels so I don't think the designers spent a ton of time on it.
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It does depend on build and options but you can say that about most classes and such. My experience with Clerics is limited to one character I play, one I made and have not played and some I read about. My character is strictly cleric, no multiclass, 9th level and the only magic items are a bag of holding and a pearl of power. Yet, she easily switches between melee and ranged. I geared her more for range but she's actually most powerful in melee. I can get the AC up to 17 but could, if wanted, push to 19 with a shield and 21 with shield of faith spell. Base damage output per round is 1d6+1d8+4 which is an average of 11 damage on attack. Not the best, but hey this is all basic and is the same either up close or at range. Typically I use the holy weapon spell to bump this to 1d6+3d8+4 or 19. If I can get an enemy under Hold Person spell I can just go in and Inflict Wounds 4th level for 12d10 damage (because against people paralysed by Hold Person if you land a hit, which is made with advantage, it's an autocrit) which is average 60 damage and I can bump this with a channel divinity to 83 damage. Not counting the Spiritual Weapon, also melee, which I usually always throw up in a fight using a 2nd level slot. Against a paralysed target that's advantage and auto-crit for 2d8+5 which is average 13. That's 96 average damage in one round and if they fail to break hold person then why not do it again? Oh, I still have a 4th level slot and they still did not break the hold so all again... When they do break the hold use other 2nd level and 3rd level slots to add again. Even without the spells an attack every turn from a shortsword or hand crossbow is helpful.
My character is a variant human death cleric focusing in Dexterity and Wisdom and for the variant human bonus feat I chose Magic Initiate Sorcerer to get once per day Mage Armour for an AC of 13 + Dex when not wearing armour which works out superior to any medium armour. The Dex adds to skills, AC, Initiative and finesse weapons. As a Death cleric I get proficiency with all weapons. The death cleric's channel divinity adds to any melee attack and Divine Strike lets you add 1d8 to weapon damage. The Holy Weapon 5th level spell lets you add 2d8 to weapons to wear the opponent down and then you can switch your concentration to Hold Person and burn those 4th level slots for Inflict Wounds bumped by channel divinity and using your bonus action on spiritual weapon attacks. It's an effective combo. Especially when your entourage of zombies are slamming the opponent as well because as a death cleric with always-prepped Animate Dead you should have zombies.
Don't like death cleric? How about life domain with heavy armour proficiency or maybe war domain with martial weapon proficiency, heavy armour proficiency, ability to add +10 bonus to attacks, 1d8 per attack extra damage on weapon attacks and eventually resistances. Can easily go melee or ranged as needed.
Sure the lack of Extra Attack is severely hampering your damage output but you do get to dish out damage and can make a cleric that is quite adaptable to combat and switching from ranged/melee easily. Unlike other spellcasters a cleric is perfectly capable of going direct into the fray. If you combine them right your spells can more than make up for the lack of extra attack. If you make the right choices having a cleric than is capable of melee, ranged and also support is certainly achievable and in this regard is probably one of the most readily combat-adaptive classes. You chose a domain that is not geared for combat and so in a combat situation you will be a bit less effective than the other combat-focused domains. Even so, you do have incredible versatility and this potential went into deciding what spells you could do.
I do agree with you and mileage may vary by DM but Divine Intervention does say “The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate.” You can work with the DM and consider it similar to wish in that it replicates a spell at a level you could have cast. At auto-success it means the DM really should always be doing something to help you out, after all you only get this once every seven days. If the DM is wasting this feature on something small talk to them because they're either ignorant of the feature intention or being a dick. This feature is granted once per week which should indicate the help must be darn good.
You also need to realise that the availability of things like 9th level spells must take into account what you can do with those slots with lower level spells. Unlike Sorcs and Wizards who have no real decent melee attacks they can combine for 9th level spell slots the Cleric can use a Hold Person and use the melee spell Inflict Wounds. This is an advantage-to-hit attack that, being melee, is auto-crit on success so for 9th level slot would be 22d10 damage. Now consider Spiritual Weapon, a variety of other bonus action spells, channel divinities, and so on... This is why the options are limited, there is no oversight. They also have to consider multiclassing into account.
The spells themselves have such costs because you can otherwise abuse them. Astral Projection is safe way to explore other realms and you can stay in the astral sea as long as you want. You could, for example, use Astral Projection, find a portal to a target realm, camp near it, recover your 9th level spell slot then move on to appear in the realm pulling to it your original bodies and you therefore arrive having basically travelled to another dimension with all your spell slots and hit points intact. And the material cost is 1100gp per creature, which is actually not that much. A single fight against an adult or ancient dragon can easily fund this for your entire party, for example. And Gate is even better. You choose the location and you open a gate to it and you can even make it wide enough to fit a small army through or even a ship. Or you can use this to summon any creature to you that was on another plane. This is great if summoning an enemy into a trap. The 5,000 gp component is small potatoes at this level and it's completely reusable. It's something you pay only once and then have it always, not per cast. True Resurrection is costly, but considering it basically means you can bring back to life anyone you want who died within the last 2 centuries, don't even need a body. It's worth the price tag. Mass Heal is amazing. 700 hit points of healing to divvy up as you want to any one you want within 60 feet range? “Oh, four team mates just dropped unconscious, darn, well I use Mass Heal and now they're all up and nearly full health again”. This is a battle-changer and no material cost involved.
I personally feel that all things considered the spell options for level 9 is balanced and sufficient in my opinion. Admittedly, my experience in clerics has been limited but from I've played so far and read up on it's definitely one of those classes that is best to not multiclass in Just my two pence for what it is worth.
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Ok, so this could be a really interesting conversation about builds but ultimately I don't see anything uber about the cleric that couldn't be matched by another class to a greater or lesser degree. A wizard or sorcerer could simply cast 2 fireballs instead of hold person/inflict wounds and lay waste to the whole battlefield. The barbarian, fighter, monk, paladin and ranger would get 4 attacks in the time it takes for that combo plus all their other special abilities. Meanwhile, the rogue could very likely get two sneak attacks. Even better is when the cleric holds person while the rest of the party goes to town. My party recently taught our DM a hard lesson regarding having the BBEG show up all by himself. I think that 5E is by far the most balanced edition of D&D and there is really only small differences between classes. Especially in the sweet spot levels of 8th thru 12th.
Not sure how abuseable Astral Projection is. This is a spell that only comes into play if the party has a need to visit another plane. Something that could be accomplished with Plane Shift or through DM fiat if the campaign requires the travel. In addition, the party bard, warlock or wizard could also cast it.
Gate could be a potential game changer depending on what comes through but that depends on what the DM is willing to allow. And again the traveling to another plane can be handled with 250gp and Plane Shift. AND the party wizard could cast this if it was really needed.
True Resurrection is indeed a mighty spell but very situational. I can only think of a few things (disintegrate) which destroy the body along with killing the character. For the vast amount of PC deaths Raise Dead and Resurrection are more than adequate.
Mass Heal is the key 9th level cleric spell. Possibly the best healing spell in the game and if a person were to play a 17th plus level cleric it would most certainly be prepared. As you have previously pointed out a cleric is not always the healer (or only healer) and isn't always going to burn his 9th level spell on a heal.
So far in this thread I feel the major reasons to go to 17th -20th level cleric have less to due with the 9th level spell selection and more to do with the 17th level domain ability and the capstone 20th level ability of Improved Divine Intervention. I still think that the cleric 9th level spell list is weak (8th level too but that's another topic) but I see more reasons to play a cleric 1st-20th.
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For Gate your hand-waive reasons are by comparing it to Plane Shift. So, some things to consider:
~ A 5k diamond is easier to get than a fork of any cost specifically attuned to a different dimension. With Plane Shift you need to get a fork for each plane you want to go to. The spell itself does not grant you a fork to any plane not even to Material Plane. So, if you do manage to get a fork magically attuned to the Elemental Plane of Fire great you can now just go there. However, unless you also obtained such a fork for the Material Plane you can't use this spell to return home. The diamond for Gate is just a diamond. No attunements and it goes anywhere you want. Plane Shift is not specific you give location in general terms so you can say "City of Brass of the Elemental Plane of Fire" and the spell will take you to it and that's as specific you can be. With Gate you can say "Mr Grant's basement on the street of coals in the City of Brass along on the wall that faces those ghastly stairs" and that's precisely where the portal goes to.
~ Plane Shift is just you and a few creatures you touch at the time of casting. Bamf, there. With Gate you create a portal 20 feet wide for 1 minute. With that you could easily transport a couple hundred people rushing through. Or even a small ship. So this is amazing if you're in a disastrous situation where many people are in danger - thanks to Gate you can save them all but with Plane Shift you will have to let people die.
~ The big bad enemy is here. Oh crap it's monsterous. The room is small, there's no escape. The DM says this monsterous undead behemoth is going... Wait did they say Undead? Oh fantastic. Thanks to Gate you just instantly win. Cast Gate above it to the Sea of Tranquility or whatever it's called - where there's infinite sea of holy water. Watch in glee as the behemoth receives several hundred radiant damage per second.
And all for a one-time investment of 5k diamond you probably could have gotten sick of finding by level 12 unless your DM is extremely stingy.
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Astral Projection is again good for planar travel and in that is weaker than Gate. However, it's slower you could take a nice easy long rest in between so when you arrive at the new plane you're full health and have all your spells including your 9th which you may have chosen to swap out for a different one like Mass Heal. It's also a nice way to travel the Astral Sea knowing you're safe no matter what happens as the things that cut that silver cord are extremely few. Beyond that, you need not worry as at worst you just wake up in your body in the material world. Also, you could stay in the Astral Sea as long as you want - while there your body cannot age, starve or die of thirst. So, hide your body somewhere, maybe even underwater or something, and go spend as long as you want there. It's like a vacation. It's a great RP opportunity. You get to go explore a whole new realm full of wonder and mystery and do so while staying safe and sound. How is that not fun?
--
-DM: "So, Steve's character, Bob, just got eaten whole."
-Steve: "Oh no, Dave, have your character, Jim bring me back. He's a Cleric."
-Dave:" Sure, and I have the component. I ca-"
-DM: "There's no body, it's gone.
-"Steve + Dave: "****."
Now replace "eaten whole" with: disintegrated, burnt to ash, reduced to blood smear (blood =/= body), ground to paste (paste =/= body), slipped into sphere of annhilation, turned to goop, fallen into lava, fallen into acid... Oh the many ways that resurrection would not work but true resurrection could. Now apply the complications of curses and other things.. It would be good to have true resurrection in the back pocket should it ever be needed.
Perhaps you face a situation where this hero of lore who has been dead for 150 years is the only one who knows the way to defeat some big bad evil it once defeated and has now come back. So you cast speak with dead and zone of truth for good measure and it turns out only this hero can do it. True Res him then!
Sure, it is situational but the situations where it is needed do occur and the risks (like disintegrate, lava) of such situations arising will be ever increasing. Nothing is more dismaying than realising you could have true-res your ally who just failed a roll and has now melted into nothing in a river of lava if you had just taken 3 levels of multiclass instead of the 4 denying yourself from ever getting access to 9th level spells. You, and that player, will know they have to roll a new character because you didn't want 9th level cleric spells thinking them not worth it. Well it was worth it to Bob but now Bob's gone forever!
--
My point about clerics in combat is not about how they are in such compared to other classes. The reason why clerics get less higher end spells is because of the versaility clerics have from earlier spells class features and domain features. Sure, a fighter can deal damage more effectively but fighters generally lack versatility. They hit things hard and that's it. They will never have a 9th level spell, not even eldritch knight. A cleric however gets to use weapons, armour multiple class features, multiple domain features and are full casters. That is more categories and boxes ticked than any other class. That is why the selection is bit weaker compared to other spellcasting classes. Compared to what you also get as a Cleric and that at 17th level you get a domain feature, 18th you get extra use of Channel Divinity per short rest, 19th you get an ASI and 20th you get auto-success on Divine Intervention which is arguably one of the most powerful non-spell features (very arguable, but certainly up there). You also get, at 20th level, a second 7th level spell slot too.
I think, given what you also get, the 9th level spells are worth it in my opinion. It adds to the package of high-level cleric and for me is enough of a reason to not multiclass. Of course it will also depend on you, the player, and the campaign.
Ultimately only you can decide if you find it worth it, I'm just here to explain why I do because I know with my character, playstyle, and campaign it would be badass and fun.
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I am beginning to agree that playing a cleric all the way to 20th level would indeed be badass and fun. Still think you'd be jealous of your fellow spell casters more badass 9th level spells.
Allow me to retort...
Eh, not so sure Gate would allow atmospheric conditions to pass through. I wouldn't allow it and I doubt my DM would either. If so you could win almost any encounter by Gating lava on the baddies heads.
To my mind a more important feature of Gate is the ability to call forth a planer being. I'd expect a high level cleric to prepare for this by RP'ing and getting to know a servant of their deity. Possibly a Planetar or Solar. If a DM would let you use Gate to dependably summon a CR 16 or higher creature it might just be worth keeping Gate handy. IF the DM would be open to it. And the bad guys can use this tactic as well.
The tuning forks for Plane Shift have a specified cost - 250gp. Sure you have to do your research and gather the forks for the planes you want to visit but how many planes are you planning on traveling to? One for the material plane, one for Sigil and one for your deities home plane? Maybe a few others? And UNLIKE Gate you can use Plane Shift to force an opponent to another plane (keep that Plane of Fire tuning fork handy).
Sure you can use Gate to run an army to another plane but how often are you expecting to do this? You planning on invading a plane with a undead army? And how often are you going to need to arrive at just the perfect spot? Any enemy that would be worth doing this to would have a countermeasure set up.
Astral Projection is a joke. Transport yourself and 8 hapless individuals to the Astral plane where each of you now has a instant kill button on your back. Don't kid yourself. Your DM will make sure you encounter a few creatures capable of cutting a silver cord. And if the caster dies the remaining PC's are stuck running a cage match to kill each other in order to end the spell! Or you could just cast Plane Shift and save yourself the 1100gp per person casting cost.
So True Resurrection is one of those spells that seems like its better to have and not need than to NOT have and need but lets think this through. How much playing are you planning on doing at 17th plus level? In that time how often are you going to run into a situation where you need a True Resurrection? And of those times how many times are you not going to be able to find a NPC to cast it for you? Why not just Plane Shift to your deities plane and beseech him/her to cast it for you? Sure a NPC or deity might require something extra in return but that is really just more opportunity for adventure.
At this point I am just debating you because I am enjoying the conversation. I agree that running a cleric to 20th level would indeed be pretty fun and I may try it with my next character. Still not 100% happy on the upper level spells but there are a lot of other options that balance that out.
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The spell description does state "Travel through the portal is possible only by moving through its front. Anything that does so is instantly transported to the other plane, appearing in the unoccupied space nearest to the portal." I would take this to mean anything of substance like water, lava, etc. I know my DM would too because he loves creative uses of spells and welcomes the challenge. It would probably mean more fire-immune non-fiend/undead enemies or more encounters in small boxed in areas that would make such use of Gate more difficult or even dangerous. But not everything is combat. I mean, want to fill a swimming pool quickly? Gate to plane of water or the sea of tranquility and you've got that pool filled in moments.
You can position the portal however you please and you are not alone so perhaps you're being chased by enemies. You know they are going to arrive so you have maybe 1 round before they turn the corner and storm toward you. So, you cast Gate on the floor where they will have to tread and an ally casts an illusion over it to make it look like it isn't there. In come the enemies and away they go to drown in the elemental plane of water or a river of lava on the elemental plane of fire or just really high in endless sky in the elemental plane of air. The ones at the back might stop themselves in time but those few at the front won't. Bye bye they go. And hey, there are spells to pull enemies a bit closer forcing them into the portal.
Very campaign dependent but generally 17+ level adventures are typically earth-shaking events that could have the group trying to save the world or even the whole multiverse. Planar travel is very common for high-level adventures. Plus, if you had the option to go to any plane and are the type to seek adventure why would you not want to go to any plane you can? The tuning forks have a cost but that cost is not including the time it takes to track such a thing down or researching it. The DMG, page 46, describes getting a single tuning fork to basically be an adventure in and of itself due to how rare they are. How realistic is it that the common people are going to want tuning forks for travel to some lower plane of Hell? Uh, not very. But, you might need one to stop that Rakshasa coming after you again and again. Can't plane shift there without the tuning fork and such a fork will rarely be made because the authorities in Hell will want that tuning knowledge secret so it can more easily control the "authorised" planar portals which will be guarded. Plane Shift also cannot get you into that Lich's demiplane where it stores its phylactery, ah, but Gate can.
Now, sure, if you have the tuning fork and you and a few friends want to go visit a plane then of course Plane Shift! Because that spells is intended as a more general small-group means of travel, and best to use. It can also let you use it against an enemy. But it does have limitations. It only transports creatures and, we assume because the spell doesn't say, the clothing and objects they wear and carry. But it doesn't let you target any other objects. Say you need to bring a wagon or something large and heavy? Say you just raided some place and have more gold and items than you can carry even if each character had a bag of holding (which carries a lot less than you think, we keep seeing this used like a portable warehouse but it's capacity is a lot less: the same volume of space as a 4ft cube). You cannot Plane Shift any of that, but you could open a Gate on the floor and shove it all through. Let's say you only need to go to that other plane for like 30 seconds to deliver an item. Gate allows you to go there, deliver the item, and get back with one spell slot and within 1 minute. With Plane Shift this would be two spell slots and probably take a couple of hours (more on why a bit later).
Plane Shift has 2 situations where it can be used: one way small group travel to another plane and to banish one creature to another plane. Gate can be used for large group travel, taking a lot of stuff with you (moving home to a new plane? Plane shift won't help), a minute where you can back and forth between planes with ease, access to resources (elemental planes, good positions, watch the sand/stone, water, lava, air, etc all fall through because the spell description does allow anything to pass through), can easily access any plane you know of without going on an adventure to get an appropiate fork for each new plane, can be used as a trap to potentially get multiple enemies into a dangerous area in a plane of choice - even easier with allies who can use illusions, levitation, telekinesis, push/shove, suggestion, etc., summon an enemy into a trap, make the Gate in front of you, forward facing, so ranged attacks can't hit you from that direction which is useful if you're holding a choke point... And probably more I cannot think of at gone 7 am.
You seem to be constantly thinking in "combat" terms. Is that all you do in your sessions, just go on one battle after another? Oh, dear, I pity you. But if that is the case, yes, these spells would not help you. Multiclass into fighter and whack-away. **patronisingly pats your head**
Plane Shift cannot be specific beyond, maybe a landmark or a city. So, you can say City of Brass but can't really specify which building, street, area or whatever within. The arrival is "in the vacinity" but otherwise random. So you could end up just on the outskirts of the City or in a random street with several hostiles who will get spooked and attack you immediately or you could appear atop a very tall (instant-death fall height) building with no roof access. So, let's say you went to this place once and had to complete a quest for somebody there which involved going to some other plane, fetching something or doing something, and now you have to go back. The first time you plane shifted you ended up in a street miles from the person and had to navigate your way through, carefully, trying to avoid encounters. Now you use plane shift and end up even further away just outside the city and the city guards are having a mood and won't let you in. So, you've got to find a way in or have a battle then you're back to having to travel those streets again just to go meet the person. That's a lot when you can just use Gate to go instantly to the guy. Or how about you know there's an artifact in a specific room of a specific tower in a specific plane and you've even seen it in book pictures or maybe you got the chance to scry multidimensionally and see it. You could Plane Shift nearby, maybe a couple of miles from the tower and fight your way to it. Or you could Gate there, grab it and Plane Shift back before anyone can do anything about it to stop you.
The precision of Gate can allow you to avoid obstacles and travel you would be forced to make by the randomness of Plane Shift and ensures you do not end up bamfing into a dangerous situation because you can target a safe place you know of. If you need a face-to-face with a contact there you can use the "summon" aspect to summon them and remember when you use this summon part the portal they are brought through remains open so you summon, talk briefly or hand them the package or whatever, and they can step back through the portal to whereever they were. This is useful if you might not know whether they actually were because using Gate this way you don't need to know, you just need to know their name.
You really do not seem to understand just how versatile this spell actually is if you think creatively.
In terms of "getting from A to B" yes, it's weaker than plane shift and gate. The problem here is that - this is not what the spell is designed for. Both Gate and Plane Shift require you to know about the specific destination and have enough awareness to target there. The spell is about exploration not direct travel. It's there to find hidden portals and ways to the planes that might not be known and therefore won't be watched and planes may have deities or rulers that block unsanctioned portals from opening so Gate also becomes useless and they may be forbidden any attunement so no attunement forks. Rare, situational, but possible and Astral Projection can still be a way in. But, it's an adventure in and of itself rather than just "getting there" it gives you the opportunity to enjoy the travel.
Any DM who takes this as an opportunity to throw lots of enemies who "just so happen" to have the means to cut silver cords which is actually intended by designers to be one of the rarest things in all D&D (in previous editions before Gith races there were NO enemies, items, spells or anything except a Psychic Storm that could ever pose a risk to the silver cord) then your DM is a Grade A dick. The whole point of this spell is provide a safer way to travel. You also have to remember that with the exception of Arcana Domain, a Cleric has no same-plane long-distance teleport spells for easy travel. So, if you want to travel from one side of the world to other you either have to burn two high-level slots for two castings of Plane Shift / Gate or you can burn just 1 slot for Astral Projection. It's not instantaneous but it's safer and faster than travelling by foot/horse/ship/etc. And neither gate nor plane shift let you explore and find new places in the Outer Planes and there are some areas of the Outer Planes that cannot be reached by any means except Astral Projection.
It is also worth noting that the means of silvering the silver cord is pretty restricted to very random and exceedingly rare encounters in the Astral Plane. Don't forget you have an oh-shit button because when you do encounter such events rather than risking the cord severance you can just use your action to dismiss the spell and just like that you wake up safe and sound back in your bodies. As per the DMG such encounters should only be occurring after extended stays (multiple days) in the Astral Plane which will be unlikely. If you travel to an Outer Plane via Astral Projection instead of a direct-transport spell like Plane Shift or Gate, you can choose to not teleport your real body and use your astral body instead because the Outer Planes are as much a place of thought and spirit (astral form) as they are physical (physical form). In other words, even after leaving the Astral Plane, the only place with things that can sever the Silver Cord, you can wander those Outer Planes with your Astral Body which means no instant-death and even if you drop to instantly negative 6-million HP, no death at all because you will just wake up in your body. This is covered in the planes information on page 47 of the DMG which has a specific section on Astral Projection detailing this safety feature as why some travellers may prefer Astral Projection over other more direct means.
Also consider we're reviewing the spells here as a package because it's not like you have to pick between them. You can prepare any of them and only for the days you think you may need them. It's not as important of a factor as say for a Sorcerer who can only pick so many spells to know. Even if this spell will never be used in your campaign you can find uses for the other spells. Even if you don't want to prepare any of the spells, the levels 17+ get you a 7th, 8th and 9th level slot you can use to cast lower spells through these higher level slots - multi-target hold person? 8th level spiritual weapon? 9th level inflict wounds? These should also be considered. You're not just getting new spells you have to realise you basically get higher level versions of spells you already have that you may find very useful. But the chances are you will find uses for some of those 9th level spells and being able to use them is a great benefit even if it is only situational. If your ally got disintegrated, well, you have 200 years to come up with the coin for the diamonds and holy water to true res them and that player can play a temp character until you get what you need. If the story arc is over and you're in downtime you can do a time-skip and just say you found the coin (which should be easy for 17+level because the standard gold for an easy-medium encounter for that level is about 7.5k-10.5k gp. More for dragons who are specifically gold hoarders. So, this is why people say components are not much of an issue at high level because it's easy to amass coins from encounters. If you are not getting this then you need to speak with your DM because the component value is based on these standards which your DM is ignoring and therefore should be adjusting the component costs as well to reflect this and maintain balance.
Finally, not all spells need to have super special reasoning and purpose. Sometimes, it's nice to have a spell you can just have fun with. I mean if you feel like a battle royale why you can Astral Project, and there you can battle each other to death without it being actual death - they just wake up in their bodies. If the last one standing is not the caster they just stab themselves in the head - instant success drop to 0 hp. And voila, a completely in-canon battle-to-"death" PVP battle royale. Also a good way to settle disputes between two lug-headed warriors. Also a great way to train in safety.
I've known, but was not playing in, one campaign where they spent a couple of years at 17+ level - the entire campaign lasted over 12 years with weekly to bi-weekly play. Some people do play the long games and I do hope I get to. The DM I currently play with hopes to do so as well. As for the situation well, in one campaign (which I did not stay in very long due to the DM being utterly useless and some players being super ****ery) we were in an underground cave with lava flows and crossing over them involving a check and if you failed you fell in - due to the distance and abundance and flow of lava this would be instant-ash death. We were level 1. At pretty much any encounter you may face trolls or gnolls or goblins or ogres or kobolds or more that on killing you will not stop and would eat you then use your bones for soup. These encounters can occur from level 1 to 20. So it is entirely possible to face these "no body" situations at any level. As for checking with your deity yes it is possible a deity could assist in return for something but treating this as positive "just more opportunity for adventure" instead of just performing the true res and getting the result more directly yourself is a bit odd considering your considerable dislike of Astral Projection which is also "less direct way in favour of more opportunity for adventure". So you're giving mixed-messages here. There's also the possibility the deity will refuse or you fail the mission they give and will now not help you in this request. Some deities are more about you testing and proving yourself worthy of such reward and gaining it where appropriate and may refuse if they do not feel you have grown in your faith enough (i.e. not high enough level) for such reward (i.e. access to true resurrection). A cleric's level progression is not really about their individual skill but rather about their deity rewarding their progress with more power and may not see reason to give you power, not even a single use, until you have progressed enough. Because quite frankly, if a level-reward can be so accessed without gaining those levels then what the fluffing point is there to levelling up? Now, sure, many DMs may find some adventure RP fluff reason to find a way to get a true res for the ally but incur some penalty beyond just the component cost like perhaps you sought somebody who did this for you but you did not realise they are evil and their version of the ceremony allowed them to not just bring back your friend but take over their mind as well, unbeknownst to you so your ally is now working in secret for this evil person and may be forced to betray you at some point. Or perhaps instead of a true res it will be a modified reincarnate bringing them back as a different race or even gender. Or maybe the penalty will be something going wrong and the character brought back loses a level or two similar to resurrections in previous editions. Really, a good DM would seize the opportunity to find some way to make you not want to go through this again because giving you access to 17+ level cleric things when you are not and might never be a 17+ level cleric should have considerable consequences beyond an adventure the dead character's player cannot take part in and some coin for components.
And I appreciate the debate and enjoy this too. Mostly because I'm an argumentative bastage but also because I love talking about this stuff and my ego wanting to be "right" (not that you really can be when considering personal opinions) prompts me to think of creative things. I defend Astral Projection trying to think of creative uses when honestly, I also would probably never use this spell. It's just fun to come up with the ideas and talk about it, though.
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I've been enjoying reading the discussion as well. Cyb3rM1nd, you make some excellent points about the straightforward, and more creative, ways to use the spells in the Clerics 9th level list. I hope that I get to try some of those things when my Cleric gets to those high levels.
However, I definitely have a similar feeling as Slain000 when looking at the top tier Cleric spells. They are extremely powerful spells, don't get me wrong, but they just aren't "destination" or "signature" spells. I'm not going to choose to play a Cleric for the 8th and 9th level spells. I would choose to play a Druid for Shapechange, which, by chance, also gets me True Res.
They are all highly situational spells that, frankly, just aren't that fun to cast. I give that drowning an undead BBEG in holy water is an amazing use of Gate, but if your DM's homebrew story setting doesn't support a lot of Plane hopping, then literally half of a Cleric's 9th level spells are effectively useless. Not to mention that you have to have a particularly strong reason to need a True Res.
Yes, I know that resurrecting a dear friend, family member, epic hero, etc. is an amazing ability. When I say they aren't that fun to cast, I mean that I can't just go into an encounter and drop a Meteor Storm on a dragon, or Shapechange/Polymorph into a giant or dragon, or roll a Tsunami over the battlefield, or Dominate a Monster to do my bidding, or Polymorph my entire team into dolphins for some sea-based shenanigans. Even if the RP is great, with lots of planning and tears and hand-wringing, to go into a True Res, etc. you ultimately have a ritual spell that you can MAYBE use once in a campaign.
I think that if each Domain could gain one appropriate spell at the 6th - 9th levels, or even just one capstone 9th level spell, it would go a long way to satisfy this perceived "boringness." For example, why wouldn't a 17th level Tempest Cleric gain access to Storm of Vengeance?
For example:
The Forge Domain is the only Domain for which I can't think up a capstone 9th level spell from the existing list of spells. It would be easy enough to come up with a new weapon or armor based 9th level spell, though.
Is that how multiclass spell slots work? Pretty amazing.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
This is true. decide if you want to play someone with a couple of low level wizarding mixed in, or if you want to play someone who has some really powerful cleric abilities.