Just learning 5e now, questions about my holy symbol being a "spellcasting focus"...
1. I can slap the holy symbol on my shield, and that counts for spellcasting? 2. Do I still need a free hand to cast spells requiring "Somatic," or do I need to stow my mace to free up that hand? 3. Is my holy symbol a complete substitute for any "Materials" I may need to cast my spells?
1. Yes, a shield with an emblem can be used as a holy symbol for spellcasting
2. If the spell requires both somatic and material components, then you do not need to drop anything. If it requires a somatic component but no material, then a free hand is needed. This can mostly be circumvented by dropping the mace (free action) then picking it up after you cast (item interaction)
3. The holy symbol covers all material items EXCEPT those that have a gold cost (ex: a ruby worth at least 50gp) or if the spell says the material is consumed (like protection vs good and evil)
2. If the spell requires both somatic and material components, then you do not need to drop anything. If it requires a somatic component but no material, then a free hand is needed. This can mostly be circumvented by dropping the mace (free action) then picking it up after you cast (item interaction)
Can you give me an easy way to remember this? I'm trying to find some way to visualize the logic behind S&M being fine with both hands full, but S by itself requiring a free hand.
Also, is dropping considered the same as sheathing/stowing? Would I be able to drop/sheath/stow and re-arm myself in the same turn? I wouldn't want to drop my weapon, then have to wait until my next turn to pick it up & hope that in the meantime my opponent doesn't decide to just kick it away.
I don't really understand it either, but I guess when the material is actively channeling the spell, waving it around is good enough? Maybe spells with only somatic components require more intricate hand gestures? Apparently it's enough of a difference to warrant a bullet in the War Caster feat. As I said, I struggled to understand why this was a thing but just accepted it because...them's the rules, I guess.
As for dropping, it is not the same as sheathing/stowing. The former is a free action while the latter is an item interaction. You only get one item interaction per turn, which is why switching weapons mid combat can really eat into your action economy. But dropping is NOT an item interaction! Not sure why, but it allows you to simply drop a weapon, cast a spell, then pick up the same weapon all on one turn.
I find it easiest to remove the S from any spell that also has an M - a VSM becomes a VM, and an SM becomes an M. The S in those spells almost never has a meaning since the material and somatic stuff uses the same hand. Then things become a bit easier. An S or VS spell needs an empty hand, while an M or VM spell can be cast with your holy shield focus as the M(aterial).
My home rules state that while dropping is a free action, you can't pick up that same object this turn with your object interaction. I like that casting some spells forces a trade-off on equipment for a turn, and I think routinely dropping your weapon and stooping down to retrieve it is a singularly unheroic way to fight a battle.
Most shields would be strapped to your arm. You can't use it effectively without your hand, but you wouldnt have to drop it. Couldn't you surrender your shield bonus for the turn and use that hand? Seems like a common sense solution to me, without the anti immersive dropping and picking up a weapon all time.
It mostly depends on how your GM rules it. As per RAW, you can cast any spell that has M component with the Holy Shield, even if it has S component. But S only is not a possibility.
War Caster is a means to fully remove that problem and it also grants bonuses to the upkeep of Concentration on spells.
But honestly, most of the spells you would use during combat, where having both hands occupied is the case, don't have the S component without the M as well. Like quick look through the list for level 1 spells returned maybe Cure Wounds as the most important. But then you have Healing Word which lets you still boop baddies with your mace. From level 2 the most important that you cannot cast with both hands occupied would be Lesser Restoration or perhaps Spiritual Weapon. Other you cannot cast are Find Traps, Calm Emotions, various protections, a few Concentration spells. So technically anything that you can cast in peace.
Or if you wanted to get around the silliness of dropping the weapon to the ground and then picking it up afterwards just to fit the action economy, you could just use your action to sheathe/stow the weapon on the round when you cast the spell. It's not like you're likely to be casting and using your attack on the same round. The exception here would be opportunity attacks, but it's a trade-off of atmosphere versus a numerical advantage all the time. Plus, if you're flying or wading through water, dropping a weapon might be a problem for recovering it. The kobold readies an action to pick up the weapon as soon as it is dropped.
Or if you wanted to get around the silliness of dropping the weapon to the ground and then picking it up afterwards just to fit the action economy, you could just use your action to sheathe/stow the weapon on the round when you cast the spell. It's not like you're likely to be casting and using your attack on the same round. The exception here would be opportunity attacks, but it's a trade-off of atmosphere versus a numerical advantage all the time. Plus, if you're flying or wading through water, dropping a weapon might be a problem for recovering it. The kobold readies an action to pick up the weapon as soon as it is dropped.
It's not a bad idea, considering you can fit the sheathing and drawing of the weapon within the move action, which is clearly stated in the rules.
2. If the spell requires both somatic and material components, then you do not need to drop anything. If it requires a somatic component but no material, then a free hand is needed. This can mostly be circumvented by dropping the mace (free action) then picking it up after you cast (item interaction)
Do you have a reference for this? I must be overlooking it.
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry[...]A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
So, a somatic component requires a free hand. However, when a material component is involved, the material can be held in that "free" hand. Like I said, I sort of get it but it seems sort of arbitrary. To be honest, I just ignore it in the game I DM and don't check my players on that sort of stuff.
This has always seemed to be an asinine argument as Clerics & Paladins have always been--and are meant to be--up in the thick of battle casting freely. The RAW even goes out of its way to show this by showing that holy symbols are a distinct form of spellcasting focus that has more utility.
Also by RAW, any hand wielding a focus can use that hand for somatic components. I am aware that Jeremy Crawford has tweeted about the whole "foci only work for S component when the spell also has M component" debate, and I disagree with him completely. Sorry Jeremy, it's bleeping ridiculous. If the rules allow for you to use a focus-wielding hand for S components, that's the end of it. You cannot say with a straight face, "Damn this VS spell with less requirements than the VSM one I just did won't work until I stow my shield."
There are no concrete rules about the complexity of somatic components beyond the generic baseline of flapping your arm around. However, it can be inferred that Cleric/Paladin S components are simple enough that they can be done while holding a shield. If you can trace a pentagram in the air with your shield arm on a VSM spell, you can do it on a VS spell just as easily, and there is no need to take War Caster in these circumstances.
Now there certainly are instances where War Caster is absolutely necessary to make this work. I see the point of War Caster as being designed for the martial classes that have casting subclass features, for other pure casters that want to do a 1H & Shield combo, or for ANYONE wanting to do two-weapon fighting while spellcasting.
Does not need War Caster:
Any class using a 1H & Focus
Cleric/Paladin with 1H & Shield
Any class with 1H & Shield where either item has been modified to act as a focus (Campaign dependent)
Any class using a two-handed weapon (offhand essentially always available)
Any class using only a focus
Any class that has one hand not wielding anything
Does need War Caster:
Any non-Cleric/Paladin with 1H & Shield
Any class that is dual-wielding
Any one-armed non-Cleric/Paladin wielding anything other than a focus
Any one-armed Cleric/Paladin wielding anything other than a shield.
Bending over backwards to distinguish Cleric/Paladin as front-line casters, yet still requiring they sacrifice an ASI/Feat in order to cover a handful of spells that happen to fall in a weird linguistic dead zone is bleeping ridiculous. If you go by Jeremy's tweet, it is a literal "feat tax" to fix something that all Clerics & Paladins should be able to do out of the box at level 1 (2 for Paladin). It would make far more sense to just explicitly include this as a base class feature for Cleric & Paladin.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I think it also depends on what the nature of the gestural component actually is. If it's as simple as just pointing at your target, what's stopping you from just pointing with the mace you're holding instead of finger-guns?
1. Yes, a shield with an emblem can be used as a holy symbol for spellcasting
2. If the spell requires both somatic and material components, then you do not need to drop anything. I
I don't think this is correct.
If a spell has M but not S components then you don't need a free hand because "the caster must hold it [the holy symbol] in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield." [PHB].
But if it has S components, you need a hand free to perform them. The rule about "the same hand" is just saying that a spell with both M and S only needs 1 free hand, not 2.
So, if a spell has both M and S, you need a free hand. Or the "drop then pickup" tactic. Or, if you are a swashbucking type of Cleric - "I throw my warhammer spinning into the air, cast my spell, then catch the hammer as it falls."
This has always seemed to be an asinine argument as Clerics & Paladins have always been--and are meant to be--up in the thick of battle casting freely. The RAW even goes out of its way to show this by showing that holy symbols are a distinct form of spellcasting focus that has more utility.
Also by RAW, any hand wielding a focus can use that hand for somatic components. I am aware that Jeremy Crawford has tweeted about the whole "foci only work for S component when the spell also has M component" debate, and I disagree with him completely. Sorry Jeremy, it's bleeping ridiculous. If the rules allow for you to use a focus-wielding hand for S components, that's the end of it. You cannot say with a straight face, "Damn this VS spell with less requirements than the VSM one I just did won't work until I stow my shield."
There are no concrete rules about the complexity of somatic components beyond the generic baseline of flapping your arm around. However, it can be inferred that Cleric/Paladin S components are simple enough that they can be done while holding a shield. If you can trace a pentagram in the air with your shield arm on a VSM spell, you can do it on a VS spell just as easily, and there is no need to take War Caster in these circumstances.
Now there certainly are instances where War Caster is absolutely necessary to make this work. I see the point of War Caster as being designed for the martial classes that have casting subclass features, for other pure casters that want to do a 1H & Shield combo, or for ANYONE wanting to do two-weapon fighting while spellcasting.
Does not need War Caster:
Any class using a 1H & Focus
Cleric/Paladin with 1H & Shield
Any class with 1H & Shield where either item has been modified to act as a focus (Campaign dependent)
Any class using a two-handed weapon (offhand essentially always available)
Any class using only a focus
Any class that has one hand not wielding anything
Does need War Caster:
Any non-Cleric/Paladin with 1H & Shield
Any class that is dual-wielding
Any one-armed non-Cleric/Paladin wielding anything other than a focus
Any one-armed Cleric/Paladin wielding anything other than a shield.
Bending over backwards to distinguish Cleric/Paladin as front-line casters, yet still requiring they sacrifice an ASI/Feat in order to cover a handful of spells that happen to fall in a weird linguistic dead zone is bleeping ridiculous. If you go by Jeremy's tweet, it is a literal "feat tax" to fix something that all Clerics & Paladins should be able to do out of the box at level 1 (2 for Paladin). It would make far more sense to just explicitly include this as a base class feature for Cleric & Paladin.
This is just wrong. No rules basis for the above distinctions.
I'll also note that the War caster feat is hardly a tax.
Not all clerics are dedicated casters and not all clerics prefer to fight from melee. You don't have to take the feat. It's good for melee casters, but it's not mandatory.
Just learning 5e now, questions about my holy symbol being a "spellcasting focus"...
1. I can slap the holy symbol on my shield, and that counts for spellcasting? 2. Do I still need a free hand to cast spells requiring "Somatic," or do I need to stow my mace to free up that hand? 3. Is my holy symbol a complete substitute for any "Materials" I may need to cast my spells?
1: PH says, under the equipment's description of the holy symbol that it must be Held in hand, worn visibly, or beared on your shield to be used as a spellcasting focus for clerics and paladins.
So, yes, you can attach it to your shield.
2: PH is pretty clear that a free hand is required to "hold" the focus. The War Caster feat removes this requirement. The PH is unclear how the use options listed for holy symbols in equipment relates to the focus rules in the spellcasting section.
So, yes, you need a free hand unless you take the War Caster feat.
3: PH is more vague on this point, but it is very clear that a focus can't replace materials that list a cost. It's also unclear if the focus is consumed if used in place of consumed components or if it can't be used to replace non-monetary components.
So, no, the holy symbol can't entirely replace material components.
I will note that there are a good number of Verbal-only cleric spells, Like Command, which are very viable.
To clarify this case, I have reached out to Jeremy Crawford once through Twitter. The answer given was more or less like this, as sady I cannot find it right now to quote.
Rules influencing the Cleric in terms of casting with a Shield and a Weapon are as follows:
Cleric can substitute Divine Focus for Material Components required to cast a spell.
Divine Focus can be a symbol of their deity painted or engraved into a shield.
The same hand holding the focus can be used to perform the somatic components of a spell.
Special Material components still need to be in the Cleric's posession when casting the spell.
As such, any spell that has both Material and Somatic components, can be cast with Sword'n'Board in hands. Any spell that has no Material but has Somatic components cannot. Warcaster fixes all problems of said Cleric as well as giving them Advantage on saving throws to uphold a lot o the basic Cleric buff spells.
To clarify this case, I have reached out to Jeremy Crawford once through Twitter. The answer given was more or less like this, as sady I cannot find it right now to quote.
Rules influencing the Cleric in terms of casting with a Shield and a Weapon are as follows:
Cleric can substitute Divine Focus for Material Components required to cast a spell.
Divine Focus can be a symbol of their deity painted or engraved into a shield.
The same hand holding the focus can be used to perform the somatic components of a spell.
Special Material components still need to be in the Cleric's posession when casting the spell.
As such, any spell that has both Material and Somatic components, can be cast with Sword'n'Board in hands. Any spell that has no Material but has Somatic components cannot. Warcaster fixes all problems of said Cleric as well as giving them Advantage on saving throws to uphold a lot o the basic Cleric buff spells.
I make a different conclusion from the same information. If you'll allow me to paraphrase, your interpretation appears to be:
Your holy symbol is the mark placed upon your shield, serving as a spellcasting focus
While bearing your shield, your spellcasting focus can be used to cover (non-special) material spellcasting components
While bearing your shield, your spellcasting focus can be used to cover (non-special) material AND somatic spellcasting components, when bothare required for the spell
Your spellcasting focus cannot be used to cover somatic components if there is no (non-special) material spellcasting component
This implies there are two types of somatic components, somatic with material and somatic without material. Why can you waggle your shield around sometimes but not others?
To contrast, my interpretation is:
Placing your holy symbol upon your shield makesyour shield a spellcasting focus
Your spellcasting focus can be used to cover (non-special) material spellcasting components
Your spellcasting focus can be used to cover (non-special) material AND your hand remains free to cast somatic spellcasting components, when both are required for the spell
Your hand holding a shield can be used to perform somatic components IF your shield is also your spellcasting focus
Material (M) (p. 203). The final paragraph now reads as follows: “A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components—or to hold a spellcasting focus—but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.”
To paraphrase, holding a spellcasting focus does not inhibit your ability to perform somatic components with that hand.
So ordinarily your free hand would be occupied by the spellcasting focus/holy symbol, and this hand can still be used to perform somatic components. If your shield becomesyour spellcasting focus, then holding it would still allow you to use that same hand for somatic components.
Jeremy Crawford seems to indicate the somatic component is performed by gesturing with the shield and shield arm [LINK]:
You still need use of the shield arm to move it while performing the somatic component.
I've always seen this as an advantage for Paladins and Clerics, other classes have to take upgrades to acquire the same feature (either the War Caster feat or Warlocks taking the 'Improved Pact Weapon' invocation)
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Just learning 5e now, questions about my holy symbol being a "spellcasting focus"...
1. I can slap the holy symbol on my shield, and that counts for spellcasting?
2. Do I still need a free hand to cast spells requiring "Somatic," or do I need to stow my mace to free up that hand?
3. Is my holy symbol a complete substitute for any "Materials" I may need to cast my spells?
To answer your questions in order:
1. Yes, a shield with an emblem can be used as a holy symbol for spellcasting
2. If the spell requires both somatic and material components, then you do not need to drop anything. If it requires a somatic component but no material, then a free hand is needed. This can mostly be circumvented by dropping the mace (free action) then picking it up after you cast (item interaction)
3. The holy symbol covers all material items EXCEPT those that have a gold cost (ex: a ruby worth at least 50gp) or if the spell says the material is consumed (like protection vs good and evil)
Can you give me an easy way to remember this? I'm trying to find some way to visualize the logic behind S&M being fine with both hands full, but S by itself requiring a free hand.
Also, is dropping considered the same as sheathing/stowing? Would I be able to drop/sheath/stow and re-arm myself in the same turn? I wouldn't want to drop my weapon, then have to wait until my next turn to pick it up & hope that in the meantime my opponent doesn't decide to just kick it away.
I don't really understand it either, but I guess when the material is actively channeling the spell, waving it around is good enough? Maybe spells with only somatic components require more intricate hand gestures? Apparently it's enough of a difference to warrant a bullet in the War Caster feat. As I said, I struggled to understand why this was a thing but just accepted it because...them's the rules, I guess.
As for dropping, it is not the same as sheathing/stowing. The former is a free action while the latter is an item interaction. You only get one item interaction per turn, which is why switching weapons mid combat can really eat into your action economy. But dropping is NOT an item interaction! Not sure why, but it allows you to simply drop a weapon, cast a spell, then pick up the same weapon all on one turn.
Ok, I think I've got a way to remember since neither of us can pin down the logic..
S&M = Shield & Mace.
S only = Shield only.
Or if your game allows feats take the war caster feat and never worry about it again.
I find it easiest to remove the S from any spell that also has an M - a VSM becomes a VM, and an SM becomes an M. The S in those spells almost never has a meaning since the material and somatic stuff uses the same hand. Then things become a bit easier. An S or VS spell needs an empty hand, while an M or VM spell can be cast with your holy shield focus as the M(aterial).
My home rules state that while dropping is a free action, you can't pick up that same object this turn with your object interaction. I like that casting some spells forces a trade-off on equipment for a turn, and I think routinely dropping your weapon and stooping down to retrieve it is a singularly unheroic way to fight a battle.
Most shields would be strapped to your arm. You can't use it effectively without your hand, but you wouldnt have to drop it. Couldn't you surrender your shield bonus for the turn and use that hand? Seems like a common sense solution to me, without the anti immersive dropping and picking up a weapon all time.
It mostly depends on how your GM rules it. As per RAW, you can cast any spell that has M component with the Holy Shield, even if it has S component. But S only is not a possibility.
War Caster is a means to fully remove that problem and it also grants bonuses to the upkeep of Concentration on spells.
But honestly, most of the spells you would use during combat, where having both hands occupied is the case, don't have the S component without the M as well. Like quick look through the list for level 1 spells returned maybe Cure Wounds as the most important. But then you have Healing Word which lets you still boop baddies with your mace. From level 2 the most important that you cannot cast with both hands occupied would be Lesser Restoration or perhaps Spiritual Weapon. Other you cannot cast are Find Traps, Calm Emotions, various protections, a few Concentration spells. So technically anything that you can cast in peace.
Or if you wanted to get around the silliness of dropping the weapon to the ground and then picking it up afterwards just to fit the action economy, you could just use your action to sheathe/stow the weapon on the round when you cast the spell. It's not like you're likely to be casting and using your attack on the same round. The exception here would be opportunity attacks, but it's a trade-off of atmosphere versus a numerical advantage all the time. Plus, if you're flying or wading through water, dropping a weapon might be a problem for recovering it. The kobold readies an action to pick up the weapon as soon as it is dropped.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It's not a bad idea, considering you can fit the sheathing and drawing of the weapon within the move action, which is clearly stated in the rules.
Do you have a reference for this? I must be overlooking it.
Here are quotes from the PHB:
So, a somatic component requires a free hand. However, when a material component is involved, the material can be held in that "free" hand. Like I said, I sort of get it but it seems sort of arbitrary. To be honest, I just ignore it in the game I DM and don't check my players on that sort of stuff.
This has always seemed to be an asinine argument as Clerics & Paladins have always been--and are meant to be--up in the thick of battle casting freely. The RAW even goes out of its way to show this by showing that holy symbols are a distinct form of spellcasting focus that has more utility.
Also by RAW, any hand wielding a focus can use that hand for somatic components. I am aware that Jeremy Crawford has tweeted about the whole "foci only work for S component when the spell also has M component" debate, and I disagree with him completely. Sorry Jeremy, it's bleeping ridiculous. If the rules allow for you to use a focus-wielding hand for S components, that's the end of it. You cannot say with a straight face, "Damn this VS spell with less requirements than the VSM one I just did won't work until I stow my shield."
There are no concrete rules about the complexity of somatic components beyond the generic baseline of flapping your arm around. However, it can be inferred that Cleric/Paladin S components are simple enough that they can be done while holding a shield. If you can trace a pentagram in the air with your shield arm on a VSM spell, you can do it on a VS spell just as easily, and there is no need to take War Caster in these circumstances.
Now there certainly are instances where War Caster is absolutely necessary to make this work. I see the point of War Caster as being designed for the martial classes that have casting subclass features, for other pure casters that want to do a 1H & Shield combo, or for ANYONE wanting to do two-weapon fighting while spellcasting.
Does not need War Caster:
Does need War Caster:
Bending over backwards to distinguish Cleric/Paladin as front-line casters, yet still requiring they sacrifice an ASI/Feat in order to cover a handful of spells that happen to fall in a weird linguistic dead zone is bleeping ridiculous. If you go by Jeremy's tweet, it is a literal "feat tax" to fix something that all Clerics & Paladins should be able to do out of the box at level 1 (2 for Paladin). It would make far more sense to just explicitly include this as a base class feature for Cleric & Paladin.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I think it also depends on what the nature of the gestural component actually is. If it's as simple as just pointing at your target, what's stopping you from just pointing with the mace you're holding instead of finger-guns?
I don't think this is correct.
If a spell has M but not S components then you don't need a free hand because "the caster must hold it [the holy symbol] in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield." [PHB].
But if it has S components, you need a hand free to perform them. The rule about "the same hand" is just saying that a spell with both M and S only needs 1 free hand, not 2.
So, if a spell has both M and S, you need a free hand. Or the "drop then pickup" tactic. Or, if you are a swashbucking type of Cleric - "I throw my warhammer spinning into the air, cast my spell, then catch the hammer as it falls."
This is just wrong. No rules basis for the above distinctions.
I'll also note that the War caster feat is hardly a tax.
Not all clerics are dedicated casters and not all clerics prefer to fight from melee. You don't have to take the feat. It's good for melee casters, but it's not mandatory.
1: PH says, under the equipment's description of the holy symbol that it must be Held in hand, worn visibly, or beared on your shield to be used as a spellcasting focus for clerics and paladins.
So, yes, you can attach it to your shield.
2: PH is pretty clear that a free hand is required to "hold" the focus. The War Caster feat removes this requirement. The PH is unclear how the use options listed for holy symbols in equipment relates to the focus rules in the spellcasting section.
So, yes, you need a free hand unless you take the War Caster feat.
3: PH is more vague on this point, but it is very clear that a focus can't replace materials that list a cost. It's also unclear if the focus is consumed if used in place of consumed components or if it can't be used to replace non-monetary components.
So, no, the holy symbol can't entirely replace material components.
I will note that there are a good number of Verbal-only cleric spells, Like Command, which are very viable.
To clarify this case, I have reached out to Jeremy Crawford once through Twitter. The answer given was more or less like this, as sady I cannot find it right now to quote.
Rules influencing the Cleric in terms of casting with a Shield and a Weapon are as follows:
As such, any spell that has both Material and Somatic components, can be cast with Sword'n'Board in hands. Any spell that has no Material but has Somatic components cannot. Warcaster fixes all problems of said Cleric as well as giving them Advantage on saving throws to uphold a lot o the basic Cleric buff spells.
I make a different conclusion from the same information. If you'll allow me to paraphrase, your interpretation appears to be:
This implies there are two types of somatic components, somatic with material and somatic without material. Why can you waggle your shield around sometimes but not others?
To contrast, my interpretation is:
From the PHB errata:
To paraphrase, holding a spellcasting focus does not inhibit your ability to perform somatic components with that hand.
So ordinarily your free hand would be occupied by the spellcasting focus/holy symbol, and this hand can still be used to perform somatic components. If your shield becomes your spellcasting focus, then holding it would still allow you to use that same hand for somatic components.
Jeremy Crawford seems to indicate the somatic component is performed by gesturing with the shield and shield arm [LINK]:
I've always seen this as an advantage for Paladins and Clerics, other classes have to take upgrades to acquire the same feature (either the War Caster feat or Warlocks taking the 'Improved Pact Weapon' invocation)