The Thing with this Interaction is that It doesn't REally work by RaW. But there is a big ole grey area in interpretation that many have wanted to use with Tough to make their beasts stronger. So they had to make a ruling about he Intent to backup raw and fill in the grey area.
The Flat truth of the Matter by RaW is that when you wild Shape it outright replaces everything to do with your HP and Hit dice. Including all the things modifying it. So Tough is in fact boosting your hp but not the way most people think in Wild Shape. Because It boosts your HP and then Wild Shape comes in with it's specificity and outright overwrites said boosted HP and hit dice for the duration of your time in that shape. So it's affecting your hp just not the HP your actively using while wildshaped.
Players and DM's tend to be a bit lenient on what all works through Wild Shape because they left it fairly unclear so a lot more feats and abilities get through than probably should.
Grappler is a fine example. Grappling is so ill defined and generally acessable that most are inclined to allow it to apply to just about everything. Everybody knows about the whole shape changing into a bear to grapple and pin a target so they can't go anywhere. The problem is that Grappling has this issue that one of it's few requirements in all of it's grey area mechanics is actually requiring at least one hand to grapple with (with an indication that Intent may be more than one hand in plenty of situations),which is An Appendage that a Bear does not have. Nor does it have some ability that supersedes that requirement like a Constrictor Snake does that allows it to grapple anyway. But this is a tactic that you see as acceptable at almost all tables anyway. So since your in a situation where Grapple slides through all kinds of restrictions into wild Shape. Grappler which basically only modifies Grapple will gets through as well in all of those same places.
You might be right on grappling - that it isn't RAW allowed, though you'll find several monsters with an actual grapple action in their stat blocks without hands. But there is a difference still between grappler and tough: one modifies an ability that the text of wild shape doesn't mention specifically (grappling), whereas the other makes a change (an increase to HP that you gain when you take the feat) that is specifically mentioned as replaced in wild shape.
One changes something about an action that a creature take (that in theory monsters can still take), whereas the other is a change about the statistics of a creature (that in theory are replaced very directly). I still see them as different for that reason.
And again, I don't understand how anyone could consider a druid whose humanoid form retains those additional HP as "not benefiting" from the feat already. Total HP for a wild shaped tough druid to unconscious should be (Beast + Tough + Druid), not (Tough + Beast + Tough + Druid). If you care at all about those additional HP only counting once, the easiest way to do that is to use RAW. I guess a reasonable house rule might be to allow the beast to absorb damage from those Tough HP, but then start the druid"s HP without them when you do finally revert. Receiving double benefit from the feat is the real problem with allowing tough to apply to the shape shifted forms.
I did say there were animal Exceptions to Grapple that call themselves out when I mentioned the Constrictor Snake which is one of those creatures that gets to grapple despite not having the requisite hands needed to grapple in the first place.
And what I mean about them being the Same is more that I mean that they don't necessarily Apply even though people want to make them nebulous and grey area enough to carry over. Despite the way they work and when they apply being pretty clear and it's entirely allowing them to do too much when you stick them Onto the animal form itself. I didn't say that it wasn't still in effect. It certainly is. It's just that the effect is then over-ridden by the specificity of Wild Shape.
Ok granted RAI no. RAW yes. My opinion is the wildshape is the base. You can then add your feats on top of the base. And unless you think you should rewrite the whole thing! I mean there are racial feats like Dwarven Fortitude... racial resistances that don't apply to the ( bear or giant snake or whatever). I think this is a case of a difference between Wildshape and Polymorph. And I think it is ok as wildshape is weaker the higher level you go in respect to monsters you face
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
Would feat not go under that? As it's technically a "class feature" or as i.e. a human variant, a "race feature".
It's written after the rule of the beasts hit dice and to me, that would mean that the feat is added after the reset, which makes sense and honestly a tough feat for druid is not at all OP, compared to what other classes get.
Somewhat older thread, but figured I'd weigh in with my own reasoning RAW or RAI.
For me, the following lines of text lead me to believe that the Tough feat does apply to Wild Shape.
Wild Shape rules:
When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked unconscious.
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
Tough feat rules:
Your hit point maximum increases by an amount equal to twice your level when you gain this feat. Whenever you gain a level thereafter, your hit point maximum increases by an additional 2 hit points.
Hit point rules:
Hit Points
Hit Dice:1d8 per druid level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels:1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per druid level after 1st
So a druid's "natural" hit points at level 8 would 8 + 7x5 + 8x Constitution modifier. Ie. a Druid's with +2 constitution would have 59 hit points. Following the wording of the Tough feat, the druid who gains this feat at level 8 will have their hit point maximum increased by 16-- it does not mention that it's a one-time event though. The druid's hit points are 59 + 16 from Tough. Since Wild Shape says you retain features, I would argue that when you shift into wild shape, you continue to have the benefit of "your hit point maximum is increased by 16". Hence, a Cave bear (CR 2) has a maximum hit points of 42, which are then subsequently increased by 16 due to the Tough feat.
At level 8, that might actually balance the Cave Bear into being a viable choice, as it's base AC 12 and 42 hit points mean that usually the druid won't even last a round of attacks at that level. (And before anyone says it, 1) Barkskin is kind of a non-option, as AC 16 is still easy to hit at that level and a +3 constitution save means Barkskin is likely lost after 2 hits, and 2) Mage armor doesn't stack with natural armor and would increase AC only to 13.)
In the end, it's a thing you should agree on with your DM as they will need to balance it out in their campaign. In organized play, it might be a little bit harder though.
Great convo. Tough is truly a tough case (pun intended) for the WS RAW. There's some ambiguity in the WS guidelines about how ability scores, their modifiers, related proficiencies and saving throws are treated during WS. On the one hand, the PH says that the druid (only) retains their Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores in WS" (PH, p. 67), which implies that the druid must accept the Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity of the beast in WS. On the other hand, the PH says "you retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies [from all ability scores]...and if the creature has the same proficiency as you, and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creatures instead of yours." (PH, p. 67) The way I interpret the inconsistency is broadly, accepting the meaning and spirit of the 2nd quote: a druid chooses the maximum ability scores (for all 6 ability scores, not just Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma) of the druid or the beast, which confers the modifiers and benefits on saving throws of the maximum individual ability score. One reason for this broad interpretation that the RAW does say that the druid can maintain concentration on a spell during WS as long as the spell was cast prior to WS-ing. And I'd assume that the druid would retain their modifiers and bonuses for saving throws from their Constitution during WS.
That said, tough only benefits hit points. So, although the RAW are inconsistent about ability scores, modifiers, bonuses for saving throws, the PH is very clear about hit points in WS: "when you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice" (PH, p. 67) For example, the RAW doesn't say to add your Constitution modifier to the beast's HP. For this reason, I wouldn't think a druid should add the HP bonus from a feat like tough.
Last, all of this comes from someone who loves druids.
I would counter that tough isn't a constitution modifier though. Tough is a feat that increases your maximum hitpoints.
It's also not a one time event (ie at time of leveling), otherwise you would not get those increases returned after your maximum hitpoints were drained by some undead creatures. (as your maximum is based on your constitution).
If you accept that a feat like Mobile applies in wildshape, you would need to accept that Tough also applies, since both are feats.
...when you transform, you assume the beast's hit points [and Hit Dice] (PH, p. 67)
Re mobility, strictly speaking, in the discussion of WS, the PH is silent on speed. The PH just says:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
But speed is a stat in a stat block. The PH says that only game stats that Druids always maintain during WS are alignment, personality, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. For other stats like speed, the PH explicitly says that during WS, the Druid maintains whichever stat is greater from the Druid or beast. So, for any given stat in a stat block, the RAW in PH says pick the maximum. It doesn't say to combine the stat of the beast with the stat of the Druid (i.e., stacking proficiency bonuses, etc.).
The Thing with this Interaction is that It doesn't REally work by RaW. But there is a big ole grey area in interpretation that many have wanted to use with Tough to make their beasts stronger. So they had to make a ruling about he Intent to backup raw and fill in the grey area.
The Flat truth of the Matter by RaW is that when you wild Shape it outright replaces everything to do with your HP and Hit dice. Including all the things modifying it. So Tough is in fact boosting your hp but not the way most people think in Wild Shape. Because It boosts your HP and then Wild Shape comes in with it's specificity and outright overwrites said boosted HP and hit dice for the duration of your time in that shape. So it's affecting your hp just not the HP your actively using while wildshaped.
Players and DM's tend to be a bit lenient on what all works through Wild Shape because they left it fairly unclear so a lot more feats and abilities get through than probably should.
Grappler is a fine example. Grappling is so ill defined and generally acessable that most are inclined to allow it to apply to just about everything. Everybody knows about the whole shape changing into a bear to grapple and pin a target so they can't go anywhere. The problem is that Grappling has this issue that one of it's few requirements in all of it's grey area mechanics is actually requiring at least one hand to grapple with (with an indication that Intent may be more than one hand in plenty of situations),which is An Appendage that a Bear does not have. Nor does it have some ability that supersedes that requirement like a Constrictor Snake does that allows it to grapple anyway. But this is a tactic that you see as acceptable at almost all tables anyway. So since your in a situation where Grapple slides through all kinds of restrictions into wild Shape. Grappler which basically only modifies Grapple will gets through as well in all of those same places.
You might be right on grappling - that it isn't RAW allowed, though you'll find several monsters with an actual grapple action in their stat blocks without hands. But there is a difference still between grappler and tough: one modifies an ability that the text of wild shape doesn't mention specifically (grappling), whereas the other makes a change (an increase to HP that you gain when you take the feat) that is specifically mentioned as replaced in wild shape.
One changes something about an action that a creature take (that in theory monsters can still take), whereas the other is a change about the statistics of a creature (that in theory are replaced very directly). I still see them as different for that reason.
And again, I don't understand how anyone could consider a druid whose humanoid form retains those additional HP as "not benefiting" from the feat already. Total HP for a wild shaped tough druid to unconscious should be (Beast + Tough + Druid), not (Tough + Beast + Tough + Druid). If you care at all about those additional HP only counting once, the easiest way to do that is to use RAW. I guess a reasonable house rule might be to allow the beast to absorb damage from those Tough HP, but then start the druid"s HP without them when you do finally revert. Receiving double benefit from the feat is the real problem with allowing tough to apply to the shape shifted forms.
I did say there were animal Exceptions to Grapple that call themselves out when I mentioned the Constrictor Snake which is one of those creatures that gets to grapple despite not having the requisite hands needed to grapple in the first place.
And what I mean about them being the Same is more that I mean that they don't necessarily Apply even though people want to make them nebulous and grey area enough to carry over. Despite the way they work and when they apply being pretty clear and it's entirely allowing them to do too much when you stick them Onto the animal form itself. I didn't say that it wasn't still in effect. It certainly is. It's just that the effect is then over-ridden by the specificity of Wild Shape.
Charger seems like a good feat for a Druid to take.....
Ok granted RAI no. RAW yes. My opinion is the wildshape is the base. You can then add your feats on top of the base. And unless you think you should rewrite the whole thing! I mean there are racial feats like Dwarven Fortitude... racial resistances that don't apply to the ( bear or giant snake or whatever). I think this is a case of a difference between Wildshape and Polymorph. And I think it is ok as wildshape is weaker the higher level you go in respect to monsters you face
Wildshape says :
Would feat not go under that? As it's technically a "class feature" or as i.e. a human variant, a "race feature".
It's written after the rule of the beasts hit dice and to me, that would mean that the feat is added after the reset, which makes sense and honestly a tough feat for druid is not at all OP, compared to what other classes get.
Somewhat older thread, but figured I'd weigh in with my own reasoning RAW or RAI.
For me, the following lines of text lead me to believe that the Tough feat does apply to Wild Shape.
Wild Shape rules:
Tough feat rules:
Hit point rules:
So a druid's "natural" hit points at level 8 would 8 + 7x5 + 8x Constitution modifier. Ie. a Druid's with +2 constitution would have 59 hit points. Following the wording of the Tough feat, the druid who gains this feat at level 8 will have their hit point maximum increased by 16-- it does not mention that it's a one-time event though. The druid's hit points are 59 + 16 from Tough. Since Wild Shape says you retain features, I would argue that when you shift into wild shape, you continue to have the benefit of "your hit point maximum is increased by 16". Hence, a Cave bear (CR 2) has a maximum hit points of 42, which are then subsequently increased by 16 due to the Tough feat.
At level 8, that might actually balance the Cave Bear into being a viable choice, as it's base AC 12 and 42 hit points mean that usually the druid won't even last a round of attacks at that level. (And before anyone says it, 1) Barkskin is kind of a non-option, as AC 16 is still easy to hit at that level and a +3 constitution save means Barkskin is likely lost after 2 hits, and 2) Mage armor doesn't stack with natural armor and would increase AC only to 13.)
In the end, it's a thing you should agree on with your DM as they will need to balance it out in their campaign. In organized play, it might be a little bit harder though.
Great convo. Tough is truly a tough case (pun intended) for the WS RAW. There's some ambiguity in the WS guidelines about how ability scores, their modifiers, related proficiencies and saving throws are treated during WS. On the one hand, the PH says that the druid (only) retains their Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores in WS" (PH, p. 67), which implies that the druid must accept the Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity of the beast in WS. On the other hand, the PH says "you retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies [from all ability scores]...and if the creature has the same proficiency as you, and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creatures instead of yours." (PH, p. 67) The way I interpret the inconsistency is broadly, accepting the meaning and spirit of the 2nd quote: a druid chooses the maximum ability scores (for all 6 ability scores, not just Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma) of the druid or the beast, which confers the modifiers and benefits on saving throws of the maximum individual ability score. One reason for this broad interpretation that the RAW does say that the druid can maintain concentration on a spell during WS as long as the spell was cast prior to WS-ing. And I'd assume that the druid would retain their modifiers and bonuses for saving throws from their Constitution during WS.
That said, tough only benefits hit points. So, although the RAW are inconsistent about ability scores, modifiers, bonuses for saving throws, the PH is very clear about hit points in WS: "when you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice" (PH, p. 67) For example, the RAW doesn't say to add your Constitution modifier to the beast's HP. For this reason, I wouldn't think a druid should add the HP bonus from a feat like tough.
Last, all of this comes from someone who loves druids.
Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in the last year.
I would counter that tough isn't a constitution modifier though. Tough is a feat that increases your maximum hitpoints.
It's also not a one time event (ie at time of leveling), otherwise you would not get those increases returned after your maximum hitpoints were drained by some undead creatures. (as your maximum is based on your constitution).
If you accept that a feat like Mobile applies in wildshape, you would need to accept that Tough also applies, since both are feats.
The PH is very clear on hit points.
Re mobility, strictly speaking, in the discussion of WS, the PH is silent on speed. The PH just says:
But speed is a stat in a stat block. The PH says that only game stats that Druids always maintain during WS are alignment, personality, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. For other stats like speed, the PH explicitly says that during WS, the Druid maintains whichever stat is greater from the Druid or beast. So, for any given stat in a stat block, the RAW in PH says pick the maximum. It doesn't say to combine the stat of the beast with the stat of the Druid (i.e., stacking proficiency bonuses, etc.).
Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in the last year.