Magic Stone says if someone else attacks with a pebble, that attacker adds your spellcasting modifier, not the attackers, to the attack roll. It does not say that attacker uses your proficiency to the roll. A stone is an improvised weapon so unless the attacker has proficiency with improvised weapons, it appears that attacker can throw the stone 60’ without proficiency or with a sling with proficiency.
Edit: This is incorrect. If someone else attacks with the magic stone, they use their proficiency not the druid’s proficiency for the attack. Thank you CBMoate for finding the text in the PHB that clarifies this.
Ah, that distinction was what I was missing. But that still makes this a weird 3 tier system where you have 30' proficient, 60' non proficient, 120' proficient but disadvantage.
Magic Stone says if someone else attacks with a pebble, that attacker adds your spellcasting modifier, not the attackers, to the attack roll. It does not say that attacker uses your proficiency to the roll. A stone is an improvised weapon so unless the attacker has proficiency with improvised weapons, it appears that attacker can throw the stone 60’ without proficiency or with a sling with proficiency.
Nah son.
From the PHB: "Proficiency Bonus. You add your proficiency bonus to your attack roll when you attack using a weapon with which you have proficiency, as well as when you attack with a spell."
Magic Stone clearly says you're making a ranged spell attack, but with the caster's ability mod. You always add you prof bonus to spell attacks (even if you can't cast spells weirdly enough).
Bill the druid casts magic stone, having a +3 wisdom mod. Joe the ranger takes a stone, adds his prof bonus of +4 and +3 ability mod from Bill, and makes his attack role for a total of +7.
So since this is a spell attack whether thrown or used in a sling, it is always subject to proficiency and never subject to range disadvantage, correct? So a sling increases range to 120’ with no drawback?
So since this is a spell attack whether thrown or used in a sling, it is always subject to proficiency and never subject to range disadvantage, correct? So a sling increases range to 120’ with no drawback?
In theory, the spell is no longer effective after 60ft, and the stone instead becomes a sling bullet that had been launched by the sling weilder.
Uĺtimatly you or your DM decide why. I am just saying the spell description only specifies 60ft, so one interpretation is that the spell is limited to 60ft. Not unlike dancing lights where the light winks out if it exceeds the range
I'm not sure I get that reading. Dancing lights has a range and specifically says that the lights extinguish when they move out of range. Magic Stone's range is touch and specifically says that the spell ends on a stone when it either hits or misses.
In my opinion, they worked so hard to make a spell that couldn’t be abused by other classes that they created a spell that a druid would rarely want to use.
Going back to scaling. If an 11th level fighter with the feat Magic Initiate can make 3 attacks with Magic Stone (or Shillelagh) and not be overpowered then there shouldn’t be a problem with an 11th level druid doing the same thing. I would just house rule that a 5th level druid ( not 5th level character) could make 2 attacks with these cantrips and an 11th level druid can make 3 attacks.
From earlier in the thread, I’m glad to know I was wrong about the proficiency with the magic stones. The correct answer (that everyone is proficient with spells even if it isn’t their spell) just seems to add to the absurdity of most of the rulings regarding Magic Stone. A rogue can’t sneak attack with a thrown magic stone but can with a magic stone with a sling even though it’s apparently a less accurate way to attack with it. Really?
Sometimes I just become so annoyed by RAW and RAI that I just have to find a solution that makes sense to me.
part of the scaling argument needs to include the fact that a party of three can each have a stone and throw it in the same round. Perhaps even arm three peasants with magic stones, the attack roll would remain the same. By virtue of being ammunition, the spell/stones can be split up, moved separately, used at different times by an independent agent. Of Course these are all considerations of how the spell might have value depending on how it is used, not a case for a die for die equivalency to other abilities traits or spells.
I'm not sure I get that reading. Dancing lights has a range and specifically says that the lights extinguish when they move out of range. Magic Stone's range is touch and specifically says that the spell ends on a stone when it either hits or misses.
merely making the case that other spells cease at a defined range. perhaps that precedent could be used to define magic stones behavior after 60ft.
Personally, I am ambivalent, as the 120ft range really won't break the game.
I agree that Magic Stone makes for a spell that doesn't have long lasting appeal, but it could be that the design intent is to offer options that start strong and don't scale as well as ones (like all the other druid cantrips) that offer a weak start but better scaling. Magic stone is best at tier 1, ok at tier 2 (depending on stats), and falls far behind later. But, if you choose a second attack cantrip at 4, then you can start using it instead.
I really just wish that it did scale well because I think it is a perfectly thematic spell for a druid, and I'd much rather be using it than some of the other more bland "I throw insert boring element name here at him." I also think that is most of the problem that others have with it: a spell with a fun theme but a bad execution. (Along with the fact that if you do decide to take it you're stuck with a dead cantrip in one of your precious slots past tier 1.)
Very easy home brew to make it scale but keep it balanced would be something like "Starting at 5th level, you can choose to make a single stone instead of three stones. At 5th level this stone deals 2d6 + Spellcasting Modifier in bludgeoning damage and scales further at 11th level (3d6 + Modifier) and 17th level (4d6 + Modifier).
This keeps it from being an OP way to hand out magic weapons to your team at higher levels while still keeping it relevant. The trade off you are making to have it scale is it costs a bonus action and an action to make 1 attack. Don't really see how this could be exploited too much aside from prepping a single stone right before you are going into a known battle which is not much of an exploit.
Personally the way I rule is due to the wording is it can be used as a ranged spell attack for 60ft range, or as ammunition for a sling.
This is just my reading but a throwing would then have a 60ft range with proficiency+modifier.
Using a sling is becomes ammunition and would have 30/120 range using proficiency+dexterity and modifier for damage.
I agree this spell was more thought through to avoid exploits instead of effectiveness at higher levels. Basically as written past tier 2 it is a wasted cantrip slot.
I'm not sure I get that reading. Dancing lights has a range and specifically says that the lights extinguish when they move out of range. Magic Stone's range is touch and specifically says that the spell ends on a stone when it either hits or misses.
merely making the case that other spells cease at a defined range. perhaps that precedent could be used to define magic stones behavior after 60ft.
Personally, I am ambivalent, as the 120ft range really won't break the game.
A weak case at best. The Magic Stone has a range of "touch" and is a transmutation spell. Mechanically the transmutation school doesn't do anything, but it does give us a hint as to what the intention here was. You're making these stones into something different than their normal form. This allows you to throw them 60 feet (because "magic" *eyeroll*). You can also use them as sling bullets, just as you normally would.
The question is does a using a sling make it magical ammunition?
Consider using sling proficiency+Dexterity+stone modifier and same for damage.
My druid has a +4 dex using +4 ammunition (magic stone). Therefore at tier 3 it would be a +11 to hit with damage being 1d6+8.
Used this way I think the scaling aspect then comes into play.
Some things are right here, some wrong. The ammunition is magical (for the sake of overcoming immunity/resistance).
You're off on how the damage works though. If you attack using a sling, you get to make a normal old ranged attack with it (AKA Proficiency + Dex which might be lower than if you used the caster's spell casting ability score mod) and do damage of 1D6+Spellcasting Mod (you don't get to tack on Dex mod). The damage is replacing the damage the sling would normally do (1D4 + Dex) not adding to it (otherwise, wouldn't it make just as much sense to say you do 1D6+1D4 + Dex + Casting Mod?)
The reason this spell isn't better is action economy. Like someone said, this spell "scales" by allowing someone to make several attacks with it. You can now arm your tanky melee focused fighter with magic stones as a bonus action and then use your action to do something valuable. Then he can make 3 attacks with them (probably at 1D6+4, or 7.5 damage per stone on a hit). That's a great round at tier 2, and not TERRIBLE at round 3 depending on circumstances.
Some things are right here, some wrong. The ammunition is magical (for the sake of overcoming immunity/resistance).
You're off on how the damage works though. If you attack using a sling, you get to make a normal old ranged attack with it (AKA Proficiency + Dex which might be lower than if you used the caster's spell casting ability score mod) and do damage of 1D6+Spellcasting Mod (you don't get to tack on Dex mod).
The spell says: "You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling." You make a ranged spell attack, not a ranged weapon attack, regardless of whether you throw it or hurl it with a sling.
My purpose was to show how to make it scale effectively without breaking the spell to allow scaling at higher levels, not how it should normally work.
This has become more of a suggestion thread to help DMs figure out how to make Magic Stone more effective for Tier 3 and Tier 4. This added attack and damage bonus by simply applying standard rules for magical ammunition was a suggestion to allow scaling for higher tier.
Some things are right here, some wrong. The ammunition is magical (for the sake of overcoming immunity/resistance).
You're off on how the damage works though. If you attack using a sling, you get to make a normal old ranged attack with it (AKA Proficiency + Dex which might be lower than if you used the caster's spell casting ability score mod) and do damage of 1D6+Spellcasting Mod (you don't get to tack on Dex mod).
The spell says: "You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling." You make a ranged spell attack, not a ranged weapon attack, regardless of whether you throw it or hurl it with a sling.
I reread the spell: You're right. So the only advantage to using the sling is the increased range.
Not necessarily, If you hand a a rock enchanted with air magic and earth magic specifically enchanted to accelerate when hurled by hand, then putting it in a sling will make it a lovely sling stone that doesnt trigger its activation properly remaining a stone, nothing more. (possibly still able to be hurled back by its target gaining the magic stone buff). If this example is taken as verbatim then the spell works as the spell describes. It will be up to the DM what he allows you to get away with but the spell description here is 60' range. It doesnt say you can increase the range by dropping it, putting it in a catapult, in a sling shot or fire all three in one volley from a blunderbuss. Its stored magic set to go off in a set way. If your going down this road you will also have to consider if you can inject potions into veins and gargle one in your mouth, to swallow when wounded.
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Magic Stone says if someone else attacks with a pebble, that attacker adds your spellcasting modifier, not the attackers, to the attack roll. It does not say that attacker uses your proficiency to the roll. A stone is an improvised weapon so unless the attacker has proficiency with improvised weapons, it appears that attacker can throw the stone 60’ without proficiency or with a sling with proficiency.
Edit: This is incorrect. If someone else attacks with the magic stone, they use their proficiency not the druid’s proficiency for the attack. Thank you CBMoate for finding the text in the PHB that clarifies this.
Ah, that distinction was what I was missing. But that still makes this a weird 3 tier system where you have 30' proficient, 60' non proficient, 120' proficient but disadvantage.
Nah son.
From the PHB: "Proficiency Bonus. You add your proficiency bonus to your attack roll when you attack using a weapon with which you have proficiency, as well as when you attack with a spell."
Magic Stone clearly says you're making a ranged spell attack, but with the caster's ability mod. You always add you prof bonus to spell attacks (even if you can't cast spells weirdly enough).
Bill the druid casts magic stone, having a +3 wisdom mod. Joe the ranger takes a stone, adds his prof bonus of +4 and +3 ability mod from Bill, and makes his attack role for a total of +7.
So since this is a spell attack whether thrown or used in a sling, it is always subject to proficiency and never subject to range disadvantage, correct? So a sling increases range to 120’ with no drawback?
In theory, the spell is no longer effective after 60ft, and the stone instead becomes a sling bullet that had been launched by the sling weilder.
It is a real good question lol
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
Why?
Uĺtimatly you or your DM decide why. I am just saying the spell description only specifies 60ft, so one interpretation is that the spell is limited to 60ft. Not unlike dancing lights where the light winks out if it exceeds the range
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
I'm not sure I get that reading. Dancing lights has a range and specifically says that the lights extinguish when they move out of range. Magic Stone's range is touch and specifically says that the spell ends on a stone when it either hits or misses.
In my opinion, they worked so hard to make a spell that couldn’t be abused by other classes that they created a spell that a druid would rarely want to use.
Going back to scaling. If an 11th level fighter with the feat Magic Initiate can make 3 attacks with Magic Stone (or Shillelagh) and not be overpowered then there shouldn’t be a problem with an 11th level druid doing the same thing. I would just house rule that a 5th level druid ( not 5th level character) could make 2 attacks with these cantrips and an 11th level druid can make 3 attacks.
From earlier in the thread, I’m glad to know I was wrong about the proficiency with the magic stones. The correct answer (that everyone is proficient with spells even if it isn’t their spell) just seems to add to the absurdity of most of the rulings regarding Magic Stone. A rogue can’t sneak attack with a thrown magic stone but can with a magic stone with a sling even though it’s apparently a less accurate way to attack with it. Really?
Sometimes I just become so annoyed by RAW and RAI that I just have to find a solution that makes sense to me.
part of the scaling argument needs to include the fact that a party of three can each have a stone and throw it in the same round. Perhaps even arm three peasants with magic stones, the attack roll would remain the same. By virtue of being ammunition, the spell/stones can be split up, moved separately, used at different times by an independent agent. Of Course these are all considerations of how the spell might have value depending on how it is used, not a case for a die for die equivalency to other abilities traits or spells.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
merely making the case that other spells cease at a defined range. perhaps that precedent could be used to define magic stones behavior after 60ft.
Personally, I am ambivalent, as the 120ft range really won't break the game.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
I agree that Magic Stone makes for a spell that doesn't have long lasting appeal, but it could be that the design intent is to offer options that start strong and don't scale as well as ones (like all the other druid cantrips) that offer a weak start but better scaling. Magic stone is best at tier 1, ok at tier 2 (depending on stats), and falls far behind later. But, if you choose a second attack cantrip at 4, then you can start using it instead.
I really just wish that it did scale well because I think it is a perfectly thematic spell for a druid, and I'd much rather be using it than some of the other more bland "I throw insert boring element name here at him." I also think that is most of the problem that others have with it: a spell with a fun theme but a bad execution. (Along with the fact that if you do decide to take it you're stuck with a dead cantrip in one of your precious slots past tier 1.)
Very easy home brew to make it scale but keep it balanced would be something like "Starting at 5th level, you can choose to make a single stone instead of three stones. At 5th level this stone deals 2d6 + Spellcasting Modifier in bludgeoning damage and scales further at 11th level (3d6 + Modifier) and 17th level (4d6 + Modifier).
This keeps it from being an OP way to hand out magic weapons to your team at higher levels while still keeping it relevant. The trade off you are making to have it scale is it costs a bonus action and an action to make 1 attack. Don't really see how this could be exploited too much aside from prepping a single stone right before you are going into a known battle which is not much of an exploit.
Personally the way I rule is due to the wording is it can be used as a ranged spell attack for 60ft range, or as ammunition for a sling.
This is just my reading but a throwing would then have a 60ft range with proficiency+modifier.
Using a sling is becomes ammunition and would have 30/120 range using proficiency+dexterity and modifier for damage.
I agree this spell was more thought through to avoid exploits instead of effectiveness at higher levels. Basically as written past tier 2 it is a wasted cantrip slot.
The question is does a using a sling make it magical ammunition?
In this case it would be a sling with +modifier magic ammunition. That would actually make this useful for hits at higher tiers.
Consider using sling proficiency+Dexterity+stone modifier and same for damage.
My druid has a +4 dex using +4 ammunition (magic stone). Therefore at tier 3 it would be a +11 to hit with damage being 1d6+8.
Used this way I think the scaling aspect then comes into play.
A weak case at best. The Magic Stone has a range of "touch" and is a transmutation spell. Mechanically the transmutation school doesn't do anything, but it does give us a hint as to what the intention here was. You're making these stones into something different than their normal form. This allows you to throw them 60 feet (because "magic" *eyeroll*). You can also use them as sling bullets, just as you normally would.
Some things are right here, some wrong. The ammunition is magical (for the sake of overcoming immunity/resistance).
You're off on how the damage works though. If you attack using a sling, you get to make a normal old ranged attack with it (AKA Proficiency + Dex which might be lower than if you used the caster's spell casting ability score mod) and do damage of 1D6+Spellcasting Mod (you don't get to tack on Dex mod). The damage is replacing the damage the sling would normally do (1D4 + Dex) not adding to it (otherwise, wouldn't it make just as much sense to say you do 1D6+1D4 + Dex + Casting Mod?)
The reason this spell isn't better is action economy. Like someone said, this spell "scales" by allowing someone to make several attacks with it. You can now arm your tanky melee focused fighter with magic stones as a bonus action and then use your action to do something valuable. Then he can make 3 attacks with them (probably at 1D6+4, or 7.5 damage per stone on a hit). That's a great round at tier 2, and not TERRIBLE at round 3 depending on circumstances.
The spell says: "You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling." You make a ranged spell attack, not a ranged weapon attack, regardless of whether you throw it or hurl it with a sling.
@InquisitiveCoder
My purpose was to show how to make it scale effectively without breaking the spell to allow scaling at higher levels, not how it should normally work.
This has become more of a suggestion thread to help DMs figure out how to make Magic Stone more effective for Tier 3 and Tier 4. This added attack and damage bonus by simply applying standard rules for magical ammunition was a suggestion to allow scaling for higher tier.
I reread the spell: You're right. So the only advantage to using the sling is the increased range.
Not necessarily, If you hand a a rock enchanted with air magic and earth magic specifically enchanted to accelerate when hurled by hand, then putting it in a sling will make it a lovely sling stone that doesnt trigger its activation properly remaining a stone, nothing more. (possibly still able to be hurled back by its target gaining the magic stone buff). If this example is taken as verbatim then the spell works as the spell describes. It will be up to the DM what he allows you to get away with but the spell description here is 60' range. It doesnt say you can increase the range by dropping it, putting it in a catapult, in a sling shot or fire all three in one volley from a blunderbuss. Its stored magic set to go off in a set way. If your going down this road you will also have to consider if you can inject potions into veins and gargle one in your mouth, to swallow when wounded.