I like the idea of looking beyond the typical Beasts/Animals that might be typical found in our area, and using the stats of some of the other creatures with a different animal... although as mentioned it gets tricky with the types of creatures that exist on this world. Its really the world we are in which we have not seen a large variety of beasts, but I supposed once I get Flight for shape shifting I scout around on my free time to look for other Beasts that might fit more appropriately and re-flavor them to a beast that fits the game. I still kind of prefer the idea of increasing the CR rating of a typical Beast, assuming I am a tougher version of the same creature... but as it was suggested previously, creating a table ahead of time for approval is probably the best way to get my DM onboard.
I like the idea of a warlord's private Zoo collection or have the DM accept "I read about the animal" to see it. but I get the impression the DM will not like either ideas. Still worth tossing out at them.
I think the reason that HeironymusZot keeps referencing Rhino's and Dino's, is because they are just examples of beast/animals that I stated do not exist in this world/campaign. (No Dino's and no Sub-saharan type beasts like Lions, Tigers, Rhino's or Elephants). He was suggesting using a different more common animal from a different region that might fit one of these stat blocks.
And yes, the idea is to not rely elemental shapeshifting even at higher levels, but if it comes down to it, then this is what will happen in the future. Was just looking for ideas of putting other Beast ideas into my repertoire and still remain relevant in the event that combat occurs.
Also.. was not complaining, but was asking for thoughts and opinions. I am more than aware that post CR 2, the number of beasts available drops considerably. The game I am playing in seems to have a lot of homebrew aspects tossed into the game for class abilities with other PC's, and since this doesn't seem incredibly ground breaking, I was asking for feedback on how to approach it.
One more reminder: a druid (even a moon druid) is a full caster that has access to one of the better spell lists in the game. As your wild shapes are waiting in power, you could be relying on those spells more and more.
If your group is fine with it, there are tables in the DMG for creating monsters of various CR creatures. Starting with another beast and modifying it using those tables is probably the best bet to change the CR of a monster.
And as a final note, I am somewhat dismissive of this problem for a couple of reasons. Most importantly, I think that shortcomings of classes are design goals not design problems. Secondarily, beasts just don’t pose much of a threat compared to PCs, so necessarily, there will be fewer options at higher CRs, but that again, is not a design problem. “Fixing” design goals of the system isn’t something I’m really interested in. Sure it isn’t an infallible system, but it also isn’t a failing of the system to not have every option identical in “power.”
I've seen dinosaurs and some of the other creatures brought up several times before when it comes to wild shape and even more when it comes to things like beast companions and the like. There just seems to be a major fascination with them in general and people get really hooked on some of their mechanics but I've never seen anything entirely special about them.
I'd personally be far more afraid of things like the MoorBounders and their bigger brothers with the blade like fur that are in the Wildemount book myself. So I wondered if it was just the way I was reading things compared to others. Though I'm no stranger of being somewhat on the outs with popular opinion about various classes and features and the actual usefulness or value of them either.
And Wolf, You kind of hit it on the head. There is a balance but it's not because things are identical. Caster wizards tend to have to take several levels to build into their power but once they do they are a force to be dealt with. Moon Druids get around that to a fair extent with their early shape changing advancements but they are very front loaded into that period when the caster druids are fairly weak not just in comparison to the moon druids but kind of in general. And that's how they are balanced out. Where as the Moon Druid once they get into those caster levels. They don't have some of the fancy additions their caster counterparts have but they are still fairly potent because the spell side has come into it's own quite a bit anyway.
I never actually mentioned rhinos and dinos. I agreed with someone that reskinning stat blocks from banned forms is a good solution. Other threads may be dinosaur obsessed, but this one is not. It was mentioned as a restriction by the OP and then used as part of a solution by one poster.
WolfofBees if you have such unwavering faith in the balance of 5e's system and are so closed off to homebrew then why post in a thread by someone looking for alternatives in a campaign that is homebrew friendly.
I don't have any patience for this white knight stance that decrees everything in 5e was done on purpose and everything balances the way WotC intended. Design teams are not super computers. They make imperfect decisions that compound upon each other. You're telling me the Moon Druid being over-powered at level 2 but having near useless animal forms at high levels is built just as intended? That it couldn't be done better?
However you feel about the matter, fine. But to start decreeing as such in a thread about finding homebrew solutions is the behavior of a troll.
No need to go into namecalling, HeironymusZot. I am not trolling you when I express my thoughts on this topic, which, by the way, included reskinning creatures way back in post#8 of this very thread, and in my last post offered a suggestion as to how I would adjust the CR of a monster. I don’t think you’ve been understanding what I’ve said, though. I don’t claim the game is perfectly balanced or that the system doesn’t have flaws. I just again point out that wildshape has shortcomings, and those shortcomings are actually good, in my opinion, for the game — even if they make you feel less powerful in beast form at level 9 than at level 2.
Don’t get me wrong, having more options than the few provided at CR 3 might not be a bad thing, but having more powerful options would be. And again, you’ll have trouble convincing me that having a limited selection is really a problem in a game where class spell lists exist.
So I'm sure I'm very late to the party (and it probably has even been addressed) but could you use anything like the Giant scorpion or Giant snapping turtle, or are those out due to the base restrictions of aquatic/ sub sahara?
Giant Scorpion I think I can make a loophole with the Giant Insect spell, conjuring a Giant Scorpion.. but I doubt Giant Snapping Turtle has a place in the world with as little aquatic scenarios, but ya never know. The issue is the DM going out of the way to introduce creatures that don't typically fit in the world/campaign setting.
I guess in the end, we'll see how the DM runs things level 9+. I've got two more levels before hitting Druid 9 where new Beasts diminish.
Giant Scorpion I think I can make a loophole with the Giant Insect spell, conjuring a Giant Scorpion.. but I doubt Giant Snapping Turtle has a place in the world with as little aquatic scenarios, but ya never know. The issue is the DM going out of the way to introduce creatures that don't typically fit in the world/campaign setting.
I guess in the end, we'll see how the DM runs things level 9+. I've got two more levels before hitting Druid 9 where new Beasts diminish.
Best of luck with it then. The Giant Scorpion is def one of the best goto forms with 3 atks. I like the snapping turtle for its tankiness if ya can get it.
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Thanks for the response guys.
I like the idea of looking beyond the typical Beasts/Animals that might be typical found in our area, and using the stats of some of the other creatures with a different animal... although as mentioned it gets tricky with the types of creatures that exist on this world. Its really the world we are in which we have not seen a large variety of beasts, but I supposed once I get Flight for shape shifting I scout around on my free time to look for other Beasts that might fit more appropriately and re-flavor them to a beast that fits the game. I still kind of prefer the idea of increasing the CR rating of a typical Beast, assuming I am a tougher version of the same creature... but as it was suggested previously, creating a table ahead of time for approval is probably the best way to get my DM onboard.
I like the idea of a warlord's private Zoo collection or have the DM accept "I read about the animal" to see it. but I get the impression the DM will not like either ideas. Still worth tossing out at them.
I think the reason that HeironymusZot keeps referencing Rhino's and Dino's, is because they are just examples of beast/animals that I stated do not exist in this world/campaign. (No Dino's and no Sub-saharan type beasts like Lions, Tigers, Rhino's or Elephants). He was suggesting using a different more common animal from a different region that might fit one of these stat blocks.
And yes, the idea is to not rely elemental shapeshifting even at higher levels, but if it comes down to it, then this is what will happen in the future. Was just looking for ideas of putting other Beast ideas into my repertoire and still remain relevant in the event that combat occurs.
Also.. was not complaining, but was asking for thoughts and opinions. I am more than aware that post CR 2, the number of beasts available drops considerably. The game I am playing in seems to have a lot of homebrew aspects tossed into the game for class abilities with other PC's, and since this doesn't seem incredibly ground breaking, I was asking for feedback on how to approach it.
One more reminder: a druid (even a moon druid) is a full caster that has access to one of the better spell lists in the game. As your wild shapes are waiting in power, you could be relying on those spells more and more.
If your group is fine with it, there are tables in the DMG for creating monsters of various CR creatures. Starting with another beast and modifying it using those tables is probably the best bet to change the CR of a monster.
And as a final note, I am somewhat dismissive of this problem for a couple of reasons. Most importantly, I think that shortcomings of classes are design goals not design problems. Secondarily, beasts just don’t pose much of a threat compared to PCs, so necessarily, there will be fewer options at higher CRs, but that again, is not a design problem. “Fixing” design goals of the system isn’t something I’m really interested in. Sure it isn’t an infallible system, but it also isn’t a failing of the system to not have every option identical in “power.”
I've seen dinosaurs and some of the other creatures brought up several times before when it comes to wild shape and even more when it comes to things like beast companions and the like. There just seems to be a major fascination with them in general and people get really hooked on some of their mechanics but I've never seen anything entirely special about them.
I'd personally be far more afraid of things like the MoorBounders and their bigger brothers with the blade like fur that are in the Wildemount book myself. So I wondered if it was just the way I was reading things compared to others. Though I'm no stranger of being somewhat on the outs with popular opinion about various classes and features and the actual usefulness or value of them either.
And Wolf, You kind of hit it on the head. There is a balance but it's not because things are identical. Caster wizards tend to have to take several levels to build into their power but once they do they are a force to be dealt with. Moon Druids get around that to a fair extent with their early shape changing advancements but they are very front loaded into that period when the caster druids are fairly weak not just in comparison to the moon druids but kind of in general. And that's how they are balanced out. Where as the Moon Druid once they get into those caster levels. They don't have some of the fancy additions their caster counterparts have but they are still fairly potent because the spell side has come into it's own quite a bit anyway.
I never actually mentioned rhinos and dinos. I agreed with someone that reskinning stat blocks from banned forms is a good solution. Other threads may be dinosaur obsessed, but this one is not. It was mentioned as a restriction by the OP and then used as part of a solution by one poster.
WolfofBees if you have such unwavering faith in the balance of 5e's system and are so closed off to homebrew then why post in a thread by someone looking for alternatives in a campaign that is homebrew friendly.
I don't have any patience for this white knight stance that decrees everything in 5e was done on purpose and everything balances the way WotC intended. Design teams are not super computers. They make imperfect decisions that compound upon each other. You're telling me the Moon Druid being over-powered at level 2 but having near useless animal forms at high levels is built just as intended? That it couldn't be done better?
However you feel about the matter, fine. But to start decreeing as such in a thread about finding homebrew solutions is the behavior of a troll.
No need to go into namecalling, HeironymusZot. I am not trolling you when I express my thoughts on this topic, which, by the way, included reskinning creatures way back in post#8 of this very thread, and in my last post offered a suggestion as to how I would adjust the CR of a monster. I don’t think you’ve been understanding what I’ve said, though. I don’t claim the game is perfectly balanced or that the system doesn’t have flaws. I just again point out that wildshape has shortcomings, and those shortcomings are actually good, in my opinion, for the game — even if they make you feel less powerful in beast form at level 9 than at level 2.
Don’t get me wrong, having more options than the few provided at CR 3 might not be a bad thing, but having more powerful options would be. And again, you’ll have trouble convincing me that having a limited selection is really a problem in a game where class spell lists exist.
So I'm sure I'm very late to the party (and it probably has even been addressed) but could you use anything like the Giant scorpion or Giant snapping turtle, or are those out due to the base restrictions of aquatic/ sub sahara?
Giant Scorpion I think I can make a loophole with the Giant Insect spell, conjuring a Giant Scorpion.. but I doubt Giant Snapping Turtle has a place in the world with as little aquatic scenarios, but ya never know. The issue is the DM going out of the way to introduce creatures that don't typically fit in the world/campaign setting.
I guess in the end, we'll see how the DM runs things level 9+. I've got two more levels before hitting Druid 9 where new Beasts diminish.
Best of luck with it then. The Giant Scorpion is def one of the best goto forms with 3 atks. I like the snapping turtle for its tankiness if ya can get it.