So I am starting a druid for my new campaign, and decided Magic Stone would be extremely useful as a cantrip.
LEVEL
Cantrip
CASTING TIME
1 Bonus Action
RANGE/AREA
Touch
COMPONENTS
V, S
DURATION
1 Minute
SCHOOL
Transmutation
ATTACK/SAVE
Ranged
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Bludgeoning
You touch one to three pebbles and imbue them with magic. You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling. If thrown, it has a range of 60 feet. If someone else attacks with the pebble, that attacker adds your spellcasting ability modifier, not the attacker’s, to the attack roll. On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Hit or miss, the spell then ends on the stone.
If you cast this spell again, the spell ends early on any pebbles still affected by it.
Curious if anyone else has noticed this, or if I missed a basic rule within the companion that says it does scale like other cantrips.
I think that these cantrips are very useful at low levels (1-10) because are cast as a bonus action, add the spellcasting ability modifier to the damage, and are attacks (they can do a critical hit).
Shillelagh and Magic Stone don't scale because they create or modify weapons and higher level characters usually make more weapon attacks than lower level characters. Also, other classes can get access to spells outside their class list through feats or class features.
For example, a Hunter Ranger can learn Druid cantrips through the Magic Initiate feat or multiclassing and combine Shillelagh with Whirlwind Attack or Magic Stone with Volley. Likewise, Warlocks can learn Magic Stone naturally and gain an extra attack through Pact of the Blade and the Thirsting Blade invocation. Any character can gain a extra attacks with a quarterstaff through the Polearm Master feat.
Also remember that you can give the stones to your friends, which gives characters that might not have a magic weapon access to magical attacks. A Rogue can Sneak Attack with Magic Stone using a sling.
Right but I've been doing the math on this and even at 3 attacks per turn scaled it would be 9-29 damage for 3 attacks, which is basically barb or arcane archer damage anyway. So any character that could "exploit" this like a Fighter or Warlock, actually does less using the Magic Stone nuke than normal use of their abilities.
Right but I've been doing the math on this and even at 3 attacks per turn scaled it would be 9-29 damage for 3 attacks, which is basically barb or arcane archer damage anyway. So any character that could "exploit" this like a Fighter or Warlock, actually does less using the Magic Stone nuke than normal use of their abilities.
Just to be clear: with 3 attacks, unscaled as written, it's 3D6+3X Casting Score Mod (we'll boldly assume the character has a 16/+3) for a total of 12-27 on 3 hits and an average of 6.5 per hit
Now using your level increasing damage, it moves up to 15-45 on 3 hits and 10 average damage per hit with the 5th level bump, and 27-63 on 3 hits with an average of 13.5 per hit at the 11th level bump.
None of these numbers account for critical hits. This spell is a cantrip with a casting time of Bonus Action.
This spell cannot scale the way you want because that is some straight OP.
Everyone has answered this already so well but just wanted to share one of my favorite fun tricks with Magic stone. It can be thrown accurately up to 60 feet. There are various ways you can get the magic stone and light cantrips. Cast light on the magic stone and you have a 20ft radius light beacon that you can throw accurately up to 60 feet. It's great for all sorts of things such as exploring large underground caverns when not worrying about stealth, testing areas for mechanical traps, signal flare for a group sneak attack, distract guard dogs. Fun little trick :)
If you wild shape into an ape you can throw it. Also, since it's a bonus action, it means you can cast it first then wild shape in the same turn. This is not to say this is the greatest thing ever, but it's a decent way to do a little damage and conserve your spellcasting resources if that's relevant to the situation. And it has better range than thorn whip. Plus you always get style points for throwing rocks in a fight.
It sort of scales because your damage modifier should theoretically be increasing as you level up. This isn't like getting an entire extra die of damage, of course, but it's something.
in general; actions scale, bonus actions do not, also the extra attack from polearm master does not benefit from the shillelagh spell. this is stated in sage advice.
I've always read this as taking a bonus action to imbue the magic into the stones but read the "ranged spell attack" as taking an action. You seem to be saying the casting and attack are all a bonus action. This seems very OP for a cantrip. Has this been clarified somewhere in a tweet or sage advice?
this cantrip creates ammunition, 3 at a time. It takes an action to make a ranged spell attack that consumes one stone. you can have 3 friends throw the stones in the same round, you can throw them one at a time for 3 rounds, whatever you like. they will never benefit from the extra attack feature as that requires the attack action as opposed to the ranged spell attack action.
edit, I could be wrong about extra attack. but that definitely feels right.
this cantrip creates ammunition, 3 at a time. It takes an action to make a ranged spell attack that consumes one stone. you can have 3 friends throw the stones in the same round, you can throw them one at a time for 3 rounds, whatever you like. they will never benefit from the extra attack feature as that requires the attack action as opposed to the ranged spell attack action.
edit, I could be wrong about extra attack. but that definitely feels right.
Incorrect.
Example. Joe the druid/fighter casts Magic stone as a bonus action and makes 3 magic stones. He uses his attack action to make a ranged spell attack. Note, he is NOT casting a second spell on his turn, just making a type of attack. Now, since Joe is also an 8th level fighter he can use his attack action to make 2 attacks instead of just one. These can be melee attacks, ranged attacks, or even spell attacks! The limiting factor isn't on how many spell attacks you can make a turn, it's how many spells you can cast per turn.
Now, since you seem to feel that this isn't right, let's replace "magic stones" with +1 Javelins. They're magic weapons (like our stones) they're also thrown weapons (like the stones). When you attack with them, you don't cast a spell, you make a ranged weapon attack (which is extremely similar to a ranged spell attack, and functions the same except for the skill mod involved). Nobody is arguing that you can't throw 2 Javelins if you have the ability to make 2 attacks, right?
TL;dr- The spell makes magic bullets, which you can throw like any other thrown weapon/object, and which benefit from multiple attacks accordingly.
Further clarification: Most spells that use a ranged spell attack do so as part of their casting (See Chill Touch for example). What we're dealing with is a weird exception to that where the spell is basically creating magical weapons for the player to use.
I went back and forth on this a bunch of times and considered the points you raised both before and after your post. and no I am not settled on it, because it is unprecedented.
there is no other situation, I think, that would allow your ally to use the attack action to attack multiple times as a ranged spell attack using your modifier.
that being said it is reasonable to interpret:
" You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling."
as one single stone per attack action or as you have with multiple one stone attacks that are part of an attack action that has extras.
in general; actions scale, bonus actions do not, also the extra attack from polearm master does not benefit from the shillelagh spell. this is stated in sage advice.
The damage die would still a d4 because it's determined by the feat and not the weapon, but you'd get all the other benefits of Shillelagh.
Personally I think that is a DM call. As stated it is basically ammunition. I would think that using a sling would make it a finesse attack with magic damage and the range would be sling range.
For example: I use sling to throw the magic stone...sling requires finesse and I am making a ranged attack with ammunition. Therefore my Proficiency + Dex is my attack roll.
My damage roll however is modified by the ammunition meaning that the damage is 1d6+modifier for damage.
sling has a range of 30/120 vice 60 for a thrown magic stone. If I were ruling on this I would say a sling with magic stone ammo has a 60/120 range.
personally I would not mess with the modifier mechanic. it is already a spell with a clunky description.
I would leave as a Sling would grant you a range of 120 ft. with disadvantage, where if you were to throw it would be at 60 max. But I am not sure if the range bonus given by use of the sling would be at disadvantage due to the statement about ranged spell attack. I do not believe that ranged spell attacks have disadvantage applied to them, other then half or 3 quarters cover which just raise targets AC by +2/+5 respectively. I would keep the lower range at 60/120 with a sling as I myself do not think that the use of a sling should hinder the use of a magical projectile in this case. I do also think that use of the sling was Rule As Intended to make the sling range 120 feet.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So I am starting a druid for my new campaign, and decided Magic Stone would be extremely useful as a cantrip.
You touch one to three pebbles and imbue them with magic. You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling. If thrown, it has a range of 60 feet. If someone else attacks with the pebble, that attacker adds your spellcasting ability modifier, not the attacker’s, to the attack roll. On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Hit or miss, the spell then ends on the stone.
If you cast this spell again, the spell ends early on any pebbles still affected by it.
Curious if anyone else has noticed this, or if I missed a basic rule within the companion that says it does scale like other cantrips.
Like Shillelagh, Magic Stone does not scale with the character level.
I think that these cantrips are very useful at low levels (1-10) because are cast as a bonus action, add the spellcasting ability modifier to the damage, and are attacks (they can do a critical hit).
Shillelagh and Magic Stone don't scale because they create or modify weapons and higher level characters usually make more weapon attacks than lower level characters. Also, other classes can get access to spells outside their class list through feats or class features.
For example, a Hunter Ranger can learn Druid cantrips through the Magic Initiate feat or multiclassing and combine Shillelagh with Whirlwind Attack or Magic Stone with Volley. Likewise, Warlocks can learn Magic Stone naturally and gain an extra attack through Pact of the Blade and the Thirsting Blade invocation. Any character can gain a extra attacks with a quarterstaff through the Polearm Master feat.
Also remember that you can give the stones to your friends, which gives characters that might not have a magic weapon access to magical attacks. A Rogue can Sneak Attack with Magic Stone using a sling.
Right but I've been doing the math on this and even at 3 attacks per turn scaled it would be 9-29 damage for 3 attacks, which is basically barb or arcane archer damage anyway. So any character that could "exploit" this like a Fighter or Warlock, actually does less using the Magic Stone nuke than normal use of their abilities.
Now using your level increasing damage, it moves up to 15-45 on 3 hits and 10 average damage per hit with the 5th level bump, and 27-63 on 3 hits with an average of 13.5 per hit at the 11th level bump.
None of these numbers account for critical hits.
This spell is a cantrip with a casting time of Bonus Action.
Everyone has answered this already so well but just wanted to share one of my favorite fun tricks with Magic stone. It can be thrown accurately up to 60 feet. There are various ways you can get the magic stone and light cantrips. Cast light on the magic stone and you have a 20ft radius light beacon that you can throw accurately up to 60 feet. It's great for all sorts of things such as exploring large underground caverns when not worrying about stealth, testing areas for mechanical traps, signal flare for a group sneak attack, distract guard dogs. Fun little trick :)
If you wild shape into an ape you can throw it. Also, since it's a bonus action, it means you can cast it first then wild shape in the same turn. This is not to say this is the greatest thing ever, but it's a decent way to do a little damage and conserve your spellcasting resources if that's relevant to the situation. And it has better range than thorn whip. Plus you always get style points for throwing rocks in a fight.
It sort of scales because your damage modifier should theoretically be increasing as you level up. This isn't like getting an entire extra die of damage, of course, but it's something.
in general; actions scale, bonus actions do not, also the extra attack from polearm master does not benefit from the shillelagh spell. this is stated in sage advice.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
I've always read this as taking a bonus action to imbue the magic into the stones but read the "ranged spell attack" as taking an action. You seem to be saying the casting and attack are all a bonus action. This seems very OP for a cantrip. Has this been clarified somewhere in a tweet or sage advice?
this cantrip creates ammunition, 3 at a time. It takes an action to make a ranged spell attack that consumes one stone. you can have 3 friends throw the stones in the same round, you can throw them one at a time for 3 rounds, whatever you like. they will never benefit from the extra attack feature as that requires the attack action as opposed to the ranged spell attack action.
edit, I could be wrong about extra attack. but that definitely feels right.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
Incorrect.
Example. Joe the druid/fighter casts Magic stone as a bonus action and makes 3 magic stones. He uses his attack action to make a ranged spell attack. Note, he is NOT casting a second spell on his turn, just making a type of attack. Now, since Joe is also an 8th level fighter he can use his attack action to make 2 attacks instead of just one. These can be melee attacks, ranged attacks, or even spell attacks! The limiting factor isn't on how many spell attacks you can make a turn, it's how many spells you can cast per turn.
Now, since you seem to feel that this isn't right, let's replace "magic stones" with +1 Javelins. They're magic weapons (like our stones) they're also thrown weapons (like the stones). When you attack with them, you don't cast a spell, you make a ranged weapon attack (which is extremely similar to a ranged spell attack, and functions the same except for the skill mod involved). Nobody is arguing that you can't throw 2 Javelins if you have the ability to make 2 attacks, right?
TL;dr- The spell makes magic bullets, which you can throw like any other thrown weapon/object, and which benefit from multiple attacks accordingly.
Further clarification: Most spells that use a ranged spell attack do so as part of their casting (See Chill Touch for example). What we're dealing with is a weird exception to that where the spell is basically creating magical weapons for the player to use.
I went back and forth on this a bunch of times and considered the points you raised both before and after your post. and no I am not settled on it, because it is unprecedented.
there is no other situation, I think, that would allow your ally to use the attack action to attack multiple times as a ranged spell attack using your modifier.
that being said it is reasonable to interpret:
" You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling."
as one single stone per attack action or as you have with multiple one stone attacks that are part of an attack action that has extras.
anyway extra attack sounds best at this point
cheers
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
Hadn’t considered the modifier with multiple attacks in my original post, with that added in I can see why there is no scaling. Thanks for the threAd.
3d6+15 is basically a tier 2 ranger with DW using action and bonus action and can’t give that to others unlike the Druid with magic stone.
The damage die would still a d4 because it's determined by the feat and not the weapon, but you'd get all the other benefits of Shillelagh.
On a somewhat related note, is it just my reading of it or is using a sling actually worse than just throwing the stone?
Personally I think that is a DM call. As stated it is basically ammunition. I would think that using a sling would make it a finesse attack with magic damage and the range would be sling range.
For example: I use sling to throw the magic stone...sling requires finesse and I am making a ranged attack with ammunition. Therefore my Proficiency + Dex is my attack roll.
My damage roll however is modified by the ammunition meaning that the damage is 1d6+modifier for damage.
sling has a range of 30/120 vice 60 for a thrown magic stone. If I were ruling on this I would say a sling with magic stone ammo has a 60/120 range.
personally I would not mess with the modifier mechanic. it is already a spell with a clunky description.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
I would leave as a Sling would grant you a range of 120 ft. with disadvantage, where if you were to throw it would be at 60 max. But I am not sure if the range bonus given by use of the sling would be at disadvantage due to the statement about ranged spell attack. I do not believe that ranged spell attacks have disadvantage applied to them, other then half or 3 quarters cover which just raise targets AC by +2/+5 respectively. I would keep the lower range at 60/120 with a sling as I myself do not think that the use of a sling should hinder the use of a magical projectile in this case. I do also think that use of the sling was Rule As Intended to make the sling range 120 feet.