Yeah, and they could also let you turn into a tarrasque at level one. As soon as you start doing stuff the text on the page says isn't allowed, all bets are off.
So you don’t wanna be a caster but have to pick a full caster class for the wildshape. That’s a tough one. Hope your GM allows multiclassing.
- You only need 2 levels of Druid to gain access to the Dire Wolf form as a moon Druid. But if you can’t rebuild your character, level 6 is highly recommended anyway as your attacks become magical in wolf form.
- Barbarians can rage while in beast form. It also doesn’t allow you to concentrate, but who cares when you don’t really wanna sling spells around. Use those slots for healing yourself via the Wildshape feature, because that works while raging.
- Monks allow you to add your WIS modifier to your animal forms AC.
- Rangers can get access to some extra damage features. I’ll have to check the wording but they may be limited to weapons only. They are also WIS based and mix well with Druids thematically.
-Blood Hunters can be built with Wisdom as your preferred stat. Order of the lycan seems like the obvious choice here. Wolf form and a hybrid wolf form could be interesting.
All I do is theory craft builds these days. Let me know what takes your fancy and I’ll do up a full progression if you need it.
So you don’t wanna be a caster but have to pick a full caster class for the wildshape. That’s a tough one. Hope your GM allows multiclassing.
- You only need 2 levels of Druid to gain access to the Dire Wolf form as a moon Druid. But if you can’t rebuild your character, level 6 is highly recommended anyway as your attacks become magical in wolf form.
- Barbarians can rage while in beast form. It also doesn’t allow you to concentrate, but who cares when you don’t really wanna sling spells around. Use those slots for healing yourself via the Wildshape feature, because that works while raging.
- Monks allow you to add your WIS modifier to your animal forms AC.
- Rangers can get access to some extra damage features. I’ll have to check the wording but they may be limited to weapons only. They are also WIS based and mix well with Druids thematically.
-Blood Hunters can be built with Wisdom as your preferred stat. Order of the lycan seems like the obvious choice here. Wolf form and a hybrid wolf form could be interesting.
All I do is theory craft builds these days. Let me know what takes your fancy and I’ll do up a full progression if you need it.
1 level of Barbarian also gives Unarmored Defense where you can add your CON modifier to your AC! ...Buuut the calculation is separate from Natural Armor. So it's same difference for a Dire Wolf unfortunately, but a Brown Bear for example has +3 CON but only +1 to AC from the Natural Armor, making the Unarmored AC better. A 2nd level of Barbarian would also give Reckless Attack and Danger Sense, very handy.
Yeah, and they could also let you turn into a tarrasque at level one. As soon as you start doing stuff the text on the page says isn't allowed, all bets are off.
I mean sure, you're right, but it is a beast in the same sense that Rictavio's tiger is one that has half plate in its stat block. Would a DM allow it? There is such a low chance the answer is almost undoubtedly no. Same with Onyx, but it does have that does match up for a wildshape rules, again same as that special tiger, and again very very low chance of a dm giving it the go ahead. In the same sense that Pun-Pun from I think 3rd or 3.5 was made. No one would be allowed to play it, but you could make it. Also when I look at the page supplied on dnd beyond I see that Onyx's cat stats are replaced by this instance, yet I don't seem to find where it stats for all other purposes this stat block doesnt exist (as was basically stated by panzer). Maybe I can't read, which is feasible, but I dont find it on the page provided to me. If there is another source I'll happily look at it.
Yeah, and they could also let you turn into a tarrasque at level one. As soon as you start doing stuff the text on the page says isn't allowed, all bets are off.
I mean sure, you're right, but it is a beast in the same sense that Rictavio's tiger is one that has half plate in its stat block. Would a DM allow it? There is such a low chance the answer is almost undoubtedly no. Same with Onyx, but it does have that does match up for a wildshape rules, again same as that special tiger, and again very very low chance of a dm giving it the go ahead. In the same sense that Pun-Pun from I think 3rd or 3.5 was made. No one would be allowed to play it, but you could make it. Also when I look at the page supplied on dnd beyond I see that Onyx's cat stats are replaced by this instance, yet I don't seem to find where it stats for all other purposes this stat block doesnt exist (as was basically stated by panzer). Maybe I can't read, which is feasible, but I dont find it on the page provided to me. If there is another source I'll happily look at it.
I didn't state anything that wasn't there. It's literally on the page of the statblock for the Onyx.
And no it's not a case "haha it's so broken but still technically possible". It's literally not something you can do. The statblock says it exists only in that one specific circumstance. If you take the Onyx stuff you're breaking the rules which is the same as the DM allowing you to turn into a Tarrasque or whatever.
Yeah, and they could also let you turn into a tarrasque at level one. As soon as you start doing stuff the text on the page says isn't allowed, all bets are off.
I mean sure, you're right, but it is a beast in the same sense that Rictavio's tiger is one that has half plate in its stat block. Would a DM allow it? There is such a low chance the answer is almost undoubtedly no. Same with Onyx, but it does have that does match up for a wildshape rules, again same as that special tiger, and again very very low chance of a dm giving it the go ahead. In the same sense that Pun-Pun from I think 3rd or 3.5 was made. No one would be allowed to play it, but you could make it. Also when I look at the page supplied on dnd beyond I see that Onyx's cat stats are replaced by this instance, yet I don't seem to find where it stats for all other purposes this stat block doesnt exist (as was basically stated by panzer). Maybe I can't read, which is feasible, but I dont find it on the page provided to me. If there is another source I'll happily look at it.
Yeah, I think sfPanzer said it pretty well, but it says that "Onyx is a regular cat, with special traits, and a modified attack, that only apply when used in the following encounter:" If you're saying you missed that, ok; there's the thing you missed. If you are saying you read it and didn't understand that "only" means "this case and no other cases" then that's just a misunderstanding on your part.
And from what I can find, Rictavio's saber-toothed tiger is just a saber-toothed tiger with plate armor. There isn't even a statblock, just a note in the book. In D&DBeyond, the link in that section of the module even just links to a regular saber-toothed tiger; there seems to be no statblock of an AC 17 saber-toothed cat.
Yeah, and they could also let you turn into a tarrasque at level one. As soon as you start doing stuff the text on the page says isn't allowed, all bets are off.
I mean sure, you're right, but it is a beast in the same sense that Rictavio's tiger is one that has half plate in its stat block. Would a DM allow it? There is such a low chance the answer is almost undoubtedly no. Same with Onyx, but it does have that does match up for a wildshape rules, again same as that special tiger, and again very very low chance of a dm giving it the go ahead. In the same sense that Pun-Pun from I think 3rd or 3.5 was made. No one would be allowed to play it, but you could make it. Also when I look at the page supplied on dnd beyond I see that Onyx's cat stats are replaced by this instance, yet I don't seem to find where it stats for all other purposes this stat block doesnt exist (as was basically stated by panzer). Maybe I can't read, which is feasible, but I dont find it on the page provided to me. If there is another source I'll happily look at it.
Yeah, I think sfPanzer said it pretty well, but it says that "Onyx is a regular cat, with special traits, and a modified attack, that only apply when used in the following encounter:" If you're saying you missed that, ok; there's the thing you missed. If you are saying you read it and didn't understand that "only" means "this case and no other cases" then that's just a misunderstanding on your part.
And from what I can find, Rictavio's saber-toothed tiger is just a saber-toothed tiger with plate armor. There isn't even a statblock, just a note in the book. In D&DBeyond, the link in that section of the module even just links to a regular saber-toothed tiger; there seems to be no statblock of an AC 17 saber-toothed cat.
Ok so I see where I made my mistake. When I clicked on the initial link describing the encounter it didnt mention the stat only applying in that instance, however once actually looking at the full stat block (and actually reading all the way to the bottom) on dnd beyond yall are right. It is only for that singular encounter. I hadnt seen that before on the wildshape page initially nor on a few other places I had looked. Thanks SaschaPanzer and WolfBees I dont like the answer but it is what it is. The tiger stat was shown in a 3rd party app which upon further thinking if it was misrepresented Onyx it probably misrepresented that tiger too.
You can use cloak of protection and ring of protection while in beast form. Thats another +2 AC +2 saves.
You could also ask the DM for magical armor that does change its size when you wildshape. The dungeon guide has the following:
In most cases, a magic item that’s meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer.
Rare exceptions exist. If the story suggests a good reason for an item to fit only creatures of a certain size or shape, you can rule that it doesn’t adjust. For example, armor made by the drow might fit elves only. Dwarves might make items usable only by dwarf-sized and dwarf-shaped characters.
When a nonhumanoid tries to wear an item, use your discretion as to whether the item functions as intended. A ring placed on a tentacle might work, but a yuan-ti with a snakelike tail instead of legs has no way to wear magic boots.
You could also ask him for animal barding. But whatever armor you wear, it will have to be made of non-metallic. Ironoak, Dragonscale or whatever you find.
If the DM is willing you to grant you the 3 best items for a moon druid then he propably might be convinced to give you a custom item that increases your wildshape CR limit.
Or ask him for the Hide of the Feral Guardian. This is actually the best item for moon druids.
So something I was thinking as a homebrew item that may work very well for moon druid is making any creature you transform into gain multiattack. If it already has multiattack then it gains 1 die extra of damage. It's abilities only work while transformed. This makes for those creature you can change into down the line actually worth something instead of feeling how the moon druid power falls off big time post level 10.
You can use cloak of protection and ring of protection while in beast form. Thats another +2 AC +2 saves.
You could also ask the DM for magical armor that does change its size when you wildshape. The dungeon guide has the following:
In most cases, a magic item that’s meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer.
Rare exceptions exist. If the story suggests a good reason for an item to fit only creatures of a certain size or shape, you can rule that it doesn’t adjust. For example, armor made by the drow might fit elves only. Dwarves might make items usable only by dwarf-sized and dwarf-shaped characters.
When a nonhumanoid tries to wear an item, use your discretion as to whether the item functions as intended. A ring placed on a tentacle might work, but a yuan-ti with a snakelike tail instead of legs has no way to wear magic boots.
You could also ask him for animal barding. But whatever armor you wear, it will have to be made of non-metallic. Ironoak, Dragonscale or whatever you find.
If the DM is willing you to grant you the 3 best items for a moon druid then he propably might be convinced to give you a custom item that increases your wildshape CR limit.
Or ask him for the Hide of the Feral Guardian. This is actually the best item for moon druids.
Most DMs are not going to allow wildshape and keeping armor and items...it is a DM call but most do not allow it.
Gets even more fun at 10th level with elementals. But that is a topic for another day.
You can use cloak of protection and ring of protection while in beast form. Thats another +2 AC +2 saves.
You could also ask the DM for magical armor that does change its size when you wildshape. The dungeon guide has the following:
In most cases, a magic item that’s meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer.
Rare exceptions exist. If the story suggests a good reason for an item to fit only creatures of a certain size or shape, you can rule that it doesn’t adjust. For example, armor made by the drow might fit elves only. Dwarves might make items usable only by dwarf-sized and dwarf-shaped characters.
When a nonhumanoid tries to wear an item, use your discretion as to whether the item functions as intended. A ring placed on a tentacle might work, but a yuan-ti with a snakelike tail instead of legs has no way to wear magic boots.
You could also ask him for animal barding. But whatever armor you wear, it will have to be made of non-metallic. Ironoak, Dragonscale or whatever you find.
If the DM is willing you to grant you the 3 best items for a moon druid then he propably might be convinced to give you a custom item that increases your wildshape CR limit.
Or ask him for the Hide of the Feral Guardian. This is actually the best item for moon druids.
and Wild Shape says:
You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size. Your equipment doesn’t change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can’t wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form.
There has been some discussion on this in the rules & mechanics section, but to me it is pretty clear that Wild Shape wins this one. No rules let any armor change to fit non-humanoid shapes, and the rule about how your shape change works says that your equipment doesn't change. You can get away with wearing some items, but very clearly not humanoid armor. It is pretty obvious that barding is the only way to armor wild shapes, but that takes (significant) time for a humanoid to put onto a creature.
There has been some discussion on this in the rules & mechanics section, but to me it is pretty clear that Wild Shape wins this one. No rules let any armor change to fit non-humanoid shapes, and the rule about how your shape change works says that your equipment doesn't change. You can get away with wearing some items, but very clearly not humanoid armor. It is pretty obvious that barding is the only way to armor wild shapes, but that takes (significant) time for a humanoid to put onto a creature.
The problem is you could say this is for normal equipment as those do not re-shape to fit. Magic items do re-shape.
Then you have the addition of elementals at 10th level which can be considered humanoid shaped depending on what flavor you want to use for them (mermydons for example).
One could argue that your magic armor, amulet, guantlets, rings, etc could be worn by these humanoid shaped elementals. They could even use a shield technically.
This creates some powerful combinations if the DM allows it.
First, regular items by default fit humanoids of all sizes, so saying they don't work like magic items is wrong. Second of all, you say magic items resize.They don't. You quoted the thing that says magic items *may* resize*OR* are adjustableand do not fit non-humanoids.
First, regular items by default fit humanoids of all sizes, so saying they don't work like magic items is wrong. Second of all, you say magic items resize.They don't. You quoted the thing that says magic items *may* resize*OR* are adjustableand do not fit non-humanoids.
So regular items cannot possibly fit humanoids of all sizes as something for a halfling is not going to fit a goliath. DMs can certainly choose to make it this way but the logic fails.
As to magic items the DMG on page 140 specifically states magic items resize.
So obviously magic items do resize. And it actually says creature not humanoids which brings many other possibilities into the fold.
First, regular items by default fit humanoids of all sizes, so saying they don't work like magic items is wrong. Second of all, you say magic items resize.They don't. You quoted the thing that says magic items *may* resize*OR* are adjustableand do not fit non-humanoids.
So regular items cannot possibly fit humanoids of all sizes as something for a halfling is not going to fit a goliath. DMs can certainly choose to make it this way but the logic fails.
It is absolutely the default assumption that all gear fits all PCs, unless your DM changes it.
As to magic items the DMG on page 140 specifically states magic items resize.
You didn't read it apparently. It says that is possible.
So obviously magic items do resize.
Absolutely false.
And it actually says creature not humanoids which brings many other possibilities into the fold.
And what does it actually say about non-humanoids again?
And this is all ignoring that Wild Shape clearly says equipment doesn't change size, with the seemingly obvious intent that that should cover the druid's equipment, magical or not, so it takes a specific ruling that says that magic items aren't included in that to begin with.
First, regular items by default fit humanoids of all sizes, so saying they don't work like magic items is wrong. Second of all, you say magic items resize.They don't. You quoted the thing that says magic items *may* resize*OR* are adjustableand do not fit non-humanoids.
So regular items cannot possibly fit humanoids of all sizes as something for a halfling is not going to fit a goliath. DMs can certainly choose to make it this way but the logic fails.
It is absolutely the default assumption that all gear fits all PCs, unless your DM changes it.
As to magic items the DMG on page 140 specifically states magic items resize.
You didn't read it apparently. It says that is possible.
So obviously magic items do resize.
Absolutely false.
And it actually says creature not humanoids which brings many other possibilities into the fold.
And what does it actually say about non-humanoids again?
And this is all ignoring that Wild Shape clearly says equipment doesn't change size, with the seemingly obvious intent that that should cover the druid's equipment, magical or not, so it takes a specific ruling that says that magic items aren't included in that to begin with.
I can see we are not going to agree. The DMG says they do and even uses the word creature instead of humanoid. I would quote it here but do not want to get into any copyright issues.
Yeah, I think agreement will be difficult when you keep skipping over relevant bits, like what the rules on magic items say about non-humanoids, and what the Wild Shape rules say.
Yeah, and they could also let you turn into a tarrasque at level one. As soon as you start doing stuff the text on the page says isn't allowed, all bets are off.
So you don’t wanna be a caster but have to pick a full caster class for the wildshape. That’s a tough one. Hope your GM allows multiclassing.
- You only need 2 levels of Druid to gain access to the Dire Wolf form as a moon Druid. But if you can’t rebuild your character, level 6 is highly recommended anyway as your attacks become magical in wolf form.
- Barbarians can rage while in beast form. It also doesn’t allow you to concentrate, but who cares when you don’t really wanna sling spells around. Use those slots for healing yourself via the Wildshape feature, because that works while raging.
- Monks allow you to add your WIS modifier to your animal forms AC.
- Rangers can get access to some extra damage features. I’ll have to check the wording but they may be limited to weapons only. They are also WIS based and mix well with Druids thematically.
-Blood Hunters can be built with Wisdom as your preferred stat. Order of the lycan seems like the obvious choice here. Wolf form and a hybrid wolf form could be interesting.
All I do is theory craft builds these days. Let me know what takes your fancy and I’ll do up a full progression if you need it.
1 level of Barbarian also gives Unarmored Defense where you can add your CON modifier to your AC! ...Buuut the calculation is separate from Natural Armor. So it's same difference for a Dire Wolf unfortunately, but a Brown Bear for example has +3 CON but only +1 to AC from the Natural Armor, making the Unarmored AC better. A 2nd level of Barbarian would also give Reckless Attack and Danger Sense, very handy.
I mean sure, you're right, but it is a beast in the same sense that Rictavio's tiger is one that has half plate in its stat block. Would a DM allow it? There is such a low chance the answer is almost undoubtedly no. Same with Onyx, but it does have that does match up for a wildshape rules, again same as that special tiger, and again very very low chance of a dm giving it the go ahead. In the same sense that Pun-Pun from I think 3rd or 3.5 was made. No one would be allowed to play it, but you could make it. Also when I look at the page supplied on dnd beyond I see that Onyx's cat stats are replaced by this instance, yet I don't seem to find where it stats for all other purposes this stat block doesnt exist (as was basically stated by panzer). Maybe I can't read, which is feasible, but I dont find it on the page provided to me. If there is another source I'll happily look at it.
I didn't state anything that wasn't there. It's literally on the page of the statblock for the Onyx.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/360961-onyx
And no it's not a case "haha it's so broken but still technically possible". It's literally not something you can do. The statblock says it exists only in that one specific circumstance. If you take the Onyx stuff you're breaking the rules which is the same as the DM allowing you to turn into a Tarrasque or whatever.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Yeah, I think sfPanzer said it pretty well, but it says that "Onyx is a regular cat, with special traits, and a modified attack, that only apply when used in the following encounter:" If you're saying you missed that, ok; there's the thing you missed. If you are saying you read it and didn't understand that "only" means "this case and no other cases" then that's just a misunderstanding on your part.
And from what I can find, Rictavio's saber-toothed tiger is just a saber-toothed tiger with plate armor. There isn't even a statblock, just a note in the book. In D&DBeyond, the link in that section of the module even just links to a regular saber-toothed tiger; there seems to be no statblock of an AC 17 saber-toothed cat.
Ok so I see where I made my mistake. When I clicked on the initial link describing the encounter it didnt mention the stat only applying in that instance, however once actually looking at the full stat block (and actually reading all the way to the bottom) on dnd beyond yall are right. It is only for that singular encounter. I hadnt seen that before on the wildshape page initially nor on a few other places I had looked. Thanks SaschaPanzer and WolfBees I dont like the answer but it is what it is. The tiger stat was shown in a 3rd party app which upon further thinking if it was misrepresented Onyx it probably misrepresented that tiger too.
One time on the internet I saw someone correct someone else politely, and that person accept the correction with grace.
My grandchildren will never believe me.
You can use cloak of protection and ring of protection while in beast form. Thats another +2 AC +2 saves.
You could also ask the DM for magical armor that does change its size when you wildshape. The dungeon guide has the following:
You could also ask him for animal barding. But whatever armor you wear, it will have to be made of non-metallic. Ironoak, Dragonscale or whatever you find.
If the DM is willing you to grant you the 3 best items for a moon druid then he propably might be convinced to give you a custom item that increases your wildshape CR limit.
Or ask him for the Hide of the Feral Guardian. This is actually the best item for moon druids.
So something I was thinking as a homebrew item that may work very well for moon druid is making any creature you transform into gain multiattack. If it already has multiattack then it gains 1 die extra of damage. It's abilities only work while transformed. This makes for those creature you can change into down the line actually worth something instead of feeling how the moon druid power falls off big time post level 10.
Most DMs are not going to allow wildshape and keeping armor and items...it is a DM call but most do not allow it.
Gets even more fun at 10th level with elementals. But that is a topic for another day.
and Wild Shape says:
There has been some discussion on this in the rules & mechanics section, but to me it is pretty clear that Wild Shape wins this one. No rules let any armor change to fit non-humanoid shapes, and the rule about how your shape change works says that your equipment doesn't change. You can get away with wearing some items, but very clearly not humanoid armor. It is pretty obvious that barding is the only way to armor wild shapes, but that takes (significant) time for a humanoid to put onto a creature.
The problem is you could say this is for normal equipment as those do not re-shape to fit. Magic items do re-shape.
Then you have the addition of elementals at 10th level which can be considered humanoid shaped depending on what flavor you want to use for them (mermydons for example).
One could argue that your magic armor, amulet, guantlets, rings, etc could be worn by these humanoid shaped elementals. They could even use a shield technically.
This creates some powerful combinations if the DM allows it.
First, regular items by default fit humanoids of all sizes, so saying they don't work like magic items is wrong. Second of all, you say magic items resize.They don't. You quoted the thing that says magic items *may* resize *OR* are adjustable and do not fit non-humanoids.
So regular items cannot possibly fit humanoids of all sizes as something for a halfling is not going to fit a goliath. DMs can certainly choose to make it this way but the logic fails.
As to magic items the DMG on page 140 specifically states magic items resize.
So obviously magic items do resize. And it actually says creature not humanoids which brings many other possibilities into the fold.
It is absolutely the default assumption that all gear fits all PCs, unless your DM changes it.
You didn't read it apparently. It says that is possible.Absolutely false.
And what does it actually say about non-humanoids again?
And this is all ignoring that Wild Shape clearly says equipment doesn't change size, with the seemingly obvious intent that that should cover the druid's equipment, magical or not, so it takes a specific ruling that says that magic items aren't included in that to begin with.
I can see we are not going to agree. The DMG says they do and even uses the word creature instead of humanoid. I would quote it here but do not want to get into any copyright issues.
YMMV.
Yeah, I think agreement will be difficult when you keep skipping over relevant bits, like what the rules on magic items say about non-humanoids, and what the Wild Shape rules say.
Sage Advice and JC also agree with the DMG.
However they do leave the door open to DMs to decide which is I guess as fair as it gets.
Yes, JC does agree with the DMG: Non humanoids aren't intended to wear armor. Though no compendium entries have been made regarding this.