As a DM who has also played Druids in two 5e campaigns, I struggle to see why anyone wants to make Druids and Wildshape more powerful than RAW. It is already verging on overpowered at lower levels, especially with Moon Druid, and acts as a huge pool of temporary hit points and creative problem solving for the player.
Once spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and Healing Spirit arrive at Level 3 (2nd level spells) the Moon Druid can cast one of these as an action, then Wildshape into a Brown Bear, Dire Wolf or a Tiger using a bonus action. As long as they do not lose concentration, they then have 30+ temp HP and the ongoing spell. With Dust Devil (bonus action to move) and Heat Metal this could create double attack turns as the damage from both the spell and the beast form can be utilized.
With Healing Spirit(bonus action to move) you have ten rounds of 1d6 healing in addition to your beast attacks.
With Summon Beast you could have a whole other beast to attack with you and draw fire, including flying beastial spirits (while flying is still unavailable in Wildshape).
It just gets better from there with each level. I fail to see any need to add beast bardings or any other advantages for a druid, and really think this would also cause difficulty with party balance. As a character I wouldn't want them anyway! There is no tension or interest in being invincible, and any good DM would just make it a point to expose whatever weaknesses you have left. ;)
As a DM who has also played Druids in two 5e campaigns, I struggle to see why anyone wants to make Druids and Wildshape more powerful than RAW. It is already verging on overpowered at lower levels, especially with Moon Druid, and acts as a huge pool of temporary hit points and creative problem solving for the player.
Once spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and Healing Spirit arrive at Level 3 (2nd level spells) the Moon Druid can cast one of these as an action, then Wildshape into a Brown Bear, Dire Wolf or a Tiger using a bonus action. As long as they do not lose concentration, they then have 30+ temp HP and the ongoing spell. With Dust Devil (bonus action to move) and Heat Metal this could create double attack turns as the damage from both the spell and the beast form can be utilized.
With Healing Spirit(bonus action to move) you have ten rounds of 1d6 healing in addition to your beast attacks.
With Summon Beast you could have a whole other beast to attack with you and draw fire, including flying beastial spirits (while flying is still unavailable in Wildshape).
It just gets better from there with each level. I fail to see any need to add beast bardings or any other advantages for a druid, and really think this would also cause difficulty with party balance. As a character I wouldn't want them anyway! There is no tension or interest in being invincible, and any good DM would just make it a point to expose whatever weaknesses you have left. ;)
Pre level 5. Agreed moon druid is prob one of the top S tier subclasses. Post level 10 though? It get really bad really quick. I can see the non invincible arguement, buuuut also no one wants to get to a point where most of what they are doing is standing there being a meat shield when they didnt build for that either.
buuuut also no one wants to get to a point where most of what they are doing is standing there being a meat shield when they didnt build for that either.
Good thing nobody was talking about that then. They said you can comfortably spend your rounds reactivating spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and the like without having to be worried about your HP because you are sitting in your Wildshape form with their separate HP pool. That's something completely different than being just a meat shield.
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
As a DM who has also played Druids in two 5e campaigns, I struggle to see why anyone wants to make Druids and Wildshape more powerful than RAW. It is already verging on overpowered at lower levels, especially with Moon Druid, and acts as a huge pool of temporary hit points and creative problem solving for the player.
Once spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and Healing Spirit arrive at Level 3 (2nd level spells) the Moon Druid can cast one of these as an action, then Wildshape into a Brown Bear, Dire Wolf or a Tiger using a bonus action. As long as they do not lose concentration, they then have 30+ temp HP and the ongoing spell. With Dust Devil (bonus action to move) and Heat Metal this could create double attack turns as the damage from both the spell and the beast form can be utilized.
With Healing Spirit(bonus action to move) you have ten rounds of 1d6 healing in addition to your beast attacks.
With Summon Beast you could have a whole other beast to attack with you and draw fire, including flying beastial spirits (while flying is still unavailable in Wildshape).
It just gets better from there with each level. I fail to see any need to add beast bardings or any other advantages for a druid, and really think this would also cause difficulty with party balance. As a character I wouldn't want them anyway! There is no tension or interest in being invincible, and any good DM would just make it a point to expose whatever weaknesses you have left. ;)
In my experience, Moon Druids are far from invincible. Even as early as level 4, the seeming OP-ness of the Wildshapes start to diminish. Beasts have lower AC than pretty much any melee martial should have. So a frontline Moon Druid concentrating on a spell generally doesn't keep concentration up for long. Also, because of the "nature" of Druid spells, it's not too hard for even 10 INT monsters to tell who cast that Moonbeam/Entangle/Conjure spell unless it's a multi-Druid or Druid+Ranger party.
As a DM who has also played Druids in two 5e campaigns, I struggle to see why anyone wants to make Druids and Wildshape more powerful than RAW. It is already verging on overpowered at lower levels, especially with Moon Druid, and acts as a huge pool of temporary hit points and creative problem solving for the player.
Once spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and Healing Spirit arrive at Level 3 (2nd level spells) the Moon Druid can cast one of these as an action, then Wildshape into a Brown Bear, Dire Wolf or a Tiger using a bonus action. As long as they do not lose concentration, they then have 30+ temp HP and the ongoing spell. With Dust Devil (bonus action to move) and Heat Metal this could create double attack turns as the damage from both the spell and the beast form can be utilized.
With Healing Spirit(bonus action to move) you have ten rounds of 1d6 healing in addition to your beast attacks.
With Summon Beast you could have a whole other beast to attack with you and draw fire, including flying beastial spirits (while flying is still unavailable in Wildshape).
It just gets better from there with each level. I fail to see any need to add beast bardings or any other advantages for a druid, and really think this would also cause difficulty with party balance. As a character I wouldn't want them anyway! There is no tension or interest in being invincible, and any good DM would just make it a point to expose whatever weaknesses you have left. ;)
Pre level 5. Agreed moon druid is prob one of the top S tier subclasses. Post level 10 though? It get really bad really quick. I can see the non invincible arguement, buuuut also no one wants to get to a point where most of what they are doing is standing there being a meat shield when they didnt build for that either.
There is plenty to do. Playing a Druid is embracing a supporting character with infinite options dependent on party makeup and personal desires. In one party I played a healing/buffing role Druid, and in another the Druid was more in and out of melee but never in danger of being "left behind" by the increasing power of other classes. The temp HPs of wildshape are always there, and if you get hit and lose concentration or even thrown back into normal form, you do have another wildshape to use too.
The conjuring spells though provide a huge resource of combat power and HP as well. The druid can cast conjure woodland beings, run, hide, watch the conjured fey create havoc and divert an enemy's attention, and never actually get into melee. A Moon Druid isn't a meat shield, it's a way to create with the ability to cast a spell and with a bonus action enter wildshape and decide what to do. That wildshape can be so various depending on terrain and circumstances that in the right hands, someone who embraces the complexity and finds creative solutions, it can lead to a lot of fun and a really useful party member.
As a DM who has also played Druids in two 5e campaigns, I struggle to see why anyone wants to make Druids and Wildshape more powerful than RAW. It is already verging on overpowered at lower levels, especially with Moon Druid, and acts as a huge pool of temporary hit points and creative problem solving for the player.
Once spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and Healing Spirit arrive at Level 3 (2nd level spells) the Moon Druid can cast one of these as an action, then Wildshape into a Brown Bear, Dire Wolf or a Tiger using a bonus action. As long as they do not lose concentration, they then have 30+ temp HP and the ongoing spell. With Dust Devil (bonus action to move) and Heat Metal this could create double attack turns as the damage from both the spell and the beast form can be utilized.
With Healing Spirit(bonus action to move) you have ten rounds of 1d6 healing in addition to your beast attacks.
With Summon Beast you could have a whole other beast to attack with you and draw fire, including flying beastial spirits (while flying is still unavailable in Wildshape).
It just gets better from there with each level. I fail to see any need to add beast bardings or any other advantages for a druid, and really think this would also cause difficulty with party balance. As a character I wouldn't want them anyway! There is no tension or interest in being invincible, and any good DM would just make it a point to expose whatever weaknesses you have left. ;)
In my experience, Moon Druids are far from invincible. Even as early as level 4, the seeming OP-ness of the Wildshapes start to diminish. Beasts have lower AC than pretty much any melee martial should have. So a frontline Moon Druid concentrating on a spell generally doesn't keep concentration up for long. Also, because of the "nature" of Druid spells, it's not too hard for even 10 INT monsters to tell who cast that Moonbeam/Entangle/Conjure spell unless it's a multi-Druid or Druid+Ranger party.
As a DM who has also played Druids in two 5e campaigns, I struggle to see why anyone wants to make Druids and Wildshape more powerful than RAW. It is already verging on overpowered at lower levels, especially with Moon Druid, and acts as a huge pool of temporary hit points and creative problem solving for the player.
Once spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and Healing Spirit arrive at Level 3 (2nd level spells) the Moon Druid can cast one of these as an action, then Wildshape into a Brown Bear, Dire Wolf or a Tiger using a bonus action. As long as they do not lose concentration, they then have 30+ temp HP and the ongoing spell. With Dust Devil (bonus action to move) and Heat Metal this could create double attack turns as the damage from both the spell and the beast form can be utilized.
With Healing Spirit(bonus action to move) you have ten rounds of 1d6 healing in addition to your beast attacks.
With Summon Beast you could have a whole other beast to attack with you and draw fire, including flying beastial spirits (while flying is still unavailable in Wildshape).
It just gets better from there with each level. I fail to see any need to add beast bardings or any other advantages for a druid, and really think this would also cause difficulty with party balance. As a character I wouldn't want them anyway! There is no tension or interest in being invincible, and any good DM would just make it a point to expose whatever weaknesses you have left. ;)
In my experience, Moon Druids are far from invincible. Even as early as level 4, the seeming OP-ness of the Wildshapes start to diminish. Beasts have lower AC than pretty much any melee martial should have. So a frontline Moon Druid concentrating on a spell generally doesn't keep concentration up for long. Also, because of the "nature" of Druid spells, it's not too hard for even 10 INT monsters to tell who cast that Moonbeam/Entangle/Conjure spell unless it's a multi-Druid or Druid+Ranger party.
My party was constantly griping (good-naturedly) at the seemingly endless pool of resources available to a Druid. It can be a melee fighter in the right situation, or it can be a support, or it can be a distant hard to locate caster in the form of a rat who just happens to be raining lightning on your head every turn. Lower AC doesn't matter so much if you're intentionally staying back and out of melee, especially in a stealthy form.
It works even better if you can wildshape out of sight of your enemies. "Where'd that guy in the furs go?" Then a giant centipede peers out from under a woodpile and your armour starts frying you.
buuuut also no one wants to get to a point where most of what they are doing is standing there being a meat shield when they didnt build for that either.
Good thing nobody was talking about that then. They said you can comfortably spend your rounds reactivating spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and the like without having to be worried about your HP because you are sitting in your Wildshape form with their separate HP pool. That's something completely different than being just a meat shield.
So what you're saying is cast one of the stated spells, wild shape and pray you keep those spells going and not get knocked out of wild shape/ drop concentration? Because if you do drop con (more likely even being built with res con feat and warcaster) you are going to have a harder time hitting bigger enemies, and being a moon druid is usually more in your face. So you would just be sitting back away from battle or in the enemies' face. So if con drops and still in wild shape, meat shield, or the occasional hit or grapple.
buuuut also no one wants to get to a point where most of what they are doing is standing there being a meat shield when they didnt build for that either.
Good thing nobody was talking about that then. They said you can comfortably spend your rounds reactivating spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and the like without having to be worried about your HP because you are sitting in your Wildshape form with their separate HP pool. That's something completely different than being just a meat shield.
So what you're saying is cast one of the stated spells, wild shape and pray you keep those spells going and not get knocked out of wild shape/ drop concentration? Because if you do drop con (more likely even being built with res con feat and warcaster) you are going to have a harder time hitting bigger enemies, and being a moon druid is usually more in your face. So you would just be sitting back away from battle or in the enemies' face. So if con drops and still in wild shape, meat shield, or the occasional hit or grapple.
You're acting like this is some kind of weird new idea when it actually has been the go to way of fighting for Moon Druids since forever lol
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
buuuut also no one wants to get to a point where most of what they are doing is standing there being a meat shield when they didnt build for that either.
Good thing nobody was talking about that then. They said you can comfortably spend your rounds reactivating spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and the like without having to be worried about your HP because you are sitting in your Wildshape form with their separate HP pool. That's something completely different than being just a meat shield.
So what you're saying is cast one of the stated spells, wild shape and pray you keep those spells going and not get knocked out of wild shape/ drop concentration? Because if you do drop con (more likely even being built with res con feat and warcaster) you are going to have a harder time hitting bigger enemies, and being a moon druid is usually more in your face. So you would just be sitting back away from battle or in the enemies' face. So if con drops and still in wild shape, meat shield, or the occasional hit or grapple.
You're acting like this is some kind of weird new idea when it actually has been the go to way of fighting for Moon Druids since forever lol
Hence my annoyance, and belief that moon druid needs a boost post lvl 10.
buuuut also no one wants to get to a point where most of what they are doing is standing there being a meat shield when they didnt build for that either.
Good thing nobody was talking about that then. They said you can comfortably spend your rounds reactivating spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and the like without having to be worried about your HP because you are sitting in your Wildshape form with their separate HP pool. That's something completely different than being just a meat shield.
So what you're saying is cast one of the stated spells, wild shape and pray you keep those spells going and not get knocked out of wild shape/ drop concentration? Because if you do drop con (more likely even being built with res con feat and warcaster) you are going to have a harder time hitting bigger enemies, and being a moon druid is usually more in your face. So you would just be sitting back away from battle or in the enemies' face. So if con drops and still in wild shape, meat shield, or the occasional hit or grapple.
Movement, concealment, and the type of wildshape you chose are all important, but all of this is dependent on what is being faced. The whole idea of a Druid is flexibility. This is just an option. There are many options dependent on circumstances.
Cast a spell, damage, healing, control, whatever. If you want to keep it going and have an opportunity to move and hide, do it. If you need more speed, or a stealthy form, then wildshape as a bonus action. Or just go Brown Bear/Dire Wolf, and dive in. You might get one round of your spell, or it might be 4-5 rounds. Who knows.
The point is that as long as it works you're getting either just the spell (hiding), or the spell and possible secondary attacks in wildshape (while also using the HP pool of wildshape, which is significant).
So as a worst case you're hit, you lose concentration, and you're in wildshape as a decent combat form. So you fight until that is killed, then come back to your original form. Once there you can decide all over again if you want to do this again, or stay in natural form. At lower levels this just means you've either doubled or trippled your effecive HP and gotten some rounds where you're either doing extra damage or extra healing.
Good thing nobody was talking about that then. They said you can comfortably spend your rounds reactivating spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and the like without having to be worried about your HP because you are sitting in your Wildshape form with their separate HP pool. That's something completely different than being just a meat shield.
That being said… this right here is why I’ve decided I will never play a Moon Druid again. Moon Druid sells itself as being a beast and leveraging your wildshape at the cost of being able to cast spells. Except if you want to be able to contribute to your party… you have to cast spells. That means avoid being in melee, cause beast forms cannot hold concentration as well due to lower constitution scores and terrible AC.
At that point.. just play a Land Druid. You can do the main trick a Moon Druid does, have a lot more access to magical items that make you better at the role you’ve chosen, and don’t feel like you’ve been missold a bill of goods.
Good thing nobody was talking about that then. They said you can comfortably spend your rounds reactivating spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and the like without having to be worried about your HP because you are sitting in your Wildshape form with their separate HP pool. That's something completely different than being just a meat shield.
That being said… this right here is why I’ve decided I will never play a Moon Druid again. Moon Druid sells itself as being a beast and leveraging your wildshape at the cost of being able to cast spells. Except if you want to be able to contribute to your party… you have to cast spells. That means avoid being in melee, cause beast forms cannot hold concentration as well due to lower constitution scores and terrible AC.
At that point.. just play a Land Druid. You can do the main trick a Moon Druid does, have a lot more access to magical items that make you better at the role you’ve chosen, and don’t feel like you’ve been missold a bill of goods.
Honestly if you read the subclass like this then that's on you. It never really sold itself as anything like that. It's still a full-caster at its core.
Also where do you get low CON score from? Some do, but lots of beasts have better CON than most player characters. Brown Bears for example have a CON of 16 already. PCs usually have a CON of 12-14 at best. Heck, a Mammoth even has a CON of 21. Low AC is an argument but that's the trade-of. You didn't seriously think that you'd be more tanky than someone with proper armour? It would be ridiculous of random beasts to have skin thicker than the best equipped warriors lol. Best you get is the Earth Elemental with AC 17 and CON 20 and honestly that's a LOT for a full-caster class.
And no Land Druids can't do the main trick of a Moon Druid. They get access to combat wild shapes a lot later and never get access to the really big ones or elemental forms, nor do their wild shape attacks ever become magical. Moon Druids also have access to the same magical items. You aren't wild shape 24/7. If you really think they are interchangeable then it just shows how wrong your judgement of the Moon Druid is to begin with. You are a Druid first and foremost. Bigger wild shapes is just what you can do in addition to that.
Hiding is not the Moon Druid's "trick" though. Once again you try to reduce it to something it's not supposed to be. You'll never be happy with any (sub-)class if you keep doing that. Just saying.
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Good thing nobody was talking about that then. They said you can comfortably spend your rounds reactivating spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and the like without having to be worried about your HP because you are sitting in your Wildshape form with their separate HP pool. That's something completely different than being just a meat shield.
That being said… this right here is why I’ve decided I will never play a Moon Druid again. Moon Druid sells itself as being a beast and leveraging your wildshape at the cost of being able to cast spells. Except if you want to be able to contribute to your party… you have to cast spells. That means avoid being in melee, cause beast forms cannot hold concentration as well due to lower constitution scores and terrible AC.
At that point.. just play a Land Druid. You can do the main trick a Moon Druid does, have a lot more access to magical items that make you better at the role you’ve chosen, and don’t feel like you’ve been missold a bill of goods.
Where is the selling part? It's your job to decide how to use RAW. There are so many options it's ridiculous. I wish I could play a game a night to try everything out that's offered by a Druid, and now specifically a Moon Druid. I also like the flavour.
For wildshape it's doing it as a bonus action that is the best part. Sure the shapes are better too, but it's about action economy and then maximizing how to use your HP pool really. You just get so much more than others at this stage.
The point above about CON is a good one, that Brown Bear (30+ HP, two attacks, and +3 CON) allows you to stick in better than most casters with a CON concentration spell save, plus if you fail your save, you just keep clawing and let yourself be a tank for a round or two until you come out of wildshape. Then you can DO IT AGAIN!!
ok so little late to this XD but simply put this is the unfortunate side effect of moon druid, people think bear can mess a person up, but forget in dnd the average adventurer is much more powerful than people in our world, and could likely man handle a bear.
bad analogy aside moon druidis simply but not a dps when wild shaped, moon druid is at its core the strongest tank in the game sacrificing damage for that. my advice to if you wanna be dps druid, find creature with multi-attack, take resilient feet, then cast enlarge reduce on self to get that extra damage.
as for positioning that is something hard to run as a dm, since wotc decided to make it so that once you are engaged with someone you are not allowed to leave their sphere of influence without taking damage.
You could ask your Dm if you can switch subclasses to spores or something. Spores lets you keep your stats and gets more hitpoints as well as regular wildshapes if that is what you are looking for
I picked this class cause the idea of being able to turn into a giant wolf and eat people appealed to me. I wanted Wildshape to be my main focus and power as well as my utility but now… it seems I just want to never play this class ever again.
A few things are beyond my control that soured me on it - our DM doesn’t do “tactical” combat, most enemies just move up to someone and sit there, smacking them. So the idea of battlefield control is nonexistent and pointless. We also started off with amazing stats - I’m level 5 with an 18 in Dex, Wis, Con, and Int. We also got some decent magical items, I have a ring of protection, a cloak of protection and an insignia of claws.
I’m less survivable in wild shape form (ac 13-14 vs 19) , I have overall much better stats than any beast form I could take, and that means I’m relegated to either mediocre damage or spellcasting. If I wanted to be a melee spellcaster I’d have picked Cleric.
what can I do to make wildshape actually *good*?
So let me get this straight. You hate a class because a DM allowed you to start the game with unreasonably high states that you normally have to spend ASI's to reach? Oh, and gave you very good magic gear to start with? So the class doesn't work because you and your DM want to break lower levels and not have your party actually be challanged or have the chance of not surviving?
So the Moon druid at 2nd level will allow you to play a Brown Bear with 37 hit point and if you drop to zero you pop back as a 2nd level druid with the same 12 to 16 hit points you had and poof not even using another full action you are a tiger with 37 hit points. Both of these creatures get two attacks per round verse a druid with one. Additionally they have 40 foot movement vs 30 for most player species. Also you can choose to wear items with in reason. A magic ring fits any size finger, your cloak can still be worn on a bear or tiger.
You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size. Your equipment doesn’t change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can’t wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form.
It is a very flexible class that lets a normal character do many fun things. You lost your fun by giving yourself a character with zero flaws in stats, so it took away what this class can be. Play it again sometime when you start out as a normal, slightly better than average low level adventure. You will most likely enjoy the experiance for all the reasons you origionally choose it.
I don’t know. Something like a monk that can shape change and uses their new shape to fight with? That monks can’t spend ki this way is kind of surprising to me since mastery of one’s body seems a perfect fit!
I looked at Path of the Beast Barbarian but I don’t want to be more tanky and frankly it’s missing out on a lot of the utility I enjoy from being able to wildshape.
I’d even consider dipping Monk if the vast majority of beasts didn’t have terrible dex scores. Or if any of the spells actually made me better as a wild animal outside of Barkskin. It really feels that wild shape in combat boils down to “cast spell, wild shape and hide as your spell just does whatever”.
maybe it’s me. Maybe my desire to be a character is who can use their wolf form to actually fight with is something that isn’t possible in this game.
I personally wildshape, go into melee, and if I lose my spell, too bad, I'm still a big hairy thing.
One level in barb might be nice just so if you lose your spell, you can now be a raging beast.
OP is actually pretty spot on IMO. Moon druid is vastly overrate because of the low level experience. Especially when people start talking about nerfing your most powerful feature (spellcasting) by taking levels of barbarian/monk/etc. Low AC is a huge weakness. Optimized tank builds with solid base AC, magic items, the shield spell etc can just avoid damage while your beast gets totally wrecked.
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As a DM who has also played Druids in two 5e campaigns, I struggle to see why anyone wants to make Druids and Wildshape more powerful than RAW. It is already verging on overpowered at lower levels, especially with Moon Druid, and acts as a huge pool of temporary hit points and creative problem solving for the player.
Once spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and Healing Spirit arrive at Level 3 (2nd level spells) the Moon Druid can cast one of these as an action, then Wildshape into a Brown Bear, Dire Wolf or a Tiger using a bonus action. As long as they do not lose concentration, they then have 30+ temp HP and the ongoing spell. With Dust Devil (bonus action to move) and Heat Metal this could create double attack turns as the damage from both the spell and the beast form can be utilized.
With Healing Spirit(bonus action to move) you have ten rounds of 1d6 healing in addition to your beast attacks.
With Summon Beast you could have a whole other beast to attack with you and draw fire, including flying beastial spirits (while flying is still unavailable in Wildshape).
It just gets better from there with each level. I fail to see any need to add beast bardings or any other advantages for a druid, and really think this would also cause difficulty with party balance. As a character I wouldn't want them anyway! There is no tension or interest in being invincible, and any good DM would just make it a point to expose whatever weaknesses you have left. ;)
Pre level 5. Agreed moon druid is prob one of the top S tier subclasses. Post level 10 though? It get really bad really quick. I can see the non invincible arguement, buuuut also no one wants to get to a point where most of what they are doing is standing there being a meat shield when they didnt build for that either.
Good thing nobody was talking about that then. They said you can comfortably spend your rounds reactivating spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and the like without having to be worried about your HP because you are sitting in your Wildshape form with their separate HP pool. That's something completely different than being just a meat shield.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
In my experience, Moon Druids are far from invincible. Even as early as level 4, the seeming OP-ness of the Wildshapes start to diminish. Beasts have lower AC than pretty much any melee martial should have. So a frontline Moon Druid concentrating on a spell generally doesn't keep concentration up for long. Also, because of the "nature" of Druid spells, it's not too hard for even 10 INT monsters to tell who cast that Moonbeam/Entangle/Conjure spell unless it's a multi-Druid or Druid+Ranger party.
There is plenty to do. Playing a Druid is embracing a supporting character with infinite options dependent on party makeup and personal desires. In one party I played a healing/buffing role Druid, and in another the Druid was more in and out of melee but never in danger of being "left behind" by the increasing power of other classes. The temp HPs of wildshape are always there, and if you get hit and lose concentration or even thrown back into normal form, you do have another wildshape to use too.
The conjuring spells though provide a huge resource of combat power and HP as well. The druid can cast conjure woodland beings, run, hide, watch the conjured fey create havoc and divert an enemy's attention, and never actually get into melee. A Moon Druid isn't a meat shield, it's a way to create with the ability to cast a spell and with a bonus action enter wildshape and decide what to do. That wildshape can be so various depending on terrain and circumstances that in the right hands, someone who embraces the complexity and finds creative solutions, it can lead to a lot of fun and a really useful party member.
My party was constantly griping (good-naturedly) at the seemingly endless pool of resources available to a Druid. It can be a melee fighter in the right situation, or it can be a support, or it can be a distant hard to locate caster in the form of a rat who just happens to be raining lightning on your head every turn. Lower AC doesn't matter so much if you're intentionally staying back and out of melee, especially in a stealthy form.
It works even better if you can wildshape out of sight of your enemies. "Where'd that guy in the furs go?" Then a giant centipede peers out from under a woodpile and your armour starts frying you.
So what you're saying is cast one of the stated spells, wild shape and pray you keep those spells going and not get knocked out of wild shape/ drop concentration? Because if you do drop con (more likely even being built with res con feat and warcaster) you are going to have a harder time hitting bigger enemies, and being a moon druid is usually more in your face. So you would just be sitting back away from battle or in the enemies' face. So if con drops and still in wild shape, meat shield, or the occasional hit or grapple.
You're acting like this is some kind of weird new idea when it actually has been the go to way of fighting for Moon Druids since forever lol
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Hence my annoyance, and belief that moon druid needs a boost post lvl 10.
Movement, concealment, and the type of wildshape you chose are all important, but all of this is dependent on what is being faced. The whole idea of a Druid is flexibility. This is just an option. There are many options dependent on circumstances.
Cast a spell, damage, healing, control, whatever. If you want to keep it going and have an opportunity to move and hide, do it. If you need more speed, or a stealthy form, then wildshape as a bonus action. Or just go Brown Bear/Dire Wolf, and dive in. You might get one round of your spell, or it might be 4-5 rounds. Who knows.
The point is that as long as it works you're getting either just the spell (hiding), or the spell and possible secondary attacks in wildshape (while also using the HP pool of wildshape, which is significant).
So as a worst case you're hit, you lose concentration, and you're in wildshape as a decent combat form. So you fight until that is killed, then come back to your original form. Once there you can decide all over again if you want to do this again, or stay in natural form. At lower levels this just means you've either doubled or trippled your effecive HP and gotten some rounds where you're either doing extra damage or extra healing.
Wow this thread is still ongoing?
Good thing nobody was talking about that then. They said you can comfortably spend your rounds reactivating spells like Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Dust Devil and the like without having to be worried about your HP because you are sitting in your Wildshape form with their separate HP pool. That's something completely different than being just a meat shield.
That being said… this right here is why I’ve decided I will never play a Moon Druid again. Moon Druid sells itself as being a beast and leveraging your wildshape at the cost of being able to cast spells. Except if you want to be able to contribute to your party… you have to cast spells. That means avoid being in melee, cause beast forms cannot hold concentration as well due to lower constitution scores and terrible AC.
At that point.. just play a Land Druid. You can do the main trick a Moon Druid does, have a lot more access to magical items that make you better at the role you’ve chosen, and don’t feel like you’ve been missold a bill of goods.
Honestly if you read the subclass like this then that's on you. It never really sold itself as anything like that. It's still a full-caster at its core.
Also where do you get low CON score from? Some do, but lots of beasts have better CON than most player characters. Brown Bears for example have a CON of 16 already. PCs usually have a CON of 12-14 at best. Heck, a Mammoth even has a CON of 21. Low AC is an argument but that's the trade-of. You didn't seriously think that you'd be more tanky than someone with proper armour? It would be ridiculous of random beasts to have skin thicker than the best equipped warriors lol. Best you get is the Earth Elemental with AC 17 and CON 20 and honestly that's a LOT for a full-caster class.
And no Land Druids can't do the main trick of a Moon Druid. They get access to combat wild shapes a lot later and never get access to the really big ones or elemental forms, nor do their wild shape attacks ever become magical. Moon Druids also have access to the same magical items. You aren't wild shape 24/7. If you really think they are interchangeable then it just shows how wrong your judgement of the Moon Druid is to begin with. You are a Druid first and foremost. Bigger wild shapes is just what you can do in addition to that.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Land Druid can do the cast a spell and hide as a wildshaped beast just like a Moon Druid. Sure it takes an action but they can do it.
Hiding is not the Moon Druid's "trick" though. Once again you try to reduce it to something it's not supposed to be. You'll never be happy with any (sub-)class if you keep doing that. Just saying.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Where is the selling part? It's your job to decide how to use RAW. There are so many options it's ridiculous. I wish I could play a game a night to try everything out that's offered by a Druid, and now specifically a Moon Druid. I also like the flavour.
For wildshape it's doing it as a bonus action that is the best part. Sure the shapes are better too, but it's about action economy and then maximizing how to use your HP pool really. You just get so much more than others at this stage.
The point above about CON is a good one, that Brown Bear (30+ HP, two attacks, and +3 CON) allows you to stick in better than most casters with a CON concentration spell save, plus if you fail your save, you just keep clawing and let yourself be a tank for a round or two until you come out of wildshape. Then you can DO IT AGAIN!!
Seriously. What is the problem here?
ok so little late to this XD but simply put this is the unfortunate side effect of moon druid, people think bear can mess a person up, but forget in dnd the average adventurer is much more powerful than people in our world, and could likely man handle a bear.
bad analogy aside moon druidis simply but not a dps when wild shaped, moon druid is at its core the strongest tank in the game sacrificing damage for that. my advice to if you wanna be dps druid, find creature with multi-attack, take resilient feet, then cast enlarge reduce on self to get that extra damage.
as for positioning that is something hard to run as a dm, since wotc decided to make it so that once you are engaged with someone you are not allowed to leave their sphere of influence without taking damage.
You could ask your Dm if you can switch subclasses to spores or something. Spores lets you keep your stats and gets more hitpoints as well as regular wildshapes if that is what you are looking for
So let me get this straight. You hate a class because a DM allowed you to start the game with unreasonably high states that you normally have to spend ASI's to reach? Oh, and gave you very good magic gear to start with? So the class doesn't work because you and your DM want to break lower levels and not have your party actually be challanged or have the chance of not surviving?
So the Moon druid at 2nd level will allow you to play a Brown Bear with 37 hit point and if you drop to zero you pop back as a 2nd level druid with the same 12 to 16 hit points you had and poof not even using another full action you are a tiger with 37 hit points. Both of these creatures get two attacks per round verse a druid with one. Additionally they have 40 foot movement vs 30 for most player species. Also you can choose to wear items with in reason. A magic ring fits any size finger, your cloak can still be worn on a bear or tiger.
It is a very flexible class that lets a normal character do many fun things. You lost your fun by giving yourself a character with zero flaws in stats, so it took away what this class can be. Play it again sometime when you start out as a normal, slightly better than average low level adventure. You will most likely enjoy the experiance for all the reasons you origionally choose it.
I personally wildshape, go into melee, and if I lose my spell, too bad, I'm still a big hairy thing.
One level in barb might be nice just so if you lose your spell, you can now be a raging beast.
OP is actually pretty spot on IMO. Moon druid is vastly overrate because of the low level experience. Especially when people start talking about nerfing your most powerful feature (spellcasting) by taking levels of barbarian/monk/etc. Low AC is a huge weakness. Optimized tank builds with solid base AC, magic items, the shield spell etc can just avoid damage while your beast gets totally wrecked.