Don't forget bleed over damage. Plus RAW any healing done to the bear form does not heal the druid himself just the form.
While that's true, the problem with the level 20 druid is that they can wildshape infinitely, so can refresh their wild shape every turn if they need to. This means that to inflict bleed over damage you need to deal that damage in a single turn (and some forms can have 100+ HP); high level casters should be able to do it, but the other problem with a level 20 Druid is that they are also a high level caster themselves, so they can do the same thing right back at you. This means that in a war of attrition they can deal the same kind of damage (albeit skipping turns to shift) while taking far less damage in return.
It's a weirdly OP feature, but then at level 20 it's in good company with other OP nonsense; it seems strange that it's not still tied to a resource, such as a hit dice, as that'd still be a huge number of wild shapes, but with a cost later down the line when you want to take a short rest.
Don't forget bleed over damage. Plus RAW any healing done to the bear form does not heal the druid himself just the form.
While that's true, the problem with the level 20 druid is that they can wildshape infinitely, so can refresh their wild shape every turn if they need to. This means that to inflict bleed over damage you need to deal that damage in a single turn (and some forms can have 100+ HP); high level casters should be able to do it, but the other problem with a level 20 Druid is that they are also a high level caster themselves, so they can do the same thing right back at you. This means that in a war of attrition they can deal the same kind of damage (albeit skipping turns to shift) while taking far less damage in return.
It's a weirdly OP feature, but then at level 20 it's in good company with other OP nonsense; it seems strange that it's not still tied to a resource, such as a hit dice, as that'd still be a huge number of wild shapes, but with a cost later down the line when you want to take a short rest.
You don't have to do the damage in one turn. You get the bear form low on hp, then hit him hard. He can only heal so much with "combat wild shape" also he cannot "reset" his health unless he uses his bonus action (revert) and his action (wild shape). Which takes his full turn and does nothing.
Healing in dnd is not to keep you on top health, but not dead.
You don't have to do the damage in one turn. You get the bear form low on hp, then hit him hard. He can only heal so much with "combat wild shape" also he cannot "reset" his health unless he uses his bonus action (revert) and his action (wild shape). Which takes his full turn and does nothing.
Healing in dnd is not to keep you on top health, but not dead.
You're dismissing the very problem that people are trying to solve though; reverting and changing back might waste one turn, but it wastes their enemy's even more as they've just spent one (or more) turns doing damage to a wild-shape that's just been reset as if nothing had happened, and the Druid can do this infinitely. If they're fighting another caster then it's a simple war of attrition, as the other caster will run out of spells unless they use only cantrips (or very specific combos that have a chance of bypassing this exploit).
While a martial enemy like a fighter might be able to fight on without worrying about resources, unless they're doing enough damage in a single turn to inflict excess damage on the Druid themselves, then the Druid won't need to refresh their wild shape every turn. For example, if the Druid only needs to refresh their wild-shape every second turn, then they are still able to inflict damage on the fighter, meanwhile if the fighter doesn't manage to cause any bleed over then the Druid simply resets and repeats.
That doesn't solve the problem if it only results in a stalemate (question is how to kill the druid).
It also doesn't necessarily result in a stalemate; if a Circle of the Moon Druid transforms into a Fire Elemental for example then they can deal repeating damage simply by moving, so they can do that in addition to resetting their health. If the monster deals any kind of elemental damage they also can still cast Absorb Elements as a reaction to reduce damage they take.
This is also assuming no preparation; if that Druid cast Foresight on themselves then they're not going to be as easily hit, and Antipathy/Sympathy could be used to repel an enemy that you expect to face (succeeding on the save only gives immunity for one minute, so in a stalemate situation the enemy will eventually fail and move away, triggering an attack of opportunity and giving the druid a chance to deal even more damage). Those are just two that don't require concentration, there are other options that do (though they risk concentration loss).
Even if you can deal excess damage, that only serves to end the wild-shape for the Druid (which actually works in their favour as it saves them an action, so they can transform back and still do something else, i.e- deal far more damage in return), so while they'd be taking some damage each turn, they're ignoring a huge chunk of it compared to various other temporary HP every turn abilities. This is the problem; it's very difficult to overcome a druid using this (intentional?) exploit without using some kind of trick of your own, which usually means Power Word Kill.
Yeah level 20 Druids (especially Moon) are pretty hard to kill. Stunning/Incapacitating is generally the best strat as you can take away their ability to re-up the shape.
Anti-Magic Field would be another way to draw them out of their shape.
Dont forget, u can also cast Anti-magic field or dispel magic, as it counts as a magical feature.
The post immediately before yours, even if it was posted over 2 years ago mentioned anti magic field. Dispel magic would not affect wildshape as it only affects spells
I know the name is misleading but if you want to say the name is enough you get into difficulty in deciding how dispel magic work on it. Say you cast dispell magic at level 3. Dispel magic only automatically ends a spell of 3rd level and can end a spell of 4th level or higher if you pass an ability check with a DC set by the level of the spell. No mention is made to it impacting other magical effects and if it could work on wild shape you then need to know whether it is automatic or whether an ability check is required (and if the later at what level)
Dont forget, u can also cast Anti-magic field or dispel magic, as it counts as a magical feature.
The post immediately before yours, even if it was posted over 2 years ago mentioned anti magic field. Dispel magic would not affect wildshape as it only affects spells
I know the name is misleading but if you want to say the name is enough you get into difficulty in deciding how dispel magic work on it. Say you cast dispell magic at level 3. Dispel magic only automatically ends a spell of 3rd level and can end a spell of 4th level or higher if you pass an ability check with a DC set by the level of the spell. No mention is made to it impacting other magical effects and if it could work on wild shape you then need to know whether it is automatic or whether an ability check is required (and if the later at what level)
The weirdest part of this is that you can target effects that aren't spells with dispel magic, but there's no text in the spell saying what happens if you do.
The weirdest part of this is that you can target effects that aren't spells with dispel magic, but there's no text in the spell saying what happens if you do.
Nothing unfortunately, as the effect of dispel magic is only to end a spell. I've never particularly liked that personally, as there are loads of monsters that deal spell-like effects that dispel magic simply doesn't work against in Rules As Written, my groups tend to be more lenient about how to use it, especially with Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Multiverse removing huge numbers of proper spells from enemies in favour of spell-like (but not spell) actions.
Mutant Bloodhunters get an ability at level 11 that can mess with a target's ability to transform. They have to make a wisdom save every time they try to change their shape, and if they fail, they're stunned until the end of their next turn. The bloodhunter can only apply it once per short rest, but it lasts indefinitely once they use it until they dismiss it or use it against another creature. It can be dispelled with Dispel Magic, but the level needed to dispel it increases as the bloodhunter gains levels.
I've used that ability to wreck Strahd von Zarovich to keep him from transforming to get away from my character, and it should work on shapeshifted druids as well.
You could have a combat where an enemy with at least 11 bloodhunter levels hits the Druid with any weapon attack, putting that ability on them, and then have them bug out of combat. This way, the druid has this mark until they dispel it, or kill the bloodhunter.
While that's true, the problem with the level 20 druid is that they can wildshape infinitely, so can refresh their wild shape every turn if they need to. This means that to inflict bleed over damage you need to deal that damage in a single turn (and some forms can have 100+ HP); high level casters should be able to do it, but the other problem with a level 20 Druid is that they are also a high level caster themselves, so they can do the same thing right back at you. This means that in a war of attrition they can deal the same kind of damage (albeit skipping turns to shift) while taking far less damage in return.
It's a weirdly OP feature, but then at level 20 it's in good company with other OP nonsense; it seems strange that it's not still tied to a resource, such as a hit dice, as that'd still be a huge number of wild shapes, but with a cost later down the line when you want to take a short rest.
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You don't have to do the damage in one turn. You get the bear form low on hp, then hit him hard. He can only heal so much with "combat wild shape" also he cannot "reset" his health unless he uses his bonus action (revert) and his action (wild shape). Which takes his full turn and does nothing.
Healing in dnd is not to keep you on top health, but not dead.
You're dismissing the very problem that people are trying to solve though; reverting and changing back might waste one turn, but it wastes their enemy's even more as they've just spent one (or more) turns doing damage to a wild-shape that's just been reset as if nothing had happened, and the Druid can do this infinitely. If they're fighting another caster then it's a simple war of attrition, as the other caster will run out of spells unless they use only cantrips (or very specific combos that have a chance of bypassing this exploit).
While a martial enemy like a fighter might be able to fight on without worrying about resources, unless they're doing enough damage in a single turn to inflict excess damage on the Druid themselves, then the Druid won't need to refresh their wild shape every turn. For example, if the Druid only needs to refresh their wild-shape every second turn, then they are still able to inflict damage on the fighter, meanwhile if the fighter doesn't manage to cause any bleed over then the Druid simply resets and repeats.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I was explaining that you don't have to do it all in one turn. Then I went to explain how a player may counter that idea. I didn't say it was perfect.
Let's look at it like this:
Druid attacks (He is in form already)
Monster deals 80% damage.
Druid has the choose of reseting or attacking.
(If He attacks)
Monster deals 20% to the form and bleed over to the main body.
(If he resets)
Monster deals 80% damage to the wildshape. And takes no damage from the druid.
...
This is completely hypothetical, but if the Monster can do over 50% damage to the wild shape each turn. He can hold out.
That doesn't solve the problem if it only results in a stalemate (question is how to kill the druid).
It also doesn't necessarily result in a stalemate; if a Circle of the Moon Druid transforms into a Fire Elemental for example then they can deal repeating damage simply by moving, so they can do that in addition to resetting their health. If the monster deals any kind of elemental damage they also can still cast Absorb Elements as a reaction to reduce damage they take.
This is also assuming no preparation; if that Druid cast Foresight on themselves then they're not going to be as easily hit, and Antipathy/Sympathy could be used to repel an enemy that you expect to face (succeeding on the save only gives immunity for one minute, so in a stalemate situation the enemy will eventually fail and move away, triggering an attack of opportunity and giving the druid a chance to deal even more damage). Those are just two that don't require concentration, there are other options that do (though they risk concentration loss).
Even if you can deal excess damage, that only serves to end the wild-shape for the Druid (which actually works in their favour as it saves them an action, so they can transform back and still do something else, i.e- deal far more damage in return), so while they'd be taking some damage each turn, they're ignoring a huge chunk of it compared to various other temporary HP every turn abilities. This is the problem; it's very difficult to overcome a druid using this (intentional?) exploit without using some kind of trick of your own, which usually means Power Word Kill.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Now you are bringing to many variables, thus making this or any topic unanswerable. That's why you have to eliminate such things.
I proposed an idea that could work. And it seems that you are ignoring the point.
Keep in mind that any wildshape does not gain any benefits from items like armor.
Yeah level 20 Druids (especially Moon) are pretty hard to kill. Stunning/Incapacitating is generally the best strat as you can take away their ability to re-up the shape.
Anti-Magic Field would be another way to draw them out of their shape.
Dont forget, u can also cast Anti-magic field or dispel magic, as it counts as a magical feature.
The post immediately before yours, even if it was posted over 2 years ago mentioned anti magic field. Dispel magic would not affect wildshape as it only affects spells
I know the name is misleading but if you want to say the name is enough you get into difficulty in deciding how dispel magic work on it.
Say you cast dispell magic at level 3. Dispel magic only automatically ends a spell of 3rd level and can end a spell of 4th level or higher if you pass an ability check with a DC set by the level of the spell. No mention is made to it impacting other magical effects and if it could work on wild shape you then need to know whether it is automatic or whether an ability check is required (and if the later at what level)
The weirdest part of this is that you can target effects that aren't spells with dispel magic, but there's no text in the spell saying what happens if you do.
Nothing unfortunately, as the effect of dispel magic is only to end a spell. I've never particularly liked that personally, as there are loads of monsters that deal spell-like effects that dispel magic simply doesn't work against in Rules As Written, my groups tend to be more lenient about how to use it, especially with Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Multiverse removing huge numbers of proper spells from enemies in favour of spell-like (but not spell) actions.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Mutant Bloodhunters get an ability at level 11 that can mess with a target's ability to transform. They have to make a wisdom save every time they try to change their shape, and if they fail, they're stunned until the end of their next turn. The bloodhunter can only apply it once per short rest, but it lasts indefinitely once they use it until they dismiss it or use it against another creature. It can be dispelled with Dispel Magic, but the level needed to dispel it increases as the bloodhunter gains levels.
I've used that ability to wreck Strahd von Zarovich to keep him from transforming to get away from my character, and it should work on shapeshifted druids as well.
You could have a combat where an enemy with at least 11 bloodhunter levels hits the Druid with any weapon attack, putting that ability on them, and then have them bug out of combat. This way, the druid has this mark until they dispel it, or kill the bloodhunter.