Sadly, there are no Monster Manual or Volo's Guide dinosaurs which hold a candle to the Dire Wolf as a CR 1 druid shift option. It's awesome that Deinonychus gets 3× multiattack, but the damage output is low and at 30% fewer hitpoints and lower AC, not so great (plus, you loose perception, stealth, and pack tactics).
So, high hopes for Beasts of the Jungle Rot announced as AL-legal options — but, ugh. The Dilophosaurus gives you a ranged poison spit, but with low DC and the same low HP, low AC drawbacks vs Dire Wolf. And Troodon keeps pack tactics, at least, but same other drawbacks and lower strength means lower to hit and less damage.
And there's no ½ CR dinosaurs at all, so no bones thrown to Land druids.
I'm not asking for better than the Dire Wolf, but it'd be nice to have a thematically awesome equivalent. Sure, many DMs will let you use a different creature's stats and call it a dinosaur, but in AL play, you never know.
I too am looking forward to any book that adds more Beasts. I want more variety and styles. I wish 5e had kept the idea of "templates" from 3rd edition. I liked having "it's an Orc Skeleton" or a "Gnoll Zombie" as a template you added onto a base creature.
I liked how Beasts had "Dire" and "Giant" as templates to add on.
I also want more "bug" type. It might be just me but I've watch A LOT of "Bug Wars" on Youtube and I really want to play more insect/arachnid forms!
Once you hit CR:2 you can only be Large or Huge! It restricts environments the power is useful in
Deinonychus has 2 less points of strength, 10 less HP, 1 less AC, no Training in Stealth, no Keen Hearing and Smell, and no Pack Tactics.
Of these things I think Pack Tactics is the biggest buff the Dire Wolf has as over Deinonychus.
Deinonychus has Multiattack (3 attacks!) and Pounce.
The Dire Wolf throws everything into a single attack. Pack Tactics means you almost always have Adv on the attack roll and once you hit they make a DC:13 check or are knocked prone.
The Deinonychus is a Medium sized creature, this can be very important as terrain will be less of an issue as Medium.
IF theDeinonychus is 20 feet away from the enemy moves 20 feet (straight line) and initiates a Multi-Attack: 2 claws and a bite.
IF either of the claw attacks hit the enemy makes a DC:12 check or is knocked prone... all subsequent attacks by the Deinonychus now have Advantage.
Read Pounce again: "Pounce. If the deinonychus moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature and then hits it with a claw attack on the same turn, that target must succeed on a DC 12 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. If the target is prone, the deinonychus can make one bite attack against it as a bonus action."
IF an enemy is prone the Deinonychus can make a bite attack as a Bonus Action.
This means the Deinonychus can attack 4 times in a turn and up to 3 of those attacks can be at Adv. That's a possible 1d8+2 * 4! (average 26 if all hits) vs the Dire Wolf's average of 10 damage. ( average of 2d6+3)
as a Deinonychus if you hit you can choose to take an AoO from a prone enemy (they have DisAdv, to then move 20 feet away). Now you can rinse and repeat this over and over and over again. IF you also take Mobility as a Feat your now moving 50ft a round and don't take that AoO.
You are right the Deinonychus is a glass cannon vs the Dire Wolf. In a stand up fight you want to be a Dire Wolf standing next to the Fighter. In terrain that allows for the mobility a Deinonychus can do massive burst damage and still fad away from the enemy so they can't attack so the lower HP and lower AC matter less because you're not getting return attacks except for 1 AoO a round.
Reading the thread title, I was sure that you would be pointing out that there was never any such thing as a brontosaurus; the so-called "Brontosaurus skeleton" was just an Apatosaurus skeleton with the wrong head.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Oh, if we're going to go pedantic, there's pretty much no hope. Half of the creatures aren't technically even dinosaurs, and the ones listed are from a crazy wide spread of eras with no consideration for functioning ecosystems or anything.
But let's not be so quick to dismiss the poor brontosaursu. First of all, it is an awesome name, while "apatosaurus" is objectively lame. But, also: The Brontosaurus Is Back:
Decades after scientists decided that the famed dinosaur never actually existed, new research says the opposite
[...] It turns out the original Apatosaurus and Brontosaurus fossils appear different enough to belong to separate groups after all. "Generally, Brontosaurus can be distinguished from Apatosaurus most easily by its neck, which is higher and less wide," says lead study author Emanuel Tschopp, a vertebrate paleontologist at the New University of Lisbon in Portugal. "So although both are very massive and robust animals, Apatosaurus is even more extreme than Brontosaurus."
... although, I'm going to have to take issue with "more extreme" — some "deceptive lizard" is never more extreme than Noble Thunder Lizard, no matter the size.
They should have a book just for dinos and prehistoric stuff lol or maybe we can have Homebrew utahraptor wihich is basically the dire wolf to the Deinonychus's common wolf
If your 8th level perhaps a giant eagle might work, except just be a scaly giant pteradon. There aren't a whole lot of beasts that are obviously great choices for wildshape, but fear not, barring a new edition more creatures will be released and already some crazy 'beasts' are out there (crag cats Im look at you!) An alternative is (needing explicit dm permission) begin statting up giant versions of creatures that already exist such as dire deinonychus or velociraptor, or the alternative 'cave' ie reduced size and statistics larger dinosaurs. There is an example of this in TotYP where a giant crab is advanced to a higher CR and many other creatures are scaled down with an addhoc adjustment, but it is most assuredly up to the DM to determine if he thinks druids should be able to pretty much write their own statistics for wildshape.
In relation to this topic of "worthwhile equivalents to the Dire Wolf"; ImEberron: Rising from the Last War has brought us the Clawfoot. It answers some of the problems that folks had with the Deinonychus, such as the lack of Pack Tactics, while keeping the damage output the same. Sure, the Clawfoot has lower HP than the Deinonychus and the Dire Wolf, but when you are working as part of a team, you get to make at least 3 attacks that deal 1d8+3 damage at ADVANTAGE. 4 attacks if Pounce works. And if Pounce works,all your friends that were helping you get advantage through pack tactics get advantage too. A good portion of the power that Wild Shapes like Dire Wolf, Deinonychus, and Clawfoot have is how they function with a group. On their own, they aren't the best options, but when you are working with your frontliner buddies (fighters, barbarians, monks, Paladins, etc) that is where you can become scary. I mean, In most fights, most creatures that are getting clobbered by multiple assailants probably aren't thinking much with the logic part of their brain as they are suddenly bleeding from a bunch of new holes and will probably just take swings at whatever looks like the biggest and most obvious threat. The Fighter/Paladin in the heavy armor that just about cleaved off your head would more than likely be targeted over the wierd bipedal reptile or oversized doggo that keeps nipping at your ankles.
Apologies for necro-post but actually if we are going to be all sciency about it, D&D neutered T-Rex movement speed even without running. Per the below research report released in July 2017, T-Rex speed-walked at 12mph.
1 mile= 5,280 feet
12 mph= 63,360 feet per hour
1 Round is 6 seconds meaning there are 10 rounds per minute and 600 rounds per hour. Dividing 63,360 feet traveled in an hour by 600 rounds gives us a movement speed of 105.6 ft / round. His movement speed should actually be 100' per round.
Sadly, there are no Monster Manual or Volo's Guide dinosaurs which hold a candle to the Dire Wolf as a CR 1 druid shift option. It's awesome that Deinonychus gets 3× multiattack, but the damage output is low and at 30% fewer hitpoints and lower AC, not so great (plus, you loose perception, stealth, and pack tactics).
So, high hopes for Beasts of the Jungle Rot announced as AL-legal options — but, ugh. The Dilophosaurus gives you a ranged poison spit, but with low DC and the same low HP, low AC drawbacks vs Dire Wolf. And Troodon keeps pack tactics, at least, but same other drawbacks and lower strength means lower to hit and less damage.
And there's no ½ CR dinosaurs at all, so no bones thrown to Land druids.
I'm not asking for better than the Dire Wolf, but it'd be nice to have a thematically awesome equivalent. Sure, many DMs will let you use a different creature's stats and call it a dinosaur, but in AL play, you never know.
I too am looking forward to any book that adds more Beasts. I want more variety and styles. I wish 5e had kept the idea of "templates" from 3rd edition. I liked having "it's an Orc Skeleton" or a "Gnoll Zombie" as a template you added onto a base creature.
I liked how Beasts had "Dire" and "Giant" as templates to add on.
I also want more "bug" type. It might be just me but I've watch A LOT of "Bug Wars" on Youtube and I really want to play more insect/arachnid forms!
Once you hit CR:2 you can only be Large or Huge! It restricts environments the power is useful in
I disagree with on yon the Deinonychus vs Dire Wolf.
I think they actually stack up pretty well.
Deinonychus has 2 less points of strength, 10 less HP, 1 less AC, no Training in Stealth, no Keen Hearing and Smell, and no Pack Tactics.
Of these things I think Pack Tactics is the biggest buff the Dire Wolf has as over Deinonychus.
Deinonychus has Multiattack (3 attacks!) and Pounce.
The Dire Wolf throws everything into a single attack. Pack Tactics means you almost always have Adv on the attack roll and once you hit they make a DC:13 check or are knocked prone.
The Deinonychus is a Medium sized creature, this can be very important as terrain will be less of an issue as Medium.
IF theDeinonychus is 20 feet away from the enemy moves 20 feet (straight line) and initiates a Multi-Attack: 2 claws and a bite.
IF either of the claw attacks hit the enemy makes a DC:12 check or is knocked prone... all subsequent attacks by the Deinonychus now have Advantage.
Read Pounce again: "Pounce. If the deinonychus moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature and then hits it with a claw attack on the same turn, that target must succeed on a DC 12 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. If the target is prone, the deinonychus can make one bite attack against it as a bonus action."
IF an enemy is prone the Deinonychus can make a bite attack as a Bonus Action.
This means the Deinonychus can attack 4 times in a turn and up to 3 of those attacks can be at Adv. That's a possible 1d8+2 * 4! (average 26 if all hits) vs the Dire Wolf's average of 10 damage. ( average of 2d6+3)
as a Deinonychus if you hit you can choose to take an AoO from a prone enemy (they have DisAdv, to then move 20 feet away). Now you can rinse and repeat this over and over and over again. IF you also take Mobility as a Feat your now moving 50ft a round and don't take that AoO.
You are right the Deinonychus is a glass cannon vs the Dire Wolf. In a stand up fight you want to be a Dire Wolf standing next to the Fighter. In terrain that allows for the mobility a Deinonychus can do massive burst damage and still fad away from the enemy so they can't attack so the lower HP and lower AC matter less because you're not getting return attacks except for 1 AoO a round.
Reading the thread title, I was sure that you would be pointing out that there was never any such thing as a brontosaurus; the so-called "Brontosaurus skeleton" was just an Apatosaurus skeleton with the wrong head.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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In a world with Owlbears, my childhood dreams can come true and I can ride a brontosaurus!
Oh, if we're going to go pedantic, there's pretty much no hope. Half of the creatures aren't technically even dinosaurs, and the ones listed are from a crazy wide spread of eras with no consideration for functioning ecosystems or anything.
But let's not be so quick to dismiss the poor brontosaursu. First of all, it is an awesome name, while "apatosaurus" is objectively lame. But, also: The Brontosaurus Is Back:
... although, I'm going to have to take issue with "more extreme" — some "deceptive lizard" is never more extreme than Noble Thunder Lizard, no matter the size.
Anyone want to explain how T Rex got a speed of 50' when he cannot run 😉
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DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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I think it's also fair to assume that T-rexes are much more intimidating when they can run
~ Bee
Iseat tahwia so eanmtloop ol cip oo rises tosa em, blessing op too sethciam oo. So loyalty ee tlet ca thlep sem un measured ipo hwul thlup
Not being able to run means it can't use the Dash action. It still would have a decent lands speed Because it's stride is quite long.
They should have a book just for dinos and prehistoric stuff lol or maybe we can have Homebrew utahraptor wihich is basically the dire wolf to the Deinonychus's common wolf
If your 8th level perhaps a giant eagle might work, except just be a scaly giant pteradon. There aren't a whole lot of beasts that are obviously great choices for wildshape, but fear not, barring a new edition more creatures will be released and already some crazy 'beasts' are out there (crag cats Im look at you!) An alternative is (needing explicit dm permission) begin statting up giant versions of creatures that already exist such as dire deinonychus or velociraptor, or the alternative 'cave' ie reduced size and statistics larger dinosaurs. There is an example of this in TotYP where a giant crab is advanced to a higher CR and many other creatures are scaled down with an addhoc adjustment, but it is most assuredly up to the DM to determine if he thinks druids should be able to pretty much write their own statistics for wildshape.
In relation to this topic of "worthwhile equivalents to the Dire Wolf"; ImEberron: Rising from the Last War has brought us the Clawfoot. It answers some of the problems that folks had with the Deinonychus, such as the lack of Pack Tactics, while keeping the damage output the same. Sure, the Clawfoot has lower HP than the Deinonychus and the Dire Wolf, but when you are working as part of a team, you get to make at least 3 attacks that deal 1d8+3 damage at ADVANTAGE. 4 attacks if Pounce works. And if Pounce works,all your friends that were helping you get advantage through pack tactics get advantage too. A good portion of the power that Wild Shapes like Dire Wolf, Deinonychus, and Clawfoot have is how they function with a group. On their own, they aren't the best options, but when you are working with your frontliner buddies (fighters, barbarians, monks, Paladins, etc) that is where you can become scary. I mean, In most fights, most creatures that are getting clobbered by multiple assailants probably aren't thinking much with the logic part of their brain as they are suddenly bleeding from a bunch of new holes and will probably just take swings at whatever looks like the biggest and most obvious threat. The Fighter/Paladin in the heavy armor that just about cleaved off your head would more than likely be targeted over the wierd bipedal reptile or oversized doggo that keeps nipping at your ankles.
To quote an unknown meme-er
"He make an big steppy"
The T-Rex in Jurassic Park ran just fine. :)
Apologies for necro-post but actually if we are going to be all sciency about it, D&D neutered T-Rex movement speed even without running. Per the below research report released in July 2017, T-Rex speed-walked at 12mph.
1 mile= 5,280 feet
12 mph= 63,360 feet per hour
1 Round is 6 seconds meaning there are 10 rounds per minute and 600 rounds per hour. Dividing 63,360 feet traveled in an hour by 600 rounds gives us a movement speed of 105.6 ft / round. His movement speed should actually be 100' per round.
https://peerj.com/articles/3420/
A base speed of 50 ft per round with the dash action gives a creature 100' per round of running speed.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.